MR NTOMBENI: Yes, that is true.

MR SEMENYA: Did Mrs Mandela order the killing of Tholi?

MR NTOMBENI: I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: Who according to you had ordered the killing of Tholi?

MR NTOMBENI: ...Iím still looking for that information as to who actually ordered the killing between herself and Zinzi.

MR SEMENYA: The person who ordered it is either her or Zinzi?

MR NTOMBENI: That is definite, between the two of them theyíll sort themselves out as to who ordered the killing.

MR SEMENYA: Why do you say that?

MR NTOMBENI: Because I know this woman, I know what sheís capable of, and I know Zinzi.

MR SEMENYA: Just educate us a little bit, why do you say that? - based on your knowledge.

MR NTOMBENI: Winnie is a very brave woman, sheís capable of anything and she can do anything at any time and Zinzi has definitely taken after her mother, sheís just like her mother and that is why I have the belief that both of them are capable of any deed whatsoever.

MR SEMENYA: Is that the basis of your answer that Zinzi or Mrs Mandela must have ordered Tholiís death?

MR NTOMBENI: I just want to explain this to you - when Sizwe got to my place he was drunk, he had drunk brandy, he was from Diepkloof. He went past Orlando before he came to me and Winnie said she was not present at that time, she was in Cape Town but the following day she was there, she had arrived from Cape Town and she was with Zinzi. Zinzi was there driving in a microbus together with Guybon and Shoes, looking for Sizwe.

MR SEMENYA: Which questions are you answering?

MR NTOMBENI: Iím just explaining to you that that is the basis on which I say I know them and that she does whatever she pleases and when she pleases, that is the question Iím answering.

MR SEMENYA: In your statement you say that when there was an attack you refused to go.

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, when they went to attack Spongeís place as well as Killer Mbatha. If Killer Mbatha would give testimony he would corroborate what Iím saying.

MR SEMENYA: So it was possible to refuse some of these instructions?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, because I had realised what was happening, all along I was just being dragged into the whole thing.

MR SEMENYA: All this time you didnít see what was happening and it is the first time now you realise what was happening. When you were burning other peopleís feet as you say and torturing them, you were not aware what was happening?

MR NTOMBENI: I knew and I knew that you wouldnít dare defy Winnie and whenever you defy Winnie you were referred to as an informer.

MR SEMENYA: Now, why did you defy her this time?

MR NTOMBENI: I had decided enough was enough and come what may.

MR SEMENYA: But notwithstanding your refusal to go, you still go nevertheless just to go and see the red Audi where the bodyís lying?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, because Killer came to me and told me that Maxwell had been apprehended and I went there to see as to what was happening. When I got there he wasnít talking, he was lying still.

MR SEMENYA: I put it to you that you trying very hard to implicate Mrs Mandela in some of these events youíre testifying to.

MR NTOMBENI: What proof have you got that whatever Iím saying is not true?

MR SEMENYA: Is that your answer to my statement?

MR NTOMBENI: I want to know and maybe you can enlighten me, when you say that whatever Iím saying isnít true - Iím telling you what I know, what I saw and what I witnessed. What is it that you witnessed that you can possibly tell the Commission?

MR SEMENYA: Is that your final answer to my question?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions.

DR BORAINE: Just before I turn to the any of the lawyers or legal representatives, let me say something that perhaps we ought to have said a lot earlier. It is inevitable that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela is very well known but I think we should use that name and not Winnie out of respect and Iím sorry we havenít made that point earlier.

I know that this name does appear like that in statements and therefore itís a bit difficult but wherever possible, I think that we should maintain the dignity of these proceedings and Iíd be grateful if everybody would hear that, thank you.

Now, whoís next? Nobody, wonderful. No questions? Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Sorry Chairperson.

Sir, at the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela you described the holding of certain disciplinary proceedings which could be described as the conduct of Disciplinary Committees, now how did these work? Was there a Chairman or a secretary?

MR NTOMBENI: Some of the orders came from the late Sizwe Sithole, he used to tell us that this one deserves to be disciplined and assaulted.

MR RICHARD: And who played secretary to the Committee?

MR NTOMBENI: I donít remember.

MR RICHARD: In your statement you say - sorry, not you, a future witness that is Mr Madonzela, says the football club was supposedly ended in the first half of 1987, isnít it correct to say that all other activities except the playing of football continued?

MR NTOMBENI: Could you repeat your questions?

MR RICHARD: After the supposed disbanding of the football team sometime in April and May 1987, what went on?

MR NTOMBENI: That is what the people thought but within the yard a club still existed, nothing was burnt down, everything existed and was very much intact.

MR RICHARD: And things continued as normal, is that correct?

MR NTOMBENI: Definitely.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

Just one question, sorry ...[intervention]

DR BORAINE: Iím sorry, just before - because I think you would like to be last on that side, would you just say your name again, I didnít quite catch the first half.

MS NICOLE: Yes, thank you, itís Nicole ..(inaudible) for Mr Mbatha.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, please proceed.

MS NICOLE: Thank you, I just have two questions.

Can you please tell us again, what was the purpose of creating the soccer club?

MR NTOMBENI: Bone Vega said: "Guys, we should form a club so that we are able keep ourselves busy and not loiter around the streets".

MS NICOLE: So it was to play soccer and organise matches?

MR NTOMBENI: That is correct.

MS NICOLE: So when did your purpose change from being a soccer club to becoming a torture club?

DR BORAINE: I wonder if you wouldnít mind re-phrasing that, thatís pretty harsh language. Just say again please?

MR VALLY: Mr Chairman, I also want to say that I fail to see the present attorneyís relevance to her client, how are these questions relevant to her client?

DR BORAINE: Would you like to comment?

MS NICOLE: You are correct, it is of no absolute relevance to our client but I am interested to know and I assume I have got the right to know.

DR BORAINE: Well, Iíll be grateful if you will retain relevance particularly on behalf of the person youíre representing because weíve got a lot of work to do and if you could confine yourself to a slightly different language Iíd be grateful.

MS NICOLE: Okay. Well, thereís no need to answer my question then.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, does that conclude your questions?

MS NICOLE: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. Mr Unterhalter?

MR UNTERHALTER: Can I just ask you two questions, the first is that you told us that Tobogo came to tell you that heíd been sent to kill you, why did he tell you that heíd been sent to kill you?

MR NTOMBENI: As we were fighting Imzimshlope - we were fighting the hostel guys and Tobogo was taking orders from me as I was his commander at that time in Imzimshlope within our structure.

MR UNTERHALTER: Various questions were put to you about a relative of Sizwe Sithole and whether such a person exists, you referred to that person as Signet, is it possible that the relative of Sitholeís name is Sanele?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I think itís Sanele.

MR UNTERHALTER: That is what Lerothodi Ikaneng will say the name of the relative of Mr Sithole was, does that fit with what you know?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I do.

MR UNTERHALTER: Lastly, I just want to read the final portion of paragraph 7 of Mr Mandonselaís statement which is that he says that the club was disbanded in April or May of 1987 but he goes on to say in that paragraph:

"That the members were then allowed to keep their track suits, it was however a mistake from the management to allow these members to keep their track suits as these people created the impression that the club did still exist although most of these people were still closely involved with the Mandela household, even during the funeral of Doctor Asvat in 1989 they were wearing the track suits"

As far as you remember in 1987, were there still people associated with the Mandela household who called themselves Mandela Football Club people?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair, just a few questions please.

Mr Ntombeni, did you often see guns of various descriptions in Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house?

MR NTOMBENI: I saw a Scorpion that Bobo was talking about in Zinziís bedroom as well as a 47 that was used by Commander Viki.

MR VALLY: You say 47, what do you mean?

MR NTOMBENI: AK47.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of MK units operating from any of Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís residences?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I know of a few.

MR VALLY: Can you give us very brief details on these MK units, who was in charge of them, who made them up, who were the members of these units?

MR NTOMBENI: I remember "V", Commander Sonwabo as well as others whose names I canít recall.

MR VALLY: "V", did he have any other name?

MR NTOMBENI: Vuisile.

MR VALLY: Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela know Vuisile?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

MR VALLY: Why do you say this?

MR NTOMBENI: When "V" used to come to Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís yard he would speak to Mrs Mandela.

MR VALLY: Did you get any training or any firearms while you were staying at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house?

MR NTOMBENI: No, not at the time that I was staying at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís place.

MR VALLY: Finally, the issue of the football club - the disbanding or the alleged disbanding thereof, although it was called The Mandela United Football Club, what were the principle activities that this group of young men were involved in?

MR NTOMBENI: The aim of the formation of the Club was for us to be able to play soccer.

MR VALLY: How did it develop, what did it become later?

MR NTOMBENI: As Iíve already explained, people starting getting assaulted until the club was ordered to be disbanded.

MR VALLY: Did the young men who initially made up the club, did they act as bodyguards for Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR NTOMBENI: No, they were not bodyguards.

MR VALLY: Finally, in terms of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mr Jerry Richardson, did Mr Jerry Richardson always take instructions from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR NTOMBENI: I wouldnít know about that.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness but one issue I want to just say two minor things if I may because Mr Semenya raised the issue of the subpoena.

DR BORAINE: If youíd like to keep them brief.

MR VALLY: Theyíll be very brief. The first point I want to make is, this witness stood down the last time because Mr Semenya alleged that he had information that the witness had been offered money and we note that none of this has been put to the witness by Mr Semenya, thatís the first issue.

The second issue is the issue of the subpoena. On the last occasion when this witness stood down and these queries were raised, we made the specific point that in the course of issuing subpoenas we came across this witness. Two things to state here and the first thing is this, we donít have to subpoena people we can invite them as well so they didnít actually need a subpoena if a person is willing to come forward and give evidence.

Secondly, my understanding is - and I havenít discussed it directly with the person who did serve the subpoena, that yes, there was a subpoena in the name of Gift Mabelane and the name Mabelane was scratched out and Ntombeni was written in itís place. Thereís nothing sinister about it, this witness is very relevant to this hearing, thank you Mr Chair.

DR BORAINE: Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I was hoping weíre going to be able to get the subpoena from the witness as he has promised us that and I will put my instructions to the witness having seen that copy but let me reserve my comments Sir.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

MR SEMENYA: May I though deal with one aspect with the witness?

DR BORAINE: Please go ahead.

MR SEMENYA: You are Zulu speaking Sir, are you not?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Were you confusing Sanele with Silent?

MR NTOMBENI: I donít speak Zulu A, I grew up in the location.

MR SEMENYA: I really give up.

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible] silent answer. Doctor Randera?

DR RANDERA: Mr Ntombeni, I just want to take you to your statement where you mention Cebekhulu, now that was when he was sent - or you alleged he was sent to kill Sponge, Mr Sibusiso Chili, what I want to ask you is how long did you know Cebekhulu and when was the first time that you saw him at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house?

MR NTOMBENI: I saw Cebekhulu for the first time at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís yard.

DR RANDERA: When?

MR NTOMBENI: I donít remember when that was but he arrived after me, I was already at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís place when Cebekhulu arrived.

DR RANDERA: But can I just remind you, you are saying that you were - at the end of December 1988, you were called and told that you were an informer and thatís when I assume you left the house, now are you telling me that Cebekhulu was at the house before that already?

MR NTOMBENI: When I left Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís yard I never left it permanently, I went to see them from time to time, I never left permanently.

DR RANDERA: But you are saying that you saw him then already, is that what youíre telling me?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

DR RANDERA: Thank you. My next questions flows from what youíre just saying that you were accused of being an informer at the end of 1988, you are then asked to leave or you leave the house and people come to you and leave again. Now the impression thatís being created here or what weíve heard over the last week and a half, is that hereís this football club where they find out that thereís an informer, the person either disappears or gets badly tortured.

But in your case you not only managed to survive this period, you managed to leave the country in 1992 when the ANC is legalised and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela - I would understand, has quite a lot of influence already in that situation. Now if she was as seems to be the impression created, if she was as vindictive, then how is it possible that you survived this period when people are saying that youíre an informer and not only that but you mange to leave on an ANC ticket to go to Uganda in 1992?

MR NTOMBENI: Where I used to stay there were a lot of people and I used to surround myself with a lot of people. I used to make sure that everyone that I knew, knew about my problem with Winnie Madikizela-Mandela until such time that I had to leave. I even went to Shell House when I submitted my biography to Viva and I told him, thatís when he arranged that I should leave the place.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Ms Mkhize?

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Chairperson.

I just want to ask you general question, when looking back now do you think your formation would have engaged in any of the activities like the assaults, the killings was it not for the influence of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Zinzi?

MR NTOMBENI: Could you repeat that question, I donít understand it.

MS MKHIZE: When looking back now - you have mentioned that your youth formation was formed with good intentions but in the process you got involved in the killings, the assaults and the torture of other people so my question is really - Iím trying to find out from you, do you think the club members or the group, the youth group which came together at that time, would you have done any of those things without the influence of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Zinzi?

MR NTOMBENI: I donít think we would have done that without her instructions.

MS MKHIZE: Can you tell us the reasons why you think the group on itís own wouldnít have done any of those things?

MR NTOMBENI: Itís because we were a group, we were staying at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís place and earlier on when we were with SOWYC, our Chairman used to show us the right way to conduct ourselves. He use to tell us the doís and the doníts up till such time that there were cracks within the youth league.

MS MKHIZE: Maybe putting it differently, in all these - I donít want to say human rights, the acts like the killings, the torture that you are talking about, your group members engaged on them after being instructed and there was nothing which was done by any of the group members on your own.

MR NTOMBENI: No, Iím not saying that they never used to anything on their own, I donít know whether there was anything they did on their own or there wasnít.

DR BORAINE: Sooka?

MS SOOKA: Do you know Jabu Sithole?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I do.

MS SOOKA: Did he also stay at Mrs Mandelaís home?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

MS SOOKA: Did you know him by a different name? Javis?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I used to call him Javis.

MS SOOKA: Was he known to Mrs Mandela?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

MS SOOKA: Was he a member of the football club?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, he was a member but he was not playing football or soccer.

MS SOOKA: What was he doing with the club then?

MR NTOMBENI: No, he would just come and go with us wherever we went and he used to go and watch us playing football.

MS SOOKA: Do you know Mr Madonsela?

MR NTOMBENI: No, I donít.

MS SOOKA: You used the name Magojo, was that person known to you as Wilson Sebuwani?

MR NTOMBENI: Wilson Sebilwane.

MS SOOKA: Magojo?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

MS SOOKA: Heís here?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, he is here.

MS SOOKA: Thank you very much.

DR BORAINE: Doctor Mgojo?

DR MGOJO: I just want to find out what your surname is, whether itís Zulu B as itís not Zulu A, are you Ntombeni or Ntumbeni?

MR NTOMBENI: Iím Ntombeni, not Ntumbeni.

DR MGOJO: Thereís a lot that you have seen happening to other people and this nearly happened to you as well, now Iíve got a problem because I keep on asking myself that youíve seen all the atrocities taking place like the torture, why is it that you never reported all these things to the police?

MR NTOMBENI: I wasnít going to be able to report this matter to the police because I was staying at Mrs Mandelaís place and I only went out when I was sent on specific errands. I only went out when I went to buy bread or other errands that I was sent on.

DR MGOJO: At the time that you were staying at Mrs Mandelaís house, did you have problems or were you scared of the police?

MR NTOMBENI: I did not trust the police, I did not particularly like them.

DR MGOJO: Thereís something that I donít understand in your statement and that is page 4 of your statement, you said at the time that you were assaulted at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís place you never went back to your respective homes after the assault but you stayed because you were scared that they were going to discover at your places that you had been assaulted.

MR NTOMBENI: No, not that we were scared but we were specifically instructed to remain in the yard until such time that our wounds had healed, the people who assaulted us gave us that instruction.

DR MGOJO: Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela know about that instruction or did she issue the instruction?

MR NTOMBENI: Iím not aware as to whether she knew.

DR MGOJO: Is it possible that she didnít know that you were ordered to stay?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, it is.

DR BORAINE: Right, Mr Ntombeni, thank you very much for appearing before the Commission, you may stand down now, thank you very much.

WITNESS EXCUSED

DR BORAINE: This session is adjourned ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible]

DR BORAINE: I donít believe this.

MR VALLY: Iím afraid youíll have to. Could we take Doctor Klapp before we have lunch, sheís not going to be long I believe?

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible] itís a matter of minutes we can take her, if itís not and itís more than that - unfortunately both the Archbishop and myself have an important engagement which we

have to honour.

