ON RESUMPTION ON 03.12.97 - DAY 8 

THE HEARING COMMENCES WITH PRAYER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Good morning. I welcome you all very warmly to this the 8th day of this hearing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

We just want to request that smokers will please note that this is in fact a non-smoking area, the whole place. Smoke outside, there are signs all over the place requesting that you shouldn't please smoke. You may - I was going to say pollute - but I won't say so. Please smoke outside of the buildings.

We call on Mr Jerry Richardson. Can I just ask the police if they will kindly ensure that the people singing outside, sing out of earshot. I don't want to be disturbed. Thank you. Is Mr Richard here, oh, yes.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairman, the prisoners have just arrived and there is a bit of a delay at the back.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR RICHARD: They have only just arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just remind you that we are in fact live on television. Don't do anything you wouldn't like your children to see you doing. Order please. Good morning Mr Richardson? Can we just ask, thank you very much, can we just ask one of you officers, if you could please sit behind the witness, so that our briefer can sit next to him, thank you very much.

We welcome you.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Mr Richard?

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Richardson, you started off on a good note. Is it correct that in the course, and over the last nearly 10 years, you have made many statements?

In fact on various occasions you have seen a previous Advocate, that is Mr B. Vally, myself, Mr Pigou of the Truth Commission, Liela Groenewald of the Commission, the Police, the media and you have given evidence to ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Please Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I will repeat. You have made various statements to a previous legal practitioner, Mr B. Vally, myself, Mr Piers Pigou, Liela Groenewald, the Police, the media, you have given evidence in the various court cases, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, you've had the benefit of all of us taking you through your various versions and you realise that there are some inconsistencies between them.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Nonetheless, you have been served with a subpoena in terms of the relevant legislation, requiring you to answer and give us information on various matters. The first of which is the formation and the purpose of the Mandela United Football Club. Would you please, very shortly, describe your association with the sport of football before you got involved in this Football Club?

Would you please give us a very short description, and I mean short, of your involvement in the sport of football before your involvement with the Mandela United Football Club, what did you do?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: It is quite erroneous, let me ...

MR RICHARD: I am in the Chair's hands on this request.

LENGTHY DISCUSSION BETWEEN CHAIRPERSON AND MR JERRY RICHARDSON - NO TRANSLATION

MR VALLY: Archbishop, I think we stand this matter down. We will convey to Mr Richardson's Attorney the implications of him refusing to give evidence here and we will also convey to Mr Richardson's Attorney our difficulty to try and arrange to get his family at such short notice.

If possible we can try and telephone them, but failing that, we warned this witness that he has been sworn in, he is under oath, it is a criminal offence to refuse to proceed in this matter.

MR RICHARD: May I reply Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: I believe my learned colleague's suggestion is appropriate. I would like a brief adjournment while I discuss matters with my client.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's take a 10 minute break.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION.

CHAIRPERSON: (No translation)

JERRY RICHARDSON: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. (No translation)

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: (continued) Mr Richardson, where we left off is that I had asked you the question would you please outline very briefly your association with the sport of soccer before you became the coach for the Mandela United Football Club?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Did you coach football teams and play soccer?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, some time towards the end of 1986, early 1987, you were approached by some youths. What did they request you to do?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: From where were these youths?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And what association did they have with any particular well-known individual, Mrs Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, this approach let you to meeting Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And what did you discuss with her at that first meeting?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And what did they ask you to do and what did they say to you?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And what was the discussion about?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, the soccer team was formed and an arrangement was arrived at whereby soccer boots, soccer jerseys, pants, socks and all the rest of the equipment were to be bought and the team came into existence, is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, from where did you recruit the people who would play the soccer? You heard the evidence of Mr Azar Cachalia earlier this week or last week, and he described the displaced and homeless and disrupted youth of the time. Aren't those the people you recruited to play as well as ordinary, proper soccer players?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right, now, the team came together. How many matches and where did they play matches?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right. You've heard the evidence of individuals, such as Gift Ntombeni and other members of your team. Do you agree that their evidence roughly describes why the soccer team was formed and what the soccer team did?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Please proceed, but shortly.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: You said you disagreed with some of his evidence and you wanted so say something further. Would you please say it?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: With the permission of the Chairperson, would you like to tell us the points?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right, Mr Richardson, that is not the question that I asked. Let's proceed. Right, now other than playing football, what other functions and duties did the football team perform? Did you go to funerals, did you guard the house, did you participate in the household management?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right, since you go there. You've heard the policeman, Dempsey's evidence, where he says that there was a book at the Mandela residence in which various complaints and other information was written, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, what would happen if a complaint was registered in that book, be it against a member of the team or against a member of the public?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And what would happen if you fetched somebody and brought him back to the residence?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And there was another incident that you described to me where somebody was found inside the house that was being built in Orlando. Very shortly, outline what happened.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: When it came to the question of what the football did or did not do, what was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's role in those decisions and management?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: In the in camera hearing there was a suggestion that the football team was kept to the back, minded its own business, respected Mrs Mandela's privacy and the opposite was also true. Have you any comment on that opposition?

In the Section 29, in camera hearing the impression that I gained was that a picture was being painted in terms of which the football team and the people living at the property respected Mrs Mandela's privacy, did not interfere in her house, didn't enter into the house and by the same token, Mrs Mandela largely let the team and the people living there, alone and got on with her own business. What comment do you have?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, what was your relationship with Mrs Mandela, was it you through which she spoke to the team or were there any other people who gave instructions?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, what political involvement did the team have at the time, was it part of the struggle or was it not part of the struggle, was it concerned only with football?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Did you ever become concerned with political issues as you say?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Sorry, I will try again. Later on, after you had become involved as the football coach, did you become more and more involved in political activities?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right, now the next point that we go on to was the story of sell-outs, impimpi's and the like. Did you have any involvement in such individuals or in their affairs?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: My question is along these lines. In that particular environment and at those times, if somebody was pointed out as a sell-out, what would happen?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Who would get those instructions, the Disciplinary Committee or some other authority?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right. Thank you. In April/May 1987 was there any change as a consequence of any instruction? Was the football team altered in any way?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Very well. Now, we will go onto the next point on the subpoena. Do you know somebody by the name of Morgan Bambisa, also known as Buchu?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Do you know anything about his murder?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And who are they?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, did you participate in any way in the killing or is this just in general information that you know from the township?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Did you participate in the act which resulted in his death, yes or no?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Were you there when he was killed?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Thank you, we will go on to the next point. The murder of Zola Makhula and one other during the year 1987, do you know anything about that?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: You have no knowledge, and I can pass to the next one? Thank you. Point (d), the murder of Susan Maripa in October 1987.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: No knowledge, thank you. Then the abduction, torture and mutilation of the Makanda brothers some time during 1987?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: The next one the assault on Pumsile Dlamini some time during the year 1988?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: What do you know about it?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, who assaulted her? Just the names?

MR RICHARDSON: When I refer to Mandela United, I am talking about the people who used to reside in that yard. They will not be forced to assault, they were willing to assault.

I would apologise in this point, because you will find out that at times I don't know their real names, that is the boys. There are very few that I knew their real names but Mandela United as the Club assaulted.

MR RICHARD: You say that you don't know the individual names of the perpetrators of the assaults, but you do say that the mere fact that you were told to take Ms Dlamini home by Mrs Mandela, was sufficient to make Ms Dlamini very, very scared. Why would that be?

MR RICHARDSON: They knew each time I accompanied them, there would be trouble. That is why she was so scared, but after assuring her that I won't do anything to her, she felt free and I really took her home and dropped her at her place and she opened her door and got inside her home. I did nothing to her.

MR RICHARD: Now, for the purposes of in chief, that is enough for Ms Dlamini. The next item on the subpoena is (g), that is the killing of Sergeant Pretorius in and during 1988. Now, when did you meet Sergeant Pretorius, could you please shortly tell us?

MR RICHARDSON: I met Pretorius at Oupa Seheri case at the High court. I was with Mrs Mandela the first time I met him and Zinzi and Charles Zwane. We had to get inside the lift and it was my first time to put my foot in the High court.

When we got inside the lift, they told me that these are the police and I wondered why we got inside the same lift because I did not want anyone to touch Mommy and I was worried that they would touch Mommy. Only myself could touch Mommy, not anyone else.

I had cut my hair and we got inside the court room and this boy looked at me and kept looking at some photo's that he had with him. We got to fourth floor or third floor and we got off the lift and we approached the room.

Mommy did not tell us where to sit and she went to sit with Zinzi and myself and Charles Zwane sat on the other side. The Police got inside. They kept looking at these pictures, photo's.

I heard him saying, you coach and I said to Charles, did you hear that, and I went to Mommy and I said to Mommy, he referred to me as coach and I saw Charles doing something and I said Charles, what are you doing, and Charles was talking about junior Slovo, and we saw junior Slovo getting out of the court room and I said (indistinct), that person got out.

MR RICHARD: I know it is a long story, but I am going to for the sake of time, cut you short on the story. You saw Mr Pretorius at the High court and then you saw him again in the area where you lived. Could you start up there again?

MR RICHARDSON: You know, I wanted us to take our time and now you keep instructing me to be fast, and I wanted us to get into details, but I will try my best.

Charles Zwane left us and went to sit in the court room and I told Mazet, when I say Mazet I am referring to Zinzi, I said Mazet, there is Charles leaving and we used to put on T-shirts that had some writing on and she said go and (indistinct) and I went back to Mazet and said Mazet, he will be coming and he got inside and there was silence in the court and we stood up.

And we saw Oupa Seheri wearing a brown overall and I was wondering is this how High court operates?

MR RICHARD: Now, we are talking about your meeting with Sergeant Pretorius, you saw Sergeant Pretorius at the High court and you became most perturbed because he was looking at you and he had a photograph in his hand.

The Oupa Seheri case concluded, when did you see him again?

MR RICHARDSON: I don't quite remember when I saw Pretorius again and where because when I look at the sketch that I have here, it does not collaborate with what I am saying because it is divided, there is soccer issues and there is Pretorius issues.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, perhaps if you will accommodate your client and try and - he seems to say he has categories and perhaps you might just in leading him, go into those categories and let him ... (intervention)

MR RICHARD: Chairperson, I am indebted. My client does want to tell all the details, however, from past experiences during the week, time is limited.

CHAIRPERSON: I hear what you say you have arranged your information according to categories, but because we don't have enough time, please be brief. When he asks you a question, quickly look at your sketch and answer immediately.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair, so we can go back to the High court. Now, have you finished telling us what happened at the High court?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, according to what I am told and instructed, one day you were going to a station somewhere near where you lived and you saw a vehicle with an individual in it. Would you please proceed from there on?

MR RICHARDSON: Each time I went to work, I will put on the Mandela United tracksuit. Now they used to trace me and to want to find out where my residential place is. At the back the tracksuit was written Mandela United Football Club.

I went to Muzimuhle station and I saw a car parked. I went home and I took my tracksuits to gym. I met the boy that time. I went to work and I got back and he stopped me. I saw one guy called Shabalala who called me and said I am a (indistinct) Chief and I said what (indistinct) are you talking about. Then he said, no it is fine, just go.

Just before I reached my house, I saw another car parked and I got inside my house and I saw the boy or the gentleman that I was talking to, passing again.

MR RICHARD: And what happened next?

MR RICHARDSON: After that, I was confused as to what was happening. One day Pretorius got home and arrested me. He took me to a bush and when we got there, he said coach I would like for you to work with me.

I said, in what manner? I want information, that was Pretorius saying that. I want information about the Football Club and I realised that I was in danger now and I said yes, I can work with you and he said okay, let's get into the car and we drove off.

Now, I went to Ellis Park and I saw him in the car again and he gave me a lift again and said I should get inside the car and he said I will make it a point that I keep an eye on you and he dropped me next to the road and he took off and I got inside the stadium and I watched soccer and he came to my work place as well.

MR RICHARD: And did you start providing Sergeant Pretorius with information?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I never gave him any information.

MR RICHARD: You didn't start providing him with any information that might have been useful to the Police about the Mandela household or the Football team or the activities of cadres?

MR RICHARDSON: No. I never did.

MR RICHARD: Right, so we will come back to that. That leads us onto an event, that leads us to an event on the 9th of November 1988, where were you on that day, you remember it clearly?

MR RICHARDSON: 1988.

MR RICHARD: The 9th of November?

MR RICHARDSON: I was at my house in Muzimuhle. I was with some friends that I used to call them with their names Sipho and Debogo. How I knew my friends was through Mrs Mandela because she said she will give me some guys to live with and she did bring them to me.

On that day when she brought them home, she never left both of them, she only left Sipho and she went away with Debogo.

MR RICHARD: On the 24th of November 1988, do you remember making a statement to the South African Police about the events that took place on that day?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And do you remember giving both Adv Vally and myself a statement about the events of what happened at your house?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Now, without me reading the statements to you and taking you line by line through it, would you briefly describe what happened?

MR RICHARDSON: I don't want to hide anything. I have put everything on paper. Like I said, I have given so many statements, but they are very economical with the truth.

MR RICHARD: That is why I am asking you to tell us and take us into your confidence now as to what happened on that day.

MR RICHARDSON: I want to go back to that matter. What I am about to say, won't collaborate with what is in the statement, today is a different day completely, it is not that day.

MR RICHARD: I am not concerned with what I have in front of me, I am concerned with what you are about to tell us.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please thank you.

MR RICHARDSON: This is what I have in mind. Mrs Mandela came with two people in her micro bus. Shakes was the one driving. There was Shakes, Mrs Mandela and the two others in the car.

Mrs Mandela got out of the car and got inside my house to me. She had told me before that she was coming and she told me that I am bringing these people now and I said no problem, Mommy, because I had my girl there in the house and he left the boy.

I knew already everything as to what was happening and Sipho got inside and we were playing TV games with my girl, my daughter and Sipho requested that I excuse the girl from our company because he wanted us to talk about something.

And we started talking and said Mommy has told me everything about you, you are very alive and you are very active with soccer and Mommy told me everything about you. Now, we will get into details about life. I am a guerilla. Then I said oh, I have heard about guerilla's and Sipho went on and on talking.

And he asked as to which bedroom he will sleep in and I showed him the bedroom and I told him that I will be sleeping in the sitting room.

When he was getting to the bedroom, I already knew that he was going to sleep there and my girl came back to me and now we were talking, the three of us. He was looking around, kept looking around the house and he lived with me then.

MR RICHARD: For how long did he live with you?

MR RICHARDSON: He lived with me for quite a long time, possibly nine months upwards. What I mean is he lived with me close to nine months.

MR RICHARD: Now, did anyone else come and live with you during that period?

MR RICHARDSON: It so happened that where Debogo used to live in Diepkloof extension, he had a conflict with the people in that house because of the girlfriend issues and each time he went to Mrs Mandela's, Sipho would have to go and get information from Mrs Mandela and Sipho told me that there was a problem emanating and he did not know that we were living the four of us, in the house now.

And Sipho said without Mommy's knowledge, we might get into trouble.

MR RICHARD: And what else did Sipho and Debogo ask you?

MR RICHARDSON: Sipho told me that it was time for me to go get my material. I should go to Mama and indeed I went to Mama and I told her that Sipho had sent me. He had given me some letters and he had covered them and I did not even bother to open them, I did not know what they were communicating about through the letters.

Indeed, I gave Mama the letters and Mama said Gogo Falati, go with Jerry to give Jerry that bag. Just around the corner, they went there and they got the bag and they gave it to me and I ran out of the yard with the bag and I got to the house and I gave it to Sipho. Sipho opened the bag in the house in the bedroom, and there was a lock. It was locked and Jerry showed me in the bedroom all what was inside the bag and instructed me that I shall never let the child get inside that room.

MR RICHARD: What was in the bag?

MR RICHARDSON: There was AK47, but divided. There was AK47 separated, there were grenades as well. I was even scared of touching those things, I just looked at them.

MR RICHARD: Now, this clearly is slightly different to what happened on the 9th of November. How long before the 9th of November was this? Some days, some weeks?

MR RICHARDSON: I don't remember. It was around November.

MR RICHARD: Now, you were never asked to take your guests to show them both suitable places for their targets?

MR RICHARDSON: Sipho said that.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever take them anywhere or did you ever say anything in answer to their questions, if so, what?

MR RICHARDSON: I took them to show them the targets. I went with them to Josh Koch, I took them to a home of the aged, the white home and we left for Krugersdorp and I showed them another place in Krugersdorp.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever tell anyone else who was staying with you during November 1988, besides Mrs Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Very well. Right, now to the events of the 9th of November. You were in your garden, your two guests were inside the house and people started arriving, various people. Who were they?

MR RICHARDSON: On that day, on the 9th of November, there was a Valiant car in my premises, it was parked there, I borrowed it from a friend, because I had guests and at times I would have to take them around or drive them around, and my friend borrowed me that car.

And I showed it to Sipho that this is the car that we will be using. On the 9th of November, something good happened, because Guybon arrived and two young boys arrived as well. And Lolo Sono arrived and Shabalala. Shabalala's first name I did not know, I just found out about it right now.

We had our unique way that we used to operate with. And I went to the Valiant and told them to get inside and I asked them questions as to what they wanted. And they said they got information from Mommy, and I said Mommy? They said yes, we got information from Mommy that we should come here and there is a trip to Lusaka that will depart from this place.

And there was - no before the window I saw Guybon jumping the fence. When Guybon jumped the fence, I got surprised as to why he jumped the fence and I asked him why he jumped the fence. And Guybon said I am sorry and he sat down. I went back to those boys.

I said to those boys, do you mean there is a trip to Zambia, Lusaka and I left them in the car. Debogo said one of those boys is my brother, and please ask him to get inside, but he shall not come into the house, he shall go right next to the toilet, I will go to him. I told him and they met behind the toilet outside.

I did not know as to what they were talking about.

MR RICHARD: And what happened next?

MR RICHARDSON: Now, they were talking there, I did not know as to what they were talking about, but I saw that boy coming back and got inside the car and I was inside the car with the other one.

Guybon was still sitting down there, and I finished with them, I went inside the house and Debogo said, look Richardson, here is R20, please give it to the boys and take them, don't take them to any taxi's, but make it a point that they go to town.

We jumped the rail line to the up town, just another section of Muzimuhle, and I stopped a taxi and I told the taxi, please take these boys, take them right to town, here is the R20 and give the change to them and he agreed to do that and they left and I went back home.

And I got inside and I reported to him as to what happened. Guybon was still sitting down there, and I went back to Guybon and asked Guybon as to what was bothering him or what was happening and Guybon said Mommy has sent me to come and fetch Sipho and Guybon said, I am with Hotstix Mabuse and I said, Sipho, you and Sipho and he said yes. And I said, wait a minute and I went back into the house and I told Sipho that Guybon is with me outside and he is saying he is here to fetch you. Sipho said go and tell Guybon that I am not going and he said he was Hotstix Mabuza and Sipho said I am not going. Go tell him that I am not going with him.

I went back to Guybon to tell him and he left. When you are in my house, looking across you will see a tarred road, it is a busy road used by the taxi's and heavy traffic. I saw him going across there and I went inside to tell them that I saw a BMW, a red BMW.

MR RICHARD: Then you were in the garden at a certain stage in the proceedings and an event happened. Let's get to that point?

MR RICHARDSON: After Guybon left, I took the hosepipe to water my lawn. After finishing that, I decided to wash up the car and I opened up the boot and there were balls, footballs inside the boot because people knew that I am a soccer person.

I washed up the car. When I turned around, I saw people running, approaching my house. When I tried to concentrate, I realised that they were coming straight to me. I knocked at the door and I told them that things are bad outside. And the Police arrested me, only to find that those police have been surveilling the house and my girl was doing laundry outside and she ran as well. She ran away, she jumped the fence.

It is a walled fence, she jumped the fence and I never saw her. Now, I heard the gun shots, I did not know whether the gun shot was from inside or it was from outside from the Police.

And I was taken right into the police van. They closed everything, I could not see anything outside and I heard a gun shot again.

MR RICHARD: And was there any more gun fire and when did you next see something? See or hear?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, there was shooting until it was quiet. And I even thought the house was destroyed from all the, and I tried to open the curtain, the window curtain from the van to peep and see as to what was happening outside, but I could not see anything.

They went back inside the house to search the house, and I was inside the van. And I kept peeping through the window and I could see that they were doing something in the house. I saw other two cars arriving, Black Mariah and the ambulance arriving and I was wondering why those cars were coming and I saw three stretchers and that amazed me and I was also removed and we drove to Protea.

MR RICHARD: And how long did you stay in Protea?

MR RICHARDSON: I was taken on the 9th of November and was brought back home on the 25th of November.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairperson, at this juncture there are certain matters that I need to take re-instruction from the witness on. And I would like a five minute adjournment before I ask him further questions on the disappearance of Lolo Sono?

CHAIRPERSON: I would hope we wouldn't keep having the adjournments that you take your instructions, but I think, I understand having been given your brief, okay, is it possible to take tea? I think maybe let us take a tea break and get back at twenty five past.

MR RICHARD: I am indebted, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sounding like a cracked record. Order please. Thank you, are you ready Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: I am ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, could you please continue?

MR RICHARD: I shall do my best Chairperson. Right, Mr Richardson, we were at the point that a shootout had happened and you were in Protea police station.

Now, you came out on the 25th of November 1988, where did you go once you left the police station?

MR RICHARDSON: I went to Mrs Mandela's place in Diepkloof extension.

MR RICHARD: Right, who did you meet there?

MR RICHARDSON: Mrs Mandela herself. I am sorry, I can't say Mrs Mandela, I am used to saying Mommy, as well as Zinzi. When I got there some of the members of the Mandela United Football Club, they said coach is back now. When I got into the house, I came across Mommy and Zinzi.

We sat down, I was welcomed warmly. They offered me tea and I told them as to how I had worked. We sat chatting away and I explained to them as to how I got out of prison. I explained to them that I had denied everything. I spoke about a certain Solomon Zwane, he was a President of White City Brothers.

They welcomed me very warmly. They invited other comrades to welcome me as well. Amongst the comrades were Charles Zwane, Sonwabo and the others.

MR RICHARD: Were there any suspicions voiced to you about yourself?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I could say Charles Zwane as well as Sonwabo. We were brought some tins, some liquor, Amstel because I am beer drinker and I love drinking. We started drinking and that is when they approached me and asked me as to why I had been released earlier than they expected.

I related the story to them that I devised some means so that I could be released. Sonwabo said to me that I am an informer, that is why they released me earlier than they were supposed to.

I said he should take a stand as a Commander and deal with me as he was alleging that I was an informer. And at that stage, I stopped drinking because I was scared that they were going to assault me or kill me whilst I was drunk.

Charles Zwane intervened and said that they trusted me as a coach and they did not believe that I was an informer.

MR RICHARD: Yes, but then they decided to keep you there until they had made further enquiries and there was this discussion about bringing Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala, would you please carry on from there?

MR RICHARDSON: As we were still arguing, I could see that I wanted the Commander to actually discipline me as he was alleging that I was an informer. He went out to Mommy and told Mommy. Charles followed and I was left all by myself in the study room, but not inside, we were just sitting on the floor, just next to the study room.

They came back. Sonwabo came out with an ultimatum and said as from today, you are being brought under house arrest, you are not to go anywhere outside the gate and you are not to meet any people or members of the public, you should just remain in the house.

And they told me that I was going to sleep in the house because my life was in danger, so they were trying to secure my safety.

I accepted that.

MR RICHARD: And then the decision was made to find, to bring or to produce the two young persons, that is Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala, is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct. That is what happened through Guybon because he is the one that told me that he is going to bring these two young men because they were the culprits. I asked them as to what they had done. He said they were suspects and he wanted to take me with to fetch these two young men, because they trusted me.

We organised some transport, Guybon Kubheka drove.

MR RICHARD: And were they not found very near the house, indeed on the property?

