TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS
DATE: 29 JULY 1997
NAME: THANDI MAVUSO
CHAIRPERSON: We shall request our very last witness for the day to come before us. That will be Mrs Mavuso. We do apologise that you had to stay for so long before coming forward to give your evidence. We would like to remind you about the Mayor's invitation and also after Thandi we will still have that cultural event, whatever form it takes. So we will be happy if people can be patient. We request you to stand up so that you can make an oath and raise your right hand.
SARAFINA THANDI MAVUSO: (Duly sworn in, states).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I will request you to start and explain your whole story and explain who you are.
MRS MAVUSO: I am Sarafina Thandi Mavuso. I live in Thokoza. I run a pre-school, a day centre, that is the job that I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Please continue to the Commissioners and relate the story that you have come here for.
MRS MAVUSO: The story I have come to relate here, it is a long story. It starts from 1990 when the violence erupted in Thokoza. My husband is a Priest. He is the one who use to bury the children who had been killed during the violence. He had the gangster, we did not know that this man was a gangster leader, but he also had his own gang at night, but in 1992 we really began to realise that he was involved with gangsters. They started shooting these children and my children had run away. In 1993 on the 15th of January our children were no longer living in their homes, because he started killing boys. He said he did not want boys who were wearing takkies, they are bringing crime in our area and he said the Law gave him authority to kill the children. Indeed, it does seem like he was given authority to kill the children, because he use to kill a lot of children and nothing happened to him and he use to beat up children. He would injure these children and wherever there had been children, where there had been death or anything in the family, the families would suffer for that. That is when we realised that this Baba was not a proper Priest.
In 1992 they use to burn the houses of children where, who were involved in ANC activities. We, somebody also came to warn us, by a SACP, that man said to me please do not sleep here in this home, your house will be burnt and, indeed, when I came back from work at half one I realised that my husband had hired a car, he phoned my employer during the day. I use to work at Rooikop in the offices before I started a day centre. Indeed, my employer did allow us to go and live in the yard there, because they knew my husband to be a Priest and when I arrived home my husband had hired a car and our neighbours told us that, really, it was a good thing you did. These boys came late at night, they kicked the doors and somebody said, no, then one other person said there are no people here, but all those things we assumed that had happened, because violence was strong in Thokoza.
We were not even sure who this kind of violence was targeted to, but my husband, in the 90's, we realised that he was the wrong person even though he was involved in church activities, was a cruel person. At the end of 1992, because I was no longer working I started a day care centre. When I was at home, I think, I can remember it was in April, I was going to the creche teachers meetings, he came out of this yard and said please, Mama Vuso, are you also going to boycott my tuckshop and I said to him, why should I boycott your tuckshop, because he said the boys around here say I am the one who killed people and therefore people must boycott my shop. I said, Baba Khumalo, was that we do not get informed properly. I thought I, as a person, as a God's person, he will be touched and realise that as a God person he should not be involved in this cruel activities. Why should he be boycotted, but it was not like that.
And then he therefore spotted me and I eventually told him that I will join what the community is doing although nobody has formally informed me of this activity. And Baba Khumalo spotted all of this in December 1992. One of the child's houses was burnt, Spongile, in our neighbourhood's child was burned. The man from next door screamed and said Spider's child is burning and Mama Vuso went to this place. During the day there was a young boy who said, who was sent to Mama Vuso that a letter was written to me and Baba Mavuso said, God has written in his Book, but I said that things got a bit quiet and we were greeting each other when I was going to day care centre and he said in January we had a camp in Eden Park. That is when we realised that we are being harassed.
As we came back from all these meetings they would stop our combi, they would get off, they would get everybody off the combi and they would harass us, they would take our Bibles and shake them and all the documents will fall and they would follow us up until we arrive to our section, but they would not come inside the house. All those things we use to just give them, hand them over to God, that God will look after us, but there were soldiers who use to stay in his house. There were bags that were used there to protect this house, the kind of bags that they use to use in councillors' houses around and this and this things. But we did not know why those bullet proof kind of bags were put all around his house.