MR VALLY: I can see on my part itís a matter of minutes, Iím not sure about my learned friends.

DR BORAINE: I call Doctor Patricia Klapp. Welcome Doctor Klapp, we are going to try and finish this before lunch but we are going to have to be pretty tight and Iím dependent not only on myself but on my colleagues in the legal fraternity but welcome, we are glad to see you and Miss Sooka will administer the oath.

MS SOOKA: Could you state your full names for the record please?

MS KLAPP: Patricia Jane Klapp.

MS SOOKA: Do you have any objection to taking the oath.

PATRICIA JANE KLAPP: (sworn states)

MS SOOKA: Thank you, you may be seated.

DR BORAINE: Mr Vally, are you leading the witness?

MR VALLY: I am.

DR BORAINE: Please proceed.

MR VALLY: Doctor Klapp, thank you very much for coming at such short notice. Firstly, briefly tell us what your profession is.

MS KLAPP: Iím forensic pathologist, a senior State pathologist at both the Johannesburg, the Diepkloof and the Roodepoort Government Mortuaries, Iím also Senior Lecturer in Forensic Pathology at the University of the Witwatersrand.

MR VALLY: Thank you very much. Without much further ado letís just go to the issue which weíve called you for. You conducted the post-mortem on Mr Stompie Sepei?

MS KLAPP: Yes.

MR VALLY: Can you briefly tell us in lay persons language what wounds you found on the corpse of Mr Stompie Sepei?

MS KLAPP: Yes, I have the report in front of me but in summary I gave the cause of death as: Penetrating Incised Wounds of his Neck - Subcutaneous Contusion.

MR VALLY: Now the first part, when you say Penetrating wounds etc., is that stab wounds?

MS KLAPP: Yes, we donít use the word: "stab" because "stab" would actually imply a mechanism of production but they are cut and they go in.

MR VALLY: All right, can you just - if you donít mind, either on the lady next to you or on yourself, point out where were these incised wounds as you call them?

MS KLAPP: There were two penetrating incised wounds over the right of the neck, over what we call the mastoid process, itís that bony petruberence behind the right ear, they measured 1.4cm and 1.6cm and were closely situated to each other.

There was a third wound over the left side of the neck - did you want me to demonstrate it?

MR VALLY: Yes please.

MS KLAPP: The two on the right side of the neck - if you could possibly turn the head, were behind the right ear and the one over the left side of the neck was in this region here and that was a larger wound that measured 4cm.

MR VALLY: Would that be a wound where - again I use lay personís language, someone was cutting rather than stabbing?

MS KLAPP: No, stab is correct, what we do have is a penetrating incised wound - if I used the word: "stab", Iím implying a mechanism of production, if you were to come to me and indicate that the person has fallen onto a sharp object then there hasnít been a "stab".

MR VALLY: I see.

MS KLAPP: Bur for all intents and purposes from what we hear these are stab wounds of the neck.

MR VALLY: Fine. Would you be able - through your post-mortem, to distinguish between what in lay personís language we call a "stab" or if someoneís actually trying to cut someoneís throat, would you be able to perhaps distinguish between those two?

MS KLAPP: Yes, what we understand by: "cut-throat" is a large wound right in front of the neck, they are on occasions self-inflicted but may be inflicted by somebody else but what we have here are three discrete penetrating incised wounds of the neck, this is not a "cut-throat".

MR VALLY: Fine. And any other wounds that you observed on the body?

MS KLAPP: Well, the body was in a marked state of decomposition which made the examination of it very difficult but one could determine by actually cutting in - and in fact the photographs are here as well to demonstrate what Iíd found, is there was extensive what we call: "subcutaneous contusion" which is bruising beneath the skin.

It occurred on top over the top of head, on both sides of the head, both buttocks, the lower back, the left thigh and the right calf - perhaps I must just check that Iím absolutely correct. I described it as the lower back, both buttocks, the left thigh and the right calf that was bleeding beneath the skin.

MR VALLY: Would that be consistent with an assault?

MS KLAPP: Yes, it is, itís due to: "blunt trauma" , in other words either the body coming up against something hard or something hard coming up against the body.

MR VALLY: Were there any other wound that you observed? Weíve got the three stab wounds, weíve got the overall effect of the assaults of the body - youíve mentioned the head and the body, were there any other wounds of any kind?

MS KLAPP: There may have been more injuries but due to the marked state of decomposition, the brain had liquefied but with that bruising of the scalp one would in fact expect damage of the brain within the cranial cavity. I was unable to assess that due to the liquefaction of the brain.

MR VALLY: Thank you Doctor Klapp.

DR BORAINE: Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: I have no questions.

DR BORAINE: Any one else? Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: One question.

My client Mr Richardson has described killing Mr Sepei by slaughtering him like a sheep, at that implies splitting the throat, are the wounds consistent with that description?

MS KLAPP: There has not been a slaughtering of the neck, we have three discrete wounds measuring the sizes of which I have given you. I do mention in the report that the two on the right hand side do not communicate with the one on the left, in other words there are two on the right, one on the left which do not cross the mid line.

I understand a: "cut throat" as a little cutting of the throat in which the trachea would be damaged, the asophogus would be damaged and we donít have that here.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Anybody else? Dr Randera?

DR RANDERA: Just one questions Doctor, were there any fractures?

MS KLAPP: There was a fracture of the left clavicle if Iím not mistaken. I x-rayed the body and there was a fracture of the left clavicle, 2cm from the sterna clavicular joint.

DR RANDERA: There were no fractures of the skull?

MS KLAPP: No fractures of the skull.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Miss Sooka?

MS SOOKA: Just quickly Doctor, you say: "stab wound", would that be consistent with the use of a knife or a dagger, what kind of weapon?

MS KLAPP: Yes, I described the two wounds over the right side of the neck as being canoe-shaped, normally when a canoe-shaped wound is inflicted itís with a weapon such as a dagger, in other words it has two sharp edges to the blade.

The one on the left hand side of the neck did not have the same configuration, Iíve just described it as a penetrating incised wound but certainly the two - and again itís borne out by the photographs, have two distinctly sharp edges to the wound.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much Doctor Klapp, Iím particularly grateful to you ...[intervention]

MS KLAPP: Thanks.

DR BORAINE: Wait a minute, I want to thank you. I want to thank you very much particularly for the precise way and professional way in which you responded to the questions, thank you for your evidence, thank you.

We are now adjourned until 2.30p.m.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Please sit down, that means put youíre posterior on the seat! Thank you, there are still people who donít know what that means.

We call Lerothodi Ikaneng, sorry, we call Euvodia Nkadimeng.

Is there a briefer, thank you. I know you are probably also feeling tired but you are expected to be untiring. Miss Nkadimeng, welcome (No English translation), thank you very much.

MS SOOKA: Can you state your full names for the record please.

MS NKADIMENG: I am Magali Euvodia Nkadimeng.

MS SOOKA: Thank you.

MAGALI EUVODIA NKADIMENG: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: We have lost our legal team.

MR VALLY: Iím sorry Archbishop, I was looking for Miss Nkadimengís attorney but Iíve found him.

MR JORDI: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, I thought it would be Lerothodi Ikaneng next.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VALLY: Mr Peter Jordi.

MR JORDI: Miss Nkadimeng, do you know somebody by the name of Johannes Temba or did you know somebody by the name of Johannes Temba Mabotha?

MS NKADIMENG: I know him.

MR JORDI: Can you please just repeat the answer for me?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, I know him.

MR JORDI: Can you tell me in what circumstances you got to know him or knew him?
MS NKADIMENG: On the 26th of January 1988, I was detained from my home in Mankweng which is in Pietersburg and I was taken to Potgieterus Police cells and I discovered that I was not the only person in those police cells, there were another three and the three of them were men.

Temba was one of those people, thatís how I knew him. Whilst in the cell the comrades who were there wrote me letters ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Donít wait for the interpretation, just carry on.

MR JORDI: Miss Nkadimeng, is it necessary for you to speak the language that youíre speaking currently because I know your English is excellent, wouldnít you prefer to speak in English? - you were going to speak in English.

MS NKADIMENG: Okay I donít mind talking in English.

MR JORDI: Okay.

MS NKADIMENG: All these comrades communicated with me by using underground letters and these letters were delivered to my by the sentenced prisoners when they were coming to clean our cells and each of the comrades explained himself to me. There was a comrade called George, there was a comrade called Makama, there was a comrade called Temba (end of tape - no sound for follow on)

MR JORDI: ... released from custody.

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: When was that? Do you know approximately?

MS NKADIMENG: It was in 1988 because I spent five months in prison and I was released during July 1988 and I was restricted at home so I stayed at home and one of the good days I went to the shop.

When I came back my family told me that there was a person with the name of Johannes Mabotha who came there and wanted to see me. They told him that I was away and then he left but promised that he would come the following day and he did come the following day.

MR JORDI: And thereafter, what happened between you and him?

MS NKADIMENG: On that day when he found me at home, he asked me to accompany me him to a certain township in Tzaneen called Linyene and I agreed.

MR JORDI: As I understand you got to know him quite well, is that correct?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, I would say so.

MR JORDI: Thereafter you visited other people in custody and they mentioned things to you that they knew regarding Temba, can you tell me about that?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes. Before Temba could come to my home for the first time as a comrade and as an activist, I was supposed to visit other comrades who were in detention by then and the fortunate part it was that one of the comrades was MK cadre and he was awaiting trial by then.

When I paid the visit to him he told me that he knew a certain person called Johannes Mabotha and I asked him how did he come to know this person, he told me that Temba was removed from the Potgieterus cells and he was taken to Pietersburg Police cells wherein he found this comrade in the next cell.

This comrade by then was just under Section 29 and then Temba told them that he knew me, he met me at Potgietersrust and also he wanted to know my activities from those comrades and that is how it happened.

MR JORDI: What did you start to feel about Temba at this time.

MS NKADIMENG: I was frightened because I knew Temba told me that while we were in Potgietersrust that he will visit me at home when he gets released.

MR JORDI: Did you have a sense that he was reliable, somebody to be trusted or did you feel otherwise about him?

MS NKADIMENG: At first when he started communicating with me in Pogietersrust he told me about a certain cadre who was residing in Mankweng called Lucky Sikosana, I knew Lucky, he was a comrade and we regarded him as a comrade. But then, after my release when I was under restrictions at home, I was surprised to find Lucky at home and I enquired from my fellow comrades who were not detained, about this question of Lucky being around here.

They told me horrible things about Lucky and I started to suspect that since Temba knows about Lucky and now Lucky is working for the police, then it means that these two people have connections and that confirmed what my comrades in prison told me.

MR JORDI: So you understood that Lucky was working for the police, Temba had contacts with Lucky and therefore Temba was somebody who you should be suspicious about?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: In January 1989 you were visited at home, is that right?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: Can you tell me who visited you and in what circumstances?
MS NKADIMENG: Early 1989 - that was January, Temba came to my home but I was not around as I went to the pre-school to fetch the smaller kids and I was with my sister. When we approached my home we saw two men wearing black suits and they were all wearing black spectacles, we wondered what were the men doing at our home because there was nobody there at that time and it was during the day.

We arrived at home and I realised that this is Temba but he was with a stranger, we greeted them and we welcomed them and then Temba introduced this stranger to me as Jerry Richardson and Temba told me that they are from Soweto, they are from Mrs Mandelaís house.

But because Temba knew that I was so suspicious - every time I was too suspicious about his information, I just told myself that Temba is trying to win my confidence so I need not believe too much on that.

MR JORDI: Did you find it plausible that he knew somebody at Winnie Mandelaís house or that he could associate with people from the Mandela household?

MS NKADIMENG: I just didnít trust his information.

MR JORDI: So what did you do to establish whether his information was correct or not?

MS NKADIMENG: What I did, I asked Jerry if they really came from Winnie Mandelaís house and Jerry confirmed the dates.

MR JORDI: What else did he tell you that proved to be confirmatory for you as far as his allegation that he came from the Mandela household was concerned?

MS NKADIMENG: Jerry just confirmed that they came from Winnie Mandelaís house but then Temba told me another story. Jerry went outside - he was not around the yard because it was very hot inside the house, I stayed with Temba and Temba told me that:

"You know Euvodia, in Mrs Mandelaís house I am a trusted person"

And I said:

"How did they come to trust you"?

He said:

"You cannot even believe it, you know I know that Mrs Mandela has got white hair"

I said:

"Temba, how do you come to know that"?

He said: "No, Mrs Mandela allowed here here"

He point it out and then he also told me:

"You know, thereís nobody whoís allowed to use her bathroom except myself"

So this thing made me to be very much suspicious that there might be a relationship between these two people but then I also had some reservations about Tembaís information since I got the information that he is a very dangerous person and he is also an Askari.

MR JORDI: Later in 1989 you were again visited at home by Temba, is that right?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: Can you describe to me what the circumstances were surrounding that visit? Who came to your house with Temba and what did you do as a result of that visit?

MS NKADIMENG: It was during the night, I was with my family and my mother was not there, there was a knock on the door and I asked: "Who is that"? Temba replied itís him so I opened the door. He greeted me and told me that heís not going stay for a long time because he has come with some people and I have to accommodate those people.

When he opened the door I saw Xoliswa, Katiza Cebekhulu and there was this guy called Bosmonts.

MR JORDI: So Xoliswa - when you refer to Xoliswa, who are you referring to?

MS NKADIMENG: Itís Xoliswa Falati.

MR JORDI: Thank you. So these people arrived at your house and what did they do after their arrival?

MS NKADIMENG: Because it was during the night I slept with Xoliswa in the same bedroom and I made sure that Bosmonts and Katiza sleep there.

MR JORDI: Did you speak to them and establish why they had come unannounced at your home?

MS NKADIMENG: It was after Temba didnít fulfil his appointment that I established their mission.

MR JORDI: When you say Temba didnít fulfil his appointment, can you just explain what you mean please?

MS NKADIMENG: When Temba asked me that night to accommodate these three people, he said to me that heís going to come and collect them the following morning. Okay, I accommodated those people but then Temba didnít come back that very day.

MR JORDI: And what did you start to feel after he had not arrived - and I understand you heard rumours circulating in the community?

MS NKADIMENG: At first I reserved my opinion about that because I couldnít just divulge the whole information before I could get the information from Xoliswa as to who are they, where are they from, whatís their mission around here.

So, what happened here, ...[indistinct] the disappearance of Temba, Xoliswa started to introduce herself to me and she told me that they come from Mrs Mandelaís house in Soweto and that they were on their way to Lusaka. She explained to me about Stompieís case and then she told me that they are going to Lusaka to tell the truth to Oliver Tambo.

MR JORDI: I understand that you then discussed Temba with Miss Falati, is that correct?

MS NKADIMENG: I took my restriction actually before that. What happened here is that Temba came again - after the disappearance and not fulfilling the promise that he promised me, he came again and he took Bosmont and then he disappeared.

Then after all this - after Xoliswa had actually explained the whole thing, I started to doubt the information that came from my comrades in prison and the information that I got now during that time when Temba and Richardson came to my home as well as the information I got from Xoliswa at that time.

MR JORDI: You started to doubt the information, what did you do about your doubts?

MS NKADIMENG: What I did was I gave Xoliswa my restriction orders and then after - in the afternoon, my younger sister was schooling at ...[indistinct] University, she was on her way to my home and she met a certain brother of an activist right in the township. He gave her the message that I must know that the security police from Pietersberg have gone to that comradeís house and they were on their way to my home.

MR JORDI: So what did you do about that?

MS NKADIMENG: What I did was, I took Xoliswa and Katiza to a certain comradeís home and that comrade is the one with whom I was always liaising about Tembaís stories.

MR JORDI: So after you made these arrangements for your visitors, am I right in thinking you discussed the question of Tembaís reliability with your visitors.

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, at that comradeís house.

MR JORDI: And what did you decide to do during the course of that discussion, what conclusion did you reach?

MS NKADIMENG: After revealing the whole thing, Xoliswa confirmed that itís true that Temba might be an Askari because of one thing - they also suspected him when they were in Soweto but then they found there was a difference. When they reported their suspicions to Mrs Mandela, Mrs Mandela kept becoming closer to Temba.

They became confused but then after revealing the whole thing to Xoliswa, Xoliswa asked me to accompany her back to Mrs Mandelaís home in Soweto, Diepkloof Extension so that I - because my information seems to be very concrete, I should come and explain this Temba story to Mrs Mandela, maybe she might change her mind.