MR RICHARDSON: There is a very big problem, because there was a decision, so I do not know whether these youths were at the garage or the back rooms. But Guybon came back with those two youths, I saw them with my own eyes.

MR RICHARD: And how did they appear, were they in a good state of health or were they injured, or showed no injuries?

MR RICHARDSON: They had been severely assaulted and Guybon is just like me, their hands were tied as well as their feet. I saw them at the garage. I had given R20-00 to the driver earlier on and Guybon said I should assault.

The intention was to assault him and leave him. Then I assaulted them and left them. Guybon said we should take them back, but I did not want to because I had earlier been accused of being an informer, so I did not want to get involved.

MR RICHARD: For how long were they, after you saw them in the house that day shortly after your release, still kept in the house, and if you know where, where were they kept?

MR RICHARDSON: I am not really sure as to how many days they stayed because I was very weary of Sonwabo. I knew that my life was in danger at that stage.

MR RICHARD: Right. Then, the next question, the next question that comes about, was there was discussion and debate as to what to do with Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. Were you present when there was that conversation?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I was present.

MR RICHARD: Now, what was the conversation?

MR RICHARDSON: They discussed the spot at which they were to dump the two youths. A very secluded spot and each and everyone of them came up with a suggestion and an opinion as to where the two youths should be dumped.

They were not talking straight for one to understand. They were using some codes to communicate.

MR RICHARD: Now, you are describing a situation where it appeared that a decision had already been made to, as you say, dump them. What does the word dump mean?

MR RICHARDSON: This is a very beautiful word. If you dump something, you dump it because you don't want to make use of the thing any more. This means that you kill the person, and you dump the body, where nobody else could find it.

MR RICHARD: Who made that decision, was it Sonwabo or Guybon or any one else?

MR RICHARDSON: This came from Sonwabo and Mommy was a participant as well because she was the one who gave the go ahead or the green light for anything to happen.

MR RICHARD: Now, very well, so the decision that was left to be made, was where and how? Now, how long did it take for that decision to be made, was it one day or a number of days?

MR RICHARDSON: If I am not mistaken, I think they took one or two days. This was a very serious job that needed to be carried out and I showed them some spot where they could dump the bodies. I took Guybon and showed him quite several of these spots.

MR RICHARD: Is it not so that Guybon asked you for a safe place and you said that in your opinion the safest place is a mine dump on the outskirts of a hostel, is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: Now, the next morning, there was a conversation between yourself and Mrs Mandela, what was that?

MR RICHARDSON: I think I have forgotten as to what we talked about. I am not sure whether we discussed the matter that I should go with Guybon to the dumping site or I should go and look for the dumping site and report back. I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Well, the following morning according to the notes, 1 December 1988, Guybon came at approximately eleven o'clock, and said that today we will solve this problem with Sonwabo. Is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: That much I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Now, who went to the mine dump?

MR RICHARDSON: Shakes was driving, it was Guybon, Ninja as well as myself. We took some spades and shovels at my place in Muzimhuhle and went to the mine dump.

We did not look at all suspicious, we went up to focus place and the car was parked quite a distance. We went on foot, because Guybon knew the place very well.

MR RICHARD: Were you with the two young men, the youths and the rest of the company or were you somewhere else?

MR RICHARDSON: At the time that they were dumping the youths, we were left in the car, myself and Shakes. Guybon and Ninja went up with the two youths, tied together.

MR RICHARD: How long were they away for?

MR RICHARDSON: It was late in the afternoon and it was slightly dark, we were next to the hostel. I think it was quite a few minutes. I can't estimate. I am not able to tell you as to how many minutes they left.

MR RICHARD: And then, what happened?

MR RICHARDSON: They went with the two youths, without the spades and the shovels. I followed with the utensils and at the time, Guybon was busy killing the other one. He was killing him, slaughtering him like a goat.

MR RICHARD: You were there to witness both deaths?

MR RICHARDSON: I talked about the slaughtering and he just had to hit him once on the neck and at that stage I left, so I did not really see as to how he slaughtered him.

MR RICHARD: Some time later, the other rejoined you and what did you do next?

MR RICHARDSON: As soon as they finished slaughtering him, we got into the car, we went back to Mrs Mandela's place to give her a report back. We inspected ourselves as to whether we didn't have any blood stains or any tell tales of what we have just done.

Shakes went into the house and we went back into the back rooms. Guybon left, he went to his own place.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever go back to the scene, either alone?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, we went back to the scene, I went back to the scene. Myself with another Commander, Themba. I really wished I could get more time to talk about this matter.

Mommy introduced me to this guy whose name was Themba, but he refused to tell me what his surname is and he said he was a member of Umkonto weSizwe, that surprised me very much, because I knew that he was playing football at some stage.

And he gave me some forms to give them to Themba to fill in. These forms were called a profile. You fill this in and hand it over to Mommy. Mommy told me that the person who was filling the forms, was going to come back and I was going to show him a certain place.

Now Themba had a problem, because he was eating what I was eating. He always had something nice with him. And I asked him where does he get this nice thing that he is eating.

MR RICHARD: What did you and Themba do?

MR RICHARDSON: From Mommy's office Mommy used to call me (indistinct) Jerry, and she instructed me to show Themba that place. And Themba stayed for quite a few minutes and I also stayed in Mommy's office and Themba came back to tell me that he was ready, we could leave. We took a taxi to Meadowlands.

I was showing Themba the place. We went up to the mountain. When we got to the top of the mountain, I showed him the map. I showed him some corners and I showed him as to where this people were doing their job. We even found traces of blood.

He said I should go break a branch so that he can show me as to what they do as guerillas after having killed a person. He put some branches.

MR RICHARD: And how many graves did you see, one or more?

MR RICHARDSON: Where we saw blood, we tried to wipe it off and we put some branches on top of these blood stains. And there were about four blocks.

MR RICHARD: And once you had finished tidying up, what did you do next?

MR RICHARDSON: We moved away, we proceeded to Diepkloof extension. When we came back, we came across Mommy, she was at the garage, not inside the house. Even before I could speak, Mommy held me and said, my boy, my boy. And I asked myself as to how she knew that we were coming from that place.

Probably she knew beforehand that we were going there and she knew our mission. I reported back to her as to what we did when we got there. It was myself, Mommy and Themba.

MR RICHARD: Right. Then, in the more recent past, 1995 to the present, have you ever been back to that site, and if so, how often?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: And what happened on each occasion?

MR RICHARDSON: Aren't you interested to know as to who I went back with? Police came.

MR RICHARD: When was that?

MR RICHARDSON: That was in 1995. I want you to listen very carefully to this very important aspect. I was in Lokop at that time and I was from the cell of the condemned people. This white person came to me. This person was some sort of, he was not really white.

I think he was another nationality that I did not understand. He was half white, I was called that I had a visitor. I went on to dress to see who my visitor is. When I approached him, I told him that he had assaulted me at first. He said we should let bygones be bygones.

He told me that they did not have much information about me and the only person who knew much about me, was Pretorius. This person promised me that they would give me money or offer me a sum of money and they would make me comfortable in prison if only we could tell, or I could tell them as to where I dumped the two youths. I said I would welcome the idea, because I would love to have the money.

He asked me as to how we worked with Pretorius. I told him I was not prepared to divulge any information with regard to Pretorius. And he said to me Pretorius was an Indian, this Indian went with a white person. As I was in my cell, writing some notes, I was thinking of the money that I had been offered.

And I realised that I had to speak the truth. This person came back to me together with this half white. I was called now the second time, I was further promised a sum of money and I said to him, you must pay up front if you want me to talk, but he didn't give me any money.

He asked me if I wanted to board a plane or a helicopter. I could see that this Indian man was disturbed. He went away and came back with a lump sum of money, and showed it to me. I said just keep the money with you.

I asked him what he wanted, and he said he wants Lolo Sono as well as Shabalala. I told him that I was going to show him the place where I assaulted Kuki. He was very exited about the idea of being shown Kuki's grave.

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson, slow down. We are still with Sono and Shabalala. Carry on.

MR RICHARDSON: I am used to playing soccer, I am not an administrator, so I have a problem with the way you want me to conduct myself. We are talking about Lolo now?

MR RICHARD: Yes, we are talking about Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. Kuki Zwane will come next.

MR RICHARDSON: Thank you. You must bear in mind that we are talking about dead people.

MR RICHARD: Proceed.

MR RICHARDSON: I promised this man that I would take him to the spot and he said that if I wanted to be taken in a helicopter, he would do that. If I wanted to use public transport or taxi's, he would make sure that I had a taxi.

I said I would prefer public transport and there were people who knew me, who I wanted to see. We went with this Indian man and I could see that there were cars following us. I had been booked out of the prison for that particular occasion.

I showed him the place at Muzimuhle, the mine dump and I told him as to how the map worked. I showed him the spot from one point to the other, and he made some measurements. He took photo's of me. He took a photo of me whilst I was doing the pointing out. I was wearing a blue top. I don't remember the trousers that I was wearing.

We reached an agreement with him that I want to go and see my children. He agreed to take me there. We went to Muzimuhle and when I got to my house, I met Virginia Erasmus Richardson.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. On a later occasion this year, you went there again. This time with a number of other people, is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: Can you tell us about it? Did you take them to the same place?

MR RICHARDSON: That is true.

MR RICHARD: And you do know that bodies were not found as a result of either pointing out?

MR RICHARDSON: I still don't believe that, even today.

MR RICHARD: Now, is there a possibility that the two bodies of the two young men, young boys, could be found there, but in a slightly different place?

MR RICHARDSON: I took an oath that I will speak the truth. I do believe that you can make a mistake even if you are under oath, but it is within that vicinity that I pointed out. Maybe if the TRC could stretch the area, maybe we could get some bodies.

MR RICHARD: Now, you spoke about a map. Who drew this map?

MR RICHARDSON: I don't remember who drew the map between Guybon and myself.

MR RICHARD: Okay, now we have dealt with the events starting on the 9th of November and continuing into December. Now, the next fixed point that we have, is the discovery of Kuki Zwane's body on the 18th of December 1988. I mention that because according to page 20 of what has been described as an investigation diary, it is not technically an investigation diary, there is a note which in Afrikaans says the mortuary at Diepkloof was visited and Constable Raat was consulted. According to the mortuary register on the 18th of December ...

MR VALLY: I am sorry Mr Chairman, there is an Afrikaans interpreter available. If Mr Richard can just hold on and we can put him in position.

MR RICHARD: I think I have referred to the document with sufficient clarity for people to know to what I am referring. Now, what that in summary says is that the body was found on the 18th of December 1988, at a certain place.

Now, how did the police learn that this body was that of Kuki Zwane's, can you tell us who Kuki Zwane is?

MR RICHARDSON: I think you made a mistake. At the very same place, the second group that I went with, was not explained as to who they were. I went with the police and pointed the place out and I want to explain to you as to who the second group was or who did they comprise of.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do tell us.

MR RICHARDSON: The second group, there was a lady who works for the TRC. I think her name is Liela. I can point her out. She is the one who came to me to request me. I was happy that I was going to be accompanied by a white lady.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Yes, Mr Richardson. Yes, you have told us that you went with the TRC officials. Could you please just answer the question as to who Kuki Zwane is or was?

MR RICHARD: She according to my notes was the girlfriend of one Bothile and he was a member of your Club, to help you. Bothile came from Brandfort, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, what brought Kuki Zwane to be found in December 1988 somewhere near a railway line and a school, dead?

MR RICHARDSON: As you have already explained, Kuki was Bothile's girlfriend. We went to Brandfort with Mommy together with Mandela United Football Club.

Bothile disappeared and we don't know where he went to. We got some information to the effect that he had gone back to Brandfort. We went to Brandfort. When we got to Brandfort, we met with Kuki and Bothile. I think the first time we did not see Kuki, but we saw her the second time we went there, we brought them back.

MR RICHARD: Now, it is correct that Bothile and Kuki came back with you to Johannesburg and then there was an interview between Mrs Mandela and Bothile and according to this, Mrs Mandela asked Bothile something about Kuki, what was it?

MR RICHARDSON: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: What did she ask?

MR RICHARDSON: She asked as to whether Bothile was involved with Kuki. Bothile said yes and she said as from today, you should just go out and look for a job. And she said he must go and look for work. I admonished Bothile and said he must finish off his relationship with Kuki and join the Mandela Football Club, but at a later stage he left for Lusaka. Kuki was living just near by.

We saw that she went straight to her place.

MR RICHARD: And now, why were people not well disposed to Kuki?

MR RICHARDSON: I think Kuki was labelled as an informer at some stage, because she was not acting in accordance with Mommy's instructions.

MR RICHARD: What were those instructions that she disobeyed?

MR RICHARDSON: That she must terminate her relationship with Bothile.

MR RICHARD: Now, did this lead, to cut it very short, to a suspicion that Kuki was an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: And why was Kuki thought to be an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: If they chase you at Madiba's place, and you do not want to leave, you are told specifically that Madiba is not there and if you do not want to leave, they brand you as an informer and that you want to take the secrets of the household and divulge them to outside members.

And they told me that I should put an eye on Kuki because Bothile also had a drinking problem.

MR RICHARD: Now, this discussion about the unsatisfactory state of affairs about Bothile and Kuki, went on for a number of weeks, is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true, it went on for quite some time.

MR RICHARD: And a decision was made, what was that decision?

MR RICHARDSON: I was approached to assault Kuki and she had once appeared before the Disciplinary Committee. And a decision was taken that Kuki should be assaulted and that was our task, all of us.

John Morgan used to take the children to school and he also got wind of the fact that Kuki was going to be assaulted.

MR RICHARD: And did she get assaulted?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, Kuki was assaulted. I selected members of the team with whom I was going to carry out this task. I selected Killa and explained to Killa what our task was and I pointed out that I trusted Killa very much.

We moved from Diepkloof extension, I got R10-00 from Zinzi. We took a taxi. The taxi was going to Meadowlands and I had told a lie to Kuki and misled her to the fact that Bothile was in Meadowlands.

I just pointed out a spot next to the station. As the taxi went passed Orlando stadium, I paid the fare. We got out of the taxi, together with Killa. There are two schools there. There is a stadium, there is another school. First school and there is a second school. In between there, there was a large rock and I told myself that we were going to use this large rock to kill Kuki because I did not have an initial plan as to how I was going to kill Kuki.

I stabbed her, I slit her throat. We dumped her body there.

MR RICHARD: And what happened in 1995 when Detective, Major, whatever his rank is, H.T. Moodley came to see you?

MR RICHARDSON: I haven't yet finished with Kuki. Could I just finish?

MR RICHARD: Certainly.

MR RICHARDSON: We left Kuki's body there. I moved with Killa towards Muzimuhle. I went to my place where I usually go to check if there aren't any tell tales of the offence that we had just committed.

We went to my place and we looked. My place at the time was disused, because nobody was staying there. I washed whatever traces there were, in the river and I believed that I was going to dry along the way. I reported to Mommy that Mommy, I have now carried out your orders, I have killed Kuki.

And she said, the following day she wanted me to show her as to where I dumped Kuki's body. We got into the car with Mommy, we went through Noordgesig towards Killa Road and I pointed out to Mommy. She was on the driver's seat and I was on the passenger seat.

I just pointed out at a distance that there is the place that I dumped Kuki's body. She pointed out that the school kids will discover the body very quickly. I made a mistake by dumping the body at such a spot.

We went to the office, we parked the car as if we were checking at the office. We went out, we parked the car. That was how we left Kuki's body.

MR RICHARD: And then, did you ever speak about it to anyone else again between then and 1995?

MR RICHARDSON: I don't remember but it was myself and Killa who knew about this.

MR RICHARD: When Mr H.T. Moodley came to see you in 1995, did you mention this story to him?

MR RICHARDSON: When Moodley came in 1995, we reached an agreement that he would give me an amount of R10 000-00 for me to point out where Kuki's body was dumped. He had R10 000-00 with him, and we left. I don't know whether we started at the Orlando police station.

We went in a kombi, I got off and I told him that the school children are going to disturb us. I wasn't going to be able to point this area out because that was an area where school children walked up and down, to and from school. And really when I got out of the car, a school kid greeted me and this kid followed me and even touched me.

She even asked for money which she was offered by Moodley. I pointed the place out and they said they wanted to take a photo of me whilst I did the pointing out.

These are terrible things that I did. I told Moodley that he had made a mistake by taking me to that area during a school break. MR RICHARD: Thank you. We must turn to the next part of the subpoena and that is the kidnapping and murder of the five individuals, including Stompie Seipei.

Now, there when did you first meet Xoliswa Falati?

MR RICHARDSON: I didn't care much about Falati, I used to see her coming to Mrs Mandela's offices and I think she was working hand in hand with Mrs Mandela.

She would come and go. She also had her two kids with her, but I don't remember which year was it that I first saw her.

MR RICHARD: Now, certain events happened some time around the 27th of December. Is it not correct that on that day Xoliswa Falati came to the house in Diepkloof?

MR RICHARDSON: Which year was that?

MR RICHARD: 1988, 27th December, some time around there?

MR RICHARDSON: That is correct

MR RICHARD: And what did Ms Falati say, she had various complaints?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true. She had a series of complaints.

MR RICHARD: What were they, could you please tell the Commission what were Ms Falati's complaints?

MR RICHARDSON: She was seen by Mrs Mandela when she came, I was at the back room at the time. I think she spoke to Mrs Mandela with regard to her complaints. She was with four other people, Mompumalelo, her son, Katiza, she took them into the house, but I was told at a later stage by Extra Strong, that name was given to him by Mommy, that he was extra strong.

Falati got into the house and Extra Strong came to tell me. I wasn't there at the time when they carried out the conversation but they came to me whilst I was sitting with Sledge. We were playing some music.

MR RICHARD: Right, now as a result of those conversations, you received certain instructions, what were those instructions? Weren't they that you and John Morgan should go and do something?

MR RICHARDSON: I think I should relate the story as full as possible, but due to time constraints I think I will be very brief. We were given instructions that we should take the kombi. Morgan was supposed to drive and the yard was full of youths. I did not know who to select at that stage and they said that there was a problem, that we needed to sort out.

I told Morgan that we should take the bigger bus that came from Durban. So we took the bigger bus.

MR RICHARD: Where were you going to go in the bigger bus?

MR RICHARDSON: We were going to drop another group next to Muzimuhle and I would select a few members of the Club to go with.

MR RICHARD: And what were you going to do and why were you going to do it?

MR RICHARDSON: We were going to proceed to the church, greet with respect, introduce ourselves and ask to take the children who had a problem, that had earlier been reported. We parked the bus a bit further down because Morgan didn't know as to where we were going.

We were just singing our slogans and our freedom songs, so we left Morgan in the bus and proceeded into the church. We said Falati should lead the way because she is the one who brought the complaint. We followed Falati in. Sledge also went in.

They were playing cards inside and he stood guard so that they shouldn't escape. Falati addressed them and called them by their names. She started with Stompie and the others followed. I had about four youths standing in front of me.

At that time Sledge had started assaulting the youths. I admonished him to stop. The poor children looked very terrified. I told them to be free, because they were with Jerry Richardson, the coach of the Mandela Football Club. They were quite relaxed to know me.

We took them with. We did not force any of the youths to come with us. All went out voluntarily towards the bus. We drove.

MR RICHARD: What were the complaints that made you go and fetch them, please tell us? Something to do with Paul Verryn. I can't ask leading questions.

MR RICHARDSON: According to Falati, that there was a white male by the name of Paul Verryn who was abusing the youths. He was sodomising them.

MR RICHARD: Right, now you brought these young men and one person back to the residence and what happened there. Was there a conversation between them and Mrs Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: We drove the bus towards Diepkloof. We were singing freedom songs and Xoliswa Falati was leading us in those songs and we were dancing and ululating.

We were all free and happy inside the bus. Morgan parked the bus. We went into the yard, we proceeded to my room because they were not supposed to go into the main house which we called Parliament.

We were busy singing our freedom songs, we went into the house, we sat. We called Mommy, I am the one who fetched Mommy and I brought her. I told her that we had brought the four youths. Mommy was quite happy.

When we got into my room, there were no chairs. I sent one of them to go and fetch a chair and I wanted another chair to be brought in. I told Morgan to stand up and offer the chair to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, but he refused.

One of the youths brought a chair, and I offered Mommy the chair. She sat down and all of us sat down as we are sitting right now.

MR RICHARD: And then you were told to take one of them. Who were you told to take?

MR RICHARDSON: Mommy introduced herself to the youths. Actually it was Falati who introduced Mommy to the children and Kenny was the eldest. I was instructed to take Kenny, Sledge took Stompie. Each and every one of us had a youth with him.

I went into the jacuzzi, but there wasn't any water in the jacuzzi. I sat with Kenny and asked him as to what was happening at the manse. Kenny related the story to me that Paul Verryn was sodomising them. He would caress them and he wanted to sleep with them.

I hit him with an open hand. Because I usually put on rings on my fingers, he got a bruise on his eye and I said I was going to tell Mommy whatever he had told me. I took him with to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and related the story that they were being sodomised by Paul Verryn.

Mommy sat him down and they others were brought in, but the reports that they gave were not reconcilable. They gave different statements and conflicting reports as to what was happening.

And comrade Falati said he had some little things with him which he could not account for. He could not tell them as to where he got them from. He had a watch ... (intervention)

MR RICHARD: Who is he? Who is this person that Falati is talking about at the moment, Ms Falati?

MR RICHARDSON: It was Stompie who had some articles in his pocket. He got a watch, a small wrist watch, a battery operated wrist watch. I took this watch from him.

CHAIRPERSON: I just wondered how are we getting?

MR RICHARD: We are a long way through it, but it is still a long way to go. Is it not correct that Sledge had Stompie with him and then the accusation was that Stompie, because of these things, was an informer? Is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I think it is so.

MR RICHARD: Now, at that stage, you and Sledge started doing something, please tell us what you did.

MR RICHARDSON: We did a lot of things with Sledge. Some pretty bad things, but I am disturbed that Sledge is around and he is not willing to come and testify. Sledge is very much alive and kicking.

We started torturing the youths in the manner that the boers used to torture freedom fighters. The first thing that I did to Stompie was to hold him with both sides, throw him up in the air and let him fall freely onto the ground. Mommy was sitting and watching us.

I think we threw Stompie about seven times in the air and he fell onto the ground. He was tortured so severely that at some stage I could see that he would ultimately die.

MR RICHARD: Was he only thrown up into the air and dropped or was any other assault performed on him?

MR RICHARDSON: There is a lot of things that we did to Stompie. We kicked him, we just kicked him like a ball.

We did a lot of things.

MR RICHARD: Now, did any sjambok ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. Just hold it there. Could you try to - it is a very difficult thing - thank you.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, you were in this room and Stompie was being assaulted. The question that I am trying to ask is who started the assaults, how was he assaulted and for how long and in what manner?

MR RICHARDSON: I have not come to play chess here. I do not want to cry but this has charged me emotionally, because the things that we did as the Mandela Football Club, they are horrible, they are barbaric.

There is a lot of things that we did and I am growing scared now to say some of the things.

CHAIRPERSON: We would request you to really stick to the points. This is a very emotional period for all of us. Could you please just tell us in detail, as to what happened and who started assaulting and can you please just answer your questions briefly because you have described in detail as to what you did to Stompie. We just need the basis things, you need not go into full details with regard to this matter, because there are a lot of people listening and this is a very touching moment for all of us and we would just request you to stick to the basis points.

MR RICHARDSON: Chairperson, I respect you and I respect your decision. I believe that we have been coming here for the past six, seven, she has not been crying. And you usually admonish the people to keep quiet, I appreciate the job that you are doing, but when we switch off the lights, you are in your houses, you've got securities and bodyguards. We are in prison.

Chairperson, I respect you, I revere you. I knew that if I talk about Stompie, Stompie's mother will cry, but I would like you to give me a chance to express myself fully because I haven't yet dropped my bombshell, I have bigger things coming.