On the 15th of January we were still asleep. That is something I think I do have a belief in. I was just giving you a background to this whole incident. We were asleep at home and my grandchild, Thumelo, was six years old then and her mother had not managed to come and fetch her. All my other children were no longer living at home. It was only me and my husband and Thumelo. I think at around about 20 to 12 or 25 to 12 I was fast asleep, but I heard my husband waking myself, wake up, we are being attacked. I said, my God, who could possibly attack. I said please just get up. Our house is burning and my daughter's room was burning and this, I think, I did see these people who attacked us.
On all those things I think God gave me the wisdom to be like intelligent. My husband said just take the children and run away. I took off my gown and I sort of put it off and took it off and put on my clothes, off, and put them down. I ended up being naked. At that stage, I think, I had lost my mind. I was a bit confused. There were AK47's explosions all over. The whole area was dark. We just could only hear these AK47's and Thokoza was going to be an attack. They use to switch off the lights a day before they attacked. I said we are going to be attacked on Friday. On Thursday night the lights, the whole, lights in the whole township will go off then we would know that on that particular day certain families would be attacked.
On that night the section was very dark at night and nobody was helping us. The only thing we could hear was the sound of an AK47. After my husband had pulled me, pulled us out of the room I was standing between the window and so, there was a headboard, a huge headboard and I was just confused at that stage. I could hear the bullets zooming past me and fell onto the end of the bed and bedroom was started burning. And my husband said, please, I told you get out of this house, you are going to burn inside. The kitchen is not burning, I have poured water all over. When I, when I got out I locked the room. During that time the guns quiet. So suddenly there was just silence, but when he came back I lost the key, I could not find the key, because God is very trustworthy.
I saw my, I regained my mind and I found the key and I opened. I said, but now why are you locking. We got out with the keys and went to the kitchen. As we were in the cupboards he said, please open the door. He wanted to make sure that whoever came inside will grab him and grab the gun and he opened the door. He opened the door and he managed to get out, but there was nobody outside. I was still holding my child. The child saw the flame coming through the kitchen and this child ran outside. When this child just stepped a few steps in the kitchen they hit this kid on the arm and said, granny, they have shot me. The bicep was just hanging off this child's arm. Then I realised that there was no need that I will be saving my child, because I had already saved this child. Then they shot this kid and then kept quiet and I got out.
When I got out I just took a few steps and I heard a bullet coming through my leg. I have got a big hole. I fell there and an AK bullet got out and hit right on the soil and dug on the soil. So, because I was bleeding I lost consciousness and Nana got out of my arm and went around the house, but the hole, that this child knew and saw all these men who are attacking us. They saw he had a huge head and that he, now he says he wants to be a soldier, he wants to go and shoot Baba Khumalo, because he saw him on that incident. And my husband pulled me out behind the outside toilet and he went to the soldiers, he went straight to the soldiers and the soldiers were staying in this house. He said, please, come and see what this man has done to you. I know you are looking after, my house has been burnt, the child, my child, a child has been also killed and my wife has been killed, but I was not killed. Also, the child had managed to escape, was not shot and the soldier did come.
During that time in Thokoza there was no car moving around after seven. There was no ambulance, there were only police after seven. The soldiers came and phoned and came to witness what was happening and one of the soldiers said, damn it. One of the soldiers said, damn, we are looking after this guy and yet he is going around shooting people. That I heard with my own ears when one of these soldiers said that. And then I pulled myself, I dragged myself while they were phoning for the soldiers, ambulance, because there are no ambulances from outside who use to come there, but unfortunately one of the guards who were working from the hospital, he heard when they were following the ambulance, this boy who was working at the hospital, brought his car to come and fetch us.
They could not find me, because I had been dragged and fell over the fence and went to the neighbours. I do not know if, but even those this guy was on the opposite party, but on that day he accepted me, assisted me. He opened the door for men and I got into his house. That is when the soldiers found me after I had been shot. My husband did see when I was shot, because I was shot on my leg, foot, on my thigh and on my feet. My husband did see that bullet, because he just saw this fire explosion or fire sparks, but through God's grace my husband was not shot. He got a bucket of water and poured on the soil. As I was lying down there I could hear the gun sounds again. It was after we had taken the unit, we just put on the cupboard in the kitchen. The whole cupboard, even today, you can see that it was just fortunate that somebody managed to survive.