MR JORDI: So you decided then with Miss Falati to go to Soweto, is that right?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: You then arrived in Soweto and what did you do on arrival in Soweto?

MS NKADIMENG: When we arrived in Soweto that very day, we arrived at Mrs Mandelaís house and Mrs Mandela was there. Xoliswa knocked on the door and then Mrs Mandela came but when she opened the door she was so surprised she screamed and that confirmed that she knew about Xoliswaís mission.

MR JORDI: Your role was then explained to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, is that right?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: Can you describe what happened during that process?

MS NKADIMENG: We went into the house, we were welcome, I was with a certain comrade - I mean who is the owner of that house which - with that comrade who accommodated Xoliswa at Pietersburg so I went with him to Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house.

We were welcomed in the house, it was myself, the comrade - the comradeís name is Archibald Mshlala, there was Vizi, there was Mrs Mandela, there was Xoliswa. Then we held a meeting and I had to explain myself from the day I knew Temba and where did I get to know Temba and what happened and all the suspicions until the day that he left Xoliswa at my home.

MR JORDI: What decision was reached after you gave this information?

MS NKADIMENG: I wouldnít say there was any decision taken in that meeting because Temba wasnít present at that time and we didnít know about his whereabouts and ...[indistinct] and Bosmontís whereabouts.

It just happened that I explained the whole issue and my comrade from the township also confirmed the whole issue and then the meeting dispersed, then we were just around the yard.

MR JORDI: And I understand that Temba arrived at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house shortly after this initial meeting, is that correct?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: Can you tell me what happened on his arrival?

MS NKADIMENG: Temba arrived the following day after my arrival, then what I heard - because I was not there, when he arrived what I heard was that when he arrived, he just said: "Where are those impimpieís"?

MR JORDI: Who was he referring to when he referred to impimpies?

MS NKADIMENG: He was referring to me and Xoliswa.

MR JORDI: And what was the result of his allegation that you were an informer?
MS NKADIMENG: What I understood - because during the conversation I was not present during that time when he explained his position, I was just told that he implicated me as an impimpi and then there was a decision made and I was called the following day to come and explain myself exactly the way I did for the first time.

MR JORDI: Where were you invited to go?

MS NKADIMENG: It was at Mrs Mandelaís office.

MR JORDI: And who was present when you met Mrs Madikizela-Mandela at her offices?

MS NKADIMENG: That very day when I heard, I was taken to the office and I knocked on the door of the office - I was with Xoliswa, I knocked on the door and the door was opened, I got in, I only found Mrs Mandela and Temba in the office.

MR JORDI: So you found Mrs Madikizela-Mandela there as well as Temba and what happened after you saw them there?

MS NKADIMENG: When I entered the office, Temba winked an eye to me and I couldnít understand what he was trying to communicate to me, then I sat down and Mrs Mandela told me: "Okay, Euvodia, here is Temba, he has come back and I told him the whole story about what you said when you came to me but then he denied the whole allegation, so I called you here to come and present the story - just as you did when you arrived here, in front of him.

MR JORDI: Did you present the story?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, I did.

MR JORDI: What was the result of you passing on this information to Temba and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MS NKADIMENG: While I was talking Temba became emotional but then I told Mrs Mandela: "Iím not going to allow anybody in this office to intimidate me, I would like to feel safe being in this office also. Itís my Presidentís office if thatís the way it is and I have to feel free.

MR JORDI: Now, I understand that you spent approximately a month in Soweto living with Miss Falati but spending most of your time in the Madikizela-Mandela home, is that correct?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: And that you were then arrested by the police in February 1989 whilst you were at Miss Falatiís home one night as a result of the investigation into the death of Stompie Sepei.

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: And that you were thereafter detained at the Protea Police Station, can you tell me what happened when you were questioned by they police at the Protea Police Station?

MS NKADIMENG: When I entered the interrogation room, my interrogators told me that Iím being charged under Section 29 and I flatly refused and they asked me why do I refuse, I told them that I donít belong to Section 29 and I know the people who belong to Section 29, so I donít regard myself as a detainee of Section 29 and I donít allow it.

MR JORDI: And what happened as a result of your perhaps unique resistance to being detained under Section 29?

MS NKADIMENG: I told them that there is a story that happened to me and they were not there when these things happened to me and as such they have to listen to me and after the whole story they must give me a charge and I will accept it because I know what my charge is.

MR JORDI: So you said that they must know the whole story from you?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: Did you tell them what you knew?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes. What they said was that they understood that I was moving around with an MK cadre called Temba and that is why they wanted to detain me under Section 29, they thought I was a trained cadre.

I asked them: "Are you sure that Temba is an MK cadre"? They said: "No, we want to get the story from you" and I said: "Okay, then you listen to me". I related the whole story, how I knew Temba and how I came to land in Soweto.

MR JORDI: What did you tell them about your suspicions regarding Temba?

MS NKADIMENG: I told them that I got this information from my comrades who know Temba and also that Tembaís actions made a lot of suspicions and thatís why I refused this question of Section 29.

MR JORDI: How did this interrogation terminate, what event happened?

MS NKADIMENG: What happened was, that very day they took me to Morrocca Police station because they said in Protea they didnít have female cells. I slept there - sorry, during that time - towards the end of the interrogation, their phone rang in the very same interrogation office and what happened was that my interrogator told me that:

"Do you Euvodia, do you know what they are saying over the phone"?

and I said:

"No, I donít know"

He said:

"They say Temba has been arrested"

I said:

"where"

He said:

"In Groblersdal"

and he could see that I didnít believe what he was saying.

He said to me:

"No, Iím going to ask him to bring Temba here tomorrow and youíre going to see him"

MR JORDI: Did you see him the following day??

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, I did.

MR JORDI: During your interrogation you spoke to a Lieutenant Augustine, is that right?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: What did you discuss with him?

MS NKADIMENG: Because he was my interrogator he was busy asking me questions and in some of them he wanted to know about the reaction of Mrs Mandela when I arrived at her home for the first time and explained myself and also explained the question of Tembaís suspicions.

He wanted to know the reaction of Mrs Mandela at that time when I said those things but then I couldnít divulge that reaction to him because I knew they were the police at that time and that was apartheid, I was afraid that they would use my name against Mrs Mandela.

MR JORDI: What was Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís reaction to what you divulged to her regarding Temba?

MS NKADIMENG: I could see from her face that she was shocked because she even excused herself for a few minutes from that meeting after I explained the whole thing.

MR JORDI: You say that a phone call was made to say that Temba had been arrested and he was brought to Protea Police Station the following day?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: Did you see him the following day?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR JORDI: What condition was he in when you saw him?

MS NKADIMENG: He was handcuffed on the feet and also on the hands and I found him seated on the chair with those handcuffs and the security police were surrounding the four walls of the room. I entered and then they asked Temba to identify me:

They asked him:

"Do you know this woman"?

He said:

"Yes"

And they said:

"Whoís this woman"?

And he said:

"Euvodia Nkadimeng"

And they said:

"Your girlfriend"

And he said:

"No"

MR JORDI: Did you think at any stage that you were Tembaís girlfriend?

MS NKADIMENG: No, I didnít take my affair with Temba of being a love affair because I was on a mission of exposing this person due to my comradesí in prison instructions.

MR JORDI: Can you describe when you last saw Temba? In what circumstances did you see him?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes. Temba was assaulted, I could see there was blood on the lips and then what happened the very last moment was that after he identified me in that interrogating room, they never asked me any questions about that and then they just took us together with Temba in a private car to Middleburg Police Station.

When we arrived in Middelburg, they took Temba for - before that, I complained about hunger to the security and then they told me that they did not have money but they would send someone to the police station to find money to buy food. Temba offered me a pie, it was in his pocket and then he asked me to take it out as he was handcuffed and they took Temba for a few minutes into the police station and then thereafter they took him to another car and that was my last time I saw Temba.

MR JORDI: I understand that you heard that he had been killed whilst in police custody and that Colonel de Kock was linked to his death, is that right?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, I read it in the Sunday Times.

MR JORDI: Thank you Miss Nkadimeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Hanif?

MR VALLY: Miss Nkadimeng, when you went to Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house and you informed her that Mr Johannes Temba Mabotha was an informer, were you at that stage aware of - in those time and weíre talking about 1988/1989, as to how alleged informers would be treated by political activists?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, I would say.

MR VALLY: And can you tell us what you would have expected or what you knew would happen to alleged informers?

MS NKADIMENG: I usually read about that, that they were killed.

MR VALLY: Will you repeat that please?

MS NKADIMENG: I usually read from the press that when comrades get informers they kill them.

MR VALLY: Did anything happen to Mr Mabotha at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house when you were staying there for a month?

MS NKADIMENG: No, nothing happened, actually he was treated more like a comrade than an informer.

MR VALLY: Were you surprised at this?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, too much surprised because thatís what I never expected.

MR VALLY: There are certain other issues that I want to place before the Commission. At Colonel Eugene de Kockís trial - this is not a question for you Miss Nkadimeng, these are just some things I want to place before the Commission. At Colonel Eugene de Kockís trial he does make mention of a Mr Johannes Mabotha who was apparently executed by him and subsequently whoís body was blown up. Iím advised that he has also made an amnesty application in connection with Mr Mabothaís death.

I also want to place on record that Captain Daniel Potgieter had made an application for amnesty because in Colonel Eugene de Kockís trial, Colonel Eugene de Kock stated that Mr Johannes Mabotha had been handed to him by Captain Jan Potgieter with the instructions to do away with him. Captain Potgieter in his amnesty application denies this, he says he merely handed over Mr Johannes Mabotha to Colonel de Kock to look after him.

But weíve got it on record and the amnesty application of Mr Jan Potgieter is available and so is the trial record of Colonel Eugene de Kock - the relevant portion of the trial record. I have no further questions of this witness Archbishop.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.

Maíam can you tell me what human rights violations involving the Mandela Football Club or Mrs Mandela are you testifying about?

MS NKADIMENG: I wonít say anything because when I was there I didnít see anything happening about maybe the assaults or whatever.

MR SEMENYA: But why are you here? Thatís my question.

MS NKADIMENG: Okay. The reason Iím here is because my own human rights were violated. At that time I was supposed to be at college doing a third year, I couldnít for two years because in Ď88 I spent five months in detention and again during my release - I was released during the year and I was restricted.

The following year when I tried to arrange again to go to school Temba came, that was 1989 and I was detained again for five months and going to court and appearing in court every month. Mind you, I was charged with crossing the restriction orders and that charge I accepted because itís what I did and I did it under pressure.

I appeared in court every month for five months but I ...[intervention]

MR SEMENYA: Can I interrupt you Maíam?

MS NKADIMENG: Pardon?

MR SEMENYA: Can I interrupt you?

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, could I interrupt Mr Semenya?

CHAIRPERSON: Who is interrupting whom? Yes?

MR VALLY: Miss Nkadimeng was requested by ourselves to come to this hearing, the reason she was requested to come to this hearing is in following up information given to us by the police officers who were here yesterday in trying to track down the whole issue of Mr Johannes Mabotha, especially as we had obtained a copy of a human rights violations statement by a family member of Mr Johannes Mabotha.

We found out about Miss Nkadimeng because her name was also mentioned by Miss Xoliswa Falati and we have requested her to give evidence here, it wasnít as if sheís approached us, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I donít know whether I should have any use for this commentary which is telling me about how Mr Mabotha was killed by de Kock by blowing him up. Weíre supposed to be here Iím told, to listen to human rights violations about the soccer team and Mrs Mandela. I donít see the connection and why this witness is just sprung on us again.

On the 7th day of the hearings again this morning weíre given a document to start reading and Iím trying to make a connection. How is the evidence of this witness connected with the issues before this Commission?

MR VALLY: I think itís obvious Mr Chairperson. There are a number of legs to this, the first leg is the issue of Xoliswa Falati and Katiza Cebekhulu being sent out of the country to contact the press from outside the country regarding the whole Stompie issue.

The second issue of relevance is the fact that an informer is in the Madikizela-Mandela household, that this information is brought to Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís attention and nothing happens, especially since there has been allegations regarding how informers have been treated or alleged informers have been treated, so both issues are entirely relevant to this particular enquiry.

To what extent were the police complicit in the incidents that happened at the Madikizela-Mandela household - number one, number two, to what extent is the Mandela United Football Club and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela involved in the whole issue of Stompie and the subsequent attempts at covering up.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should put your questions to the witness.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.

Maíam you were telling us about Xoliswa Falati, Richardson and Cebekhulu on their way to Lusaka when they come to your home?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And all of a sudden they are no longer going to Lusaka, they are coming back with you to Soweto?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Can you explain that to us.

MS NKADIMENG: Since I was restricted, I felt that ...[indistinct] that I was still detained but at home and then after getting this information that these people are from Mrs Mandela and theyíre on their way to Lusaka, I couldnít be an inbetweener. I couldnít stop their trip but as the situation that prevailed at that time - after hearing the message from my comrades that the police are looking for you, there was no way I could just leave that situation as it is.

MR SEMENYA: Can I interrupt you Maíam? Why did Xoliswa Falati, Richardson and Katiza Cebekhulu not go to Lusaka as they were on route to Lusaka, do you know?

MS NKADIMENG: Sorry for the correction, Richardson was not involved in this trip, it was Xoliswa, Cebekhulu and Bosmont, not Richardson.

MR SEMENYA: Okay, why did Bosmont, Xoliswa and Cebekhulu not continue to Lusaka, do you know?

MS NKADIMENG: Temba left them at my home.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know why they didnít proceed to Lusaka?

MS NKADIMENG: May you repeat your question?

MR SEMENYA: Do you know why they didnít proceed to Lusaka?

MS NKADIMENG: I think itís because I stopped because of the information from the police cells, thatís why ...[indistinct] ...[intervention]

MR SEMENYA: Because ...[intervention]

MS NKADIMENG: Firstly, itís because of the disappointment of Temba and secondly itís because I got the information from the comrades about the police who were seeking me and what came into my thoughts was: "Okay, Temba dropped these people here and he went to call the police to come and detain me together with these people" when I didnít even know how to handle the whole situation.

MR SEMENYA: So, you managed to stop them and said: "Guys, youíre not going there"?

MS NKADIMENG: I would say so because I had to make them return to Soweto.

MR SEMENYA: Weíre told that when people are classified informers at Mrs Mandelaís house they are assaulted and some are killed, did anybody threaten you there?

MS NKADIMENG: The threats - he didnít come face to face but the way the information circulated within that house I could feel that I was in real danger and I could be killed at any time.

MR SEMENYA: Did anybody lift an arm for you?

MS NKADIMENG: No.

MR SEMENYA: Did anybody use vile language against you?

MS NKADIMENG: No.

MR SEMENYA: Did anybody say they were going to kill you?

MS NKADIMENG: Not at Mrs Mandelaís house. As I am explaining that the way the information circulated - after Temba alleged that I was an Askari - I mean I was an informer, there was tension between me and Mrs Mandela, there was no trust between me and Mrs Mandela.

And as I said, Mrs Mandela was always in the company of Temba. Temba I understand was busy everyday, he was busy fabricating stories against me but he was not telling me straight. He would tell Mrs Mandela and Mrs Mandela would tell Xoliswa, Xoliswa would come to me and I would deny the whole thing and Xoliswa would go and tell Mrs Mandela again that: "Euvodia is denying the whole thing". Temba got again - with those stories on an everyday basis until I was arrested.

MR SEMENYA: You say Mr Mabotha was your boyfriend?

MS NKADIMENG: I say so.

MR SEMENYA: Was Mr Mabotha your boyfriend?

MS NKADIMENG: I would say in quotes because I said yes to his proposal and even when we went to Tzaneen he slept with me.

MR SEMENYA: What does that mean?

MS NKADIMENG: I cannot answer that one, I think itís obvious to everybody.

MR SEMENYA: Itís because you say you had a relationship with him in quotes, now I donít understand what you mean by quotes.

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, what I mean when I say - you asked me if Mr Mabotha was my boyfriend and I said: "in quotes" because as I explained before that I didnít take that affair as anybody would take it any normal affair between two people.

MR SEMENYA: And yet you sleep with him.

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, I slept with him.

MR SEMENYA: Maíam

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, this is not a film.

MR SEMENYA: Let me put it to you that Johannes Mabotha is not Temba, the name Temba was given to him by Mrs Mandela.

MS NKADIMENG: Can I give my version about that?

MR SEMENYA: Yes.