And when people start crying, this poses a problem for me because I haven't yet detailed whatever I did. Twosome Motawu usually says when days are dark, friends are few.

I will request you Chairperson, because this is a very touching story, it touches me as well, the whole world knows what is happening. Even my children are missing me as much as Stompie's mother misses Stompie.

You are threatening me that you can lay charges against me, there is nothing that I have done. You are listening to my story. Mrs Mandela is not going to cry and Joyce is crying.

CHAIRPERSON: I have requested you and we have listened to your plea, we are all having a difficulty and if you can, please try to meet us halfway. Try to give us the basics so that we can get to the root of the truth. Can you continue or would you like us to adjourn so that you can regain your composure?

MR RICHARDSON: No. Okay, you can continue to the other aspects. She will not forget that her child was killed in such a brutal manner.

I killed Stompie under the instructions of Mommy. Mommy never killed anyone, but she used us to kill a lot of people. She does not even visit us in prisons. She used us.

CHAIRPERSON: She will get an opportunity to come and express herself and answer to all the allegations that are being put to her, so you should not worry about Mommy, you should really worry about yourself. You should answers put to you. We will appreciate it if you can do that.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairman. Where we were is that Mrs Mandela, the Football Team, Stompie and the others including Katiza Cebekhulu were all in a room. You said that he was being assaulted.

Now, if I read from the notes, is it correct that the people that beat Stompie were Mrs Mandela, Katiza, Sledge and yourself?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, but there are others. Everybody who was there participated as well as the other members of the Mandela United Football Club.

MR RICHARD: Then Sledge and you threw Stompie into the air and he fell to the ground and you kicked him, is that a summary of what you said?

MR RICHARDSON: Let me start with Kenny. Kenny was assaulted with fists by Mommy until I stopped Mommy. I took Kenny, I assaulted Kenny with fists and at that time that I was busy with Kenny, Mommy was grabbing another one.

At some stage she actually grabbed one of the youths by the hair. Whilst we were busy sjamboking the others ones, others were busy with fists, kicking, it was a whole lot of commotion.

MR RICHARD: Right, now how long did this go on for?

MR RICHARDSON: This went on for about two hours.

MR RICHARD: For the sake of time, to paraphrase, what was said here goes as follows. To quote, we used a sjambok, shoes and a light cane, fists and so on, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is very true.

MR RICHARD: As a result of these beatings it came out that Stompie said that he regretted selling out MK guerillas, he prayed for mercy and asked to be taken home, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: And then after the two and a half hours of assaulting the youths and Stompie, you felt that it was enough and is it correct to say that the other three individuals, ie Kenny, Thabo and Pelo were also badly assaulted, but not as badly assaulted as Stompie? Is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: Then at approximately 21h30 that evening, you had supper which was brought to you by one Gogo? Correct?

MR RICHARDSON: I don't remember that part.

MR RICHARD: And Stompie by that stage was too badly injured to eat?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: And then what Sledge and you did was you gave them blankets and you, Sledge and Ronnie Skekoni slept with them. Is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: So, we get ourselves to the next morning. You went and saw Mrs Mandela, what report did you make to her. I can't lead you further?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct. The following morning I went to Mommy to give her a report back. I told her that Stompie was worse off than the other kids, he had been badly injured and I wanted to take him back to his place.

But I could see that Stompie was in a very bad shape. I realised that he was going to die anyway, and my opinion was that he should just be finished off.

MR RICHARD: Carry on.

MR RICHARDSON: I have got a problem. I don't trust, when the lights go off, I get scared.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

MR RICHARDSON: I am speaking the truth now. We were not supposed to take Stompie to Parys because I took a pen and gave it to Stompie to write his address.

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson, you are going too fast now. The next morning, is it not true that you waited for Guybon Kubheka until about 18h30 that afternoon and he wanted information about the four people you had collected from the church?

MR RICHARDSON: That is true.

MR RICHARD: And what happened when you informed Guybon that evening that you had assaulted Stompie because he had sold out four Guerillas in Parys?

MR RICHARDSON: Guybon kicked Stompie as well as the other youths. But he kicked Stompie so severely, much more than the other youths. Each time he looked at Stompie, he would just kick him because he had sold the Guerillas.

MR RICHARD: And then that evening, did Sonwabo have any role to play, did he do anything, did he come?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, Sonwabo did come. I related the story to him. He came into my room and I related the events of the previous day to him.

When we got into my room, I pointed Stompie out and he still assaulted Stompie even further, even though he was weak and laying on the ground. He did not assault the other ones like he assaulted Stompie.

Then he went out. He got into the house, the main house.

MR RICHARD: Now, the next morning, Stompie was alive and what was the condition of Kenny, Thabo and Pelo, that is Gabriel?

MR RICHARDSON: They were all injured because they had been severely assaulted, but Stompie was worse off.

MR RICHARD: Now, here it is said in your instructions that Mrs Mandela took the three of them to town with her and bought them some clothes and they came back at one o'clock. Do you remember that?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true. She did that. They even came back to show me the clothes. She used to buy them similar clothes, that is khaki's.

MR RICHARD: Now, at 18h30 that evening Sonwabo joined you this time there was a discussion and a meeting, would you please tell us what happened?

MR RICHARDSON: A meeting was held and Sonwabo was actually putting pressure on me to carry out this instruction. He at some stage said, this is going to backfire.

MR RICHARD: This is now a few days after the first assault had commenced? There is a meeting that evening at 18h30 and I didn't ask what the conclusion was, I wanted to know what the contents of the meeting is. What was said at the meeting, who was at the meeting?

MR RICHARDSON: I don't remember this meeting you are referring to. Could you please give me a clue or tell me what meeting you are referring to.

MR RICHARD: The three had been taken to the shops to buy clothes. They had come back at approximately 13h00, that is one o'clock according to your instructions. They showed you the clothes, according to what you said.

That afternoon at about 18h30 Sonwabo arrived and he asked you a question, what was that question?

MR RICHARDSON: How is this connected, Sonwabo wasn't in the picture and Kenny is not in the picture. The people who were bought clothes, were only two youths, Thabiso and Filly. I don't know what happened to Kenny.

MR RICHARD: No, it is not about Kenny at all. It is that afternoon and according to your instructions, Sonwabo told me, I am reading, are you prepared to kill Stompie and there was a discussion, a meeting. I can't ask any more questions before I must leave it. Did that happen or didn't it?

MR RICHARDSON: I don't remember. Maybe it will come back to me at a later stage, but I don't remember the meeting you are referring me to.

MR RICHARD: (Inaudible)

MR RICHARDSON: That is correct, that I should kill Stompie.

MR RICHARD: At which meeting was that instruction given? Who was at the discussion to give that instruction?

MR RICHARDSON: Mommy was present, Sledge, myself. Mommy asked as to whether I trusted Sledge and I said yes, I do. And she asked Sledge whether Sledge trusted me and he said yes.

And Mommy said we should do one thing.

MR RICHARD: Right, then Sledge and you did something. Where did you go and what did you do?

MR RICHARDSON: We had been given a task and an instruction. We went to look for a place. As you go towards Noordgesig, we went to look at a certain hill or a mountain next to Noordgesig and we saw some rocks there.

The place was next to the railway line from New Canada towards Noordgesig. We saw that secluded spot there.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now you came home late that night and went to bed, is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, the next morning, did you do what was planned, yes or no?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, we carried out our plan.

MR RICHARD: Was it possible to do that job because according to the instructions, at that stage had visitors?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, there were a lot of visitors, there would be the Crisis Committee as well as people who had just come to investigate. Mommy would hide me at times and at times she would ultimately have to call me.

MR RICHARD: Isn't it correct that the evening that Frank Chikane, Sister Bernard Makobe and others came to visit, you postponed the job, correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: Then, later that evening, there was a discussion between yourself and Mrs Mandela and to what effect was that?

MR RICHARDSON: We were talking with regard to Stompie, the Crisis Committee and we were sceptical of the Crisis Committee and she expressed her concern that the Crisis Committee was going to discover the presence of the youths in her yard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, did you not go to bed that evening and leave whatever was going to be done, to the next day?

MR RICHARDSON: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, the next morning, you sent the rest of the people into the house and you and some others did something, what was that?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true. We did something very bad, that was myself and Sledge. We spoke to the rest of the comrades who were in Diepkloof extension. We said Mommy was very ill and she feels better when you sing freedom songs or slogans.

We called in the other comrades to come and sing for Mommy. When they got into the house, they started the slogan as well as the freedom songs. Mommy was sitting in the sitting room and I said to Stompie, today I am taking you home.

I looked around and realised that there wasn't anyone in the yard. I took Stompie with, Sledge followed me. I had a pair of garden shears and gave it to Sledge because I had to help Stompie along, because he was very ill, very weak and he looked quite delirious.

We dragged Stompie along.

MR RICHARD: Then, you reached Noordgesig and were facing a railway line. What is that railway line known as?

MR RICHARDSON: No, we did not go towards the railway line, we went to Noordgesig. We went to the mountain in Noordgesig. That is where we took Stompie.

That is the most painful part. I don't know whether I should proceed. I did the same with him, I slaughtered him. I slaughtered him like a goat. We made him lay on his back and I put garden shears through his neck and the garden shears penetrated to the back of his neck and I made some cutting motion. Sledge also had his own pair of garden shears and he cut Stompie's neck. He really wanted to make sure that we cut his throat.

MR RICHARD: The technique that you used with the shears, was it as if you were slicing a loaf of bread or a stabbing motion?

MR RICHARDSON: It was a stabbing motion, not the cutting motion. But Sledge had the duty to finish off. I just let the garden shears penetrate through the neck.

MR RICHARD: What did you do next? Carry on.

MR RICHARDSON: We stood there for quite a long time. We wanted Stompie's body to be cool, because we told ourselves that we were committing the perfect crime. We watched the cars passing by but we were not very concerned, because we were away from the glaring lights of the cars.

Ultimately we saw that Stompie had died. We went to the river, we washed ourselves, we washed the traces of blood off. We proceeded to Diepkloof because we still had this pair of garden shears and we were taking it back to Mommy's house.

We screwed it together once more, we put it in the garage, Mommy's garage.

MR RICHARD: Now, before I proceed to Ikaneng. Is it not true that the truth about what happened was that you received a report from Ms Falati, you abducted the four individuals, serious assaults happened which got out of control. The Crisis Committee was then asking for the youths and because Stompie Seipei was so badly beaten, it was decided between you, Sonwabo, Guybon and Mrs Mandela to kill Stompie Seipei so as to cover up what had happened?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: And then the further events took place and that is the Crisis Committee was successful in applying sufficient pressure to obtain the release of the others, but there were still problems. And that was that certain individuals might actually reveal the truth?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: And I know the Commission is very, very short of time, so when we proceed to Lerothodi Ikaneng, was it not true that he was one of such individuals who was in danger of revealing what was happening and what was going on?

DR BORAINE: Just before the witness answers, Mr Richard are you able to give any idea of how long you are going to be?

MR RICHARD: If I must proceed through the Ikaneng transaction in the same detail as the witness has wanted to describe it, it will be a long time. I am trying to summarise it and I am doing something which I should not do and putting the most leading questions of the lot.

DR BORAINE: I understand that entirely, but you do appreciate that we have a lot of other work to do.

MR RICHARD: That is why Chairperson, that I at this stage is going to put the Ikaneng part of the story in this manner.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson, you were present when Lerothodi Ikaneng gave evidence, is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: I don't know whether I can ask the Chairperson for permission to summarise, because I wanted to point out that Mommy did not kill Stompie, she did not stab Stompie. I killed Stompie in accordance with Mrs -Mandela's instructions. Now we are hopping around all over the place. I want to be able to summarise this matter and now we are passing on to another issue, without me having finished whatever I wanted to say about Stompie.

I want Mommy to take the stand. Now, I can see that Mommy is being defended. Mommy did not stab Stompie. According to this book, it is alleged that Mommy stabbed thrice.

DR BORAINE: Can I just interrupt you for a moment. Mr Richardson, I have listened very carefully to you and you have told your story very well.

Your story has been told as to what happened and that you have told us, this Commission, that you killed Stompie, so there is no doubt in our minds. You have been very helpful, you have told the story. We would like to move on because there is other information that we would like to hear from you. Could we move on please. Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. Now, I will restate the question. You were present yesterday when Mr Ikaneng gave evidence, is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I was.

MR RICHARD: For the sake of time, may it not be said that what he said corresponds in substance, not in detail, with what you wish to say?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I was listening to Ikaneng. I am not going to answer any questions with regard to Ikaneng. If you want to ask me a question, direct it to me.

MR RICHARD: The question is, at the end of the day, is it not correct that you and certain individuals took Mr Ikaneng to a certain place and there an attempt was made on his life?

MR RICHARDSON: That is true.

MR RICHARD: Now, the events that led to the taking of Mr Ikaneng to that particular place, we don't need to cover them in detail, they were described yesterday and that the only thing that we need to do today, is to concentrate on what happened once you had him where you wanted to take him.

MR RICHARDSON: We were training at Diepkloof extension, I was training the Football Club members together with others. And some of them were injured and I just wanted to see whether they had recovered from their injuries.

I got a message from Zinzi that she wanted to see me and it was quite urgent. The person came to me he said his name was Buick. I went to Zinzi at Diepkloof extension and Zinzi told me that Lerothodi had been injured at the supermarket and she gave me money to go and see what was happening.

I was still in the tracksuit that I was wearing earlier on. I took Kenny, Pelo, Thabiso, Isaac - there were five of us. We boarded a taxi to Orlando West and ran towards the supermarket, but we couldn't find Lerothodi there. I told them to wait for me and I ran towards a short street which had a passage.

I was looking for Lerothodi and I proceeded to Muzimuhle when I couldn't get him at his place. We discovered him next to the railway station at Muzimuhle station.

MR RICHARD: From that place, is it not correct that he was grabbed, two of you held him by the hands, two by the legs and you took him down to the ground?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct. We grabbed Lerothodi and took him with. Lerothodi knows me very well, but he did not know the rest of the group. He asked me to leave him so that he can walk all on his own. I told him that Mommy wanted to see him.

And I could see that he was scared. We went into a certain house at Muzimuhle, that is Lerothodi's girlfriend's place. I spoke to Moses and said he should look out so that he can confirm that nobody was following us.

I went back into the house, took Lerothodi. I used his other name, soccer name, Master, and Lerothodi was asking me as to why we were taking the route that we took. He asked me please, don't kill me. And Isaac had the pair of garden shears. Lerothodi managed to escape and we chased him and got hold of him. Isaac was having this pair of shears.

We started assaulting Lerothodi. We took him just underneath the bridge, next to the railway station. We were not going to the Stompie spot. We grabbed him.

I instructed Pelo to hold one hand and each and every one of them had a part to grab and get hold of. They threw him down to the ground. And they tried to stab him, but I said they weren't doing a professional job.

I took the pair of garden shears. I stabbed Lerothodi on the neck and when I pulled the pair of garden shears, I could see Lerothodi gasping for breath and blood was coming out of his mouth. I realised that he wasn't yet dead.

We took him and threw him into a shallow grave. I gave Pelo and Thabiso some money and instructed them to go to Diepkloof. Kenny and myself took the opposite direction.

MR RICHARD: Is it correct that you got disturbed by the coming of a police vehicle and you left the scene?

MR RICHARDSON: That is true.

MR RICHARD: And you went back to the house and there you met Mrs Mandela and Ms Zinzi Mandela and you made a report. What was that?

MR RICHARDSON: I told Mommy that I had killed Lerothodi. Mommy embraced me and said my boy, my boy.

MR RICHARD: You have outlined in brief and in some detail, depending on which incident we were speaking of, that you did some of the most horrendous and horrific acts that a person could imagine doing, is that not correct?

MR RICHARDSON: That is very true. I don't know where to start expressing myself. But I will try to be very brief and say it would have been better for me to have died because I wouldn't be sitting here, talking all this that I am saying. It should be a different story that the punishment that Richardson got, was commensurate with the crime that he committed.

Because I believe that the person who lost the most, is Stompie's mother. There isn't much that I can say. I was convicted at the High court and there wasn't a single person and that is why I say when days are dark, friends are few. I was taken to Ben Schoeman.

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson, it is correct that you fully accept that you were guilty of all the various offences that we have sketched and that the conviction and sentence that you received for the killing of Stompie Seipei was correct and proper in your respect? A simple yes or no?

MR RICHARDSON: I do not know how to answer that question. I think if you get my record from the condemned cell, I was singing a song, Lord have mercy on me, forgive me my sins. That is the song that I was singing.

MR RICHARD: The question that we must ask is would these evil and dreadful deeds that you have committed, all of them, have not happened if it were not for the political context of the time and particularly the instructions you received?

MR RICHARDSON: The things that I did, if a person says they were within a political context, I think you would have to explain, because I was told when I appeared in court that I am a criminal, I am a common law prisoner and that was written down in my file.

Now, I don't understand what you are telling me when you say it has got a political context. I am in the D-group in prison.

MR RICHARD: The political context ... (intervention)

DR BORAINE: I think we must move as fast as we can Mr Richard. It is taking a long time. This is not an amnesty hearing.

MR RICHARD: No it is short, three questions.

MR RICHARDSON: I am not wasting time. I am still oppressed in prison. I don't call myself a politician, I call myself a soccer star.

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson, what I am saying is is not the reason for you killing these various people that they were labelled or named or pointed out to be informants?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is very true.

MR RICHARD: Now, the next question, which is my last, who instructed you to kill each and every one of them and who instructed you to abduct the particular young men and youth at the end of December of 1988?

MR RICHARDSON: The first person was Mommy. The second one was Sonwabo.

MR RICHARD: And if you had not received these instructions, is it not correct to say that you would not have done what you did?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I wouldn't have done that. Even my record shows that I do not have any previous convictions.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairman, I think it is Mr Hanif's turn.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.

I want to start off with the incidents you have described. Firstly, where did you get to the bottom, exactly who was involved in the assaults, tortures and subsequent murder of Mr Stompie Seipei. Firstly can you tell me specifically who was involved in the assault on the four youths, and if you give me the nick names, please give me the full names of people that you do know.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Can we just be specific, who was party to the assault on the four young men who were brought from the Methodist manse. Just tell me their names, if you donít know their real names, just give me their nicknames.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: What are you looking for Mr Richardson.

Let us go on, you talked about Genl. Scorpion I think that's what you've said. Was he one of the persons who were party to this assault?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: All right, you give us names, you've talked about Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, you've talked about yourself. Please tell us who else was present there, and participating in the assaults?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Can you recall any more names?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: What was the Jabu Sithole who you mentioned was present, - what was his nick name?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's go on, the Jabu Sithole you've mentioned. Was it the same Jabu Sithole who gave evidence before this hearing?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Is his nick name Javis?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: All right, letís move on.

In all the incidents that you've mentioned thus far, did you ever act on your own in committing these crimes? Were you always acting on instructions?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Can we just go on. How long was Katiza Cebekhulu staying at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Mr Richardson, what I want to know is this. How long are you aware of that Mr Cebekhulu stayed at Mr Madikizela-Mandelaís house? Just give us a straight answer please.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Letís go on.

You mentioned to the (indistinct)Committee . Who chaired the meetings of the (indistinct)Committee?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: So you're saying that this (indistinct) Committee was an ad hoc one which would be appointed from time to time by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. Is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Who determined the punishment if you found someone guilty in this (indistinct) Committee?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: At this time, were you employed elsewhere, or were you full time at the Madikizela-Mandela household?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you talking after your housewives attacks when the two ANC guerillas were killed in your house? Are you talking about that period?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Is this when you were party to the activities to the (indistinct) Committee at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Can you advise me to addition to the murder of Mr Stompie Seipei and the assault on the three young men, as well as the murder of Kuki Zwane.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any other murders that were committed as a result of a decision taken by the Crisis Committee?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Do you know anything about the murder of Thulani Dlamini?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Who gave the instruction for the murder to be carried out?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you saying you donít know who gave the instructions?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you aware of who actually performed the task of killing Thulani Dlamini?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let me ask you about the attack on the Chili household when T....... Ntsomi, I believe she was an 14 year old girl who was shot dead. Are you aware of that attack?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Were you already in prison at the time?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Were you part of the Mandela United Football club at the time that Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house in Orlando was burnt down by the Daliwonga School children?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Can you briefly tell us what transpired, why was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house attacked at that time? Do you know specifically why the house was attacked?

Can you tell me.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Can you tell me, did any youth walk freely in and out of Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house or her back rooms? Could any one just arrive there and say: I need to come in , and I need a place to stay - and would they be welcomed at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: How was this monitored?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: What I want to know is, if I'm a young person, say a young man, and I arrive there and say: I've come from KwaMashu, I'm running away from the police, I need to stay here. Could I just walk in and be allowed to stay in that house or in the back room?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Would a person who wanted to come and stay at the house, be checked out to see if they were informer, or whether the story was true, or were anyone allowed into the house at any time, and I'm talking about the back rooms as well?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: I want to cover some new item, but I just want to cover some of the items you've already given evidence on.

Firstly regarding the issue of the murder of Mr Stompie Seipei, and the abduction of the other young men. Who specifically gave you the instructions to fetch the four young men from the Methodist Manse?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Secondly, regarding Mr Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. Mrs Madikizala-Mandela says, the last time she saw these two young men, was when she dropped them off with the two ANC guerillas were staying at your house. What's your response to that?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Do you agree that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has nothing to do with the death of these two young boys?

Do you maintain your story you gave us earlier as to how they were killed and on who's instructions?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's go on to the issue of Dr Asvat.

We have medical records showing that you've visited Dr Asvat's surgery on the day before he was killed, and on the day he was actually murdered. Do you confirm that?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Can you tell us why you went to see him?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did your visits to Dr Asvat have anything to do with his murder?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Were you (indistinct)the scene for the person who actually carried out his murder? Were you acting as a scout, were you on a recognisance mission to Dr Asvat's rooms for the presidents who actually carried out the murder?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: At the time that the youngsters who had been kidnapped from the Methodist manse were at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house. Were they at any stage examined by Dr Asvat?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you saying you do not remember, or are you saying it did not happened?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Regarding Kuki Zwane, when Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was asked at her section 29 inquiry, the second one, page 154 , and she was asked . Do you know Kuki Zwane? Her first response was, Who is this? I continued, Kuki Zwane. Her response was, Who is Kuki Zwane?. I continued, she's also known as Priscilla Massell, or Masio. Do you know her at all?

Her response was, ..oh, there is I think. I recognised that name. It was included in the allegations that were made to my daughters. That was one of the killings I heard of for the first time, and that girl had been killed and information to Fivas, it was one of the names that were mentioned at the time and I heard for the first time that she was dead then. I continued, Do you know her at all? Her response was,I knew her vaguely as one of the children who were in and out of my house. I cannot remember her.

I asked: Who was she friendly with,..and I continued why was she coming to your house? Her response was: They visited each other all the time, I mean those boys were visited by all sorts of people. I also mentioned that Kuki Zwane had gone to see Dr Asvat with Katiza.

Mrs Madikizela-Mandela denied that. I asked was Kuki Zwane a personal friend of your daughter?

Her answer was: No, not to my knowledge. I asked her, when was the first time you heard of Kuki Zwane's death? The response was. I heard when my daughters were called by their father, and they were told that that was one of the deaths. It was not only the Asvat killers who were supposed to be mentioned then. This particular name was also one of the names.

Fivas was suppose to put all this deaths together, including the death of this child. I asked her. Jerry Richardson alleges that he was responsible for the murder of Kuki Zwane , and he was acting on your instructions.

What is your comments on that? Her response was: I heard for the first time from you, not even that information which had reached us at the time identified Richardson as a killer. I was merely told that that child had been killed, and that would make it possible for me to be implicated in her death.

I heard for the first time from you people that Richardson was a killer.