The only person I did see was one boy who jumped through the fence and ran passed me. Through God's grace this guy did not kick me, did not finis me off. He just ran past me, but I do know this boy and he ran past me and these people were scared off by a drunkard who started shouting, saying they are finishing off Mavuso's house. We could even hear when they were running away back to the car that they were driving in. It was a combi and that is how I was taken through to Natal Hospital where I was kept the whole of Saturday morning and my husband had been taken away by the police. One of those White policeman was Lategan. We use to see them at the house of this man. They use to get food there and be supplied with drinks. That is the guy who took my husband to Newnie Park, but by God's grace, at Newnie Park they use to kill people, but they did not kill my husband there.
They just kept him there the whole, the Sunday. He said may I please go and see my wife in hospital. They took him and brought him to the hospital. They saw me, because I had been admitted at the hospital. They said put down a statement. I said why should I write down the statement, why do you not take out your gun and finish me off, because I do know you are going to tell so and so to come and finish me off like he has killed so many other children at the hospital and finished them off. Lategan begged me to write a statement. I refused. I said go and tell this gentleman that I am in this hospital, in this ward to come and finish me off, but that Sunday afternoon, after Saturday in Natal Hospital was very full of a lot of people and there was one sister who called Baba Mavuso.
Please, she said I am not chasing away your wife, but the situation it is very precarious. I am not safe here, I have taken your wife and hidden her in another room, because there were lots of people who were hanging on the walls. What are you in Thokoza, what is your position in Thokoza. Baba Mavuso said I am a Priest. Maybe many people are surprised that there have been so many people who have been killed by Boers, there are many people who are killed, but today it is my situation. Maybe that is why many children come, young people to some, see my family and we were card carrying members of the ANC and our husband was very active. He use to smuggle the card of the ANC to hostel, to the very people who had come to attack us on that night.
So one of the boys who died from Balfour was pointed out by a man who is working in Parliament of this other party now. That guy was killed. He use to come and say, Baba Mavuso, let us go to hostel. I want to go and give them the card, but if you go to the hostel they will not, the suspicion is not aroused and Dr Ledwaba went to Babu Mavuso that Mr Mavuso, please may we take your wife to a private hospital. Babu Mavuso said, yes, I do not have money, because we do not have medical aid. And Babu, this doctor said Babu Mavuso, it cannot work out like that, but on Monday at around ten Dr Ledwaba came with my husband. I was brought to Johannesburg hospital. During that time it was still a private hospital, in 1993, But what, all what happened in our lives, we were very happy.
In 1994 to see the birth of democracy and the ANC winning although we were still very sore and hardened, because even the ANC branch did not come to see us when this incident happened to us. They did not even send us a card and when I came out of the hospital we had no place to stay. My children were scared of us and the Coloured people in Eden Park took care of us. That is why I said there is a breadwinner of our home since my, since the 1992 my husband was isolated and they also cut off his maintenance, because they said he was a communist, because he was associated with ANC and I was the breadwinner who had been injured.
While I was still in Eden Park and I still had gauze on my thighs, they started organising children, because that was the only way we could survive. I asked the librarian at Eden Park so that I could, that actually if they could bring children for story telling maybe I, some of these parents if they see that I am still committed to look after the children, they would give me peace and space, they will give us something to eat. That is how I, we started, we were very, very isolated by all the Ministers of the Thokoza, because, but as a Minister he was not supposed to be involved in the politics, but so many other things we tried to avoid him. These kids use to come to ask him to bury their children, the youth who had been killed. During that time the Priests wanted the qualified Priest. Maybe there were only about two Ministers and one of them Ndlovu, who also died who were qualified to officiate on funerals. He use to produce these books. That is why we got involved in the activities of the ANC and we were shot, but we would like to thank God that the blood of many children watered the tree of freedom. That we realised that in the long term many families will realise what this man was doing.
They were asking why were you not, as a man, shot, but they shot the woman. They were saying you know who shot this woman, but we thank God, because at the end of the day He told us, we told them who were responsible in this incident in shooting, but I only saw them as I was passing through the passage to the neighbours, but I really also would like to thank the TRC for requesting me to come here as an isolated woman. Even the ANC today knew that I was a good speaker, because of many other activities I was involved in. I asked them not to elect me into any position, but my husband is just a Priest. If children in the community want testimonials and other things my husband does that, but as the breadwinner I am crippled, I am disabled, I am not able to run the pre-school. I have employed educated women to help me run this pre-school, because I myself am not in a position to do it, but I am isolated. At the end of the day all my aims and goals attending the university, by this time, where I could bridge the children are the foundation, we as women, who run the pre-school.