MS NKADIMENG: Yes.

MS NKADIMENG: In prison Johannes Mabotha told me that he is Johannes Mabotha, thatís his real name and thatís what I established when I was released but then when I went to Mrs Mandelaís house I found her calling him by that name of Temba.

MR SEMENYA: Thatís right.

MS NKADIMENG: I assumed it was a nickname but the real thing is, he is Johannes Mabotha and not Mabothe - t - h - a.

MR SEMENYA: But let me tell you why he was using that name, he was using the name because heís the very first person who disclosed the Vlakplaas story which was communicated to Lusaka, can you deny that Maíam?

MS NKADIMENG: I cannot deny that because I only found him being referred to as Temba, as to the origin of the name I cannot tell.

MR SEMENYA: You come from Pietersburg, youíd know there are no Tembaís there because thatís a Zulu or Xhosa name. Is that right?

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, itís a Zulu name I think.

MR SEMENYA: Thatís right. And now it begins to make sense why de Kock blew up the poor man, because of the information that Richardson, yourself and Xoliswa must have communicated to the police.

MS NKADIMENG: Do you want me to confirm that or?

MR SEMENYA: I want your response Maíam.

MS NKADIMENG: No, I donít think so.

MR SEMENYA: Why does he get arrested when you are there with the security police?

MS NKADIMENG: What happened at the house of Mrs Mandela was very clear that if I move out of the house to anywhere Temba will follow me because I revealed about him what he never expected.

MR SEMENYA: Iíll ask you that question again, why is Temba arrested by the security at the time he is with you?

MS NKADIMENG: Actually Temba was not with me because the security told me that he was arrested in Grobblersdal and by that time I was arrested in Soweto.

MR SEMENYA: So youíre arrested to identify him to be the correct person, isnít that right?

MS NKADIMENG: Actually when they brought Temba to me I was not asked any questions to identify the man. They asked him to identify me and he identified me clearly because I never had any means, those were the right means and he said that. I was never asked by the security to identify the man.

MR SEMENYA: Were you ever charged arising out of your arrest of that moment when you last saw Temba?

MS NKADIMENG: Was I ever charged?

MR SEMENYA: Yes.

MS NKADIMENG: Yes, I was.

MR SEMENYA: For what?

MS NKADIMENG: For crossing the restrictions, for moving from Pietersburg to Soweto without permission from the security police as I was restricted person.

MR SEMENYA: Maíam I want to put it to you that you are a police operative and you had caused the death of Temba at the hands of de Kock.

MS NKADIMENG: Thatís up to you.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. It is going to be important for that fact to be established because as all of us know even today it is one of the most dangerous things to assert and it will be important that it is established beyond reasonable doubt.

MR VALLY: Archbishop, I just want to say in terms of - because itís a serious allegation which has been thrown at Miss Nkadimeng, in terms of the application of Captain Potgieter he states - and this in Afrikaans so Iím going to ...[indistinct] translate it:

"While the matter of - I believe Stompie Sepei was being investigated, Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís telephone was being tapped"

and Iím even told that in terms of Section 118 of the Post Office Act, but goes on:

"Whilst listening in it came to our attention ("aan die lig gekom") that a person named Goerge ( Johannes Mabotha) was on the scene and it could be determined that he was possibly a trained MK military person.

While listening in it was determined that George on a certain date was in the Marble Hall area and he needed money to get back to Soweto, he requested Mrs Mandela to telegraph money to the local Post Office.

On receipt of the said money George was arrested by members of the security branch and (Soweto Opspoorings Eenheid), he was arrested"

And this is from Captain Potgieter.

"although I wasnít personally present"

I will give this amnesty application to Mr Semenya, annexed to it is also the relevant section of the de Kock trial transcript, thank you Mr Chair.

MR JORDI: Mr Chairman, Iíd like to know from my learned friend Mr Semenya, whether the version he has put to Miss Nkadimeng is in accordance with his instructions and what the basis for his allegation against Miss Nkadimeng is.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you be able to answer that?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I have put the assertion to the witness on the strength of information that suggests that the witness would have been in collaboration with Jerry Richardson and Cebekhulu when at a time - as my client would say, she did not know that these people had some contact with the police, that is the basis on which the statement was made to the particular witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Iím sorry, you are saying that her association with those people therefore is what - you are making assertion in the form of a statement, is it a question? Is it that you are saying that it is factual because I do have to say that is one thing that I think we as a Commission - knowing where we come, need to seek to protect people as far as possible.

If there is independent evidence incontrovertible evidence then of course the assertion must stand but I donít think that we as a Commission will - I canít certainly allow the assertion to be made unless we have reasonable evidence that that is the case just because you and I know where we come from. That is - even today I think in a sense, almost a death sentence.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, all Iím able to say is, I have made the proposition to the witness and invited the witness to respond to it. As far as I am aware, the witness elected not to deny or admit it.

MS SOOKA: I think Mr Semenya, there are two questions that are being posed to you. The one is, do you have a factual basis for the proposition that youíre putting and the alternative to that is - I think as Mr Jordi requested, are those your clients instructions that you put that question to the witness and thus far I havenít heard you answer either of the questions.

MR SEMENYA: They are my instructions Madam Commissioner, they are my instructions Madam Commissioner.

MR JORDI: Mr Chairman, my learned friend said they were a supposition based on Miss Nkadimengís association with - by chance on the version sheís given, with Mr Cebekhulu and Mr Jerry Richardson. I would think that this is a dangerous position for Mr Semenya to take given his clientís lengthy association with both Mr Cebekhulu and Mr Richardson and I ask my learned friend to withdraw the remark he made against my client - against Miss Nkadimeng.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I have nothing to withdraw. If my learned colleague wants to accuse me of having acted unprofessionally, I think we have a forum where he would lay the complaint and I will defend it.

CHAIRPERSON: Weíve had your response and there is a point that you have made that if it is by association then the conclusion would be that those who have associated with the same persons would therefore itso facto be defined in the same way.

And I think that you need to be aware of that, that is what is being said that on your own admission it would be that we donít have to prove that - nobody has to prove it, it is that those who have been associated with those persons must therefore be and I think itís a very dangerous position.

And I would hope that - it would be important that it be reconsidered and if it is your considered position, it is your considered position and we will have to take note of that.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I donít know whether my learned colleague says therefore Mrs Mandela must be an informer? And if that is the proposition he is putting then clearly Chairperson, against the admonition which Iím reading from the Chair, he canít make that proposition again. ...[inaudible] has a factual basis to suggest it.

MR JORDI: Mr Chairman, I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, have you finished?

MR SEMENYA: Iíve finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Iím always very careful, I want you to put your point as clearly as you can. I donít want to be unfair especially to you but now, do you want to respond?

MR JORDI: I donít really want to take this matter much further, it seems that weíre wasting time on a relatively petty point but I just wanted to note that it was not the instructions of any of my clients nor of Miss Nkadimeng that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was a police informer.

I think my learned friend Mr Semenya has twisted my words and my argument. Iím not alleging that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela is an informer, Iím just saying that on his own logic he leads himself to conclude that his client must have been a police informer because she associated with Mr Cebekhulu and Mr Richardson and I donít think I can add anything further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I have made my point and Iím saying please, please, all of us need to be extremely careful. Once you make that particular kind of assertion - any one of us, it is very difficult for anyone to disprove it. It is a ghastly thing and weíve listened here - on the whole what has then happened is that maybe the police say they confirm that so and so actually was collaborating with them but again knowing what the police were like, you canít take that at face value, you have to have found other evidence that corroborates that.

But I have made my - if you like, I donít say itís, well itís probably a ruling that please, letís be extremely careful what we do say about people - everybody, thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, can I welcome that ruling and indicate that I think equally difficult must be the type of statements which are made about my client having relationships with Temba when there is no basis at all to say such things.

And for the 7 days that I have been here, the ...[indistinct] which have been made about her I have never as yet to see the factual basis upon which those allegations have been made and maybe this is what is confusing the tenia of the evidence that is tendered.

CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, youíre still cross-examining.

MR SEMENYA: No, I do not have any further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Any other? Thank you, youíre wonderful people. No, youíll get your last bite. What about you guys here? Thank you, none of you? - youíre wonderful. Yes?

MR JORDI: I just have one question for Miss Nkadimeng.

Were you ever a police informer or a police operative or did you ever willingly co-operate with the police in any way during the period under discussion?

MS NKADIMENG: I would say I am a well-known activist in the Northern Province and I think credibility is being built by a person. If people elect you into a certain position within the ANC, then you tell yourself that you are a trusted and that has been happening until today.

And to inform you, today I am at the head of the Agenda in SATU Pogwani branch in Nebo where Iím working and up to now - since I completed in 1990, I have been in the executive of SATU in the Nebo branch. I didnít buy any trust within the teachers but they just elected me into office.

And from long ago when I was in college in course one until today. So I donít think why I should today be turned into a police informer. And I think when my comrades in prison told me about Temba and he even instructed me to expose this person to comrades before he can do any dangerous things ...[intervention]

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, can the witness be warned not to describe Temba in terms which she does not have a factual basis to support ...[indistinct]

CHAIRPERSON: I think that you have answered the question your legal representative has put to you. Thank you very, very much. Sorry, did you?

MR VALLY: No, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you are wonderful.

We thank you, thank you very much.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: The next witness is Lerothodi Ikaneng.

Mr Lerothodi, would you indicate which language youíre going to use?

MR IKANENG: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Zulu? Ikaneng - what kind of a Zulu is that? Are you speaking in Zulu?

MR IKANENG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming today, we do trust and hope that you will assist us to reach the truth. Miss Sooka will help you take an oath.

MS SOOKA: Are you able to hear me clearly?

MR IKANENG: Yes.

MS SOOKA: Could you state your full names for the record please?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, order please.

MS SOOKA: Could you state your full names for the record please?

LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG: (sworn states)

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairman, Iím Sanjay Makanjee and Iím acting on behalf of the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, itís your turn for 15 minutes.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Ikaneng, were you a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR IKANENG: Yes.

MR MAKANJEE: When did you join the club?

MR IKANENG: We formed the club in 1987, not that I joined it.

MR MAKANJEE: Am I correct in understanding you that the club was only formed in 1987?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is so.

MR MAKANJEE: The reason I ask you this is just to clarify a point, Absolon Madonsela made a statement saying that sometime in April 1987 the club was disbanded, can you comment on that?

MR IKANENG: No, it was not disbanded, it was never disbanded.

MR MAKANJEE: You were detained after an incident in Zola, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Yes, thatís correct.

MR MAKANJEE: How long were you detained for?

MR IKANENG: For 10 months.

MR MAKANJEE: Which year was this in?

MR IKANENG: In 1987.

MR MAKANJEE: Was this after you joined the football club?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is true.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you tell us, the events that led to your being detained after that even in Zola?

MR IKANENG: Yes, I may explain. In January 1987, we were at Mrs Mandelaís home even before we were arrested. We were coming from a funeral of one of the comrades by the name of Pojo and as we were at the funeral - we were comrades from various places, from Zolamdeni and so forth and the comrades from Zola told us that they will be having a night vigil and they were inviting us to their night vigil.

That same night at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís home - we were already sleeping in the back room and there was this shack that was referred to as Lusaka, in that evening one comrade came to wake us and I was woken up and I thought that could be the time to go to the night vigil in Zola.

I woke up and as I woke up some were left behind and I went on ahead to the car and we drove off to Zola.

MR MAKANJEE: This incident that youíre referring to, is this the incident where Oupa Saheri and Charles Zwane were implicated?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is true.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you briefly describe that incident that took place?

MR IKANENG: When we were in the cars driving to Zola I asked one of these comrades that were with in the car: "What are we actually going to do in Zola"? because according to me we should all have left to the night vigil and they told me that weíre going to fetch a firearm.

We were given hand grenades one, one, each and we drove to Zola to a certain street and parked there. "C" got out of the car and went into another houseís premises and we were left in the car and I was in the Audi car. I saw him talking to somebody in those premises and as they were talking I just heard a gunshot, I saw that person running away and going around to the back of the house.

We got out the car and we rushed to the scene and when we got inside there, there were two ladies standing outside and "C" spoke to those ladies. We got out and walked down the street to a certain house, when we got there we knocked at the door and we surrounded the house. We knocked at the front and at the back and on the windows as well.

When they tried to peep through the windows we showed them the hand grenades, they were so terrified. They opened the door and we got one boy who was inside that house and we went back to the first house that we were at. When we got there we found those two ladies still standing there and this boy told the other lady that she should give us the gun.

That lady was so scared and she denied any knowledge of the gun but saw one boy opening the coal box outside and Bobo opened the coal box outside and got the firearm in there and he took the magazine. I donít know what he was inspecting on the magazine of the gun and took it back and he ran inside the house. When he got inside the house we followed him with Charles Zwane.

He went through the bedroom and closed the door, we pushed the door and it could not open. He pulled out the gun and shot the door and the door burst open and we found him lying on the bed and the other one who was shot was just laying right next to the door. Bobo pulled him and lifted up the bed and Bobo pulled him and put right next to the other one who was laying by the door. "C" appeared immediately and shot again and we left immediately.

MR MAKANJEE: For the purpose of the record, who is Bobo?

MR IKANENG: That is Charles Zwane.

MR MAKANJEE: And after this incident you were detained in connection with this incident, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: When you were released, what did you do?

MR IKANENG: When I got back from detention in Protea I went back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís home.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you tell us about the Dalywonga High School incident?

MR IKANENG: Boys of Dalywonga High School are the ones responsible for the burning of Mrs Mandelaís home.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you tell me the events that led up to the burning of Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house?

MR IKANENG: The cause for that was that during the detention in Protea - there were two clubs, there was one girls club and the boys club and the girls club was called Mandela Sisters. There was another girl who was playing for Mandela Sisters because when I got back from detention there was Mandela Sisters and this other girl belonged to that club.

One time she was in town in a disco image club and that same evening she could not get transport coming back home and was given a ride from certain boys in Duwe and she was raped.

MR MAKANJEE: The boys in Duwe, were they members of the Mandela Football Club?

MR IKANENG: No, they were not football club members, they were just students at Dalywonga.

MR MAKANJEE: Carry on.

MR IKANENG: When the house was set alight I was at work at Mrs Mandelaís restaurant in Auckland Park. After she was raped she went to Mrs Mandelaís home to report the matter as to where she was coming from, from the disco and she was subsequently raped only to find that those boys would be collected for this matter.

In the afternoon after work when I got back home I found them at home, they were already assaulted when I got them - when I found them in Lusaka. The other two I knew from Lower Primary School, I asked them as to what happened, what was happening and what they wanted there, they told me that this girl is alleging that we raped her.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Ikaneng, slow down. Who collected these boys who were belonging to Dalywonga High School?

MR IKANENG: I wouldnít be in a position to answer that, I would just assume that the football club members were the ones who collected them because I found them at home after work.

MR MAKANJEE: When you say: "home", whose home are you referring to?

MR IKANENG: Iím referring to Winnie Mandelaís home in Orlando West.

MR MAKANJEE: Would you describe the condition that you found these boys in?

MR IKANENG: Yes. They were sjamboked and one could tell that they electrocuted in some way and it was usual that they were tortured and electrocuted as well.

MR MAKANJEE: Where were they being kept in the house itself?

MR IKANENG: They were in a shack, the one we refer to as Lusaka.

MR MAKANJEE: Now did anybody who lived in the house at that stage enter this shack at any stage during these assaults?

MR IKANENG: When they were being assaulted, Zinzi Mandela is the one who was instigating and saying they are rapist and they must be tortured.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay, let me just get one thing clear, you said just now that you were not present when they were assaulted, are you now saying that there was more than one assault on these boys?

MR IKANENG: When I got there they were already assaulted and again at night we assaulted them.

MR MAKANJEE: So, at night when the assault took place, who was carrying out these assaults?

MR IKANENG: It was us the football club members and Zinzi herself participated.

MR MAKANJEE: So, if Iím correct youíre saying that Zinzi came into the shack while the assault was carrying on, did not take any steps to stop it and left the shack on numerous occasions, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Zinzi was instigating the whole thing and was re-enforcing the assault.

MR MAKANJEE: Was this the assault that led to the burning of Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís house?

MR IKANENG: Yes, thatís true.

MR MAKANJEE: Letís just go further on, on to another event. There was a stage where you went to Bheki Mashlanguís shebeen, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Yes, Bheki Mashlangu.