My question: Was Kuki Zwane ever a resident in your house? No, no girl was a resident at my house, it was only the boys at the back.

Now these were the answers that we got from Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela when we had the in camera enquiry.

My first question is: Did Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela to the best of your knowledge know Kuki Zwane?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Just very brief about Kuki Zwane and Bothile. You mentioned that you people went twice to Brandford to look for Kuki Zwane and Bothile. Your answers were not to clear at that point. Are you saying that no one was allowed to leave the football club without permission?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: What would happen to a person who left the Soccer Club. Would there be any violent consequences to his action, would he be assaulted, would he be threatened with death, or would he just be spoken to?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, the witness has the impression that you're not listening to his answers, because when he is answering, you are consulting. I think you should show him the courtesy of listening to his answers.

MR VALLY: Mr Richardson, you can be rest assured, I'm listening to you very carefully through my head phones. I'm just preparing my next question.

Let's go on, I want to go back to the attack on your house by the police when Serg. Pretorius, Mr (indistinct) and (indistinct) as you refer to them, were killed.

Now, is it true that Serg. Pretorius was in fact, what they called, you handler. That you informing to him?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: I asked you a question, whether you were a police informer and the person whom to you were supplying your information to, was Serg. Pretorius.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Will you answer the question please. Were you a police informer or not?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you give information to the police during any of the time that you were staying at Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house regarding the activities that are taking place in her house?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you at any stage give any information to the police regarding the activities that were taking place at the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's start off with Serg. Pretorius? Did you give him any information?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: So he just casually every now and then gave you a lift to Ellis Park and from Ellis Park. You were just a friend of his?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: You promised to give him any information?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you ever deliver on you promise?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: What information did you give him?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: What I need to know from you..

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Just wait, could you please just, order please, order please! I don't want to clear this room. When I say order, I've said this before, when I say order, I expect you to keep quiet. If you don't want to keep quiet, you have the perfect right to be outside of this hall. I'm not going to have us disturb by yourselves, those of you that would want to obey my request for order. I'll say this just once again. If I say order, I mean, please keep quiet. If you are unable to do so, don't let me ask that the hall be emptied.

Do you want to conclude this part of your question? I think that we should probably break for lunch.

MR VALLY: Archbishop, I expect to be another five minutes. Either we could break now, or we can finish?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's complete this.

MR VALLY: Thank you very much.

There were two people present. You and Serg. Pretorius. Serg. Pretorius is now dead as we know. You are with us. Can you please tell us what information you gave Serg. Pretorius?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you see Mr Erasmus and Mr Moodley at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Please answer the question.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: What were they doing there?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you referring to Mr Moodley who gave evidence at this hearing?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's go on. Did you gave information to the police regarding the presence of Mr (indistinct) and Mr (indistinct) at your house, namely the persons you called (indistinct)?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: My question is this, you demanded money from Mr Moodley, before you gave him any information on the basis that you were owed money for informing the police about the presence of Debogo and Sipho on your premises? To whom did you give this information to? Was it Serg. Pretorius?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you give information to Serg. Pretorius regarding the presence of Thobogo and Sipho on you premises?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Now Serg. Pretorius was shot dead in your kitchen, at the same time that Thobogo and Sipho shot dead in your kitchen. I need to know this, when you were arrested when the police attacked your house. Were there a large number of police present at the attack?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: So if there were so many police present at your house and if they were aware that there were two trained armed guerillas in your house, why was it that Serg. Pretorius was allowed to enter the house alone where he was shot dead?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Why is that?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Please come back to the question, Mr Richardson. We have had complaints from Serg. Pretorius's sister. There is something very strange that took place at your house. The house is surrounded by a large number of policemen. Yet one policemen who happens to be your handler, go in alone and is found dead on the kitchen floor. How did this happened?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Were you present when this attack on your house took place?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: What did you see?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you see Serg. Pretorius enter your house?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any reason why Serg. Pretorius entered your house alone when the house was surrounded by a large number of policemen?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Will you please tell us the reason?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Please, Mr Richardson. You've already told us you informed the police that there were two armed trained guerillas in your house. You've already told us that amongst other people, Serg. Pretorius was your handler. You've already told us that there were enough policemen to fill Orlando stadium who surrounded your house. Why did Serg. Pretorius entered your house alone? You were outside with your Valiant as you said.

There has been a suggestion that Serg. Pretorius was silent. This is a complaint that we've got from his sister which complaint to our Human Right Violation Committee. Do you believe that it's possible that Serg. Pretorius was silenced because he knew too much from the information you gave him?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: We have had a very long five minutes. Okay Mr Richardson, thank you.

MR VALLY: I should may be we should take a break and have a few questions to ask after lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: We will resume at two o'clock.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. No let's try again now. Order. Thank you. Mr Hanif. Sorry just before you start. We are clearly moving at a particular pace here after Mr Richardson, we have three police officers, two on recall and we think coming back at the end of those three witnesses, who should call it a day, and have Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela start tomorrow at half past eight, and before I ask Hanif, I had intended welcoming my - our colleague Dumisa Ntsebeza, because it is special, I mean, although we have got so many things, he has been living under a very heavy cloud with the kind of allegations that were made against him and we obviously expected that Judge Goldstone would vindicate him, but we needed to have that independent vindication and the Dumisa, where are you? All right, when he comes, I will have to repeat myself. Right, Hanif.

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop.

Mr Richardson, we were busy with the attack on your house on the 9th of November 1988.

MR CHAIRPERSON: Look here, we start at two o'clock, but because it's a special day for you, I wanted this hearing to share our joy at the vindication that you have been given, and the Commission been given by the Goldstone Commission of Inquiry, and we welcome you back, and I'm glad that cloud has been lifted. I will clap you, just a small clap. Thank you.

MR VALLY: Mr Richardson, were busy when your house was attacked on the 9th of November 1988, when the two ANC guerillas were killed as well as Serg. Pretorius. What I asked you was, whether you aware that Serg. Pretorius was killed in you kitchen, because he needed to be silenced. What is your response to that please?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Why would you say that?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's take this a bit further. You earlier mentioned that you were present at a meeting between Mr Paul Erasmus and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. Can you give details of this meeting?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Mr Richardson, can you tell us when this meeting was suppose to have taken place, and where?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Was it before you were arrested, after your house was attacked, or was it after?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Mr Richardson, you have already given us evidence as to when your met Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, when you were employed as a coach for the football club. You indicated when that took place. I believe it was late 1986. Can you tell us when was this meeting suppose to have taken place, at least give us a year, if there were more than one meetings, please indicate that to us.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Where did the meetings take place?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Which house was this, in Orlando, or in Diepkloof?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: You've mentioned in one of this meetings that Mr Erasmus pointed you out as an informer to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. Did she confront you with this issue?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Can you tell me if in your presence, besides the one incident that you've mentioned that youíve pointed out, can you remember any other issue that was discussed at a meeting where you were present between Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mr Erasmus?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: I want to give me specific issues which you aware of, which were discussed.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any other issues that were discussed between Mr Erasmus and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela other than the fact that he pointed you out as an informer to her?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's move on to Mr Moodley. What's your basis for saying that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela knew Mr Moodley even before you were in prison for the murder of Mr Stompie Seipei.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Is that the basis for your allegation regarding Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mr Moodley. Something that Mr Moodley allegedly told you whilst you were in prison, and this was after the trial when you were charged for the murder on Mr Stompie Seipei.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: This was in 1995. This is I say 1995, because this is when he in terms of our information saw you in prison regarding the issue of Dr Asvat, as well as Mr Sono and Mr Shabalala disappearance. Is there any other time before 1995 which give you a reason to make this allegation. Is there any other incident which took place before the time he saw you in prison?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: I just want to get this name clear. You said, Johnny de Baird. Johnny Bird.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Johnny Bird. Fine. Did you ever see Mr Moodley as Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you ever see Mr Moodley as Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house? It is a yes or a no.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR VALLY: Which house, Diepkloof or Orlando?

MR RICHARDSON: I saw him at Orlando-West.

MR VALLY: Did you see them having a conversation?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you over hear the conversation?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what they were talking about, and be specific please.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: So you heard this conversation between Mr Moodley and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about a trip to Transkei?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you hear any other conversation?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's go on to Sonwabo. Do you know what happened to him?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you aware that he was killed?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: You mentioned that you knew Mr Johannes Mbatha also know as Themba. Do you recall that?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Mr Mbatha made a statement while he was detained in terms of section 29. I will read you what he said about you and the Stompie murder, and I'm starting to quote. This is from paragraph 30 of the documents we have handed to Mr Semenya, Page 7: After the Stompie affair received media coverage, Jerry Richardson, Soccer coach reported to W Mandela that he and a man called Sledge had killed and buried Stompie. At the time of the reports, I was present myself, Jerry, Sledge and W Mandela was in the study of her house when Jerry reported this to Winnie. W Mandela was upset and wanted to know from Jerry why he had not told her before, and after she had told him not to take Stompie away.

What is your response to this statement, allegedly made by Themba?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you saying that this statement is true, or not true?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: So, in terms of this statement, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not aware that you killed Stompie, and was upset that you had not told her before, after she had told you not to take Stompie away. Is that true?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Please, Mr Richardson, a minute ago you told me it was true, and no you're saying it's a lie. Do you want to read this statement yourself, and want to give me a clear answer, whether this allegation allegedly made by Themba, I say allegedly, because this is a statement taken from him while you were detained in terms of Section 29. Do you want to read it yourself and give us a clear answer, whether this allegation is true or not true?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: I'll start off this quote: After the Stompie affair received media coverage, Jerry Richardson, Soccer coach, reported to W Mandela, that he and a man called Sledge, had killed and buried Stompie. At the time of this report, I was present myself, Jerry, Sledge and W Mandela was in the study of her house when this was reported to Winnie. W Mandela was upset, and wanted to know from Jerry why he had not told her before, and after she had told him not to take Stompie away.

Let me break it up. He said you were present at a meeting. Themba, yourself, Sledge and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. You and a man called Sledge, reported to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that you have killed and buried Stompie. After your report, she was upset and wanted to know from you why you had not told her before, after she had told you not to take Stompie away.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: We know Themba is dead. I'm putting it to you, because he said you were at that meeting. Is his alleged report of that meeting, true, or not true?

MR RICHARDSON: (no translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richardson, (no translation)

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: If such a meeting take place where you reported back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, in the presence of Themba, where you reported back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about Stompie, in the presence of Themba. Let's go on to one last issue.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's go on to one last issue. In the trial involving yourself, you stated that at a present period in December, 1988, that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not present at a house in Diepkloof when the whole issue of the kidnapping of the four young men from the manse, and the subsequent assaults took place. Do you still maintain the same story today, that you told the Court at the time of your trial?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Why did you tell the Court that at the time?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Why were you not free to talk in your own trial when you possibly facing a very long sentence, if not a death sentence, didn't you think you should talk the truth to save yourself?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. I have asked for order!

MR VALLY: Is your evidence today, especially the evidence which is allegedly implicating Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and a number of criminal activities the truth, or merely an act of revenge, because you feel that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not paying you enough attention, whilst you were in prison?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Is what you have told us today, the truth or not?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Richardson. No more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SEMENYA: Mr Richardson, the amount of R10 000-00. How was that calculated? Was it R5 000-00 ahead of the killer?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: No, what I mean is, they were paying you money owed to you. Is that right?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: You haven't received the money.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Mr Richardson (no translation)

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: Mr Richardson, the security police owe you R10 000-00.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: Did you say to the security police, you will not co-operate unless they pay you ten thousand rand.

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: Was Serg. Pretorius your handler?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: What way you to receive that there were killers in your house?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: What in return were you to get for (indistinct) that information?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: Yes, that's what I'm asking. Is ten thousand rand calculated in terms of the number of people you sold out?

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: What is so difficult?

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

MR SEMENYA: I'm referring to your discussion with Pretorius. Not to with Senior Superintendent Moodley. When you agree with Pretorius, would it be five thousand rand for a (indistinct) or not?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: But you just told us Mr Richardson, and I want to go forward, that you agree to that in exchange for that information you're going to be paid ten thousand rand. Am I right?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Order please! Please can you co-operate with the Commission. You're no co-operating with him, but with us, because we are trying to - Please can you just understand, and it doesn't help you ...

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Richardson ...

I have tried very hard can you just try to do that. Can you have another shot.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Richardson, you did tell us, did you not, that the amount of ten thousand rand was agreed between yourself and Pretorius in exchange for the information you gave him?

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Were you to get anything in exchange of giving Pretorius information about the killers?

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: When did you, in terms of date become a police informant?

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: When did you for the first time agreed to Pretorius that you gave him information in exchange of buying of cars?

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to give us the month?

MR RICHARDSON: March.

MR SEMENYA: You've also told us that Pretorius who was silenced, did you mean he was killed deliberately?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: By whom?

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Are you saying there was a plan to kill Pretorius on that day in your house?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Who has made that plan.

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Where was the plan made.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Semenya. You don't have to worry about ..

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Order, thank you!

MR SEMENYA: Where was the plan made Mr Richardson.

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Who was present when the plan was made to kill Pretorius?

MR RICHARDSON: HT Moodley.

MR SEMENYA: Who else?

MR RICHARDSON: Erasmus.

MR SEMENYA: Who else?

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: Were you in Pretoria when they made this plan?

MR RICHARDSON: No translation.

MR SEMENYA: It is 1995 when he tells you, or what year?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: But you are in prison this time, so did he tell you that they had made the plan in 1987 when this people got killed in your house?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: No, Iím trying to understand. Was he telling this information about events of 1987 when he would have had plans to kill Serg. Pretorius?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Let me try and cover with you what appears in your amnesty application.

It appears there that you have killed (indistinct) in December of 1989.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Is that date correct?

MR RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: Is that date correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Iím not sure but if there is a date weíll go by that date.

MR SEMENYA: Now this is your application Sir, itís not mine.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is it.

MR SEMENYA: And you killed Sono and Shabalala in October 1988, is that right?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, thatís right.

MR SEMENYA: Now, I donít understand this, did you kill Sono and Shabalala before the cadres got killed in your house?

MR RICHARDSON: One can be mistaken.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible]

MR RICHARDSON: No English translation.

MR SEMENYA: Can I solicit your assistance in solving it then? According to this date, you killed Sono and Shabalala before the cadres are killed in your house.

MR RICHARDSON: I donít have any information thereof.

MR SEMENYA: Did you kill them before Sergeant Pretorius was killed?

MR RICHARDSON: I bear no information as far as that is concerned.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] did you kill them?

MR RICHARDSON: I have no information thereof.

MR SEMENYA: Have you applied for amnesty for the killing of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, Iíve applied for amnesty for Joyce, Sizwe and Stompie and the rest of those other names.

MR SEMENYA: Have you applied for amnesty for the killing Sibuniso Shabalala and Lolo Sono, thatís my question?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I have applied for amnesty with regard to those.

MR SEMENYA: I must ask you Sir, did you kill them before Sergeant Pretorius was killed in your house?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít remember.

MR SEMENYA: Can you help us here? According to your evidence, anybody who is branded an informer is severely assaults and/or killed, is that right? - by the soccer team?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is right.

MR SEMENYA: And according to you, you have been branded an informer by Sonwabo, is that right?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, thatís right.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] according to you, by Erasmus, is that right? - or Moodley, one of the two.

MR RICHARDSON: That is not complete, please mention all of them.

MR SEMENYA: Can you help me with the other people who branded you an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: ...[indistinct] did you ...[indistinct] now? Did you mention Paul Erasmus? Did you mention T H Moodley? The fourth one, Iím not sure, Iím still investigating that.

MR SEMENYA: How come Mandela United Football Club didnít kill you for being an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: This football I have here, I worked with it or I used it in Pretoria and that is why Iím here today.

MR SEMENYA: Can you tell us more?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: Did the members of the Mandela United Football Club assault you?

MR RICHARDSON: No, they never assaulted me.

MR SEMENYA: Why donít assault you or kill you because you have been branded an informer?

MR RICHARDSON: I was first labelled as a sell-out by Sonwabo and the next time itís here in Commission, itís only Semenya who is capitalising on that and the R10.0000.

MR SEMENYA: No, I thought you are saying that once somebody is called an informer they would be killed, how come you were not assaulted and/or killed by the members of the football team?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít know.

MR SEMENYA: Let us talk about Cebekhulu for a little while. According to the evidence, Cebekhulu was also said to have been sodomised when he was brought to the house, is that right?

MR RICHARDSON:

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And Pelo and some of them were severely assaulted for being sodomised - according to the allegation?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is so.

MR SEMENYA: Why was Cebekhulu not assaulted?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít have any knowledge thereof.

MR SEMENYA: No, but youíre assaulting them, why didnít you assault Cebekhulu?

MR RICHARDSON: Iíve been convicted for four cases and Cebekhulu did not lay any charges against me.

MR SEMENYA: Why did you not assault Cebekhulu for allowing himself to be sodomised because that was the allegation against the rest?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít know.

MR SEMENYA: Why did you allow Cebekhulu to assault the others then?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít know why I allowed him.

MR SEMENYA: Was it - and you can correct me here, was it because you and him were giving information to the police?

MR RICHARDSON: Please repeat your question.

MR RICHARDSON: Was the reason that Cebekhulu was not assaulted, was because you and him were giving information to the police?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít have any information.

MR SEMENYA: But why donít you have information - Iím trying to have you assist us?

MR RICHARDSON: I am trying my best as well but Iím pleased because you are making Katiza as an example and I donít have Katiza in my notes or in my book - I have Katizaís book about his journey, I donít even read it - for your information and today Iím thinking of even burning it.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please

MR SEMENYA: I want to read you a section appearing in the notes by the police officers on page 16, there is a paragraph which is in Afrikaans and ...[inaudible] it says:

"Richardson is willing to indicate the place where Lolo was buried. According to him, he was murdered in a similar manner to that of Stompie Sepei and Cebekhulu had also been present"

Did you tell the police that Cebekhulu was present when either Lolo was buried or Stompie was killed?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít have any information.

MR SEMENYA: This fanciful answer of yours - did you give this information to the police or not?

MR RICHARDSON: Do you mean Pretorius?

MR SEMENYA: Did you give this information to the police or not?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: I will read to you again what appears on page 14 of the same document:

"According to Mr Richardson, he had been an informant for the former security police. At a certain stage he provided information to the security branch which indicated that two trained MK soldiers were hiding away at his home. A promise of R10.000-00 was then made to him should his information prove to be true.

...{inaudible]

MR RICHARDSON: I donít know that, is my thumb print there or is my signature on that document?

MR RICHARDSON: ...[inaudible] told us you said some of these things. It continues to say:

"Stompie Sepei visited him at home later on the same day, he also saw these two MK members"

So here you say that the Stompie Sepei came the same day these two cadres were killed, thatís right is it not?

MR RICHARDSON: I have no knowledge thereof.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] if Stompie came to your house on this fateful day, what do you mean - you donít have knowledge?

MR RICHARDSON: I say I donít know. I will keep on saying: "I donít know, I donít know".

MR SEMENYA: So, youíre not prepared to answer my questions?

MR RICHARDSON: I did say to you that I didnít want to answer any questions and Iím telling you straight now, that I donít want to give answers when I can only answer to George Bizos, not to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Mr Richardson, I donít know what to say to you now because what you are doing now is not assisting even you and us. You see, we canít let go of you because we have this information that we want - invaluable information that we want. Please acknowledge the fact that Mr Semenya is a judicial officer and heís doing his duty, heís not just sitting there because he is Semenya and he is Black. No English translation. And can you try and help us and answer the questions.

MR RICHARDSON: Mr Chairperson, I am requesting from you directly now - Iím saying that I wonít answer any questions put by Semenya. You can go ahead and take drastic steps against me, I wonít reply to anything he will say from now onwards because there is no truth in the whole thing. He reads the paper, why would one read the paper? Please go on ahead and take steps against me, Iím not answering him anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

MR RICHARD: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, why donít you? Letís have a 5 or 10 minute adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Minister?

DR BORAINE: Which one?

CHAIRPERSON: Please just sit down, thank you. Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Richardson ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

INTERPRETER: The speakerís microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Was Stompie Sepei in your house on the day the two cadres were killed?

MR RICHARDSON: No, he never came to my house.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to give us any reason why Colonel Hesslinga would say you said that to him?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít know.

MR SEMENYA: You canít think of any reason why?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I donít have any reason.

CHAIRPERSON: There are two or three seats up here in front.

MR SEMENYA: The report goes on to say:

"It was then generally accepted that Stompie had provided the information to the security branch and that that had been the main reason for the killing of Stompie"

MR SEMENYA: That the reason Stompie was killed was because he had given information to the security police.

MR RICHARDSON: I have no knowledge.

MR SEMENYA: That is not the reason.

MR RICHARDSON: I donít have any knowledge.

MR SEMENYA: You lack knowledge of what?

MR RICHARDSON: What youíve read to me just now, I bear no knowledge.

MR SEMENYA: You donít know why Stompie was killed?

MR RICHARDSON: I know why Stompie was killed.

MR SEMENYA: Did you say this to the police though?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít remember.

MR SEMENYA: If they have it the way they do, they would have been quoting you correctly?

MR RICHARDSON: I could quote them right or wrong and refer them to my records in the Court of Law.

MR SEMENYA: Earlier in your evidence though, you say that there were two young men that came to your house before Lolo and Sibuniso, is that right?

MR RICHARDSON: Please repeat your question?

MR SEMENYA: Earlier in your evidence you say that there were two boys - as you call them, who came to your before Lolo and Sibuniso.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, there were two boys who came.

MR SEMENYA: One of them was Stompie, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: No, thereís nothing like that.

MR SEMENYA: Who were they?

MR RICHARDSON: Those are the two that I knew and, that I spoke to. I heard ..[inaudible] telling me that one of those boys is his brother - pointing at one of the boys - the two, Lolo and Shabalala.

MR SEMENYA: Let us talk a little bit about the team. In a statement given on the 20th of February Ď89 and which has your thumb print - I donít know whether I should give you a copy to verify.

MR RICHARDSON: That will please me.

MR SEMENYA: Do you recognise that statement Sir?

MR RICHARDSON: I was double-checking on the thumb print.

MR SEMENYA: Whatís the answer to my question?

MR RICHARDSON: I saw the thumb print.

MR SEMENYA: Is the statement yours Sir?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: So you mean the thumb print is not yours?

MR RICHARDSON: You see, I want you to say that so I can deny it.

MR SEMENYA: Is the thumb print yours Sir?

MR RICHARDSON: No, it is not my thumb print.

MR SEMENYA: So, the statement is not yours?

MR RICHARDSON: If the thumb print is not mine, itís obvious that the statement is not mine as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just find out from yourselves, was this a statement that Mr Richardson gave?

MR PIGOU: Chair, itís a custody statement taken - I believe, by Lieutenant Dempsey on the 20th of February 1989.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chair, if I may interject. With the greatest respect to Mr Semenya, I doubt whether any one of us could recognise our own thumb print so itís not as if itís a hand signature.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but does he recall or can he recognise the statement?

MR PIGOU: Chair, perhaps I can help - page 4 of the statement and perhaps we can show this to Mr Richardson, there is a signature which says: "Jerry" on it - perhaps if we can show that to him.

MR RICHARDSON: The signature is almost close to mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Itís quite important Mr Richardson.

Can you show him a copy of the particular statement and ...[inaudible]

Do you remember submitting a statement to Colonel Dempsey?

MR RICHARDSON: From 1989 I submitted many statements.

CHAIRPERSON: No, itís just a question and Iím sure youíll be able to say: "Yes, I have given Colonel Dempsey a statement", you should be in a position to say that.

MR RICHARDSON: Colonel Dempsey once accompanied me to the wedding ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No English translation.

MR RICHARDSON: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: ... No English translation statement on that particular date - I donít know, what is the date - September 1989?

MR PIGOU: Itís the 20th of February and I believe itís the day after Mr Richardson was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the date there Mr Semenya?