If the foundation is not correct, if children cannot get this foundation they are not even going to go any further in school and university. We have taken this as a bridging course. I am still using that small garage where by, but when I should be bridging those who are going to school, I should take these others outside to go and play.
INTERPRETER: Sorry, I am getting a bit mixed up with the court switching.
MRS MAVUSO: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: We would really like to thank you very much for all what you have related to us. I will just ask you a few questions and then I will give my fellow Commissioners an opportunity to ask you questions. You said, when you started you said U Baba, our husband was working for the church. Could you tell us what church is that?
MRS MAVUSO: That is the Church of Christ.
CHAIRPERSON: The way you have related this story, you said your suffering started, because you were involved in the struggle. Were you involved in this Priest fraternal that is involved in your community in East Rand, the fraternity of all the Priests who were involved in the struggle? It is fraternal.
MRS MAVUSO: Baba Mavuso was a member of the Minister's fraternal. He left this, because there were promises and there were other things that was happening in the township and it became a no-go area and many of these children lost their homes. They promised that they would help them and they were not helping them. At the end I remember there was a time that I had to take my creche food and give it to these young people, because when they saw food coming in they thought it was their food as the youth were suffering and eventually he left this Minister's fraternal. He spoke to Baba Velakazie. He said why are you promising these things to these youth and you are not doing them and these children will then blame us. They will think that we are accepting help on their behalf, but we are not passing it on to them. I think he only left some time late last year.
CHAIRPERSON: During that time when this happened, the statement we got was that this organisation was helping families and as people who were Priests and you were very much involved in these activities why were they not working with you? Could you relate it to us.
MRS MAVUSO: I really do not know why this happened. They did help this youth for some time, but it was only for a brief moment. I remember when I went to the social workers. They were giving them food parcels and they told Mama Vuso what are you coming to do. I said I am asking for food parcels. Social worker said, really, are you serious? I said did your house not burn, why are you not giving me blankets. It is this organisation that helped us was the Red Cross. They gave us blankets and they gave us some clothes. It was out of compassion of seeing many children who had been hurt. We only took two blankets and all the other clothing we gave it to the other people who really did not get any help whatsoever.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I can see the difficulty that you have got. I was trying to ask you to relate your own story, things that directly relate to you and not other people, things that affect your family, but besides going to Red Cross and social workers, this organisation was saying, was looking after the East Rand. How far do you think he helped you as the Mavuso family especially during that time when your house had been shot at and burnt?
MRS MAVUSO: No, that is the plain truth, that they did not help us. It was only time at, when we were at Eden Park that we got a letter that the Priests were coming and in that afternoon people who were living with us they had baked cakes, they had prepared anything. At the end of the day not even one Priest arrived there.
CHAIRPERSON: In your statement you have put some lists of people whom you think were involved in shooting you at your house and burning your house. As far as you are concerned, why do you think your house was identified for being shot at and being burnt? I mean, if you look back now could you be able to tell what caused that?
MRS MAVUSO: I think on that day it was because there were a number of youth who were killed. We were one of the seven homes that were shot at at that night, because most of the time they use to kill the boys, the young boys, but in other houses they would, at other times they would burn in other houses, but then when they attack any house they will come in and kidnap the young boys, but on that day there were seven houses that were burnt. I remember Mama Vuso at hospital, because the soldiers did not know the Thokoza area. There was a phone, that there was a house in Ndebele Street, at Sis Thandi Nkobeni's house, that house had also been burnt, it had also been shot at.
And Mama Vuso said I will take you to the place and she accompanied the soldiers to go and fetch all these people who had been injured, who had been attacked and injured, but not been attacked. On that day seven homes were attacked. It was not only our house that was attacked.
CHAIRPERSON: When you say Baba Mavuso took the soldiers to other peoples' houses, were you not real concerned that the community will really start to suspect you that you are collaborating with the soldiers and the police?