MR MAKANJEE: Was that around the same time that Toli Dlamini was killed?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that was the day.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you tell us the incidents that led to Toliís death?

MR IKANENG: When Toli died or the day Toli died, we were planning to go to a night vigil in Pimville. In the afternoon myself and Toli - told him that we should go and prepare ourselves and get ready for the night vigil. Indeed we went to our various homes and prepared ourselves and wore our T-shirts, we went to Toliís home as he was my neighbour and I picked him up and we left.

We went through a passage that was going down the street, it was the third street from our homes and when we got to the tavern Mashlanguís tavern we saw many people gathered outside by the gate. I asked Toli if he will go and see what was happening, we went there and we realised that those were the boys from around and they were drunk. We saw Sizwe approaching with Butele and Butele had a coat on ...[intervention]

MR MAKANJEE: Sorry, Sizwe that you refer to, who is Sizwe?

MR IKANENG: Iím referring to Sizwe Sithole, the one who was Zinziís boyfriend.

MR MAKANJEE: Continue.

MR IKANENG: He appeared as if he had something in his hand and he asked something of me, he was asking about Dingos and Dingos is one other friend that we were detained with regard to Madondoís case, I told him that Dingos was inside.

They said: "Dingos, somebody wanted to see you" and I just saw Dingos approaching at that stage and Sizwe asked him where the gun was, Dingos asked which gun was being referred to and he said: "My brother or my friendís gun". They discussed about that gun, that it was a toy gun and it was not a real gun. As they were discussing, Sizwe pulled out the gun and shot right on top and as he shot that side one guy Ben Xholongo came out of the shebeen and he was remarkably drunk and he did not even want to listen to what was being said to him.

All the people who were drinking came out the house and Sizwe called me after he shot in the air, he was pointing the gun at me as he called me. I went to him and he pushed me with the gun and we went back to the passage that we used coming to the house. When we got to the passage I was thinking that the next culprit will be me, I will be the next one who will be shot.

He asked me where Toli was and I told him Toli was around as we were standing at the gate, I donít know where he disappeared to and he said: "Iím here for Toli" and I told him that he was around but I didnít know where he disappeared to. He went down the passage and I followed him and we saw those boys from the night vigil just gathering there.

We went to ask Butele - we went to the other street from the passage and we heard a gunshot. We found out that Sizwe Sithole was shooting.

MR MAKANJEE: Who was Sizwe Sithole shooting?

MR IKANENG: Toli was being shot by Sizwe Sithole.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay. Did you make a statement to the police in regard to that event?

MR IKANENG: You mean revenge?

MR MAKANJEE: No, Iím asking whether you gave evidence or did you give a statement to the police with regard to the event where Toli Dlamini was shot?

MR IKANENG: Yes, I did.

MR MAKANJEE: And did you attend the trial as well and give evidence in that trial?

MR IKANENG: No, I did not.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you tell us what occurred after this?

MR IKANENG: On that day Toli tried to escape and Sizwe Sithole - and they grabbed him and he fell and Sizwe pulled out the magazine and put another one on the gun and we were approaching. He pointed the gun at us now, we ran away.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Ikaneng, I want to know, after Toli was shot by Mr Sithole, what happened then?

MR IKANENG: The following day we met with these comrades that we were supposed to go to the night vigil with, I asked them if it was acceptable for the way Toli was murdered and maybe we should call Mrs Mandela as to why Toli was killed in the manner which he was killed in.

We agreed to that and we went to call box at a certain shopping complex - there were public phones there, and I took out some coins and I asked for the telephone number of Mrs Mandelaís house in Diepkloof. I donít remember if sheís the one who answered the phone or - I spoke to her and I told her that I am Lerothodi and we want to know why Sizwe killed Toli this way.

Mrs Mandela said to me: "Weíll have to discuss this matter" and sheíll send transport to fetch us and we agreed with that. We waited for transport there at the shopping complex. We were about 7 or 8 ...[intervention]

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Ikaneng, did you get to Mrs Mandelaís house at any stage after that telephone call?

MR IKANENG: Yes, we did.

MR MAKANJEE: What happened?

MR IKANENG: We went to Diepkloof, when we got there we were taken inside the house and we occupied the dining room and Mrs Mandela came with Zinzi and some other boys who were football members and Richardson was there as well. We sat down and Mrs Mandela asked what our story was, why are we there and I told her that we were there to find out why Toli was killed like that.

She responded and said: "I donít know what Toli did" and I wanted to find out what it is that Toli did, she said that Toli went to Bizaís case and testified and Biza has been convicted now. I asked her another question - that Toli died in my presence and now I have to explain and give an explanation as to how he died and so on and Mrs Mandela promised me a place of accommodation where I would be accommodated and I should go to stay there and hide from the police so that itís not clear how Toli died.

I went to fetch my clothes and I went back to the house so she could take me to the place she told me about, thatís what she said and she gave me taxi money to go home and get the clothes In the taxi I told the boys with whom I was that Iím no longer going back to the house, as Iím going Iím not coming back. When we got to Toliís house they told me that the police were there already and I need to give a testimony with regard to Toliís death.

The following day the police came again and found me at Toliís house, they took me with to Protea Police Station, thatís where I submitted my statement and then they brought me back home.

MR MAKANJEE: When you say home, are you referring to your own house?

MR IKANENG: Repeat?

MR MAKANJEE: When you say home, are you referring to your own house?

MR IKANENG: Yes, they took me back home where I stay.

MR MAKANJEE: Subsequent to that a gentleman named Shoes collected you and took you back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: We met Shoes at the swimming pool, we saw Shoes there at the swimming pool, I was with Gift Ntombeni and he said: "Mum wants to see you at the office". We all went to the offices and when we got to the offices - when I looked at them, they looked very angry and we sat down - there were sofas there.

MR MAKANJEE: Who was present at the office?

MR IKANENG: It was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela as well as Zinzi.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] find out ...[intervention]

MR MAKANJEE: Two minutes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to find out whether I should use the guillotine. Yes, all right.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Ikaneng, youíll have to be brief with your answers if you donít mind, okay?

MR IKANENG: Okay.

MR MAKANJEE: So you were at Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís office, what happened?

MR IKANENG: We sat down, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said: "Is this what we have come for in the Mandela family"

MR MAKANJEE: What did you think she was talking about?

MR IKANENG: I knew - it was pretty obvious to me as to what she was talking about, she said sheíll find a hiding place for me so that I do not submit a statement to the police so I knew what she was talking about. She stood up and she grabbed me by my clothes and started assaulting me with an open hand, she started assaulting me with firsts, she directed she was to take me to Diepkloof.

Gift was leading the way, he had his own escort and I was escorted by Shoes. When we got outside they opened the door of the car, Gift got in and I escaped.

MR MAKANJEE: You escaped and where did you go to?

MR IKANENG: I went home and I told them what was happening and the fact that I was chased and as I was still there ...[intervention]

MR MAKANJEE: Where did you go when you escaped?

MR IKANENG: I went to Sharpeville.

MR MAKANJEE: That was around October 1988, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Yes.

MR MAKANJEE: On the 3rd of January you returned to Soweto, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Yes.

MR MAKANJEE: You met Jerry Richardson, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: yes.

MR MAKANJEE: Jerry Richardson and members of the United Football Club proceeded to assault you, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: How did they assault you?

MR IKANENG: I met them in Imzimshlope, Iíd gone to see my girlfriend and when we were going back myself and Ntodo - it was already dark, I just saw a person grabbing me from the back and telling me that he wanted to see me. We went into another house and they sat me down. Jerry went out to talk to a certain man and came back, grabbed me and said we should go so all of us went out.

I was asking myself what was happening. I got a chance to escape once more, they chased me and they caught up with me and at that time I didnít have a chance to escape one more because I was grabbed on both sides. I was taken into an open veld, they kicked me and I fell onto the ground and I thought I was going to be shot but at a later stage I discovered that they did not have a gun.

Amongst these men there was another one who was trying to dismantle the garden shears and it came into two pieces and ...[indistinct] pointed at one guy to come and stab me but this guy refused and Jerry took the garden shears himself and stabbed me on the chest.

MR MAKANJEE: Did he stab you anywhere else?

MR IKANENG: No, on my neck or throat.

MR MAKANJEE: Sorry, is that "No, on your neck"? So are you saying he didnít stab you?

MR IKANENG: It was only on the neck.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you show us where he stabbed you.

MR IKANENG: Where Iím pointing.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay. Did you think they thought they had left you for dead at that stage?

MR IKANENG: Yes, because they lifted me up and dropped me into some reeds and a swamp there and I could hear their footsteps fading away as they were walking away from the scene, thatís when I decided to drag myself and go and get some help.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MAKANJEE: In a letter dated the 21st of April 1995 from the National Intelligence Agency to the Commanding Officer of the SAPS, it was stated that you were approached by some members of the Mandela United Football Club who asked you to join the SANDF or who in fact ordered you to join the SANDF to prevent you from talking about the death of Toli Dlamini, is this true?

MR IKANENG: No, thatís not true.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think perhaps we should take a tea break, letís get back at half past 4, thank you very much.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makanjee, you say there was one or two things that you - yes, all right.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chair.

Mr Ikaneng, after your assault where your throat was cut, did you go into hiding?

MR IKANENG: Yes.

MR MAKANJEE: Then in 1990 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please - people please, thank you very much.

MR MAKANJEE: In 1990 you were assaulted again, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Yes, itís true I was shot.

MR MAKANJEE: Who shot you Mr Ikaneng?

MR IKANENG: Mateo a member of the Mandela Football Club.

MR MAKANJEE: Why did they want to kill you, do you know?

MR IKANENG: I think itís linked to the first attempt as well as the second one where I managed to escape, probably they still wanted to kill me for the very same reasons.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, nothing further Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Piers?

MR PIGOU: Thank you Chair.

Mr Ikaneng, I just want to go back to the context of the formation of the football club and ask you whether you agree or disagree with what I put forward to you. Do you recall the death of a Masabata Luate, the sister of Wilson Sebuwane who was also known as Magojo? Was the death of this woman - did this result in tension and fighting within SAYCO, the Soweto Youth Congress Movement of which I believe you were a member at the time?

MR IKANENG: Yes, I do remember.

MR PIGOU: And was it as a result of this fight that the football club came together, that there was a decision to bring people together and find some activities for these people to undertake and that a decision was taken at a meeting that you would play football?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is true.

MR PIGOU: Were you present at that meeting Mr Ikaneng?

MR IKANENG: Which meeting are you referring to?

MR PIGOU: Where the decision was taken to form a football club.

MR IKANENG: Yes, I was present.

MR PIGOU: So the football club members were people from two opposing sides so to speak, would that be correct?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is correct.

MR PIGOU: And was this tension between the two sides apparent throughout the course of the next few months - I know you were in detention but after you came out of detention late Ď87 beginning of Ď88, throughout that period did that tension continue - throughout this period, between people on both sides of this original conflict?

MR IKANENG: No, it didnít.

MR PIGOU: Okay, thank you. Weíre just going to go to the Daliwonga incident and Iíd just like to draw your attention to Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís response when we asked her about this in the in-camera hearing. You gave us a version about the Mandela Sisters and one of these members having been raped and then subsequently members of the football team - including yourself, assaulting these people. Now, the response Mrs Mandela has given to us on page 134 of the second in-camera hearing was that:

"There was no such incident that occurred and there was no such report brought to my attention and there was no such a thing as Mandela Sisters"

Could you respond to that?

MR IKANENG: She knows everything, sheís very clear about all that happened and I donít know why sheís denying all that.

MR PIGOU: Did you give an interview to John Carling in 1990 - thatís John Carling from BBC, in which you also describe these incidents?

MR IKANENG: Yes, I did.

MR PIGOU: And during the same interview thereís a quotation attributed to Mr Katiza Cebekhulu, now did you know Mr Cebekhulu at all?

MR IKANENG: No.

MR PIGOU: Have you ever met him?

MR IKANENG: Yes, I met him in the residential area when I was still working at Winnieís tavern.

MR PIGOU: And what year was this that you met Mr Cebekhulu?

MR IKANENG: It was in 1990.

MR PIGOU: Thank you. Could you just confirm to us, youíve mentioned the name of Biza in one of the incidents which you referred to, is Biza Mr Absolom Madonsela?

MR IKANENG: Yes, I think his name is Absolom but Iím not really sure about the surname.

MR PIGOU: Thank you. And youíve also referred to a person by the name of Shoes, is shoes Mr Ronnie Sekekune?

MR IKANENG: Yes, it is.

MR PIGOU: Thank you. Now, in testimony that you gave to the court in your own trial: State versus Ikaneng into the murder of Maxwell Madondo, you indicate at a certain point that the reason for the attack on Toli Dlamini was because he had given evidence and Biza I think had been convicted on that evidence, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is true.

MR PIGOU: And as a result of him having given evidence against Biza he was branded as an impimpie, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: That Biza is an impimpie, could you please rephrase it?

MR PIGOU: Certainly, I beg your pardon. Was Toli Dlamini labelled as an impimpie for giving evidence against Biza?

MR IKANENG: That is correct.

MR PIGOU: Thank you. Did you give a statement to the South African Police about your witnessing the death of Sizwe Sithole? Sorry, I beg your pardon, did you give a statement to the South African Police in relation to the death of Toli Dlamini?

MR IKANENG: That is correct.

MR PIGOU: And in your interview with John Carling you indicate that having been taken to Mrs Mandelaís office you were confronted with the fact that you had given a statement in connection with Dlaminiís death, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: With regard to Dlamini?

MR PIGOU: Thatís correct, yes. Were you confronted by Mrs Mandela?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is correct. Excuse me, at the time when we arrived at the offices she didnít ask me that, she didnít ask me but she just told me that this is what I have come for in the Mandela family and she started assaulting me.

MR PIGOU: Thank you. After you had been assaulted and your throat had been cut by Mr Jerry Richardson, did you attend a public meeting on the 16th of January in Dobsonville where I believe members of the so-called Mandela Crisis Committee and community leaders - church leaders and so forth, were present and where we believe that - we are told that you related what happened to you, did that in fact happen?

MR IKANENG: Yes, I did.

MR PIGOU: Iíd just like to go quickly to two different aspects - and I know Iím jumping backwards and forwards in terms of time period so youíll forgive me, but in your interview with Mr John Carling you talk about a Disciplinary Committee and you indicate that there was a register in which peopleís complaints were registered, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is true.

MR PIGOU: And that those complaints were shown to Mrs Mandela and that Mrs Mandela chose which people were to be brought to the house or asked to come to the house, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is true.

MR PIGOU: And that there was a Disciplinary Committee which was headed by I believe, Mr Sizwe Sithole and with other members Shoes and Mateo on that Committee, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Thatís true.

MR PIGOU: And that as a result of the decisions taken by that Committee, punishment was administered to guilty people or guilty parties by members of the football club, is that correct.

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is true.

MR PIGOU: And did Mrs Mandela participate in the Disciplinary Committee?

MR IKANENG: I wouldnít lie, Iíve never seen her assaulting anyone if a decision had been taken for one to be assaulted.

MR PIGOU: Did Mr Jerry Richardson participate?

MR IKANENG: At that time Jerry Richardson wasnít there he was on and off, he used to come and go and Iíve never personally witnessed any incident in which Jerry Richardson was involved.

MR PIGOU: Youíve also spoken in this interview about a sort of internal Disciplinary Committee for members of the club and that there was some control put over club members that people were made to disclose where they were going, when they were expected to come back etc., is that correct?

MR IKANENG: That is true.

MR PIGOU: And if you didnít keep to the times or if you didnít actually disclose this information, that you could also be subject to physical assault in terms of discipline, is that correct.

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is true.

MR PIGOU: And were you personally Mr Ikaneng, were you beaten?

MR IKANENG: Yes, I was.

MR PIGOU: And who participated in those assaults?

MR IKANENG: Other members, core members.

MR PIGOU: Can you give us any names?

MR IKANENG: As Iíve already counted some, Shoes, Bosmont, Mateo and itís quite a lot, even Jabu, Mazagaza, quite a number of them.

MR PIGOU: Thank you. In February 1989 in your evidence in trial you said that your brother Pete Ikaneng had come to warn you about a meeting that had taken place in which a decision had been taken to either fetch you or to kill you and Sibusiso ...[indistinct] Chili, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Dodo, not Ikaneng.

MR PIGOU: Was your brother Pete Ikaneng a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR IKANENG: No.