MR RICHARDSON: 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.

MR SEMENYA: The date is given as 20 February of Ď89.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the day on which you were arrested - 20th February 1989? Do you remember submitting such a statement?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I donít remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember which date you were arrested on?

MR RICHARDSON: I was arrested on the 19th of February 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, and then on the 20th ... No English translation.

MR RICHARDSON: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the statement or not?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, it is from him, it is the one.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the statement from Captain Dempsey? You see, even the signature that you say is almost like yours, it is yours and the thumb print is yours as well.

MR RICHARDSON: If itís from Captain Dempsey, thatís true.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the statement Mr Semenya is referring to.

MR SEMENYA: On page 3 of the statement you give an answer at the top of the page and you say:

"I live at a certain place - at Winnie Mandelaís home since the 25th of December 1988. I trained the team from January 1986 until June/July of 1986"

And thereís something I canít read.

"The players were then arrested by the police, subsequently I did not train them at any time"

Is that correct, that beyond Ď86 there is no soccer that is played?

MR RICHARDSON: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: And you were no longer a coach?

MR RICHARDSON: I was still a coach.

MR SEMENYA: No, I mean coach of this team because itís not there the police have arrested all the players?

MR RICHARDSON: That is so, they were arrested.

MR SEMENYA: In the statement you go and you are asked:

"Do you know James Sepei, Stompie"? - Answer: "Yes I know him"

Question: "When did you last see him"? - Answer: "I last saw him on the 3rd of January 1989 at Winnieís home in Diepkloof"

You said this, did you not?

MR RICHARDSON: That is so, I know it.

MR SEMENYA: But when I look at your amnesty application, you would have killed Stompie on the 2nd of January Ď89?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít have any knowledge.

MR SEMENYA: No, but you killed him so you must know.

MR RICHARDSON: That is true.

MR SEMENYA: Was it on the 2nd - you saw him on the 3rd at Mrs Mandelaís house?

MR RICHARDSON: Please repeat your question? I donít remember.

MR SEMENYA: On your amnesty application you say this about Miss Zwane, you say:

"She was picked up from Mrs Mandelaís house by myself and a person called Killer and we took her to Orlando West where I held her while Killer slit her throat"

Was it you or Killer who slit her throat?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: No, on one version itís you whoís doing it, on the other version itís Killer and I want to know which is true?

MR RICHARDSON: We are talking about a dead person and about the souls that we took out from a person.

MR SEMENYA: I lost your answer there Sir.

MR RICHARDSON: We killed Kuki.

MR SEMENYA: Who slit her throat, is it you or Killer?

MR RICHARDSON: Itís me.

MR SEMENYA: Now why do you say in your amnesty application itís Killer while you were just holding?

MR RICHARDSON: I am telling the Commission and thereís truth here in the Commission, this is why Iím admitting to it.

MR SEMENYA: So your amnesty application is untrue, is that right?

MR RICHARDSON: Thereís truth in it for the fact that you referring to it.

MR SEMENYA: Let me read to you what you say to Colonel Hesslinga - and I believe you have told us that he would have been writing what you were telling him correctly, on the first paragraph on page 27 - Iíll quote just in the middle of the paragraph:

"Jerry also informed us that Shakes who Mrs Mandelaís chauffeur or car driver, had also been present at the murder of Kuki"

MR RICHARDSON: There is nothing like that.

MR SEMENYA: Why would Colonel Hesslinga say you said it?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít know.

MR SEMENYA: And in the same breath it is recorded here:

"Jerry also informed me that he had not yet been able to make contact with Mrs Falati but as soon as he should manage to make contact with her, he would arrange for us to meet with her and talk to her"

Did you say that part to the Colonel?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít remember.

MR PIGOU: Sorry Mr Semenya, just for the record - the entries are not Colonel Hesslingaís entries, theyíre Lieutenant Kruger.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you.

Would you have said that to Colonel Kruger?

MR RICHARDSON: Please repeat it.

MR SEMENYA:

"Jerry in addition informed me that he had not yet been able to contact Mrs Falati"

Did you say that to Kruger?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít remember.

MR SEMENYA: While speaking about Miss Falati, can I give you this document and ask you whether youíre able to recognise it?

Chairperson, the letter is in Zulu and we have attempted to get it translated and copies made.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to identify the letter?

CHAIRPERSON: Have we got copies here?

MR RICHARDSON: You see this one, Iím the one who wrote it in person - I can even take it right inside my pocket. Things were bad in Pretoria in 1991 when I wrote this letter - I was faced with the death sentence then.

MR SEMENYA: In one of the paragraphs - translated here, you say the following:

"Iím penniless and I have nothing, you donít even send people to come and visit me. What has happened now, no-one comes even my Mrs Xoliswa and my daughter"

I see you are laughing at me.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, Iím laughing because thatís the letter you reading to me and Iím laughing. Consider the situation which I was subjected to, how would you write a letter in that condition yourself?

MR SEMENYA: Has the letter been translated correctly? - thatís what youíre saying.

MR RICHARDSON: You see, when youíre referring to Falati - talking about Falati and Nomzamu, there is a difference between the two. I think you have the letters I wrote to Nomzamu in your possession - maybe you are not yet there.

MR SEMENYA: Why do you call Xoliswa:

"My Mrs Xoliswa and my daughter"?

MR RICHARDSON: Iím proud of Xoliswa - she just came once at the condensed cell and thatís when I wrote the letter with the hope that there will be changes and sheíll start visiting me but to no avail.

MR SEMENYA: Iíll give it my last shot, why do you describe Miss Xoliswa Falati as:

"My Mrs Xoliswa"?

MR RICHARDSON: You see Mr Semenya, you know what, when you are chewing your gum you use both gums and you use both cheeks - she visited me when I was faced with death and she was with another girl whom she introduced to me as a comrade and recently she came to Leeuwkop Prison.

MR SEMENYA: Would I be correct or wrong to infer that the letter suggests you had a relationship with Miss Falati?

MR RICHARDSON: I really do not know.

MR SEMENYA: You donít know whether you had a relationship with Miss Falati? - now seriously as an adult man.

MR RICHARDSON: You see, Sister Falati - I donít even remember dreaming about her once and requesting from her.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, order. Order please.

MR RICHARDSON: Mr Semenya, are you satisfied or do you still want me to carry on about Falati?

CHAIRPERSON: I think youíve answered the question.

MR RICHARDSON: Thank you Mr Commissioner.

MR SEMENYA: Again it appears in the same line:

"My Xoliswa Falati and my daughter"

Are you referring to - let me ask it differently, who are you referring to when you say -

"Your daughter"?

Iím referring to Lena Richardson.

MR SEMENYA: According to Mr Moodley - Senior Superintendent Moodley - maybe let me just ...[indistinct]

"The body of Kuki Zwane was amongst injuries, with a bullet wound"

It doesnít seem to appear in the way you described her murder.

MR RICHARDSON: Mr Moodley in future, will be my co-accused - whatever he said, thatís why heís attached his address there - maybe in the very same case or with regard to other matters.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to put it in any simpler terms as I donít follow what youíre saying.

MR RICHARDSON: I think Mr Moodley - as time goes on, maybe the year 2016, heíll be my co-accused, heíll be accused number 3 and Iíll be accused number 4.

MR SEMENYA: If he tells us that the body of Kuki Zwane was found with a bullet wound, would he be correct?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: Now, do you seriously know where the bodies of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala are hidden?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I know, I can take you there.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter canít follow what the speaker is saying.

MR SEMENYA: Why would you hit Senior Superintendent Moodley now?

MR RICHARDSON: Please donít decorate this - he has written H T Moodley, he hasnít written Superintendent.

MR SEMENYA: Why would you hit him?

MR RICHARDSON: Because I canít get the place that I pointed out at an earlier stage - we canít get the bodies and I would start hitting him.

MR SEMENYA: Would you hit him at the instruction of Mrs Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: You see now, I assault people - even in jail, I even do have a record of assaulting people in jail. I no longer eat in jail and Iím growing thinner by the day.

MR SEMENYA: Are you saying that when you assault outside, itís at the instruction of Mrs Mandela and when you do it inside, it is not?

MR RICHARDSON: Sheís not in jail but if she was in jail she probably would instruct me.

MR SEMENYA: You tell us that you are involved with a highjacking of a bakery with Katiza Cebekhulu.

MR RICHARDSON: I told you that we highjacked a bakery together with Katiza Cebekhulu. When you go to Pretoria, I stole from a certain company - thatís the way it is.

MR SEMENYA: No, Iím trying to understand. Did you and Katiza highjack a bakery car?

MR RICHARDSON: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: What year?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít remember.

MR SEMENYA: Was it an instruction of Mrs Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: So, you were involved in criminal conduct on your own ...[intervention]

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Without having obtained the instructions of Mrs Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: What other acts of criminal activity did you commit which were not instructed by her?

MR RICHARDSON: I stole blankets from Makro, I wasnít instructed by Mrs Mandela.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, order.

MR SEMENYA: I have listened to your evidence carefully and on more than three occasions you were asked whether your conduct was politically inspired and you vehemently said no, you were just associated with soccer and no politics, is that right?

MR RICHARDSON: Thatís true.

MR SEMENYA: Why do you apply for amnesty?

MR RICHARDSON: Thatís a question, Iím trying my luck.

CHAIRPERSON: Order, order please. Please just settle - there is some honesty.

MR SEMENYA: So, would your luck be improved by for instance, stating that you were doing this on the instruction of Mrs Mandela, would that improve your luck?

MR RICHARDSON: No English translation.

MR SEMENYA: I put it to you, thatís why you are saying the things youíre saying because youíre trying to improve your luck. Whatís your response?

MR RICHARDSON: Iím just checking my briefcase because I want to give you a book or a letter.

CHAIRPERSON: Order. Mr Semenya, can I just find out how much more you have?

MR SEMENYA: I wonít be long Chairperson, under 5 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Iím not trying to limit you but I think that we are having a bit of a problem.

MR SEMENYA: I understand.

MR RICHARDSON: Hereís the last one, this is the last one - I think youíre looking for more information and I think this will help you. That last one - I heard you telling the Commissioner that this is the message that came from Leeuwkop, it was 10 past 2 when you uttered those words and I told my attorney that.

CHAIRPERSON: Iím not sure that you have - please just follow your line of questioning and perhaps donít get distracted.

MR SEMENYA: Was your answer that mentioning Mrs Mandela would improve your luck? - as the person who would have given instructions.

MR RICHARDSON: Could you please return those photos that I gave to you. Can you see the people who are in those photos, Ronnie Skekune and Shoes?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richardson, Iíve spoken to you previously - if a question is posed and the question is straightforward, we would request you to please answer that question. You personally said that you had no political motive or object to commit the crimes. Now the question is very straightforward, we want to know - you said you applied for amnesty and you were trying your luck, now the question is: "Did you think that implicating Mrs Mandela in all these deeds would also improve your standing with the Truth Commission"?

Could you please just give us a straightforward answer - yes or no, whether she instructed you to commit these crimes or she didnít - please do not waste time. We will have a look at those photos, thank you. You are playing now, could you please stop making a circus of the whole thing.

Iím very, very patient - weíve been given work to do and I urge you to answer the questions posed to you. This is not a circus but some have already referred to it as a circus and those people will later say that it is a real circus when they see you acting in the manner that you do.

MR RICHARDSON: I beg your forgiveness Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to put it again so that - try to answer the question.

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: Well, I just want to finally put it to you that your suggestion that all of these activities were done at the instruction of Mrs Mandela, itís - as you put it, trying your luck, whatís your response?

MR RICHARDSON: I deny that, thereís absolutely no truth in that statement.

MR SEMENYA: According to the information of Mamasela, the bodies of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala were incinerated.

MR RICHARDSON: Excuse me?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker repeat?

MR SEMENYA: Could it be true?

DR BORAINE: Iím sorry to interrupt councillor, but could you tell us the source of that information - the quotation from Mamasela, we havenít it in front of us, thank you.

MR SEMENYA: No, this is the information from Mr Mamasela.

DR BORAINE: Iím just wondering from which source, is it written, is it in radio, television or ...[intervention]

MR SEMENYA: No, itís in a consultation with me Deputy Chairperson.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Mr Semenya, did you take a statement from Mr Mamasela when he was in consultation with you and if so, would it be possible for the Commission to get hold of that?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson no, unfortunately I have hand written notes, I did not take a statement from him.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: It might just be a help for the sake of the record that if you were able - you can say no, itís all very privileged, do you want to say that?

MR SEMENYA: Well, my notes will be privileged Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What I was going to suggest is, if you were able to photocopy it - Iím asking - you could say: "Itís privileged" and then Iíll have to consult a little later. What I was saying was that it would be helpful if we could have it there as something that you say you got from your client.

MR SEMENYA: I do have my notes and I would contend that theyíre privileged Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Would that information be correct or incorrect Sir?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít know.

MR SEMENYA: I want to finally read you one of your statements. May you be shown a statement dated the 28th of July 1997 May the witness be shown the statement ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Could you indicate which statement youíre referring to?

MR SEMENYA: It must be a statement given to the members of the TRC, dated ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Whose statement is that?

MR SEMENYA: Jerry Richardsonís.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see the statement before you?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I can see it Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it yours?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, itís mine Mr Chair.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] to read a phrase in it?

MR RICHARDSON: Please Iím requesting that my photos come back to me.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] his property?

MR RICHARDSON: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: No English translation.

MR RICHARDSON: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold onto them, thank you.

Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Maybe just to lead my reading of this statement, which persons - as a member of the Mandela Football Club as you put it, were killed first? - person or persons?

MR RICHARDSON: Could you please repeat.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] that you killed in your life?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít know where to start.

MR SEMENYA: You no longer know who you killed first in your life?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít remember.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] statement - I take it that it is page 4 as theyíre not numbered, youíre saying that the word: "dump" had acquired a meaning that somebody must be killed for playing dirty tricks - according to the chronology of the events, nobody was dead by this time. Are you able to respond?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: What was your answer?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I have knowledge - I donít respond.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, we will take the adjournment until ...[inaudible]

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

 

 

ON RESUMPTION

JERRY RICHARDSON: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Strictly 5 minutes, strictly no compassion whatsoever. Kindly settle, thank you very much. Mr Soller?

MR SOLLER: Mr Commissioner, Peter Soller on behalf of Mr Mbatha.

Mr Richardson, youíve been - here I am - youíve been sitting ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Iím sorry, can you just settle because the witness has difficulty hearing the questions, thank you very much.

MR SOLLER: Mr Richardson, youíve been sitting for approximately 7 days in the well of this auditorium next to a gentleman by the name of Mbatha and another gentleman by the name Dlamini, had you ever met those two gentlemen before this hearing?

CHAIRPERSON: Just switch on your - thank you.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I do.

MR SOLLER: Iím sorry Mr Chairperson, I didnít get an answer to that.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] please.

MR SOLLER: Mr Richardson, do you know a lady by the name of Mrs Phumlile Dlamini?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Thereís a lot of outside noise - the traffic, and with your passing it gets a great deal more difficult. May I just appeal again for order.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson, it appears as if the sound is not coming through Mr Sollerís headphones, maybe he should exchange with his clerk or his colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you all right now?

MR SOLLER: Thank you Mr Chairperson, but I have no further questions to ask.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SOLLER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson, just a couple of questions - sorry, the name is Michael Miller.

Just a couple of questions Mr Richardson. Firstly, I appeared last week for a gentleman by the name of Jabu Sithole who you have referred to in your evidence, you say that Jabu Sithole was arrested and charged together with you, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR MILLER: For what - the murder of Stompie?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít know what charges were laid against Jabu but I think it was four counts.

MR MILLER: ...[inaudible] event, he says he didnít do anything wrong and he doesnít know why he was charged, do you know? Are you able to comment on that?

MR RICHARDSON: I was arrested with Jabu Sithole and I donít think he would have been arrested if he didnít do anything.

MR MILLER: Where did he live? Did he live in the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, can I ask the police - Iím being disturbed by all of that singing, can they go and sing a further distance away from here? Can the police ensure that please?

MR MILLER: Well, sorry Chairperson.

He says that he lived in Mrs Mandelaís house in Orlando and that after it was burnt down he moved out, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR MILLER: Now, I just want to finally ask you a couple of questions about Tulani Dlamini whom I also appear for. Now, you are aware that Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat was killed by Dlamini and by Mbatha, is that correct?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct, I do know that.

MR MILLER: Were you at any time - prior to the murder of Doctor Asvat, party to any plans to murder him or did you hear such plans being discussed?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I wasnít party to it but I saw them or met them after they had done that or killed Doctor Asvat.

MR MILLER: But did you hear discussion in Mrs Mandelaís home between her and any other person about the plans to kill Doctor Asvat?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR MILLER: Who introduced Dlamini and Mbatha to Mrs Mandela, do you know?
MR RICHARDSON: No, I donít.

MR MILLER: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MILLER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Miss Sita?

MRS SITA: Iím Mrs Sita for John Morgan.

Mr Richardson, my client John Morgan testified on Monday last week that on the fourth day - after the assaults took place on the four youths, Mrs Mandela instructed him: "Go dump that dog". He went to the back room and he saw Stompie Sepei lying there in that room with a pool of blood around his neck, what is your comment to that Sir?

MR RICHARDSON: John Morgan was giving evidence as to what he saw and if thatís what he says he saw, that is what he saw.

MRS SITA: Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS SITA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Kades?

MR KADES: Kades, on behalf of the Asvat family.

Mr Richardson, ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speakerís mike is not on.

MR KADES: As coach of the soccer team, were you paid a salary?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I wasnít paid.

MR KADES: What was your source of income during that period?

MR RICHARDSON: I was working at Plaza Rain.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible]

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR KADES: Now, youíve said that you visited Doctor Asvat on three occasions and the card that we have in our possession - the patientís card, shows that you visited him on the 26th and the 27th of January 1989, can you tell us when the third occasion was?

MR RICHARDSON: Could you please repeat the details on the card?

MR KADES: Maybe we can show you the card. Do you see that card, it has your name on it?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I can see my name.

MR KADES: And your address of: 9794A Orlando West?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR KADES: Now, you see that only two visits are recorded on that card, the one on the 26th of January and the one on the 27th of January and youíve told this Commission in your evidence in chief, that you went to Doctor Asvat on three occasions, when was the third occasion?

MR RICHARDSON: I went thrice, Iím very sure about that but I donít remember the date or the third occasion.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] the approximate time that you called on Doctor Asvat on the first occasion?

MR RICHARDSON: It was in the afternoon?

MR KADES: Late in the afternoon - after Mrs Sisulu had left? Did you find a nurse in the surgery?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít remember.

MR KADES: ....[inaudible] do you recall what time you went to the surgery - the 27th of January, the day Doctor Asvat was killed?

MR RICHARDSON: It was in the afternoon as well because the treatment that he gave me - he was supposed to give it to me and I had to sleep immediately thereafter.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] precisely the time on the second occasion?

MR RICHARDSON: I do not remember the time but I think it was anywhere between 4 and 5.

MR KADES: Are you aware as to whether the late Doctor Asvat ever came to the house of Mrs Mandela to examine Stompie, either on the 29th or the 30th of December of 1988?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít remember.

MR KADES: Did you not see him at the house on the day after Stompie was assaulted together with the other boys?

MR RICHARDSON: No English translation.

MR KADES: Were you ever present - either at the house or at the surgery of Doctor Asvat, when there was a row between himself and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR RICHARDSON: I wasnít present.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] by the police on the 9th of May of 1995, when Mr Moodley came to see you in jail at Leeuwkop, did he question you concerning your presence in the surgery of Doctor Asvat on the day that the doctor was killed - the 27th of January?

MR RICHARDSON: No, Moodley never asked me anything about Doctor Asvat.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] Mr Hesslinga, did he ask you?

MR RICHARDSON: Nobody ever asked me about Doctor Asvat.

MR KADES: Did you make any payment to Doctor Asvat in respect of the medical attention that he had given you?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I didnít pay.

MR KADES: Why didnít you pay?

MR RICHARDSON: Mummy told me that I should tell him that Iíd been referred by her.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] the murder of Doctor Asvat, did you come to the home of Doctor Asvat with Mrs Mandela to pay your respects to the family?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR KADES: Why didnít you tell anybody that you had been in Doctor Asvatís surgery that afternoon shortly before he was killed?

MR RICHARDSON: I didnít notify Asvatís family - Iím the one who gave them the message. I told Mummy as to what the doctor had said to me and that evening we went to Doctor Asvatís place and I told the Asvat family as to what had happened and I told them that we should pray so that the people get arrested.

MR KADES: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KADES

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Miss Hassen?

MISS HASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, Hasiena Hassen, I represent Charles Zwane also known as Bobo.

Mr Richardson, I just want to clarify one aspect - my client Bobo denied here at this Commission that he was a member of the Mandela United Football Club and now after hearing your evidence, he denies that he had a discussion with you and Sonwabo at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house, what do you have to say to this?

MR RICHARDSON: Iíll say what I know - Bobo called me - he sent his attorney to come and fetch me on death row, to go and give evidence and I refused because Bobo had 39 counts against him and he did not want to sit down with me and tell me as to what he had done because I believed that he had been helped by somebody to commit those crimes. He never played football but he was an MK member.

MISS HASSEN: Iím talking here now about when you were released - it was after your release and apparently this happened after three policemen had been killed and this discussion occurred Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís home, do you recall this incident? Do you have any comment on this?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít remember anything of that sort.

MISS HASSEN: ...[inaudible] confirm that Charles or Bobo was not a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I never included him in my line-up.

MISS HASSEN: Thank you Mr Richardson, no further questions Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS HASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Makanjee?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairman, Sanjay Makanjee for Mr Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe and Lerothodi Ikaneng.

Just to clarify something, both Mr - you described the assault on Lerothodi Ikaneng and both Mr Mekgwe and Mr Mono have said that they only participated in this assault because they were forced by you to do so, can you confirm that?

MR RICHARDSON: That is not true.

MR MAKANJEE: And one more question, you testified on the - you gave evidence regarding the assault on Mr Ikaneng but you failed to mention your reason behind the assault, can you clarify that for me?

MR RICHARDSON: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Donít listen to yourself when the interpretation goes on, just listen to the interpreter and give your answer.

MR RICHARDSON: Ikaneng knows why he was being assaulted and I also knew why he was being assaulted, he had been branded or labelled as an impimpie.

MR MAKANJEE: Who labelled Mr Ikaneng as an impimpie?

MR RICHARDSON: Mummy.

MR MAKANJEE: No further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKANJEE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr Jordi?

MR JORDI: Mr Chairman, I appear for the Sono family ...[inaudible] family and the Chile family.

Mr Richardson, am I correct in understanding that the Mandela United Football Club never really was closed down as such?

MR RICHARDSON: Even before I answer that question, I want to tell the Commission that you once came to see me ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] please, just answer ...[inaudible] Do you or donít you know whether the football club was completely closed down, yes or no?

MR RICHARDSON: No.

MR JORDI: So, thereís no truth in the statement that sometime in April or May 1987, the club was closed down and the relevant books and documentation were destroyed?

MR RICHARDSON: No, that is not true.

MR JORDI: In your statement that you gave to the TRC on the 28th of July 1997, you said that Guybon Kubheka, Ronnie Shoes, Sekekune and Sizwe Sithole were involved in the beatings of Lolo and Sibuniso whilst they were in the custody of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, can you tell me - do you know whether any other people were involved in that beating?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, there were people who were involved.

MR JORDI: Who else, other than Guybon, Shoes or Sizwe?

MR RICHARDSON: I do not remember their names but we were more than that.

MR JORDI: ...[inaudible] Do I understand you correctly, were Lolo and Sibuniso detained in the garage at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís home?

MR RICHARDSON: That is true.