MRS MAVUSO: Well, we got the telephone and the soldiers were informed that at Nkubeni Street there was a house burnt and the soldiers will say we do not know that place, we do not know that place. He also does not know why he offered to help, but he did say this is next to my street and these soldiers said can you take us there and he took them there and whilst they were still there they also heard that at Nklabo there were four other houses that had been burnt. They also, this other ambulance also went to these other families. This time now it was no longer soldiers only. It was ambulance and nurses that we were all put, also brought other families, but we are the first families that were taken to Natalspruit Hospital.
CHAIRPERSON: If I really try to understand what you are saying, I think at that stage if you were seen helping any Government linked official, many people would not like to have anything to do with you and you, as people who were playing a very prominent role politically, I assume that you should have been more careful that that kind of assistance to the soldiers would get you into trouble, if you are seen helping any Government related officers or officials.
MRS MAVUSO: Yes, I think that has really made us isolated. Many Priests started isolating themselves from or isolating us. They, although they had no valid reason to isolate us. We only united with them when there were houses, when they got letters that evicted them. Then they realised that Mavuso was just helping people, but he is not on the other side, he is on our side. That is when they realised that.
CHAIRPERSON: In your statement you have written, you have spoken about another Bishop who was working with other people who were burning your house. Could you explain to us how did he get involved in the burning of this house?
MRS MAVUSO: As I have already said, Mama, that this man use to kill children and police would see him and the police were looking after him, but the day he came to shoot at our house, even now I would, I would like to, I would really like to see him coming to apologise to us. There are many things that he did. There are so many statements, we put the down, we wrote them down, but those statements were never taken any further and one of the days our statements were brought into civic centre, but nothing came out of this. This showed that he was working with the previous regime, that all the things, all the attempt we had tried, there was nothing that came of it, because one small child saw them and even my husband saw them.
And one of the soldiers said we are looking after his house. In the meantime he is the one who is organising the burning of other houses and some of the neighbours did see his combi was near our section. Many people saw it and ran away from it. There was nobody who could help us, but we have only had all those things after this incident had happened quite a long time ago and we had already been released at the hospital. I really would like to see him coming to ask for forgiveness. I forgave him on that very day, but I still want him to come out, because he was working with this organisation that did not want to see a Black person liberated here.
CHAIRPERSON: You said at the time when you were injured in your hand, you spent an amount of R37 000,00. Why were you being treated and for what reason?
MRS MAVUSO: The small child, when Dr Ledwaba transferred me to Johannesburg Hospital, at Johannesburg Hospital I spent R4 000,00. This other child spent R37 000,00 at the Union Hospital. We do have documentation to attest to what I am saying.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you pay that R37 000,00?
MRS MAVUSO: Yes, it was paid.
CHAIRPERSON: Who paid that?
MRS MAVUSO: Our elder son paid this amount. Even now there is no good communication. My husband is too involved in politics. Even my son use to complain that my father is involved in politics. Now I am getting all these expenses, because of him.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I will give this opportunity to other people to ask you questions. Joyce Seroke.
MS SEROKE: Mama Mavuso, I would like to know as to whether this child who had been shot, did this child get any counselling and how old was this child?
MRS MAVUSO: This child was six years old.
MS SEROKE: And did you try to get counselling for this child?
MRS MAVUSO: Round about 1994 my husband started working with the Lifeline counselling. They did try to get counselling for this child, but most of the time this child still keeps saying, granny, I will, one day when I grow up I will work and become a soldier, get a gun and kill these men and that is why, so he still has, full of this hatred and that is why I say he will kill this man who did this gross act.
MS SEROKE: And what is your husband doing?
MRS MAVUSO: He is still the Priest of the Church of Christ.
MS SEROKE: So, he still does have a congregation?
MRS MAVUSO: Yes, we rented a school. We are still not able to live in our house. We are living at my in-laws, but we are able to run our church services in the school. At Eden Park when I started staying there I got a lot of jobs. Now we are paying about R950,00 for a double garage and two rooms so that we can live there. Last year, in 1996, my husband said we must go back home rather than pay so much money. Indeed, we have gone back to Ndebele Section. That is, in fact, to my in-laws. That is where we are living with my in-laws, my father and other children.
MS SEROKE: What is happening to your house? You have not renovated your house?
MRS MAVUSO: They are busy renovating the houses in Thokoza, but things in Thokoza are still not in good condition. We still have the taxi problems and a bit of tension. In Thokoza they are renovating the houses and that those other people who moved into peoples' houses who were victims of the violence, they are now moving out, but they are breaking down the houses as they are moving out of them, but there is an organisation of the people who tried to return the refugees into, who were victims of the violence in their own houses, but this is not the ANC. This is just another new organisation, but I am not, I cannot remember exactly.