MR PIGOU: Never a member. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson, Chairperson may I for the record state that we do not appear on behalf of Mrs Mandela Shlangwane - Zinzi, weíre just placing that on record that weíre not appearing for her.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, yes.

MR SEMENYA: We learn Sir, that even before the formation of the football team, you would highjack furniture trucks that came into the township, is that right?

MR IKANENG: Yes, these were the things that happened during the period 1984 and Ď85.

MR SEMENYA: And at whose instance were you doing these things?

MR IKANENG: Youíll remember that during those times the struggle was very rife and any furniture vehicle or delivery van that used to get into the location would get burnt down, those were the times during which we did that.

CHAIRPERSON: Youíre not answering the question. Heís asking where you got the instructions from.

MR IKANENG: The decision would be taken at a meeting of SOYCO in Orlando West.

MR SEMENYA: And these activities, did they stop when the football team was formed?

MR IKANENG: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Was there a meeting where SOYCO decided not to stop the targets?

MR IKANENG: No.

MR SEMENYA: Did you witness the Mandela United Football Club play soccer?

MR IKANENG: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Until what period did they continue playing soccer?

MR IKANENG: When I came back from detention in 1987 we continued playing soccer until 1980 I think - sorry 1988.

MR SEMENYA: The attack on you, when was it?

MR IKANENG: In Ď89.

MR SEMENYA: And you say you were attacked by the members of the football team?

MR IKANENG: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Why do you describe them as members of the football team?

MR IKANENG: When I decided to move away from the Mandela Football - from the Mandela yard, they still called themselves the Mandela Football Club.

MR SEMENYA: Is that the reason why you call them the Mandela Football Team?

MR IKANENG: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: According to you, is this team - the Mandela Football team, still in existence?

MR IKANENG: Not now.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to tell me when it stopped to exist?

MR IKANENG: Iíve no idea.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to give us an impression maybe of when in your opinion it stopped to exist?

MR IKANENG: Iíve no idea.

MR SEMENYA: I have a statement that says:

"It was dissolved in April/May of Ď87"

MR IKANENG: Thatís not true.

MR SEMENYA: Did you see them play any soccer beyond April/May?

MR IKANENG: As Iíve already explained, during Ď87 when I was released from detention we played some soccer during 1988 and as time went on we stopped playing because houses got burnt.

MR SEMENYA: Against whom did you play in 1988?

MR IKANENG: Many clubs.

MR SEMENYA: Can you give us examples of the teams which you played against in Ď88?

MR IKANENG: Could you please repeat your question?

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to give us names of teams you played against in 1988?

MR IKANENG: I donít remember but we used to play in Zlameni, Jabulani, Diep Soweto and Riverside - I donít remember the names of the clubs.

MR SEMENYA: Your allegation that Mrs Mandela assaulted you is incorrect, what is your response?

MR IKANENG: Itís true because Iím alleging that she assaulted me.

MR SEMENYA: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. You have to help me, I was told there was a Miss Sita - you are Miss Sita?

MS HASSEN: Yes, Mr Chair, my name is Hasina Hassen and this Mrs Kalpana Sita, we are different individuals from the same firm.

CHAIRPERSON: Iím glad I was misled by the lady on my left. Yes?

MS HASSEN: Mr Chair, I just want to put one little question to Mr Ikaneng.

Mrs Ikaneng, I just want to put one aspect to you to clarify it. I represent Charles Zwane who is also known as Charles Bobo and I just want to put it to you that he was acquitted from the murder Xola Makahula and he had no part really in putting the body together, he in fact did not enter into the room in Zola. Can I confirm this?

MR IKANENG: No, we were with him in Zola.

MS HASSEN: Yes, I do know that you were with him in Zola but that he was acquitted for this murder of Xola Makahula, do you know of this?

MR IKANENG: Whoís Xola Makahula?

MS HASSEN: The incident that you went to Zola for, the one that you just gave the Commission evidence about earlier in your statement.

MR IKANENG: I wouldnít know whether he was found guilty or not, I never attended the court case.

MS HASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I was just thinking that this time round Mr Richard would be missing. Yes?

MR UNTERHALTER: David Unterhalter for the Chili family. May I ask you two questions, firstly did Sizwe Sithole have a brother named Samele?

MR IKANENG: Yes, they are related but I donít know how they are related.

MR UNTERHALTER: Then can I ask you about an incident in February 1989 which has already been referred to, where a man by the name of Todo came to inform you that a decision had been taken about actions to be taken against yourself and Sibusiso Chili, can you tell us what was told to you as far as thatís concerned?

MR IKANENG: Todo came to my place - in fact at a shebeen which was Nshlongaís place, and he told us the decision that Sibusiso and I had to be killed and I was surprised as to how Todo got to know about this and why was Sibusiso one of the targets to be killed. I instructed Todo to go and tell Sibusiso and he left me there at the shebeen.

MR UNTERHALTER: Whose decision was this?

MR IKANENG: He told me that the decision was taken at the offices - that is Winnieís offices.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did he say whether Mrs Mandela knew of the decision or had taken the decision?

MR IKANENG: No, he did not really specify as to who in particular took the decision, Iím not clear as to who instructed them to do that.

MR UNTERHALTER: Do you know whether any attack was then carried out on Sibusiso?

MR IKANENG: If Iím not mistaken, the following day I heard Sponge was fighting with other members and I went to check as to what was happening. When I got there I could see somebody being pelted with stones and he was lying on the ground.

MR UNTERHALTER: And was that Mr Madondo?

MR IKANENG: That is correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard?

MS KLAPP: Thank you Chairperson.

Sir, is it not correct that in 1987 after your release from detention, you were brought before the Disciplinary Committee on the basis that Sizwe Sithole and Ronnie Sekekune felt that your behaviour was irresponsible and led to breaches of security of the soccer team?

MR IKANENG: No, thatís not true.

MR RICHARD: And there were no allegations from them that you took too long to go to the shops and that sometimes you refused to report to Mrs Mandelaís home?
MR IKANENG: Could you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: Iím putting a version that I have before me to you and the version is that in 1987 after you were released, you were taken before this Disciplinary Committee meant to deal with internal problems and the accusations against you were - amongst other things, you stayed away without accounting for your movements, you didnít report and those allegations were made by Sizwe and Ronnie who in fact chaired the Disciplinary Hearing. Do you know anything about it, yes or no?

MR IKANENG: These were things that happened after I was released from detention.

MR RICHARD: Anytime during 1987?

MR IKANENG: No, during 1988 before the house was burnt down.

MR RICHARD: Yes, before the house was burnt down. But you say these things happened but not in Ď87 but in Ď88? The dateís wrong?

MR IKANENG: Yes, during 1988.

MR RICHARD: And these are - Iím rushing, these are evidence that the relationship between you on one hand and the Sizwe Sithole and Ronnie Sekekune site factions were not to good, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: Yes, that is true but particularly with Sizwe Sithole - we were in good terms with Ronnie Sekekune.

MR RICHARD: I might be going too fast and making mistakes but bear with me. The long and the short was that, certainly Sizwe Sithole felt that you did not heed the warnings given to you and he complained further that you were a regular visitor to Mrs Dudu Chiliís home.

MR IKANENG: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And indeed when Mr Richardson says:

"Mrs Chili was seen by Mrs Mandela and by the team, to be an opponent of Mrs Mandela"

That was the feeling amongst the team?

MR IKANENG: I did not know anything about that.

MR RICHARD: Is it not correct that one day you stole a gun from the Mayor of Soweto?

MR IKANENG: No, the Mayor of Soweto was disarmed by certain comrades.

MR RICHARD: And you werenít part of them.

MR IKANENG: No, I wasnít, I only arrived at a later stage.

MR RICHARD: And - again Iím not cross-examining properly, Iím skimming a question a page.

CHAIRPERSON: That is up to you and all I know is that Iíve given you five minutes and how you use it is up to you, what you have left is one minute.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chair, in an ordinary court I would be greatly remiss if I didnít argue further but I shall not.

Did you ever plan to kill anyone in the team?

MR IKANENG: No.

MR RICHARD: You never had a feeling of ill-will towards my client Mr Richardson?
MR IKANENG: No.

MR RICHARD: When Mr Richardson and the others found you - according to the version before me, you were near the Imzimshlope hostel, is that correct?

MR IKANENG: No, not Imzimshlope hostel, in the location - the residential area, not the hostel.

MR RICHARD: But how far from the hostel?

MR IKANENG: Yes, itís quite a distance.

MR RICHARD: And then to conclude, you were taken by force and an attempt was made on your life. How long is the scar on your neck, is it 4, 5cm or 8, 10cm?

MR IKANENG: No, I canít say.

MR RICHARD: Indicate by showing on your hand - this long, that long?

MR IKANENG: I think this long.

MR RICHARD: I would say thatís 4,5,6,7cm. How long is that? Iíd say itís 5cm.

MR IKANENG: I donít know.

MR RICHARD: When they attempted to stab you ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You are not surprised that the one minute is so long?

MR RICHARD: I am surprised, Iím stretching my luck.

When you were attacked, did they use the shear in a cutting motion or a stabbing motion?

MR IKANENG: He pressed it against my throat, I think it was in a stabbing motion. He did not cut but he stabbed and pressed very hard for the shear to penetrate.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Doctor Fazel?

DR RANDERA: Mr Ikaneng, I want you to help me but in order for you to help me I want to actually create the scene. In all these volumes of paper that weíve read and what weíve been listening to I seem to be getting two impressions, okay?

On the one side thereís a situation where thereís a clash between SOYCO and other young people and out of this Mrs Madikizela-Mandela intervenes, tries to get people together, opens her house and her office up because sheís a social worker and people are allowed to go and stay in the back of her house and thereís a football club that plays football, okay?

On the other side we hear of many stories - the Dalybongwe one being one of those, where the football club gets involved - besides playing football, in all sorts of other activities, abducting people, shooting people, raping young women, Now this is what I want you to help me with, was there from your experience - right up to the time that you were living there, was there ever an occasion or occasions where you saw or heard Mrs Madikizela-Mandela saying to these young people - yourself included, "Go and do these things"?

MR IKANENG: At no stage did I hear that.

DR RANDERA: Was there ever any occasion where you remember Mrs Madikizela-Mandela - because from what we understand people were also going to her house and trying to explain what was happening, now was there ever any occasion that you can remember, where Mrs Madikizela-Mandela came to the young people - whether you call them a club or not Iím concerned, and she told you people: "What are you doing"? and criticised you and warned you not to do these things?

MR IKANENG: I remember one instance where a certain young man by the name of ...[indistinct] had robbed a certain person of money and people came to complain and he was beaten up and sent to the police station at a later stage.

DR RANDERA: My last question, youíre an activist in the township from Ď84 you tell us?

MR IKANENG: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: You get involved in the club, you go the house and it seems to me that you leave the house after the Dalybongwe incident which is July of 1988 but the first time you seem to report it - besides the police, the first time you report this incident is on the 16th of January where you suddenly turn up at the church.

Now, in that intervening period from July till January, did you ever go to any members of the Crisis Committee, did you ever go to the South African Council of Churches, did you ever go to the Archbishop whose house was not very far from where you were to say these things are happening, can something be done? Did you?

MR IKANENG: No.

DR RANDERA: Why not?

MR IKANENG: It never occurred to me to do that.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makanjee?

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Ikaneng, just to clarify a few points. These highjackings that you took part in, would you say they were similar to highjackings that we experience today or was it part of a tactic of the liberation struggle?

MR IKANENG: Yes, it was more or less related to the struggle for liberation, it was not just a criminal act like it is happening today.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, just one more question. Weíve heard that the soccer club stopped playing soccer but can you tell me, did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela ever say to you or to the other members: "Do not associate yourself with the soccer club" or with the name of the soccer club?

MR IKANENG: No.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished? Piers? No? Thank you very much.

Lerothodi Ikaneng, thank you very much, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

 

 

 

 

CHAIRPERSON: We now call Dudu, Sibusiso and Barbara Chili.

Actually you have not done so badly, youíve improved remarkably.

CHAIRPERSON: Itís practice Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, thank you for coming today. We would like to know which language youíll be using.

CHILE FAMILY: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to thank you once more for coming today to share your story with us.

Hanif, what do you want to do?

MR VALLY: Archbishop, I just want to put something on record, we were approached in the course of the hearings late last week by Mr Robert McBride who produced a witness and we have taken a statement from this witness, itís a Mr Vuzi Madeda - I have given a copy of the statement to Mrs Madikizela-Mandelaís legal team.

Why we think itís important to put in record is that we have at all stages asked the team if there are any specific witnesses they want called. Having perused the statement we donít believe it would take the matter much further but on record we need to get a response from my learned friend and determination from him whether he wants us to call this witness or not. If he indicates that he does want us to call this witness, then we can state further when we can fit this witness in.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you want to place it on record youíre not meaning itís going to be read?

MR VALLY: Weíre not talking about reading the statement into the record, weíre talking about actually calling the witness. If Mr Ishmail Semenya wants this witness called he should let us know especially since Mr McBride indicated that this witness was possibly in favour of his client.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had an opportunity of perusing the particular statement Mr Semenya and if so, are you able to respond to Mr Vallyís query whether you might want to have the witness called?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, Iím only able to say: "Yes, I have fleetingly read the statement" and I do realise there are aspects positive to my clientís interest which are alleged in the statement. I havenít had occasion to consult with this particular witness but I would support rather that - maybe like statements of Mr Bridgdent, that it can just be read into the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, do you want to do that immediately now?

MR VALLY: If the Commission so desires, Iíll do so right now.

CHAIRPERSON: But weíve already called witnesses here and I think ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: I can do it after the witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you? I think itís a kind of courtesy I would say but thank you very much.

Please stand up. (No English translation)

CHILE FAMILY: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS SOOKA: Will you each state your full names for the record please.

MR S CHILI: Iím Sibusiso Chili.

MR D CHILI: Dud Chili.

MRS B CHILI: Barbara Chili.

MR S CHILI: (sworn states)

MS D CHILI: (sworn states)

MRS B CHILI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Unterhalter?

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you Chairperson. Iím going to ask questions of all of the witnesses but if I might start with Dudu Chili first please.

Are you going to give evidence in English of Zulu?

MS D CHILI: Iím okay about languages.

MR UNTERHALTER: Well, if you could give your evidence in English ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Letís just try and see, I think the moving is going to be a problem. Thank you very much. Could you just perhaps wait until weíve sorted it out?

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Youíre really wonderful. I havenít said thank you but I am going to do that later but I mean youíre actually quite wonderful and without your assistance - heís blushing. Mr Unterhalter?

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you Chairperson.

Can I ask you - to begin with, to go back to the years 1984 and 1986 and could you just briefly tell us what your activities were in community organisations at that time?

MS D CHILI: I was involved in the community because around my area people used to come to me to report problems if they have problems which in return I would go to the ...[inaudible] of the women - that is the federation of the women, if I canít solve it myself but I was somehow involved.

Even when the children were injured during those days, I would be called upon to rush them to the hospital where maybe their identity would be hidden so that the police donít follow them to the hospitals.

MR UNTERHALTER: And were these womenís groups affiliated or associated to the UDF?

MS D CHILI: Yes, it was.

MR UNTERHALTER: Could you tell us of your first meeting and dealings with Mrs Mandela?

MS CHILI: I met with Mrs Mandela face-to-face. It was when we were in a meeting of the Soweto Womens Group and Nana Kutimela had brought some letters for her from overseas and in the meeting it was asked who is supposed to take those letters to her. As an employee then they decided that I take those letters to her. I took those letters to her and that was the first time we met directly except that we used to meet in the gatherings, different gatherings. 

MR UNTERHALTER: And was there any enmity between you and Mrs Mandela, any bad feelings at that point in 1986?

MS CHILI: Not that I know of.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now I want to ask you about events after the formation of the Mandela Football Club. Were there any efforts being made to bring your son, Sibusiso into that Club, could you tell us what happened?

MS CHILI: After the formation of the Football Club, I don't know after some few weeks Sibusiso came to me and said Mama, Bomonde, which belonged to the Football Club then, they are after him, they want to kill him. Then I said to myself it cannot be possible you know. I remember requesting Nondumiso Diniswayo(?) saying Nondumiso please accompany me, let's go to Winnie Mandela to find out why are the Football Club members wanting to kill Sibusiso. We went with Nondumiso. When we arrived at Mrs Mandela we sent a message because it was not easy to go directly into the house at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, she came out of the house and met us, we were outside, outside the yard. I asked her what is it that is happening, what had Sibusiso done that the Football Club wants to kill him. She said Dudu if he's not in the Football Club obviously the other boys will think that he's a sell-out. And to me that scared me really because those times when somebody is labelled as a sell-out it means he must die, so I just concluded that then they have concluded that he's a sell-out because he's not in the Football Club, maybe that's why they wanted to kill him.