MR JORDI: When you arrived back from the Protea Police Station - after you were released on or about the 24th of November 1988, you were accused of being an informer and an enquiry was conducted as to whether in fact you were an informer and youíve mentioned that you were very frightened, can you tell me was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela aware of the enquiry into your status? - as to whether or not you ...[inaudible]

MR RICHARDSON: When Paul Erasmus told Mummy that I was an informer, I heard with my own ears, nobody else told me.

CHAIRPERSON: One minute left.

MR JORDI: Okay.

Regarding the decision that was made to kill Lolo and Sibuniso - you said that that was made by Sonwabo, I just wanted to investigate the question of whether Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was aware of that decision, do you know whether she was?

MR RICHARDSON: I donít remember.

MR JORDI: One final question, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has said that Mr Sono only visited her house on one occasion when he brought arms back to her house for storage after Chepo - I think it was, was arrested by the security police following on the accident he had into the fence of the neighbour nearby Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house, did Mr Sono regularly visit Mrs Madikizela-Mandela or did he visit only on that one occasion?

MR RICHARDSON: I thought Mr Sono was Mrs Mandelaís friend because he frequented the place and he used to come and we would greet each other and then he would proceed into Mrs Mandelaís house.

MR JORDI: Thank you Mr Richardson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JORDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. One!

MR MGOJO: Iíll speak very bad that I have to ask only one question because I had seven questions lined up for you but because of the situation with time, Iíll ask only one question.

From what youíve already told us - what happened with regard to the football club, all the people who were killed were suspected of being informers, do you know what an informer is, heís what you call an impimpie. From this I claim that you were once labelled an informer up to an extent that they said they had some information that you were giving to Pretorius - you were even promised a sum of R10.000-00 in return for information that you would give to him.

Now, what I want to know - thereís a very big question mark, were you an expert in this field or amongst the people, that you were able to evade the punishment that was meted out to other people who were branded informers and you even went to the extent of killing some people who were called informers. How did you escape? Were people scared of you? - thatís an easy question.

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, they were pretty scared of me, they were very scared of me.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGOJO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes, Yasmin Sooka?

MS SOOKA: Mr Richardson, I would like to know - after the incident in which these two MK people as well as Sergeant Pretorius were killed in your home, were you arrested and charged for harbouring terrorists in your home and could you tell me how long you spent in detention or in jail please?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I was arrested on the very same day, that was the 9th and I was released on the 25th. I was given a task that they would come and see me so that I would work with them and co-operate with them and they said I mustnít disclose this information to anyone. H Moodley was the one who was addressing me, heís the one who followed me.

MS SOOKA: Thank you. I have a diary here from the police where thereís an entry on the 12th of May 1995, in which - I think itís Colonel Hesslinga, where it says that you received R10.000-00 from them and that they received a receipt, now did you or did you not receive this sum of R10.000-00?

MR RICHARDSON: Now theyíre talking about a receipt - if I had this receipt I would give it to you now but now that I donít have the receipt I would request them to give me my R10.000-00 and then I will give them a receipt.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS SOOKA

DR BORAINE: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Richardson, when you came back in the Kombi from the Methodist Manse and you had Stompie and the other three young people and you took them to the home of Mrs Mandela and you told us that you and others assaulted them, now when you assaulted them, did they cry out at all?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, they did cry out and as they were screaming we sang the slogan and freedom songs to drown their voices.

DR BORAINE: How far is the room or the garage or the back of the house, from the main house where they were being assaulted and crying out?

MR RICHARDSON: No, itís quite close, itís close to the main house.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. ...[indistinct] this is the last part of the one question that Iím allowed, you said - when you were describing the assault, you said: "We dealt with them or with him, Stompie, in the same way as the security police treated the freedom fighters", is that right, is that what you said?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct, thatís what I said.

DR BORAINE: So, in a fact - no thereís a conclusion - so in fact, you became like the security police?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I would agree with you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY DR BORAINE

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Richardson, after Iíd seen you on Sunday in the prison where you are kept - in the presence of your lawyer and one of the investigators and after I had spoken to the head of the prison there Mr Maseko, I gained an impression and you will correct me if Iím wrong, I gained an impression that you are not feeling safe in that prison and that as a consequence you might not be keen to publicly admit that you acted as an informer for Pretorius unless your safety can be guaranteed.

The question I then ask is, did I get a correct impression that you do not feel safe in that prison because you might be got at by those who might not like you testifying here?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would you rather be moved to a much more secure prison, if there is something like that in this country?

MR RICHARDSON: No, I want to remain there and I will die there and I will only go out of there as a corpse.

MR NTSEBEZA: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTSEBEZA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Hlengiwe?

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Chairperson, I have three quick questions.

The first one, I really want your confirmation Mr Richardson. If I heard you well you seem to be the only one within the Mandela Football Club, who had the expertise of using the weapon which you used in the killings and how to use it?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you. You mentioned the disciplinary committee which used to make decisions about the abductions, the killings and so on, what I want to know is, how much weight did your views carry within that disciplinary committee?

MR RICHARDSON: Yes, I took those decisions very seriously, to such an extent that I had to eliminate those people.

MS MKHIZE: In other words what you are saying is, your thoughts or your opinions carried a lot of weight, is that what you are saying?

MR RICHARDSON: Thatís not how I put it but if I was told about a certain person who had committed a crime, I would do my best that something is done to that person.

MS MKHIZE: ...[inaudible] you have made major allegations in a jocular manner without making an effort to assist us as a Commission by providing supportive evidence, why is that Mr Richardson?

MR RICHARDSON: Iím sorry if I didnít give you any evidence or proof because there is some proof stashed away - H T Moodleyís evidence or evidence with regard to H T Moodley and I donít know what sort of evidence you need.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MKHIZE

DR RANDERA: Mr Richardson, in asking my question I want to make two assumptions and these are based on having listened to you today. The first one is that you are someone who loves soccer and loves coaching and therefore I think you like young people, the second one is that - from what you said earlier and right at the beginning, you have a child or children whom you seem to care a great deal about. Now what Iím trying to understand is, how can someone within a two to two and a half year period go from being a soccer coach and someone who likes young people, to become - I canít describe it in any other way, to become a killing machine and in addition to that, you so vividly described how Stompie was being tortured. Now at the time when you were torturing him, when you were throwing him into the air and letting him drop onto the ground and when you finally killed him, did it never occur to you that this is only 13 or 14 year old child or by then, had you and the other people lost any reality in terms of what is right or wrong?

MR RICHARDSON: That is true, I think things got out of hand because Paul Erasmus and H Moodley - we didnít know what to do them ...[intervention]

DR RANDERA: Mr Richardson, can you please try on this one occasion to speak for yourself and leave Mr Erasmus and Mr Moodley out of it.

MR RICHARDSON: When I was on death row, I sang a hymn because there was nothing good that I did. If I played soccer successfully, I would have been very happy and Iím not proud of what I did in the past but I feel Iím serving my sentence and to me that is enough.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY DR RANDERA

CHAIRPERSON: Khosa?

MR MGOJO: Mr Richardson, I would like to address you in Zulu. I asked you questions before as to why you were not killed after having been labelled an informer, were you a champion and you said yes, they were scared of you. Now the question is, is it possible that what you did you did because you were instructed to? Why couldnít you say: "No, I could not do this or I cannot do this", why did you stoop that low, kill so many innocent children within such a short space of time? Why did you do it?

Iím asking this question because I want to know as to whether all these things were done because you were instructed because even if you were instructed, you had the right to refuse.

MR RICHARDSON: I was instructed, it was an order and it was a decision that was made.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGOJO:

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, at this juncture I donít think I have any further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, wonderful. Hanif?

MR VALLY: Just one question Archbishop.

At some point in your evidence Mr Richardson, you indicated that forthcoming evidence would unleash a bombshell, what were you referring to?

MR RICHARDSON: The bomb that Iím referring to is this bomb - Moodley and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Paul Erasmus, thereís something theyíre planning against me - I think thereís a plan that they are hatching. We have come to the Truth Commission but the truth is not yet out. When I listened to the news, all the people who had testified wanted to come back and re-testify because some other people get scared, especially Mbatha. When Mbatha saw me he got the shivers and he just could not testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop, no more questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VALLY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richardson, we would like to wish you a happy birthday as I donít know whether we are able to wish you a happy birthday in jail.

MR RICHARDSON: I would like to be given an opportunity to speak to my attorney, I would like to speak to my attorney ...No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you want to do?

MR RICHARDSON: Iím saying this to Joyce, Kukiís mother, Charles Zwane, Lerothodi, Master, Dudu Chili, I want us to get together, I want to give them some tickets and Iíll see them in the year 2000.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] We will make such an opportunity that you do meet with them. What is it that you wanted to say to your attorney?

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairman, Iíve seen the ...[inaudible] that the witness has prepared, I donít see any harm in him ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He was saying there was a statement that he wanted you to make on his behalf.

MR RICHARD: Let me find out what it is.

CHAIRPERSON: We want to go on.

MR RICHARD: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You have not had specific instructions with regard to that? Can you whisper with him perhaps for two minutes?

DR BORAINE: Order please, thank you. Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, the instructions I have received are to communicate that Mr Richardson has a desire to see the Doctor Abu-Baker matter properly re-investigated and in that connection he has expressed a wish that Mrs Albertina Sisulu re-testify - that was the first instruction.

The second one is that I have certain cards that he wishes to give to the families of the victims - which I will arrange to do after the hearing.

DR BORAINE: As to your first instruction, that is noted and as to the second, Iím delighted that these cards are being made available, Iíd be grateful if youíd make sure that they get to the right people.

Mr Richardson, thank you again for your evidence, youíve had a very long time in the witness box and you must be tired - so are we, you may stand down, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

 

DR BORAINE: I call Colonel Hesslinga, Dempsey and Senior Superintendent Moodley.

Order please, those who are standing in the hall, will you please be seated or leave, thank you very much.

First may I ask Mr Hesslinga - Iím not sure of your title, is it Colonel or am I wrong?

MR HESSLINGA: ...[inaudible]

DR BORAINE: Itís Senior Superintendent Moodley and just remind us again please Mr Dempsey, is it Colonel Dempsey or?

MR DEMPSEY: Senior Superintendent.

DR BORAINE: Also Senior, thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much for the two of you coming back again, we appreciate that very much and Director Hesslinga I understand you havenít been at all well and that youíve had a couple of operations, you havenít been out of bed for very long - weíre very grateful to you for coming to this Commission even though youíve been in hospital so recently, thank you.

We have to ask you to take the oath again - for the two of you, and of course obviously Director.

Miss Sooka?

MS SOOKA: Could I ask you to stand please and could I ask you one by one to place your full names on the record please.

MR HESSLINGA: Hendrik Marthinus Hesslinga.

MR DEMPSEY: Fredrick Hendrik Dempsey.

MR MOODLEY: Hoothra Moodley.

MR HESSLINGA: (sworn states)

MR DEMPSEY: (sworn states)

MR MOODLEY: (sworn states)

MS SOOKA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Iím sure I donít have to remind you that you are at liberty to use any of the official languages of our country, you may use English or Afrikaans as it pleases you - there are interpretation services available, so please feel free to speak the language you wish to, thank you.

Piers? I beg your pardon, Mr Cilliers, is that right?

MR CILLIERS: Yes, I suggested we follow the same procedure as the previous time in order to save time as itís again getting late, so I would suggest - especially at this stage whilst thereís only specific questions it seems to me to be asked, that we proceed in the same procedure as the last time.

DR BORAINE: I appreciate that suggestion, we will follow it and - Piers?

MR PIGOU: Thank you Chair, Iíd like to start with Senior Superintendent Dempsey.

Senior Superintendent Dempsey, you handed some documents to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission Investigation Unit yesterday and I was hoping that you would have those in front of you, do you?

MR DEMPSEY: No, I do not have the documents in front of me but I did hand them in. Which particular documents are you referring to? Are these the ...[indistinct] documents? Are you referring to the ...[indistinct] documents?

MR PIGOU: I am.

MR DEMPSEY: I apologise for not having brought them with me but I have provided them to you as requested and I have briefly glanced at them.

MR PIGOU: Senior Superintendent Dempsey, could you tell me, at what stage did these documents come into your possession?

MR DEMPSEY: This was subsequent to the arrest of Mabotha and it was then handed to me by the security branch.

MR PIGOU: So, it would be fair to say that during the course of your own investigation into the death of Stompie Sepei, you had access to this documentation?

MR DEMPSEY: That is the case.

MR PIGOU: Did you at any time anticipate using Temba Mabotha as a witness in the murder investigation of Stompie Sepei?

MR DEMPSEY: That is the case, also the Advocate for the Prosecution, Advocate van Vuuren - I had a consultation with him and he - in consultation with me, decided that we would not use this witness.

MR PIGOU: Can you perhaps explain for us or shed some light onto why he would not be used as a witness?

MR DEMPSEY: I could not explain to you why the advocate decided not to use him as a witness.

MR PIGOU: Senior Superintendent Dempsey, didnít this frustrate your investigation? Here you have a statement taken by the security branch which directly implicates Mrs Mandela in either the murder or the cover-up at least, around the murder of Stompie Sepei, could you tell me whether you pressed Advocate van Vuuren for answers?

MR DEMPSEY: Advocate van Vuuren is a person who simply decides who he will use in a prosecution and it was not amongst my rights to ask him questions as to why he did this or that, I could not be prescriptive in that setting.

MR PIGOU: But this was a material witness who had allegedly gone to the scene where Sepei had been killed, had had the scene pointed out to him by Jerry Richardson and had given you a statement in which he said that this was reported back to Mrs Mandela, he had given a statement in which he said that he had gone to Botswana to make a phone call to say that Stompie Sepei had been seen at Dukwe Camp and yet you didnít seem to think that this was important to follow up or to push Advocate van Vuuren for a more correct answer.

MR DEMPSEY: Had it not been for my investigation or for my request that this investigation be done we would not have found this witness, it was on my request that we track down this witness. You must remember at that time he was implicated as a possible co-accused and he was also a person who might have instructed other persons to assault the persons involved. Because of the police investigation, this person was tracked down and that testimoney was given to the prosecutor and Advocate van Vuuren decided not to use this person.

MR PIGOU: Could I put it to you this way, were you disappointed when Advocate van Vuuren made that decision?

MR DEMPSEY: Sir, I cannot tell you whether I was disappointed or not - there were many frustrations in this case, his decision however was final and I did not go against this decision.

MR PIGOU: Did you raise this decision with Major General Jaap Joubert, the overall head of the investigation unit?

MR DEMPSEY: I was the investigating officer in this case and as you would certainly know yourself, we simply investigate a case, we make the facts available to the prosecutor and the Attorney General and they make a final decision, we cannot make this decision, it is their decision.

MR PIGOU: No, I understand that Senior Superintendent Dempsey but a witness of this importance, an Askari who had been inside the house of Mrs Mandela for some time, providing you with invaluable information - some of the notes that youíve provided us include hand-written notes about instructions to make phone calls to newspapers saying that Stompie Sepei was seen alive in Botswana, youíve attached copies of those newspaper articles for us.

It seems to me that in my position certainly, if I had been in your shoes I think I would have taken it to my commanding officer or at least to as higher authority as possible. Just one more response on this, did you not even consider taking it to a more senior authority within the police service?

MR DEMPSEY: Again, - and I will repeat myself, the final decision is not a police decision, the final decision is an Attorney General decision.

MR PIGOU: I wonít pursue that line. Senior Superintendent Dempsey, did you make any enquiries as to what happened to Temba Mabotha after he had made these statements to the security branch?

MR DEMPSEY: No, after we spoke with him and after it had been decided that he would not be used as a witness, I saw no further need to make any follow-up investigations with regard to him.

MR PIGOU: Do you have any knowledge about - in Captain Jan Potgieterís amnesty application he talks about requesting that you donít use this witness and it would appear that Advocate van Vuuren is also adhering to the wish of the security branch in this respect, that he was planning to use this witness in a case against Mrs Mandela for high treason, do you have any knowledge of what that case was about?

MR DEMPSEY: I bear no knowledge of this. Again, I do not believe that a Captain in the South African Police can be prescriptive with regard to the Attorney General in the use of witnesses.

MR PIGOU: Did you make any further attempts to locate - on the basis of the information provided to you by the security branch to locate this person Sledge, did you make any attempts through the security branch information to identify who Sledge was?

MR DEMPSEY: We made various efforts, we also constituted a field task to hunt down these people even though we did not know what they looked like, we only had these nicknames such as Sledge, Shoes, Dark Sunday and so forth.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.

Just some questions now to Superintendent Moodley. Your name has been banded around during the course of today quite a lot and I think itís only fair to ask a couple of questions to get a response from you. Senior Superintendent Moodley, did you ever visit the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela either privately or in your official capacity, during the period 1986 to 1989?

MR MOODLEY: ...{inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speakerís mike is not properly placed.

MR MOODLEY: No, I havenít visited the house ...[inaudible]

MR PIGOU: Would you like to make a general response to the allegations which have been put forward by Mr Jerry Richardson.

MR CILLIERS: Mr Chairman, may I just put on record at this stage - itís Cilliers speaking, we were not present whilst these allegations were made as myself and my client only turned up just before 3 oíclock and at that stage - me at least and I think my client as well, were in the awkward position that we couldnít get these instruments where translations are being done, so I think to ask for a general sort of submission on that is not really take the hearing any further.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, what I would suggest is that if there are any specifics that you think are important, please put them to the witness because I think the case is reasonably made.

MR PIGOU: I think the first question to Senior Superintendent Moodley is a bit of a ...[indistinct] one if he says that he hasnít been there, then thereís no point in pursuing any other questions down that line.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, proceed.

MR PIGOU: Senior Superintendent Moodley, did you give Jerry Richardson R10.000-00 in Leeuwkop Prison in 1995?

MR MOODLEY: I didnít personally hand over the money but I was there when the money was handed over to him by then Colonel Hesslinga.

MR PIGOU: So, he was actually given R10.000-00 in cash?

MR MOODLEY: Thatís correct.

MR PIGOU: And from information received by the investigation unit, he was not provided with items such as football kit, video recorders, a video and a tape deck by yourself?

MR MOODLEY: Yes, I bought it for him - soccer kit and other equipment.

MR PIGOU: Is that out of the R10.000-00?

MR MOODLEY: Thatís correct, yes.

MR PIGOU: And the remainder of the money was left in Mr Richardsonís possession?

MR MOODLEY: I wouldnít say the remainder of the money but he had bought cards, telephone cards and other gift items as well.

MR PIGOU: Did you get a receipt for this R10.000-00?

MR MOODLEY: From?

MR PIGOU: Mr Richardson.

MR MOODLEY: No, it wasnít R10.000-00 eventually, no. I didnít give him cash as such - as a lump sum, he would ask me for telephone cards, he would ask me to buy him a gift, he asked me to buy the entire soccer kit with the permission of course of the commander of prison at the time.

I had to first of all get the commanderís permission and the commander himself first of all thought it was totally unfair that Richardson should buy this equipment for the prison, then they discussed it at the prison sports forum or whatever that they would accept this gift from Richardson to the sports club at the prison.

MR PIGOU: Did the investigation unit keep an account of money spent on Mr Richardson that this Commission would be able to look at to see what money was spent and to establish whether indeed that money was spent because Mr Richardson has said that he did not receive R10.000-00 and that he did not receive anything and would like that money.

MR MOODLEY: At the end of the whole thing I gave Richardson the full account of what has happened and heís taken the account with everything.

MR PIGOU: So, you donít have a copy of that account?

MR MOODLEY: No, I donít have a copy of it.

MR PIGOU: The police do not have a copy of an account of money spent on a convicted prisoner - R10.000-00 spent on a convicted prisoner, you donít have that receipt?

MR MOODLEY: No, but the prison authorities will be able to verify that.

MR PIGOU: They should be able to verity that?

MR MOODLEY: Yes.

MR PIGOU: Is that usual practice - to not keep accounts of this sort?

MR MOODLEY: This is unusual, itís never a usual thing - this doesnít happen everyday to anybody.

MR PIGOU: Yes, but Senior Superintendent Moodley, do you not usually - when youíre paying informers, do you not normally keep some record of that?

MR MOODLEY: Yes, but the record is kept - that we paid the informer, that record weíve got.

MR PIGOU: You donít keep receipts normally, they donít sign for the money or good received?

MR MOODLEY: We have a receipt for the money ...[indistinct] signed.

MR PIGOU: You do have that and is that available?

MR MOODLEY: Yes, thatís available.

MR PIGOU: Okay, thank you. In the investigation notebook - the computerised one which was given to the TRC by yourselves and Director Hesslinga, thereís a note on page 30 I believe, where the mother of Kuki Zwane tells you that Zinzi told her that her child was in Lusaka and that she says that Kuki and Zinzi Mandela were good friends. Senior Superintendent Moodley, did you ever attempt to take a statement from Zinzi Mandela in this regard?

MR MOODLEY: No, I didnít.

MR PIGOU: Could you tell us why not?

MR MOODLEY: Because I hadnít completed the investigation by then and still havenít completed the investigation.

MR PIGOU: So, the investigation is still outstanding?

MR MOODLEY: Yes.

MR PIGOU: And can you tell us what efforts are being made to pursue the killers of Kuki Zwane at this time?

MR MOODLEY: Weíre busy with, in fact about a month ago, I asked Director Molaba to look up certain people for me and he went up and he came back to me and he said heís traced one of them but the guy wouldnít talk to us as yet but heís going to talk to us.

MR PIGOU: Is Director Molaba the same person whoís the Warrant Officer Molaba mention in the investigation diary?

MR MOODLEY: Thatís correct.

MR PIGOU: So Warrant Officer in 1995, Director in 1997?

MR MOODLEY: Thatís correct.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.

Questions now for Director Hesslinga now please. Director Hesslinga, what was your position and rank in 1989?

MR HESSLINGA: I was a Captain.

MR PIGOU: And at which unit were you based?

MR HESSLINGA: I was second in command of the murder and robbery squad at Protea in Soweto.

MR PIGOU: And was your commanding officer Colonel Oosthuizen?

MR HESSLINGA: That is the case Mr Chair.

MR PIGOU: And after the murder of Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat, were you put directly onto this case as the investigating officer?

MR HESSLINGA: That is the case Mr Chair.

MR PIGOU: Was that on the day itself of the murder or a few days after that?

MR HESSLINGA: If I recall correctly, I received the docket a day or two after the incident, however I was on the scene at the time of the murder on Doctor Abu -Baker Asvat.

MR PIGOU: ...[inaudible] in command of the murder and robbery unit at Protea, did you have sort of background knowledge of the alleged activities of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR HESSLINGA: Mr Chair, the only knowledge that I had with regard to the Mandela Soccer Team was that I investigated a case in which Mrs Mandela was the complainant that certain school children had set her house alight and the reason for this had been that certain members of the soccer club supposedly raped girls at a school in the area of Mrs Mandelaís home.

MR PIGOU: Thank you, but apart from that, did you have a general knowledge, was there some sort of common parlance amongst the police in Soweto at that time, that around the activities of the Mandela United Football Club - your colleague to the right of you was investigating the disappearance of Lolo Sono and Stompie Sepei and so forth, you must have had some common understanding being second in-charge of the unit, you must have known what was going on.

MR HESSLINGA: Subsequently I obtained information with regard to the existence and activities of the soccer club.

MR PIGOU: Thanks, just briefly returning to the Dalywonga case that you were referring to where the house was burnt down, did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela personally lay the charge?

MR HESSLINGA: There was a docket opened with regard to arson but I cannot recall who the original complainant had been. I attempted on several occasions to obtain a statement from Mrs Mandela, I visited her office in Diepkloof in Soweto, I attempted to wait for her at the University of the Witwatersrand where she was then a student or registered as a student but I was not able to track Mrs Mandela down. I did not manage to obtain a statement from Mrs Mandela and the docket was then closed down at a later stage without any statement from Mrs Mandela.