They have contacted other members of the community. The Government is prepared to renovate our houses and, but there is a third element that is involved. They go and vandalise these houses that the Government is trying to fix, but we can see there is progress on that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka.
MS SOOKA: Mama, I just have a few questions. Did you ever make a statement to the police about this matter?
MRS MAVUSO: Many a time.
MS SOOKA: And nothing has happened?
MRS MAVUSO: Nothing. Those people are still living in Thokoza. He is still working with a beautiful car. I remember one day I was going to buy the vegetables for the children and when I just came out of the fruit shop, he went in. He was shocked, I was shocked. He touched me, he said hello Mrs Mavuso. He did not know what to do. I gave him my hand, because I had fears and everything. He is still a beautiful, handsome man working with beautiful cars. Nobody has been arrested.
MS SOOKA: Well, let me just tell you that there, you know, I do know that the Attorney-General of Johannesburg was, in fact, investigating a number of cases around Bishop Khumalo and the Khumalo Gang. So, I think that the investigation, obviously, still is in progress. The TRC has also received a number of statements from people who have suffered a similar fate in Thokoza. So, an investigation is also taking place at that level. So, we hope that by the end of the term of the TRC we will be able to give you some more information.
MRS MAVUSO: Alright.
MS SOOKA: Thank you Mama.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your coming here. We hope that when you go back you will be safe and what you have already related here in this Commission will be a way of beginning to heal yourself and your family so that you can move on and have re-established the contacts with the community especially the Minister's fraternity. We think that they can assist you if they can find a way of getting in touch with them and turn to some negotiations to resolving this issue. Thank you.
MRS MAVUSO: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: We have, I would just like to - Zina, are you calling in the cultural group. Please call them in. While the cultural group is coming forward I would like to thank all of you, the interpreters, the media and, especially, women who really came forward to break the silence. This, for us as a Commission, has confirmed what we saw coming. When we started as a Commission it became clear that women needed a special platform which can make them feel safe and which they can, enable them to explore gender specific experiences of human rights violations and we are really honoured that here we have had women who had the courage of talking about the most difficult experiences for women.
I mean women have shared about rape, women have shared about torture, women have shared about psychological torture and, especially, the moral degration that they have experienced and I see this as a beginning of a long journey in this country whereby women in all categories will realise that besides being members of families or political parties, also they have a, and also that they have a double burden of knowing that as women, sometimes they will be treated differently. Today, in particular, we appreciated the submission from a woman who gave a perspective as a woman activist, but also as a person who experienced not only one, I mean we started with Deborah Mashoba, who shared, at length, about her life as a woman activist, her strengths also. She had the courage of saying she had to be creative and decided to grab the warden, beat her up so that she can get an opportunity of appearing before the Magistrate and they were smart enough not to yield to her strategy, but again, it shows us the courage that woman had. I mean, she did that knowing very well that her torturers could use that and actually beat her up to death.
And also you heard how Joyce Sikhakhane shared, at length, representing, giving a voice to all other whom we have heard by the end of the day. I mean she looked very critically even at her profession and all those voices have really been an encouragement. Even to other women who later on shared about their own specific experiences. So, we are grateful for all those women and we are hoping that the public at large, especially the media, that they will report women's stories with all sensitivity, but also just civil society at large, that they will not use women's stories against them. As some of them were saying that often if you are a woman whatever you do at the end of the day, you should expect that it is used against you. So that is our wish as a Commission, that people will co-operate with us.
And also what did not emerge here, but which we have in our stories is that often women are easily punished more than male counterparts. So we hope that women who have said whatever they have said here, they will not be doubly victimised for whatever reasons. We thank you very much.
Okay, we are told that the women have set up, on the first floor, where we are all invited by the Mayoress for, I should think it is a finger lunch or a finger cocktail, it is a cocktail, it is a reception. So, we will really invite all of you who are still here to go to the first floor where there is that cultural event which is combined with the cocktail reception which has been thrown by the Mayoress of the Greater Johannesburg, Mrs Nete Mogase. That is what the invitation is saying. So we invite you all to join us quickly to the first floor.