MR UNTERHALTER: And what did you suggest to Sibusiso as far as joining this Club was concerned?

MS CHILI: I warned him not to join the Football Club with the other sons of mine.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. As far as you were aware what were the activities of this Club at the time, what was the reputation of the Club that led you to advise your son not to join it?

MS CHILI: At the beginning I did not know of any activities, the only thing is that I did not understand the Football Club issue especially relating to Mrs Winnie Mandela you know. It was just a question mark to me, I wasn't clear why a Football Club suddenly, and then I said they mustn't join the Football Club, it was when Nombulelo came to my place saying to me, Dudu, since my son has joined the Football Club he is no more coming at home. I said to her, look Nombulelo, I have nothing to do with the Football Club, the best thing is for you to go to Mrs Winnie Mandela's place and find out about your son. She went and came back to me and said Dudu can you - do you know what Mrs Winnie Mandela said to me? I said no, I don't know, she said because we are not feeding our children they are staying in her house because she is feeding them. That was the response that Winnie Madikizela-Mandela gave to Nombulelo.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Nombulelo?

MS CHILI: Nombulelo is Nthando's mother, the one who came to complain that her son since he joined the Football Club,

he is no more coming home.

MR UNTERHALTER: And what was your response, what was your - were you apprehensive about this Club?

MS CHILI: Then I realised that no, no, no, no, there was something wrong with the Football Club. Then that's the time when I said please don't join the Football Club because you can only join the Football Club if you are studying at home, but if you are not studying please don't join the Football Club.

MR UNTERHALTER: You don't starve your sons at home do you?

MS CHILI: I didn't.

MR UNTERHALTER: May I ask you then was there a report made to you right at the end of 1988 of the abduction of certain young people from a Methodist manse in Soweto?

MS CHILI: Yes it was the morning after the abduction.

MR UNTERHALTER: When was that, could you try and be precise?

MS CHILI: It was some time in December, I can't remember the date, but it was towards the end of December.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

MS CHILI: It was Dada and Newu from the manse who came to my place to tell me that there are four youths who have been taken by the Football Club to Winnie Mandela's house.

MR UNTERHALTER: And to whom did you report this matter?

MS CHILI: I immediately phoned Reverend Mbangula who is the district, I don't know how we termed them, but he was the district somebody of the Methodist Church and I phoned the Civic people, I phoned Mrs Sisulu. The Civic people were also members of the UDF, so we were trying to inform the structures, the then structures that there is something of this sort that has happened.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. At the end of January 1989 can you tell us of a meeting that was held at which reports were made of the activities of the Football Club, were you at that meeting?

MS CHILI: The Mass Democratic, yes I was in that meeting.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

MS CHILI: Where these four youths were handed over after they were released at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.

MR UNTERHALTER: I see. Now I want to then take you to February 1989 and a visit to your house by a man by the name of Todo, can you tell us what happened on that day?

MS CHILI: It was in evening, we were just relaxed you know and then this young man came, you could see that he was scared, he had this fear, he just - he was so much in a hurry that I have come to warn you that the decision has been taken at Winnie Mandela's, I don't know whether at his home or in the office, that Sibusiso and Lerothodi has been problematic, they have to be killed.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now who did, who was it said had made this decision?

MS CHILI: I was told that Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and Zinzi Mhlongo were co-deciders of the sentence of death to my son.

MR UNTERHALTER: And was it indicated why exactly they wanted to do these things to your son?

MS CHILI: I didn't know why but before Todo came to tell us there were two youths which Ikaneng Lerothodi pointed out to Sibusiso at Beki's place that these are the two young men who helped Richardson when they cut my throat. At that point Sibusiso seeing Lerothodi getting cross he said no let's not fight them, let's rather take them to Mama so that Mama can speak to them. They came with these two boys to my place. It was late in the evening, it was after eight and it was late, I told them look there is nothing that I can do now because whatever I did I had to inform the leadership then. I did talk to them, why are you participating in horrible things like this you know and they were so humble you know, they explained that it is not intentionally but because if they don't participate in these things they are seen as being against the Football Club members who are doing these things.

Then I went, we went to bed together with them, they slept at my place, willingly, and in the morning I waited a response from the leadership that I contacted but Mr Samdo(?) he was a little bit busy he was going to come very late the following day, Masesula couldn't have come because he was a bank person, Stewart Ngwenya, one of the Civic members and the UDF members came, he sat down and spoke with these two young men. They promised that they are going to stop all these things that they were doing, harassing people, beating people, doing all those funny things and they were going to go back to school. We discovered later that one of the boys was called to Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house, then that's where we realised that there was going to be a problem.

MR UNTERHALTER: I see. Now you had received a report of this planned attack upon your son and Lerothodi Ikaneng, what did you do, what steps did you take to warn your son?

MS CHILI: I asked them in fact, all of them, I said look this is going to be dangerous, if the house is going to be -if they want to kill Sibusiso, neither of the other boys were safe, you had better hide yourselves and that's exactly what they started doing.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

MS CHILI: The following morning we noticed when we went outside that there are people with long stuff disguised, some with long coats with bags you know standing strategically that in such a way that when they come from the - Lerothodi comes maybe from his place they are in a position to see him and then they are in a position to see Sibusiso whether he comes in or out of the house.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. Now can you tell us what happened on the 13th of February?

MS CHILI: On the 13th of February a young woman came to my place, I think it was Phumzile who came screaming, Mama Spontch, Mama Spontch the Football Club members have caught up with Sibusiso, they are going to kill him. I said Mpompo please get his twin brother, he is at the Uncle Tom's hall with the other youth and then Pompo left. And then later there was this noise outside, you could feel that they were fighting outside and they were actually trying to pull, because I understand the other two men ran away and then they were left with one.

MR UNTERHALTER: Is that Madondo?

MS CHILI: Yes. They were trying to pull him, trying to bring him to my place but he was fighting and then later, I don't know what happened, but later Madondo was lying on the floor.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes, and he was killed?

MS CHILI: Yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. Now what happened after the killing of Maxwell Madondo?

MS CHILI: After the killing of Maxwell Madondo I went to London, I had attended an anti-apartheid movement representing the Civics, it was a conference.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. And what happened on your return?

MS CHILI: On my return I was informed by one well-known person to me, that is Mzwaki Mbuli that Dudu be careful, there was this car, he gave me the registration numbers, that this car was standing in front of your house, you could see these people were sort of talking about your house and he became suspicious. He gave me those registration numbers and said this is the car, it was a Volkswagen, greyish if I am not mistaken, and then he said to me I followed that car, that car went back to Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house in Diepkloof.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now on your return from the United Kingdom were you arrested?

MS CHILI: Yes we, I slept because I came late and then we slept, I was with Barbara at home. In the early hours of the morning the police came, it was about five o'clock or even earlier. Then they said they are taking me for questioning.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

MS CHILI: They assured Barbara, Barbara she will be back it's just for questioning. When I went, when we arrived in Protea it was Van Zyl and Dempsey who came for me. The first question they asked me who did I see of the ANC in London. Then I said I didn't see anybody of the ANC in London, I had attended an anti-apartheid movement conference and which I had represented the Civics, Soweto Civics. They left me in Protea and disappeared.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

MS CHILI: Later I understood that they went to my house to search my house. I don't know what they took from my house, and then when they came back they told me I was implicated in the Madondo killing, I took part in the Madondo killing.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now while you were in custody was there an attack on your house?

MS CHILI: It was the same night when I was picked up by the police because in the morning they came to the cell in Kliptown where I was kept. From Protea I was taken to Kliptown. They said let's go home. I jumped because I was happy to be released from that stinking jail you know. As we were driving innocently I could see the placards along the road, a 13 year old girl died in a bomb, a house bomb, things like that, it never dawned on me that it had happened at my house. I got a shock when we approached the house, the house was in a terrible state, and then I really panicked because I didn't know how many people were in the house, how many were killed. But as we came, we approached, my sister-in-laws were there, they told me that only one child died in the house and it was Finky Msomi.

MR UNTERHALTER: And who is she?

MS CHILI: She was my niece.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. Were the charges withdrawn against you in respect of the Madondo killing?

MS CHILI: Yes it was.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you report to anybody the attack that had been made on your house?

MS CHILI: Yes I, no, I was not at home, I was detained, so the message spread, the people knew, heard about it around, even Goma Sisulu were informed but I don't know by whom.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. Did you have a discussion with Reverend Chikane about this matter?

MS CHILI: Yes, Reverend Chikane was aware about the burning of my house. I remember one day we were in a meeting somewhere in Wits, we the Civic members, he did ask Stewart Ngwenya and Annette Ramagopa, comrades when are you building the comrades house? They said we are busy working on it because there were no funds yet. They were still negotiating the funds.

MR UNTERHALTER: Do you know anything of the trial of Charles Zwane and evidence at that trial concerning the burning of your house?

MS CHILI: Yes Charles Zwane was one of the people because I understood that Sonwabo, who was also an MK person who operated from Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house that he was also the person who attacked my house.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. Did you speak to the Attorney General about this issue?

MS CHILI: The burning of my house?

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

MS CHILI: The Attorney General called me afterwards, after I had testified in Finky's case.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

MS CHILI: Because he wanted to find out was it really that I said a message arrived at my place before and that there was this death sentence imposed on my son and he wanted to find out am I positive about those allegations. I said yes because the person came to my house and reported and immediately after that there were people surrounding my house ready to attack.

MR UNTERHALTER: You say there was a report that there were people going to attack your house, what was that report?

MS CHILI: It was a report that was brought in by Todo who said that we must warn Sibusiso to be careful because a decision has already been taken that they should be killed.

MR UNTERHALTER: Has your house been repaired since ...(intervention)

MS CHILI: It was never repaired, I had to save some funds for myself and try to make it bearable.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. Chairperson those are my questions for Dudu Chili, but perhaps I should go through all the witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: I would have thought so.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sibusiso Chili can I ask you some questions next if I may.

Could you tell us of whether there were efforts made to have you join the Mandela Football Club? Did people come and try and make you join the Mandela Football Club?

MR S CHILI: Yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: Who were those people?

MR S CHILI: It was a Football Club, I did not know the people.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you want to join the Club?

MR S CHILI: No I did not want to join the Club.

MR UNTERHALTER: Why not?

MR S CHILI: I couldn't join a club that I did not know its origin.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you ask your mother about whether you should join the Club?

MR S CHILI: Please repeat your question?

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you ask your mother whether you should join the Club?

MR S CHILI: No I did not ask her.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now I want to take you to February of 1989, did your mother tell you that a man called Todo had come to warn you that members of the Football Club wanted to come and kill you?

MR S CHILI: Yes that is correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: And what did you do in response to that?

MR S CHILI: I went to my mother to tell her that they wanted to kill me and I did not know what to do. My mother said see how to escape this and if they kill you this Mandela Football Club I will bury you.

MR UNTERHALTER: Why did they want to kill you, did you have any idea?

MR S CHILI: You may ask or direct the question to Winnie she can tell you they are all the Football Club members.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now could you tell us what happened on the 13th of February 1989?

MR S CHILI: Yes. I used to work at Mhlongo, I was a driver delivering liquor. My mother called Mhlongo because she had already heard that I was supposed to be killed, or I would be killed. When I got Mhlongo I got that message that my mother called and there is this message. When I got home she told me that and she also further said that if I die she will bury me.

I went back to Mhlongo, I don't remember what I had gone there to do, but when I was approaching my house I was coming from the passage I met three boys, I did not know their names, I did not know even themselves but there is one that I knew, it was Killer. Madonda and Katiza did not know them. I just heard them grabbing and I saw them grabbing me, they said you are Spotch and let's go to Mama. I asked as to which mother are you referring to because my mother is at home. And Katiza - and I took a gun from Madondo and gave it to Boli. There was another boy called Boli. I took the gun from Maxwell Madondo and I gave it to Boli. I don't know where he went to and Katiza and Killer fled. I was left with Madondo there.

We forward up until we got to my house. I wanted him to explain to my mother as to why and the reasons, and furnish my mother with the reasons why I would be killed and he did not want to do that. He jumped the fence. No that's when we started fighting around the fence, right next to the fence and I grabbed him, and some other boys came and we started assaulting and I hurled a big stone to him and he died with that. I did not intend to kill him. I only wanted him to go and talk to my mother and explain my mother as to why they wanted to kill me.

After I pelted the stone at him we removed his body and we put it on the other side of the street and I left the scene. As I was approaching from the passage, coming from the Ikaneng's area I saw a red car, I don't remember if it was a Mercedes but it was red in colour. Winnie was standing there outside with two bodyguards looking at the corpse. From there I turned back, they did not see me. I don't know what eventually happened after that.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now you were arrested for the murder of Maxwell Madondo and you were tried in a court of law, is that correct?

MR S CHILI: Yes. I was arrested for the murder of Maxwell Madondo.

MR UNTERHALTER: You were sentenced to six years imprisonment four of which were suspended, is that correct?

MR S CHILI: That is correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: I just want to read you a (...indistinct) record of that case because right at the end of your case, your counsel, who happens to be Mr Kades who is sitting here today, said the following:

"My Lord I am pleased to inform Your Lordship about the admission...."

that was an admission made by the State,

"....My Lord, that the State will make is that the deceased, Maxwell Madondo was a member of the Mandela Football Club that a decision was made by Mrs Winnie Mandela and the Football Club to kill accused 1 and accused 6..."

thatís Lerothodi Ikaneng and yourself,

"...that the witness My Lord, whose name I shall not now mention, together with Killer and the deceased all were instructed and went to carry out the decision to accused 1 and 6 on that day My Lord".

It was the 13th of February 1989. And is it correct that the Judge took that into account in giving you the sentence that he did of the murder of Mr Madondo, is that correct?

MR S CHILI: That is true.

MR UNTERHALTER: Do you recall at the trial that there was evidence of a hit list that had been found at Mrs Mandela's house by the police, do you recall that?

MR S CHILI: Yes I do.

MR UNTERHALTER: Do you recall whose names were on that list?

MR S CHILI: My name was there as well as my other friends with whom I was arrested. Sipo's name was there also, I think Lerothodi Ikaneng's name was listed as well.

MR UNTERHALTER: And was there an Elliot Sisuli, also known as Khumalo on that list?

MR S CHILI: Sipho Khumalo, yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: Those are my questions for this witness. If I could then ask just a few questions of Barbara please.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please do.

MR UNTERHALTER: I want to take you straight to the attack on the house in which you were living. Could you tell the Commission what happened on that day please?

MS B CHILI: During 1989 February - (the speaker's mike is not on) - during February 1989 we were at Dudu's house, myself, Matanda as well as Finky. As we were still sitting there - (the speaker's mike is not on) - I heard the gate opening, I went outside to find out, I stood at the step and saw the gate was opened and I called on to the dog Sizwe, and Sizwe came from the street into the yard and I closed the gate and went back into the house.

I spoke to Matanda as well as Finky and told them that they should go to sleep because it was quite late and they had to go to school the following morning. They protested and said they were watching the TV. After a few moments I could hear the gate opening once more and I went out. I called onto the dog Sizwe and the gate was open at the time and I could detect some noise from the dustbin as if there is somebody who had got into the dustbin. I went towards the postbox and I thought the dog had got into the dustbin to seek some food. Then I walked quite a distance and when I turned around I saw a tall man whose face wasn't visible and I saw another one with a gun and he fired. I ran into the house and closed the door after me. We ran into Dudu's bedroom and Finky, the one who passed away, ran into the wardrobe and I stood next to the window together with Matanda and I tried to phone Abigail. I told her that I had been shot at and Abigail said I must just stay put she is still trying to struggle with Mbuso. I phoned my cousin who stays in Orlando East, Harold Chili and told him to phone the Orlando Police because there were people shooting at us. I also phoned my boyfriend from Meadowlands Zone 7 and said Mkhonzo please phone the police to come and assist us because we were being attacked. And at that moment the phone was cut off I believe from outside and I saw a round object that hit me on the thighs and at that time I caught fire and I was on fire when I saw - after having thrown the petrol bomb they threw a 25 litre of petrol and it burst. At that moment I saw Finky coming from the corner and fell right before my feet. I tried to pull hr out into the passage to rescue her and at the time I was in flames. I left Finky all by herself. I went into the kitchen, I went to the sink, I tried to put the flames out using the water from the sink. When I went back I could see the fire, the flames burning the carpet in the dining room and I asked Matanda as to whether she was injured. She just screamed and said we should run outside and I said we can't go outside at this juncture. It was dark now in the house. I pulled Barbara out, we were already suffocating at that stage because there was a very strong smell of petrol. I hit the window thinking that the window would break only to find that it doesn't break and I went back inside. Now the house was very dark engulfed in flames as well as smoke. After quite some time I said Matanda I had been burnt. We were scared to go out because we didn't know where the attackers were and she told me that she heard Matanda's mother swearing, asking her as to why they were killing us and why were they attacking Dudu's house. I told Matanda that the people were there and they opened the door at a later stage. I went into the chicken shed. I don't know where Matanda went. I remained in the chicken shed at that time.