MR PIGOU: My understanding is that by the 22nd of February 1989, the following information existed inside the Protea Murder and Robbery Unit - you had two statements from Tulani Dlamini, one taken by Paul Smuts and one taken by Gert Zeelie on the 17th and 18th of February respectively, both of those statements implicating Mrs Mandela in the death of Doctor Abu-Baker

Asvat.

You also had a statement on the 22nd of February from Katiza Cebekhulu in which he indicated that Doctor Asvat had examined Stompie Sepei and also during the course of that month, you had found Stompie Sepeiís body, could you tell me whether the connections were made between these three cases and were there any attempts made to follow that up?

MR HESSLINGA: Mr Chair, can I just correct you in this regard, I was not in any way involved in the investigation with regard to Stompie Sepeiís case. My only involvement with regard to the Stompie Sepei case was in the search of Mrs Mandelaís house where I acted as a guard.

I also obtained a Volkswagen Kombi vehicle at Jan Smuts after Mrs Mandela returned from Cape Town. With regard to the Cebekhulu case or matter, I was not involved in any way. I was the investigating officer in the Asvat case while Captain Dempsey - at that time, was entirely the investigating officer in the Stompie Sepei and Cebekhulu matters.

In addition - to answer the question comprehensively, I did have the two statements in my possession as this been stated to me now and this was amongst the statements filed in my docket - that is in fact correct.

MR PIGOU: ...[inaudible] your investigation surely could not have existed in some sort of isolated vacuum, some sort of bubble where you didnít share information. Here you have quite a clear connection between cases or at least in terms of allegations, Senior Superintendent Dempsey surely he was reporting to the commanding officer about what was going on inside his case.

Was there no kind of docket inspection which is standard procedure inside the South African Police and surely your docket also, there would have been some sort of reference point there? I do not understand how the connection could not have been made, could you perhaps explain that to us?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, the only statement in the docket which in any way implicated Mrs Mandela, were the two statements by Tulani Nicholas Dlamini, both the first statement on the 17th of February made to a Captain Smuts - this was a simple oath statement or sworn statement, on the 18th of February the same person Mr Dlamini - accused 2, made a statement to a police officer, Lieutenant Gert Petrus Zeelie, both of these statements were - these statements had internal conflicts.

In statement one, Dlamini says that he had been hired by Mrs Mandela and that an amount of R300.000-00 would have been paid to him. He speaks of a Coloured man in a BMW vehicle who would have waited for him after the murder, he also speaks of their hiding away in a flat in Vereeniging and that subsequently they returned and were then arrested.

In the second statement to the police officer, he makes different claims from that made in the first statement. In the second statement he refers to an amount of R20.000-00. During his explanation in our taking him to court, accused 2 - which is Dlamini, explained that he didnít know anything about this - he wasnít at the place, he doesnít know the address, he never had a firearm or any ammunition in his possession and he doesnít know accused 1.

We then obtained evidence that accused 1 and 2 were in fact half brothers - step brothers and if one takes these statements and you read them both - in view of the statements of accused one, you then find that accused 1 made a statement, accused 2 claims that accused number 1 said to him that he, accused number 2, heís being hired by Winnie Mandela. So, he was not was not directly hired or spoken to by Mrs Mandela, accused 1 said this to him.

Accused number 1 doesnít mention this in his statement, he says in his statement that they were looking for money, that they were thinking of a robbery, that they surveyed Doctor Asvatís rooms on two occasions, that they saw Doctor Asvat get out of his motor vehicle with his doctorís bag in hand, that accused 1 then said to accused 2: "There must be a lot of money in that bag" and that at the end of the day they shot the doctor.

According to his statement they did take money, they took R135-00 in cash from the doctorís rooms and subsequently they divided the money amongst themselves, each of them took R60-00 and R15-00 was then used for ammunition.

MR PIGOU: Thank you for pointing out all those contradictions but let me ask you this - on the basis of those contradictions, did you decide then that it was not necessary to pursue a line of investigation with regards to the allegations made in connection with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, if I can be allowed to conclude my explanation.

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible] thank you.

MR HESSLINGA: Subsequently accused number 1 made an identification and on the scene he said certain things which were coherent with his original statement. In his subsequent explanation in court - in terms of his plea, there was a continued consistency with his indications at the scene and his original statement.

What I want to say is that as the investigating officer, Mbatha, accused number 1 appeared to me to give an entirely acceptable explanation and he continued to be consistent in his story while accused number 2 jumped around and changed his story all the time.

In addition I could state Chairperson, that additional evidence obtained by us from ambulance staff who arrived on the scene at the time of Doctor Asvatís shooting, contradicts this statement of Dlamini with regard to the fact that a Coloured man in a BMW vehicle had been waiting for him.

While we have two sworn statements from two firemen who followed Dlamini and Mbatha when they ran away from the house of Doctor Asvat, that they ran through an open field and that they were therefore not able to continue to pursue these two. They then stopped a police vehicle, they made a report to the police vehicle, the police vehicle continued to look for these people but were not able to track them down.

That is what Iím trying to explain, the differences in Dlaminiís statements and his explanations in his statements and the difference between that and the statement of Mbatha, caused me as the investigating officer to believe the version of Mbatha rather than the version of Dlamini. This is however me - as investigating officer, that was my opinion.

MR PIGOU: At what stage did you become aware of the Katiza Cebekhulu statement in which it was alleged that Doctor Asvat had been to the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to examine a very badly injured Stompie Sepei?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, I am 100% honest, I first became aware of Cebekhulu and his possible involvement in the Asvat case, was when I was the investigating officer in the Goldstone Commission investigations. There were then newspaper reports that Cebekhulu was in jail in Zambia and that he made these certain claims, that is the first I heard that Cebekhulu could possibly be involved in the Asvat case.

(transcriberís own translation)

MR PIGOU: So, your colleague Senior Superintendent Dempsey didnít make you aware of the information about Doctor Asvat at the time, is that correct?

MR HESSLINGA: I had no knowledge of this. (transcriberís own translation)

MR PIGOU: Okay. ...[inaudible] Mr Dlamini talking about the fact that they were tortured by yourself - I believe one of them said, and also by Mr Moodley but before we go into that directly - their specific allegation, Iíd like to ask you a more general question about human rights abuses, the use of unconventional methods to extract information at the Protea Murder and Robbery Unit.

I had the misfortune of reading through several statements at the weekend from the Detainee Parents Support Committee which listed hundreds of allegations of torture at the security branch in Protea. On a more personal level, Iíve had quite a lot of experience with murder and robbery units and allegations of torture by murder and robbery units - the use of electric shocks, the use of suffocation methods and so forth.

In your experience in the murder and robbery unit - and perhaps I could put this to the three people here, have you had experience of arrested persons being tortured by the methods Iíve described or any other methods?

MR DEMPSEY: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Director Hesslinga?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MOODLEY: Mr Chairman, I know Mr Pigou because of these investigations - I met him first in Vereeniging and I assisted him or the team investigating these type of cases, so he knows a bit of the background when I was assisting him at the time. I was never involved in this kind of thing, this is why I think I was chosen to join the time and I was never ever found guilty of such offences and never involved myself in it.

I have knowledge of these things in court and there were allegations made that there were people who did this and I myself was alleged to have done these things but I never did it.

DR BORAINE: Yes, could I just - gentlemen, they way I heard the question was not only: "Were you actually involved in any of this"? but "Did you know of any experience"?, in other words: "Were you aware - not of allegations or newspaper report but of incidents amongst your own colleagues and your own experience" - that was the word that was used, "did you come across this at all or was there absolutely nothing in that at all?"

MR MOODLEY: Myself, no, Mr Chairman.

MR DEMPSEY: (English translation inaudible)

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

MR PIGOU: Chair, it is remarkable that in South Africa so many people want to confess, I will leave it at that for this and I will move on with Director Hesslinga.

MR MILLER: Sorry Chairperson, Iím Michael Miller on behalf of Tulani Dlamini and I just wish to point out that the statement before Lieutenant Zeelie made by him, was not made at the Protea at the Soweto Murder and Robbery but at Brixton Murder and Robbery.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Mr Miller. Piers?

MR PIGOU: Director Hesslinga, did you during the course of your investigation into the murder of Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat, seek the assistance of the security branch - any of their information?

MR HESSLINGA: No, Mr Chairman.

MR PIGOU: I just want to now turn to the 1995 investigation - thereís a reference on page 13 to the Goldstone report into the death of Sizwe Sithole and the allegations that Mr Sithole allegedly made to Warrant Officer Augustine, who I believe had previously been working in the Soweto Security Police - as is indicated here, about allegations of criminal conduct by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and her daughter Zinzi Mandela, could you tell us whether you obtained these documents and copies of the documentation which was put before the Goldstone Commission of Enquiry?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Could you tell us where those documents went after you concluded your investigation?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Were they copies or originals Director Hesslinga?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Thank you. Were you able to establish whether Stompie Sepei was indeed an informer for the security branch?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: On page 16 of your investigation diary, you say that Richardson - it was confirmed that Richardson was a source ...[inaudible] Lieutenant Colonel Muller and that this formed some sort of basis I believe, for the payment which was approved by Director Brits and Assistant Commissioner Grove, were you able to get any documentation at all to prove that Richardson was an informer?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Was Lieutenant Colonel Muller able to tell you who else around Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was informing to the security police?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Why not?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Thank you Director Hesslinga. On the same page on the second paragraph, you talk about visiting murder and robbery and speaking to Lieutenant Colonel Dempsey about the Lolo Sono kidnapping docket and you say: "In this docket there is prima faci evidence that Mrs Winnie Mandela is directly involved in the abduction of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. Did you actually have access to that docket?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: And could you tell us what is contained inside that docket because we seem to have had some trouble in tracking it down.

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Director Hesslinga, these werenít the only police statements were they - inside the docket 236 of 11/88, I believe there was also a statement from one, Michael Siakamela, could you tell us if that was put onto the computer and if not, why not?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Director Hesslinga, who was Michael Siakamela or who is Michael Siakamela?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Can you remember what the content of his statement said?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Now, could you tell me whether - let me just confirm this, youíre saying now Director Molaba, he was the last person with that statement or a copy of that statement when he went to see Michael Siakamela to confirm whether indeed he was going to stick by that statement he made in 1988 or Ď89.

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: And was Mr Siakamela taken to the Attorney General in 1995 to speak to him about the contents of his statement?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Yes, Michael Siakamela.

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: And can you recall at the end of your investigation, what the recommendations were around - from the Attorney General now, around the abduction case of Mr Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: I just want to move on quickly to ...[intervention]

DR BORAINE: Piers, can I just find out how much longer youíre going to be?

MR PIGOU: Thereís about four questions Chair, I think they should be quite brief.

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible]

MR PIGOU: Feel free.

Page 21 of the investigation diary refers to - I think, Jerry Richardson, talking about Kuki Zwane having been killed on Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís orders because she was an informer.

MR HESSLINGA: Sorry, can you just repeat that, is it page 21?

MR PIGOU: I believe itís page 21. And were you able to ever establish whether - first question Chair, were you able to establish whether Kuki Zwane was indeed an informer?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Second question, weíve referred to a National Intelligence Agency document in which there is reference to certain football club members being in fear of Katiza Cebekhulu coming and giving evidence and on the corner of that document it says - I think in a signature from Director Brits : "Speak to Senior Superintendent" - I think it says: "Speak to Henk Hesslinga", was this document made available to you and what efforts were made to follow up the information with the National Intelligence Agency in this regard?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: With respect Director Hesslinga, were you not somewhat suspicious that a former MK intelligence officer is put directly - and it doesnít seem to me as though thereís a great deal of supervision over the work that heís doing, heís put in charge of looking for former Mandela United Football Club members - some MK members, in connection with the activities around Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, and then he comes back to you and says heís had no luck finding those people, when we know from the Truth Commission, that we found at least one or two of those members in the course of our investigations. It seem highly problematic to me that this situation

is left in the hands of Warrant Officer Malherbe at the time, with his connections in the ANC, were you not concerned about this?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Just in the same vein, was there any information provided - and this is probably my last question although Iíd like one more after it if Iím allowed Chair because I didnít know - thank you.

Did you make any enquiries about the abduction of Katiza Cebekhulu and the fact that he was alleged to have been taken out of the country by the ANC and who knows ANC Intelligence was involved in this as well, did you make any enquiries in this regard?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Did Warrant Molaba provide you with any insight into this particular problem?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

DR BORAINE: One more.

MR PIGOU: This is the last question.

I asked this question to your colleague Senior Superintendent Moodley on Monday and perhaps you can shed some more light on it. It seems as if a considerable amount of resources was spent on this investigation, your flying to Zambia, Senior Superintendent Moodley going to the UK and digging up things and flying around in helicopters and all the rest of it, why was this investigation - after having so many resources put into it, closed down when there are clear a number of strands of the investigation which still had to be followed?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: No further question Mr Chair, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PIGOU

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.

Any of the three gentlemen - around the statement of Johannes Mabotha - can you refresh our memory, these Section 29 statements were made under the law at the time that said: "If you do not answer questions to the satisfaction of the arresting officer, you might not secure your release", is that right?

S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SEMENYA: And I donít know if you know, this is specifically the section that was repealed very early when our country got democratised, are you able to refute?

S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SEMENYA: And in fact, now that we know that Mabotha was blown up by de Kock, have you got any independent validation that the contents of the statements were - one: freely and voluntarily made, and secondly, whether they were true?

S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SEMENYA: Does the validation you think exists, that the contents of a Section 29 statements are a true and freely and voluntarily made?

S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SEMENYA: Sorry, Senior Superintendent, are you saying this statement was made in the presence of an attorney or it was not denied in the presence of an attorney?

S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEMENYA

DR BORAINE: Right, please go ahead.

MR SOLLER: Thank you Mr Chairman, Peter Soller on behalf of Zakhele Mbatha.

Superintendent and Senior Superintendent Moodley and Hesslinga, I direct these questions to you if I may. Do you suggest for one second to this Commission, that you have never been involved in any torturing activities as police officers.

S.A. POLICE: Are you talking to me directly?

MR SOLLER: Iíll talk to both of you, each one can answer individually.

S.A. POLICE: No. (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Do you know the layout of - what was called, the John Vorster Square?

S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Will you tell the Commission how many lifts there are at John Vorster Square.

S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Would you not deny that thereís a specific lift which you enter from the garage at John Vorster Square which takes you up to the ceiling of John Vorster Square - to the last floor, where all the security matters are attended to and for many, many - Iím talking about pre-democratic era, there were screams and crying all day and all night coming out of that section?

S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Well, I was such a select person, be it that I was an attorney and I can tell you that for many years - probably 15 to 20 years of my practice, I saw some horrific sights leave that lift under the floor of John Vorster Square and bodies or human beings pretending or portraying themselves as living bodies were taken out of that floor or brought into that floor where further interrogations took place or where they were taken to private hospitals for treatment, do you not know about that?

MR CILLIERS: Mr Chairman, if I may at this stage - I donít want to object unnecessarily, but everybody is time bound and everybody is bogged down by time and with all due respect, what the relevance of these questions are on the specific allegations that the Commission is in fact investigating at this stage, I canít see and on that basis I would suggest or submit that it is irrelevant.

MR SOLLER: Mr Chair, my learned friend ...[intervention]

DR BORAINE: Mr Kades?

MR SOLLER: My learned friend obviously doesnít know that I act for Mr Zakhele Mbatha. Now we heard Senior Superintendent Hesslinga talk about the fact that on many occasions he had given evidence in court where all sorts of allegations regarding torture and such things were made, he had never ever found the Judge lend support to that.

I want to put to this witness, does he not know as a fact that pre-democratic era in this country, there were selected Judges chosen to hear human rights matters where there was torture involved.

DR BORAINE: I think you must be very brief in pursuing this, I think the witness has already indicated that he personally knows nothing about the torture which allegedly took place and I think to pursue it for too long is unnecessary and irrelevant, so please get to the point.

MR SOLLER: As it pleases you Mr Deputy Chair, let him live with his ...[indistinct] but let me say this - that my client Mr Mbatha will say as follows - and heís given evidence to this effect and I want to know what you have to say - both of you know Mr Mbatha, donít you.

S.A. POLICE: Thatís correct.

MR SOLLER: You thoroughly investigated him? He says that on numerous occasions he has been tortured - I exclude you on the left for the time being, Mr Dempsey, I exclude you for the time being, he will say that you Senior Superintendent Hesslinga and you Superintendent Moodley have on many, many occasions handcuffed his wrists and his ankles and had immersed him in a swimming pool - his whole body, his whole head, and told him when he had something to say he was to blow bubbles, do you deny that that ever happened? I see you laugh but I donít think itís very funny Superintendent.

S.A. POLICE: I think itís very funny because where you get this from, I donít know. He was in court and he never mentioned anything like that in court, if there was allegations made - it seems very funny, itís such a far fetched story ...[inaudible] itís laughable. I didnít do this and I told this Commission before and weíre pursuing the same thing - I personally didnít do it.

DR BORAINE: Senior Superintendent ...[intervention]

S.A. POLICE: ...[inaudible] involved in that and Iím making it very clear Mr Chair, I was not involved in anything like that - one word, not involved, never.

DR BORAINE: Just before you start.

Senior Superintendent Moodley, may I say that Iíd be grateful if you just simply reply to the question. I concur with the questionnaire that torture - whether itís true or false, alleged or unalleged, is a very serious matter and itís certainly no laughing matter, so whether you think itís far fetched or not, please treat the questions seriously, thank you.

MR SOLLER: Mr Mbatha has also instructed me that by both of you, he was electrocuted all over his body including electrification and being burnt electrically on his penis, on his ears and on his neck etc., what do you say to that?

S.A. POLICE: No.

MR SOLLER: Would that be news to you - for example in South Africa because you gentlemen have lived in South Africa for as long as I have, to know that prisoners have had their penisís and their testicles subjected to electrical current?

S.A. POLICE: Iíve read of that, yes.

MR SOLLER: But you say that it did ...[intervention]

S.A. POLICE: ...[inaudible]

MR SOLLER: What do you say ...[inaudible]

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible]

MR SOLLER: Director Hesslinga, is that news to you?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Not?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Well, I guess I would be quite shocked if you were to admit it. He would also say that you brutally hit him to such an extent - and again he repeats that both of you did it, that he became unconscious from time to time.

S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Well with respect ...[intervention]

DR BORAINE: Mr Soller, I think you must now ...[inaudible]

MR SOLLER: I am Mr Deputy Chairperson.

With respect Director, whilst you might believe fully in the integrity of many Regional Court Magistrates, we know as fact - having practised for many years and my case for 25 odd years, that many, many accused have appeared before Regional Court Magistrates not showing signs of injury but when micro-analysed by a pathologist - such as the late Doctor ...[inaudible], it was found that these people were injured by the most subtle means executed by the police force, do you deny that?

S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

DR BORAINE: Could you complete now please?

MR SOLLER: As it pleases you Mr Deputy Chair.

Mr Mbatha will say that the particular reference to the assaults was this - is that whenever he tried to implicate Mrs Mandela - in relating back to the late Doctor Asvat, whenever he did so, it was then that the torture arose and neither of you two gentlemen on my right would allow him to make one adverse comment about the killing of Doctor Asvat in relation to the participation by Mrs Mandela, what do you have to say?

S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

DR BORAINE: Last question, thank you.

MR SOLLER: My very last question to both of you is this - there was evidence given by Mr Richardson - who was the previous witness, that around about May of 1995, he spoke to one of you whilst he was at the Leeuwkop Prison - I think it was to ...[inaudible], do you recall that?

S.A. POLICE: ...[inaudible]

MR SOLLER: Now, can you explain how come a few days after that - about six or seven days, my learned friend Doctor Seriti - acting on behalf of Mrs Mandela, was able to convey to Mrs Mandela - and I quote from a letter from my learned friend to the Commission of Police:

"Furthermore, it has come to our clientís knowledge that Mr Zakhele Mbatha - who is presently serving sentence at Pretoria Central Prison and who was kept at Medium C Block, was severely assaulted by the police who were ignoring him to sign a statement which implicates our client in several criminal offences and he was also promised substantial cash amounts, amnesty and a new identity document if he signs the statement"

Just to end off that question, I want to put to you thatís itís no coincidence that Mrs Mandela received this information five or seven days after you had been to see Mr Richardson, can you comment on that?

S.A. POLICE: Sorry, I donít - is it five days after we saw Richardson?

MR SOLLER: Five or seven days.

S.A. POLICE: After we saw Richardson, you got a letter from?

MR SOLLER: I didnít get a letter a letter from anybody, Mrs Mandelaís attorneys wrote to your Commissioner - I think your colleague on your right has that letter because he seems to be ...

S.A. POLICE: Yes, Iíve seen this letter.

MR SOLLER: Well, have a look at the last paragraph on page 1.

S.A. POLICE: Yes?

MR SOLLER: How would you imagine that Mrs Mandela would be able to ascertain that my client - a death row prisoner, he wasnít going to be hanged because there were no longer any executions, was being severely assaulted by the police who were forcing him to sign statements et al, how would you imagine that Mrs Mandela would have come to that information?

S.A. POLICE: No idea.

MR SOLLER: Youíve no idea?

S.A. POLICE: No idea.

MR SOLLER: You wouldnít think itís coincidental that youíd been to the prison a little while beforehand?

S.A. POLICE: I have no idea.

MR SOLLER: Did you discuss this matter with your Commissioner?

S.A. POLICE: He discussed with me - the letter was given to us.

MR SOLLER: Did you investigate it?

S.A. POLICE: Investigate which part of it?

MR SOLLER: The allegation, itís a serious allegation.

MR CILLIERS: (English translation inaudible)

DR BORAINE: I really canít allow you to go on any further, thank you.

MR SOLLER: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Iím indebted to you.

DR BORAINE: Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: Thank you Deputy Chairperson, Michael Miller appearing for Tulani Dlamini.

I want to address my questions to you Director Hesslinga, I asked some of these questions to Senior Superintendent Moodley the other day but he was unable to provide proper answers because he said you were the investigating officer and not him.

You say that the reason why didnít investigate the allegations implicating Mrs Mandela, were because of contradictory statements which you received from Mr Dlamini?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: But what the two statements had in common - that is the statements made to the police, what they had in common was that he implicated Mrs Mandela.

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: Incidentally, one thing that interests me a lot, is the fact that this affidavit was taken on the 17th of February at which time Mr Dlamini had already been arrested, is that correct?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: Is it usual practice to take sworn affidavits from arrested persons?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: So in other words, the intention was at that stage, that Mr Dlamini would be a witness against Mrs Mandela?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: Now, turning to the robbery, Mr Dlamini was convicted of a count of robbery of R145-00 from Doctor Asvatís surgery, did you investigate whether any money was missing from the surgery?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

S.A. POLICE: Can I help here Mr Chairman please? Looking through the dockets yesterday or the day before yesterday, we found a page of a diary where it came up to the amount of R135-00 and weíve got that somewhere that we can produce to the Commission which will assist us in getting to how we got to that figure. It seems to be a page of a diary - I donít know where the diary came from, but it came up to the figure with little amount put in - like R2-00 or R5-00 or whatever, making up this amount.

DR BORAINE: Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: May I ask you Senior Superintendent, who compiled or wrote this diary?

S.A. POLICE: I donít know who compiled it - what Iím saying is, we found that amongst the documents of that docket and itís available. If somebody can identify the writing - maybe the Asvat family will be able to identify that writing or the page of the diary it came from.

MR MILLER: Because you see, the evidence before this Commission from the Asvat family is that there was no money missing, they balanced the books and they found nothing missing.

S.A. POLICE: Well, one would have to look at this page - what Iím saying is, we have this page and at the end of the page it says R135-00 and from what the statement we have in court and from the statements weíve come across, thatís roughly R125-00 with the charges put to it.

Iím not saying that that is the document - what Iím saying is, there is a document. Whose handwriting Iím saying - Iím not prepared to say whose handwriting, Iím saying there is a document and the Commission can look at it and look at the value of the document.

MR MILLER: And it would appear to me that - from what Iíve heard over here, that the only evidence of the robbery that was placed before the court, was the confession of Mbatha.

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: But you see, I find that interesting because those admissions made by Mbatha, cannot possibly be admissible against Dlamini.

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

DR BORAINE: One more minute Mr Miller.

MR MILLER: I am winding up Deputy Chairperson.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

MR MILLER: Finally - and here I wind up, I want to put it to you Director Hesslinga, that the reason why the aspect of Mrs Mandela was not further investigated is because to proceed with the theory that it was a robbery and that it was a common-law crime without a political motive, was a far easier way for the police to solve the case and to obtain a conviction, whereas if it had been that the police were implicating Mrs Mandela, it would have been politically far too sensitive.

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

(start of new tape) 49 witnesses made statements which made part of this docket and which was then presented to the Attorney General. The Attorney General then decided not to use the testimony and the statements of the accused. A letter of the Attorney General in which he explains why he chose not to use this testimony is in my possession and ...[inaudible] in paragraph 11.

Chair, I would very much like to tell this Commission that the Asvat matter and the claims against Mrs Mandela also bothered me as a police official to such a degree that after both of the accused were found guilty and after they were in fact given the death sentence, I visited them on the 18th of December on death row in Pretoria. I have with me a copy of the visitors book at death row and it is indicated that on the 18th of December 1989, I did have meeting with certain prisoners.

I saw Dlamini and I said to him - in view of the death sentence which might in fact be effective, whether he would not be willing to assist us with regard to the allegations made by himself against Mrs Mandela - he refused. I also spoke to Mbatha separately and Mbatha said to me that he would stick with his story. I asked him specifically with regard to the allegations of Dlamini against him in the trial and what he said to me was that it was a bunch of nonsense and that he would stick to his story - I then left.

MR MILLER: ...[inaudible] to a letter from the Attorney General and your reply and I think you mentioned the paragraph 11 if Iím not mistaken, is it a very lengthy paragraph?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MILLER: Can you sum it up very briefly, what was the Attorney Generalís comment there?

MR HESSLINGA:

"...[inaudible] statement made by accused 2 before the Justice of the Peace that placed him in the scene of the offence but is in essence of ...[indistinct] statement. It was also stated by accused 2 in the statement that the person whom he accompanied to the surgery - one Johannes who later transpired to be accused 1, had reported to him that he, Johannes had been paid the amount of R20.000-00 by Mrs Mandela to assassinate the deceased in this case - he mentioned nothing of the robbery.

This statement was not proven by the State and the contents did not amount to the confession to any offence by accused 2 and the facts were in conflict with the Stateís case as testified to, by the eye witnesses. The claim by accused 2 has been investigated by the South African police but no corroborative evidence could be found to substantiate these claims"

MR MILLER: But it was not true that the claims by accused 2 had been investigated?

MR HESSLINGA: I think itís true Mr Chairman.

MR MILLER: Is that correct, the claims by accused 2 - by Mr Dlamini, had not been investigated?

MR HESSLINGA: I have just given testimony that I in fact after the trial, went to see them to attempt to investigate it in ...[intervention]

MR MILLER: ...[inaudible]

MR HESSLINGA: No, not prior to the trial.

MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Mr Kades?

MR KADES: Norman Kades, on behalf of the Asvat family.

Do I understand Mr Hesslinga, that the position is that when the investigation was re-opened on the 24th of April of 1995, you and Mr Moodley were, are of the view that there was no new evidence to be discovered in the case of the murder of Doctor Asvat and that the police had really concluded their investigations?

MR HESSLINGA: That is correct Chair.

MR KADES: Why did you undertake - why did you mislead if you knew this? Why did you mislead the Asvat family, Tony Leon and the present Minister, that you would proceed and further investigate the Asvat murder? Wasnít this misleading, why didnít you say the matter is finished, the matter is concluded?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, I did state this to the Asvat family after our investigation. We did re-investigate various aspects of the Asvat matter and after the investigation we said this to the Asvat family and to Mr ...[indistinct].

MR MOODLEY: ...[inaudible] the question put is that - did we know when we started the investigation ...[intervention]

MR KADES: Yes, absolutely.

MR MOODLEY: No, no, from the information we got - these were the leads given to us, we investigated those leads.

MR KADES: What were the leads Mr Moodley?

MR MOODLEY: That we should see Cebekhulu, speak to Richards and those kind of leads.

MR KADES: No, no, what kinds of leads Mr Moodley?

MR MOODLEY: Well, thatís the letter from Tony Leon and ...[intervention]

MR KADES: Iím sorry, what is the letter from Tony Leon, I know nothing about a letter from Tony Leon. I want to know from you - please, leave the letter of Tony Leon, tell me please - you and Mr Hesslinga, weíve come a long way to find this, tell us please what leads you had that you were going to investigate - Mr Hesslinga has already answered, he didnít misunderstand my question. Now you please Mr Moodley, tell us what new leads you had.

MR MOODLEY: I think Mr Chairman - in all fairness to me, I think we must find that letter and see why we were directed to do what we did - by the Commissioner and the Minister, I think we must be given a fair opportunity to do that.

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, allow me to answer, this matter of the re-investigation of the Asvat case occurred as follows: there was a request from the Asvat family - addressed to our Minister, whether the Asvat case could not be investigated further. The Minister then called me and Doctor Asvat, Mr Montane and their legal representative were then present at that meeting.

They requested us and asked whether we could not investigate the Asvat matter with regard specifically to the involvement of Mrs Mandela. I offered to my Minister and to Doctor Asvat that I had been the previous investigating officer, I offered to withdraw from the investigation that could then have a new person investigate the entire matter objectively.

Doctor Asvat and the Minister and my Commissioner were satisfied and then in fact required of me to do this investigation. I did not mislead anybody, it was a request on the part of the Asvat family that we should continue with the investigation.

MR KADES: What investigation were you continuing with - you had closed the case, you had exhausted every source of information. You even tell us now for the first - fortunately this Commission is sitting and so we hear it now, that you even went to see these two in the death cell - incidentally only one was in the death cell. We hear this for the first time - you had exhausted every source, why did you not tell the Minister, why did you not tell the Asvatís? What was the jaunt to London all about?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, it was the request of the Asvat family that we should continue with the investigation to see whether we could not obtain additional testimony which might imply Mrs Mandelaís involvement. This did not come from us, it was a request of the Asvat family.

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible] you but do you not think itís reasonable that if the Minister comes and says: "Look Iíve had this special request, wonít you go and have another look at this", that this would be the normal response of an investigating officer who has to be careful of his Commissioner and his Minister, to say: "Right, weíll go and have another look at it"? ...[inaudible]

MR KADES: Well, Mr Commissioner with due respect, if the police were satisfied that they had exhausted every possible remedy and every possible source of information, I would have expected that the reasonable answer would be: "Mr Minister, weíve done what we could, there is nothing else to look at".

DR BORAINE: Could you reply briefly to that for a final time and then I must ask you to move on.

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, the court case which we investigated against Mbatha and Dlamini, we used every possible testimony which the Attorney General decided to use. What we did when the Minister asked us, we then did additional investigations and we had an interview with Jerry Richardson with regard to the Asvat murder, we spoke to the two accused.

And I can say to the Commission, we put them in a cell and we tapped their conversations with a tap to determine whether there might not be additional information emerging - that is the extent of our investigations.

MR KADES: May I say to you that Jerry Richardson - for what his evidence is worth, has told this Commission that he was not questioned about the Asvat matter and thereís corroboration for this and the corroboration is your own diary. There is nothing in your diary to indicate that you questioned Jerry Richardson concerning the Asvat matter.

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, I had a long personal interview with Jerry Richardson, I drove with him in a vehicle and he indicated the place where Kuki Zwane was thrown in the open veld and during that trip - we in the motor vehicle, had this conversation with Mr Richardson.

MR KADES: Mr Moodley was with you in the car?

MR HESSLINGA: I donít think so, I think it was a Lieutenant ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the name.

MR HESSLINGA: but this is a deceased police officer and possible a Sergeant Savage.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible]

DR BORAINE: Please do, you havenít got very much longer to go.

MR KADES: Mr Moodley, did you ever take a statement from Charla Botha?

MR MOODLEY: From?

MR KADES: Charla Botha, the third person Botha, mentioned in the statements of - well, mentioned at the trial - statements of Dlamini and Mbatha. Did you ever take a statement from that person?

MR MOODLEY: The second ...[inaudible] I took in 1995 from Dlamini in the cell ...[intervention]

MR KADES: At any time Mr Moodley Shalala I think you call - Botha Shawala I think is his name. Do you hear the name for the first time today?

MR MOODLEY: I heard the name. That must be the guy that he said worked at the coal factory in Soweto.

MR KADES: Yes.

MR MOODLEY: We went and looked for that man, we found three people by the same name but we couldnít find that man.

MR KADES: So you didnít take him - take a statement?

MR MOODLEY: No.

MR KADES: Did either of you ever talk to the Crisis Committee to find out what information they had concerning the Asvat murder?

MR MOODLEY: We did and we have a document - they gave us a document regarding that.

MR KADES: Who did you speak to?

MR MOODLEY: In fact that document came via Doctor Asvatís attorneys to us and Iíve got a copy of that document.

MR KADES: Who did you speak to at the Crisis Committee?

MR MOODLEY: Doctor Asvat made it available - thereís a covering letter here.

MR KADES: Who did you speak to at the Crisis Committee?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, we spoke to Doctor Beyers Naude, I spoke to Doctor Frank Chikane, we spoke to people from AZAPO and the other persons of the Crisis Committee were not available to us as many of them were in fact outside the country.

MR KADES: Was there any reason why - in the ordinary course of investigations Mr Hesslinga, that you should not question a person who is indicated to you as having information concerning a most serious matter of murder?

MR HESSLINGA: I donít understand the question.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] ask Mrs Mandela - there were very serious allegations. Itís true, there were contradictory statements but we know that there are often contradictory statements in dockets and these investigation are continued and carried out, is it because of who she was that you didnít ask her?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, are we referring to the Ď89 or the Ď95 investigation?

MR KADES: All the occasions when you were involved in the investigation of the death of Doctor Asvat.

MR HESSLINGA: During the course of the Ď89 investigation I was guided by the Attorney Generalís office and since they were not willing to use this particular testimony, there was no need for me to take a statement from Mrs Mandela or to obtain a statement.

During the 1995 investigation, Mrs Mandela personally reacted or responded, she sent a letter to us in which her attorneys informed us that we should either charge or leave their client.

MR KADES: And so you didnít ask for a statement?

MR HESSLINGA: No.

MR KADES: Thank Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KADES

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Unterhalter?

MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Hesslinga, I appear for the Sono and Shabalala families. Did you every receive any report or any information to suggest that the police killed or burnt the bodies of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, this is the first time I hear this claim.

MR UNTERHALTER: ...[inaudible] you mentioned that you attended a search that was undertaken at Mrs Mandelaís house, were you aware of a hit list that was produced or found in the course of that search?

MR HESSLINGA: I can vaguely recall something like that but not factually.

MR UNTERHALTER: Can I then ask you, did you ever undertake an interview with Mrs Mandela concerning the Sono and Shabalala cases?

MR HESSLINGA: Never. At this time - since the Attorney General instructed us or informed us that he was not going to review his decision, there is in fact no legal grounds for us on which to confront Mrs Mandela or attempt to obtain a statement from her.

MR UNTERHALTER: ...[inaudible]

MR HESSLINGA: Iím referring particularly to Ď95.

MR UNTERHALTER: ...[inaudible] last time that you saw the docket in the Sono case?

MR HESSLINGA: That must have been during 1995 Chair.

MR UNTERHALTER: One last question and thatís for you Mr Moodley, have you taken any steps - since last we asked you questions, to try and track down this docket as you promised you would?

MR MOODLEY: Yes, I have, Iíve recovered those two statements that Mr Hesslinga has handed in here now and we found two other statements which are part of those statements but we havenít found the actual docket itself, weíre still looking for it.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you direct enquiries to the Attorney Generalís office?

MR MOODLEY: Iíve directed enquiries.

MR UNTERHALTER: And what was the response?

MR MOODLEY: Well, theyíre waiting for a letter from me where they referred to the thing and I asked somebody to look it up in Commissioner Fivazís office and theyíre looking it up for me - theyíre still following it up.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR UNTERHALTER

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. Yasmin Sooka?

MS SOOKA: Mr Dempsey, can I direct this question to you please? Firstly, on page 16 of this investigation diary, there is a note and I think itís Colonel Hesslingaís note, which says that he found in the docket that there was prima faci evidence against Mrs Mandela in terms of her direct involvement in the kidnapping of Lolo Sono and Sibusiso Shabalala. May I ask you what your recommendation was to the Attorney General, at the time that you in fact investigated this matter?

MR DEMPSEY: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speakerís mike is not activated.

MR DEMPSEY: On several occasions Iíve stated that this is the procedure - I investigate the matter with all of the facts available to me, statements under oath and I provide all of this to him and he then at the end of the day decides whether heíll make a charge or not or whether heís going to prosecute or not. In this case, there had been interviews with Mr Sono, with Mr Shabalala, with Mr Michael Siakemela and all of these persons refused to testify.

MS SOOKA: Mr Moodley, it I understand you know - the statements that youíve recovered, of course donít include that of Michael Siakamela, is that correct?

MR DEMPSEY: Thatís correct. I just want to point out that both the statements are in two different places ...[indistinct] - what Iím saying is, the one lot of statements that I had to the day before yesterday and gave to Piers - Iíve got copies of it, I found in a box that we got from the court - amongst the court documents that Colonel Dempsey had got, okay? - that was one set of statements that doesnít include Michaelís statement.

Yesterday when I went through another set of documents, I found these files with our computer documents, in other words what Iím saying is, both of them donít have Michaelís statement.

MS SOOKA: And of course Michaelís statement is the one that corroborates.

MR MOODLEY: It seems to be the one that corroborates it.

MS SOOKA: I see, thank you. May I ask another question please? On page 18 of this investigation diary reference is made Colonel Hesslinga, to approval for the payment of this R10.000-00. I think what I fail to understand today - because thereís reference also to a receipt and I assume that the receipt has been signed by Jerry, could you tell me please how much of that R10.000-00 was spent on the uniforms and all the paraphernalia and how much money in cash Jerry actually received after you had purchased all these ...[indistinct] for the football club?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, I personally gave him R10.000-00 in cash and he signed - in the presence of two witnesses, for that amount. The original receipt is available, I had it locked in a safe in the police head office. With regard to the money used for the gifts and the soccer clothes and so forth, I am aware of this but this was in the able hands of my colleague and friend Senior Superintendent Moodley.

MS SOOKA: So in fact, R10.000-00 in cash was carried to the prison, if I hear you correctly.

Mr Moodley, may I ask you a question please, have you ever been convicted of fraud in the terms of your service as a policeman?

MR MOODLEY: Yes, I have.

MS SOOKA: Could you tell this Commission what that was for please?

MR MOODLEY: Iíll explain to this Commission because it seems to be a sore point to this Commission for a long time and everybody wants to know. When I was still a Constable in the South African Police - then attached to the security branch, I assisted a friend of mine who was then asked to determine whether he was the father of a child in Cape Town.

I went to assist him and when I got to this hospital at Addington, I then realised this is wrong for me and I told the nurse: "Sorry, Iím not the right person, the right person is outside this place" and then by my own admission - she then took his blood and did everything else and two days later - I told her where I worked, she phoned the security branch and said: "You know what, this is what this policeman did" and they then - the White members of the branch, decided to charge me for this fraud. And I was then charged for attempted fraud and found guilty and I paid a fine of R1.000-00.

MS SOOKA: And is it not true that recently when certain lie detector tests - when you had to undergo a lie detector test, did you pass that test because there seems to be some uncertainty about that?

MR MOODLEY: I donít know whether I passed it or failed it but they just didnít tell me what the situation was but I did the test definitely.

MS SOOKA: Thank you very much.

DR BORAINE: Doctor Randera? ...[inaudible]

DR RANDERA: Two questions Doctor Boraine.

I just want to clarify this for us gentlemen - both of you, earlier on Mr Moodley says he bought televisions sets etc., for Mr Richardson and there wasnít actually R10.000-00 handed over, now youíre saying you personally took R10.000-00 to him, now are we to understand that Mr Richardson got R10.000-00 plus all these other things?

MR HESSLINGA: No, Chair, I personally handed R10.000-00 in hard cash to him. Subsequently - after he received this amount, he spoke to us and to the head of the prison and indicated that he wanted to use this money for his soccer team in prison and for co-prisoners in prison and that is how the process then continued.

DR RANDERA: ...[inaudible] question to Superintendent Dempsey. I donít think thereís any problem with Johannes Mabotha having been an Askari and that he was blown up by de Kock but yesterday also the point was made that he was at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house because he had escaped from Vlakplaas and was actually giving information to the ANC concerning Vlakplaas activities. Do you gentlemen know about this - any of you, either at the time or since - in terms of looking at all the files?

MR MOODLEY: No, I donít no.

MR DEMPSEY: No.

DR RANDERA: ...[inaudible] yesterday or the day before.

MR MOODLEY: We just heard now that he was blown up - I heard that.

DR BORAINE: Iím going to give Mr Cilliers the last words, so in fairness let me ask - and you can wait Mr Hanif Vally. Mr Semenya, do want anything?

MR SEMENYA: No.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, you are very accommodating, thank you.

Do you want to speak before Mr Cilliers or after Mr Cilliers?

MR VALLY: I think it would be proper if I speak before Mr Cilliers in case he ...[intervention]

DR BORAINE: Exactly as I thought I should do it, please go ahead and youíve got one minute.

MR VALLY: Director Hesslinga, you were a member of Koevoet, is that correct?

MR HESSLINGA: Thatís correct Mr Chairperson.

MR VALLY: As a member of Koevoet - two issues, did you witness any torture taking place in Namibia and did you encounter Colonel Eugene de Kock while you were in Koevoet?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, I served with Colonel de Kock in Koevoet, he was one of my colleagues. All that I can say with regard to my time in Koevoet, was that we were at war - that is as much as I can answer.

MR VALLY: Did you witness torture while you were with Koevoet?

MR HESSLINGA: My answer Chair, would be that we were in a state of war, that is my answer.

MR VALLY: Will I get a better answer - he made an unequivocal statement under oath that he has never witnessed or participated in torture. In answer to a direct question on the issue, he now says he was in a war situation, are we to imply from his answer that yes, in a war situation he did either participate or witness torture?

DR BORAINE: Director, please answer.

MR CILLIERS: ...[inaudible]

DR BORAINE: Yes, sure.

MR CILLIERS: At this stage the witness in fact did answer the question and whether itís to the satisfaction of my learned friend, is for him to decide but he indicated what his answer is and that he would not go beyond that and I submit that it should be respected.

DR BORAINE: Mr Cilliers, Iím sorry, we really are trying to get to the bottom of these matters and the answer we received from your client is not unambiguous answer and I would ask him if he would reconsider and tell us exactly how he would respond in answer to the question.

Did you or did you not witness torture or participate in torture activities during the war in Namibia?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, the word: "torture" - we were in a state of war, we were in war circumstances, we were shooting at one another, we bled and the people around us died. Were someone wounded and lying on the ground, would that be torture or not? That we were hanging people or cutting their throats or torturing people - this did not happen, we were conducting our war.

MR VALLY: Let me go on to Mr Dempsey. Mr Dempsey, you were originally the investigating officer in the matter of the disappearance of Mr Lolo Sono and Mr Shabalala. And you for murder and robbery, yet the crucial statement that goes missing in the investigation is that of the driver Mr Michael Siakamela and that statement is taken by Mr Norman Lemmers who is a member of the security branch - the same Norman Lemmers whoís the investigating officer in the attack on Jerry Richardsonís house where this ANC guerrilla and Sergeant Pretorius are killed - where Mr Richardson is released after a very short time in detention without being charged. Can you explain to us the connection and the coincidence there.

MR DEMPSEY: Chair, I believe that the question to me is factually incorrect. I took the statement from Michael Siakemela, the statement of Mr Sono and Mr Shabalala were taken by Lemmer.

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible] Iím sorry, the question still remains, why was a security branch member taking statements - the same person who apparently was the investigating officer in the attack on Mr Jerry Richardsonís house?

MR DEMPSEY: I cannot answer this question Chair. I carried that docket and in my prior testimony, I received this docket on the 20th of January 1989.

DR BORAINE: Mr Valley?

MR VALLY: Very finally, Mr Johannes Temba Mabotha, an Askari who was now back in your hands as the police - according to you, was perfectly willing to co-operate in a unique position in the Madikizela-Mandela household.

In our experience the police up to today, are very reluctant to give us names of informers because they say itís an essential part of their investigation, why wasnít this man released to be used as an informer as he had already committed himself to do previously and rather was handed to security branch who handed him to Colonel Eugene de Kock - ex-Koevoet, who then blows him up? Why was this not done?

MR DEMPSEY: Again Sir, your facts are not correct, I did not arrest this man, security arrested this man, security detained this man, security had the oversight of this man.

MR VALLY: Sorry, a follow-up question.

DR BORAINE: Yes, carry on.

MR VALLY: Mr Dempsey had clearly indicated to us that the Mr Mabotha, accompanied him to the Attorney Generalís office. If heís got all these unsolved cases hanging over his head - and Iím talking about the disappearance of Shabalala and Sono, he considered using Mr Mabotha in the case of Stompie Sepei, why did he not make a recommendation which is a very simple thing especially since the security branch was so co-operative - when he wanted Mabotha, they produced Mr Mabotha for him, why did he not request that Mr Mabotha be released and be used as an informer for his matters which are still unsolved today?

DR BORAINE: Mr Dempsey?

MR DEMPSEY: Chair, again, the facts are again mistaken. Mabotha did not go to the Attorney Generalís office with me, I personally - and I repeat this for I donít know how many times, along with the attorney or advocate went to interview Mr Mabotha at a cell at a police station.

Again, this man was not simply handed to us, we had to track him down with careful investigative work.

MR CILLIERS: Director Hesslinga, you were criticised because you did not approach Mrs Mandela or confront Mrs Mandela after a clear connection which linked her with the Asvat matter. Apart from the allegations of Mr Dlamini that he had heard from Mr Mbatha that such a connection existed, had there been any other supporting evidence?

MR HESSLINGA: No.

MR CILLIERS: Must it not be seen in addition in view of the fact that the same Mr Dlamini in that very week, denied his own statement or allegation in the Regional Court during his plea?

MR HESSLINGA: That is correct Chair, and also in the High Court.

MR CILLIERS: The next question is only for Senior Superintendent Dempsey. With regard to criticism with regard to certain testimony not offered during the course of the trial against Mrs Mandela, is it not - as it appears from the High Court record, that with great difficulty, the High Court allowed that such facts in the case could be offered in the case against Mrs Mandela with regard to similar incidents, in order to strengthen the case against her?

MR HESSLINGA: That is the case Chair.

MR CILLIERS: Is it also correct - as appears from the record, that in fact after all of this considerable trouble and difficulty in legal terms, the High Court allowed this and all the witnesses to bring testimony against Mrs Mandela?

MR HESSLINGA: That is correct.

MR CILLIERS: Is it also correct that in fact - as you have already testified at an earlier stage of this hearing, the original dockets with regard to these matters are still in your possession and has been offered to the Truth Commission with regard to identical matters, with the addresses and the particular witnesses.

MR HESSLINGA: That is the case.

MR CILLIERS: Thank you Chair.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, that concludes the session. I want to thank you for making yourself available to the Commission and undergoing the questions.

This hearing is adjourned until 8H30 tomorrow morning, thank you.

WITNESSES EXCUSED

COMMISSION ADJOURNS