I at a later stage jumped the fence into the opposite house where I related the story to Tsili that I had been burnt. We had been attacked, my thighs were burnt. Tsili brought a bottle of fish oil, he took off my dress and poured fish oil over my wounds. Tsili's mother came over and said Barbara I have come to fetch you, the police are here already, and I was scared to go. I didn't know where the attackers were but I ultimately went out.

We got to my place and there were a lot of people there. Finky had died already and they were trying to remove her body out of the house. I told them that I had been burnt and I was in tremendous pain. Abigail sent her boy Mtatu to fetch the car so that they could take me to the hospital.

MR UNTERHALTER: ....as far as Finky is concerned was she shot?

MS B CHILI: I don't know because I saw her flying from the other side of the wardrobe and fell right next to me. I don't know whether she got shot or what. I was also in a confused state. From there they came with Abigail's car and I told them that I got burned on my thighs and I am in tremendous pain and the ambulance came and they said Barbara get out from this other car into the ambulance, and I left Abigail's car and got into the ambulance and we were ferried to Baragwanath Hospital.

MR UNTERHALTER: Could I just ask you, before the attack were you aware of the house being under observation?

MS B CHILI: I knew because there were boys that had disguised and had scarves on and had (...indistinct) on and had sunglasses during the day and even at night we were so scared to death to even going inside and outside the house.

MR UNTERHALTER: Were you aware of a kombi that was parked outside of the house from which people were looking at your house?

MS B CHILI: I did not see the kombi, I was in a state of confusion at the time.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you hear of a kombi from your aunt that had been outside the house?

MS B CHILI: Which aunt are you referring to?

MR UNTERHALTER: The mother of Finkie Msomi.

MS B CHILI: I heard but I did not see it.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Piers.

MR PIGOU: Thank you Chair. This is a question for Dudu Chili. We have heard in the in camera hearing with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that she has distanced herself from the activities of the youths that were staying at her house. She has basically put forward the proposition that they respected her privacy and she respected theirs therefore she didn't know what they were up to and therefore would have no responsibility. What is your reaction to that?

MS D CHILI: That Sibusiso was supposed to be killed, according to the informant that brought the decision he said it came from Winnie's office or house where a group of the Football Club were gathered and it was not for the first time I should point out to you, but it was the second time that Sibusiso, the Football Club wanted to kill Sibusiso, so I connected this incident and that incident that it could be possible merely they are after him after all.

MR PIGOU: In your statement and I believe you have been saying it here again today you confronted Mrs Mandela with this issue about the boys wanting to - the Football Club people wanting to recruit or whatever the right word may be, your son or sons, and you go in your statement to say that you made attempts through your own family connections to get to family connections of Mrs Mandela. Did that actually happen and what was the result of your efforts to resolve this issue?

MS D CHILI: It did happen and it sort of lulled until it happened for the second time when Madondo was killed.

MR PIGOU: Did you ever raise these specific problems with regards to your sons with Mrs Albertina Sisulu?

MS D CHILI: I worked closely with Mrs Sisulu so in most cases I reported everything to her.

MR PIGOU: And are you aware whether Mrs Sisulu made any efforts to contact as a leader in the community, to contact and communicate and perhaps resolve the problems with Mrs Mandela?

MS D CHILI: Not that I remember offhand.

MR PIGOU: Staying on Mrs Sisulu for the moment you worked closely with her, did you at any time get requests from Mrs Sisulu to assist her with problems which may have emanated from around the Football Club with youths coming from the Football Club?

MS D CHILI: Yes I will quote one instance, it was a very large group, about eight of them who they told Mrs Sisulu that they have run away from Mrs Mandela's house and they wanted help from her. Mrs Sisulu was banned then, she phoned me, it was very late at night, that please Dudu you know I can't move because of my restrictions, can you come and help me with these children so that they can get hiding places until the UDF decides what to do with them.

MR PIGOU: Following the incident at your house and then subsequently with the unbanning of the ANC did you make any attempts to resolve the differences between your family and Mrs Mandela?

MS D CHILI: No I never did because after the bombing of my house I was displaced and in hiding for a long time and I never got the chance because when the ANC was unbanned I did go to - it was still a (...indistinct) centre, I approached Mr Sisulu and Mr Mlangini and then they said they can't interfere particularly that this incident involves Mr Mandela's wife, rather they will arrange an appointment for me to speak myself with Mr Mandela. Mr Sisulu took me to Jessie Duarte, the then personal assistant of Mr Mandela then. She did make an appointment for me but that appointment failed because that date collided when Mr Mandela came back from the long tour that he took after his release. It collided with the report-back to the constituency and Jessie promised that another appointment was going to be set for me for which I am still waiting.

MR PIGOU: We know that Mr Charles Zwane was convicted in connection with the attack on your house and that Mr Charles Zwane was associated with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's home and had also been convicted previously in the Oupa Sehere matter, has Mrs Madikizela-Mandela ever made any approaches to you to resolve these problems, to reconcile with your family?

MS D CHILI: She has never approached me for any reconciliation. The two people who came to me it was Peter Mokaba and Rapo who were then in the Youth. Just before the release of Mr Mandela they came to my flat where I was staying then, that they were worried that our dispute, the dispute between me and Mrs Mandela is going to be problematic when Mr Mandela comes out, and it is their wish to see it resolved. I said to them I have no problem with that because I wanted it to be resolved too, but I said to them look it won't just be you coming to me because according to my custom a child is a family child, Finkie died in the house and I cannot claim her to be my child alone and take a decision alone, Finkie's father and mother ought to be there. My family ought to be there and Mrs Mandela's family ought to be there so that we resolve this thing and be done with it. They left, they never came back.

MR PIGOU: One last question to you Dudu Chili. Do you hold Mrs Madikizela-Mandela directly responsible for the problems which your family have had or do you rather see that she had no control over the people that were living in her house and that therefore she is not directly responsible for what has happened to your family?

MS D CHILI: I was very hurt that this thing happened to me especially that it happened with the Football Club which was connected to Mrs Mandela. I never thought a thing like that can happen, and I always thought that Mrs Mandela was a strong powerful woman and if she had the responsibility of the Football Club she could have managed to control them not to do the things that they did to the community.

MR PIGOU: Thank you. Just a couple of questions for Sibusiso Chili. Sibusiso in your statement to the Truth Commission you stated that when the Football Club was established most of your comrades joined the Club and you did not join. Now we have been talking in the last week or so about a period of 1987, 1988 and now the beginning of 1989 when this incident happened with Maxwell Madondo. During the course of those two years we have heard from your mother that there were attempts to get you to join the Football Club, were you able to walk around freely, as much as one could in those times in Soweto, or was there a constant fear in the back of your mind that something may happen to you as a result of your failure or refusal to join the Football Club?

MR S CHILI: I had no fear. There were some people who had fear but the situation that prevailed at the time was a scary one.

MR PIGOU: Did you make any attempts, because you talk about most of your comrades joining the Club, clearly these were people that you knew, did you make attempts to find out from those people what really was the motive behind your insecurity or the position that you were put in to be made to feel insecure, did you try and find out why certain people in the Club were targeting you?

MR S CHILI: I did not make any attempts from the Football Club members, even from other people who joined later, I did not ask anything.

MR PIGOU: Mr Chili did you have friends around you who possibly were also involved in disciplining other people in terms of, we've heard that your mother was a focal point of attention in that part of the community, was there any disciplinary action taken by yourself of unruly elements in the community?

MR S CHILI: No.

MR PIGOU: No further questions.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson. May I direct my questions to Mrs Chili. In, to use your phrase, face to face with Mrs Mandela has there been any unfriendly communication, verbal communication between the two of you?

MS D CHILI: No.

MR SEMENYA: My instructions are that since you have always related with one another, at least on a one-to-one in a very cordial way, is that right? And in fact she recalls an event when she invited you to go and deliver a speech, I think, at Wits for the students, do you recall that?

MS D CHILI: Yes I do.

MR SEMENYA: You do. Now Ma'am the one aspect to which you make reference relates to the son, to Nombulelo Makobo is that right?

MS D CHILI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And I think the son to her is a Mr Mbuyisa, is that right?

MS D CHILI: Mtando, we call him Mtando.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon.

MS D CHILI: Mtando.

DR BORAINE: Could I just interrupt you for a moment, I wonder if the witness would either move that or speak up a little bit. Thank you very much.

MR SEMENYA: Firstly let us locate the timeframe, Mbuyiso though is the gentleman who is carrying Hector Petersen in the famous photo, is that right?

MS D CHILI: I am talking about his younger brother, Mtando.

MR SEMENYA: My instructions are this Mtando never stayed at Mrs Mandela's house, do you have facts that you personally know that suggest that he in fact stayed there?

MS D CHILI: Yes that's why the mother came to demand why her son was not returning home whilst staying at Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela house.

MR SEMENYA: Let me put it differently, have you on occasion seen that young man sleeping at Mrs Mandela's house?

MS D CHILI: I was not sleeping there so I couldn't have seen him sleeping there.

MR SEMENYA: No I respect that you would not have been sleeping there, I am trying to establish whether out of own personal knowledge...

MS D CHILI: He did join the Football Club, that's why the mother came to me and said Dudu since Mtando has joined the Football Club he is no more returning home. Then that is when I said look I am not connected to the Football Club, you rather go and talk to Mrs Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: I take it Ma'am you cannot accept the factual correctness that the boy did sleep there, is that correct?

MS D CHILI: I tell you the mother came and asked me that since my son is not sleeping at home because he has joined the Football Club, then I referred her to Mrs Mandela. She came with this response that Mrs Mandela said I am feeding them. So that is my answer.

MR SEMENYA: Am I correct that you cannot vouch for the factual correctness of the information related to you by the mother?

MS D CHILI: Well she was the mother, she hinted to me that the son is no more sleeping at home because he has joined the Football Club, that is the reason why I referred him to Mrs Winnie Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: Put simply you just trusted her word, you can't vouch that it was correct, am I right?

MS D CHILI: She came back with the response after she said she went to Mrs Mandela's place.

MR SEMENYA: We will talk about the response later, let me just try and address each area with you in turn. It is only because you trusted her word that you gave the advice but you did not know that her communication to you was factually correct, is that right?

MS D CHILI: I didn't know if it was correct but I accepted it because I referred her to Mrs Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: And in fact it cannot assist me to try and exchange with you the incorrectness of that information because you have no first-hand knowledge of that information, am I right?

MS D CHILI: I think the mother wouldn't be a liar to come back and say I have been to Mrs Winnie Mandela's house and this is what she says. She did not deny that her child did not sleep there, but she just said if you are not feeding your children I am feeding them. She did not deny, according to the mother.

MR SEMENYA: Ma'am you don't help me if I tell you that Mrs Mandela denies that and you would say she is lying?

MS D CHILI: I beg your pardon?

MR SEMENYA: If I put it to you that Mrs Mandela denies the lady coming to her your response would be what?

MS D CHILI: My response will be that she came back and told me that response and then I believed her then.

MR SEMENYA: You don't believe Mrs Mandela if she asserted that the lady didn't come.

MR UNTERHALTER: With respect Mr Chairman might I intervene. It's not for my learned friend Mr Semenya to ask whether this witness believes that Mrs Mandela is lying. This witness can only say what she knew and was told. It's not a proper question to put.

DR BORAINE: I think that is fair, would it not be helpful, and I really don't want to interfere with your cross-examination, but I think the point you are making is that the witness did not see the particular person sleeping there. Perhaps if you just put that and she could say yes you are right I didn't see it, I only accepted somebody else's word, otherwise it may take us a very long time.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson I take the advice but it is the witness who is being invited to say she believed the other person X,Y,Z. Now I don't know what is the basis of her belief in one instance and non belief in the other, but I won't pursue the point.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Again you say that there was a decision that your boy must be killed, you were not there when this decision was taken, is that right?

MS D CHILI: Yes I wasn't there.

MR SEMENYA: You cannot speak for the correctness of that information or can you?

MS D CHILI: What made me believe that is because the following morning we saw figures surrounding my house, it confirmed that statement.

MR SEMENYA: Now it's only based on your belief, right? I see you nod your head, do you mean yes?

MS D CHILI: I beg your pardon?

MR SEMENYA: I see you are nodding your head, did you mean yes by that?

MS D CHILI: I believed it because the following morning it was confirmed by the people surrounding my house, that's why I believed it. I may not have believed it if it did not happen that way.

MR SEMENYA: Even when you tell us about the event where you say Madondo was caught and finally killed, this is not information that you personally saw, is that right?

MS D CHILI: I was there around the house when this thing happened. I did not witness the killing because I ran into the house because I was scared, because I did not know who was going to fall, whether my son or the assailant.

MR SEMENYA: Yes but you didn't witness it, right?

MS D CHILI: I didn't.

MR SEMENYA: In fact coming to the time when your house was burnt I understand you were not at home, is that right?

MS D CHILI: No I was not at home.

MR SEMENYA: Can I read to you what appears here to be an answer by Mrs Qoliswa Falati as an explanation for why your house was burnt. Chairperson I have a, it must be a radio interview transcript. I am unable to direct actual attention about the page and number but it appears and reads as follows:

"03.19.39.09. It was Chili's home which was burned. It was burned because Chili was working with Mrs Albertina Sisulu to help the boys run away from Winnie's home".

What is your - this is an explanation that is offered by Falati why your house was burned, what is your reaction Ma'am?

MS D CHILI: It could be one of the reasons because I did help some of the boys who had gone to Mrs Sisulu's house to get safe places. It could be one of the reasons.

MR SEMENYA: Can I ask Miss Chili, Barbara. I take it Ma'am you did not identify any of the assailants the day the house was burnt?

MS B CHILI: Please repeat your question.

MR SEMENYA: You did not have an opportunity to identify the assailants the day the house was burned?

MS B CHILI: No it was at night I did not see them.

MR SEMENYA: Can I then put the question to Sibusiso. I heard you say that after Maxwell was killed you saw a red car out of which Mrs Madikizela-Mandela stood outside with two bodyguards.

MR S CHILI: Yes I saw a red car.

MR SEMENYA: Out of which Mrs Madikizela-Mandela stood outside with two bodyguards.

MR S CHILI: Yes I saw a red car.

MR SEMENYA: Out of which came Mrs Madikizela-Mandela with two bodyguards.

MR S CHILI: Yes that's correct.

MR SEMENYA: Can I put it to you Sir that your information cannot be correct, at this time, at this time the Audi was long involved in an accident and the family was using a kombi, a microbus.

MR S CHILI: I am telling you that I saw a red car, whether there was an accident before that's none of my business but I saw a red car.

MR SEMENYA: ....advantage of your knowledge of the facts. Is it correct that the family was using a kombi, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's family?

MR S CHILI: When?

MR SEMENYA: Around the times when Mr Madondo was ...(intervention)

MR S CHILI: It was a red car.

MR SEMENYA: I am not having a quibble with you whether the car was red or not Sir, I am asking you a simple question, is it correct that around the time when Mr Madondo is killed Mrs Mandela's family was using a microbus?

MR S CHILI: No that's a blatant lie.

MR SEMENYA: We are told that Mr Kades, in a Supreme Court gave information that the activities were, the activities of the Football Club were on the instruction of Mrs Mandela, do you know who gave this instructions to Mr Kades?

MR S CHILI: Who is Kades?

MR SEMENYA: It's the gentleman on the other side of the table.

MR S CHILI: Please repeat your question.

MR SEMENYA: Would you know who would have given Mr Kades the instructions that the members of the Football team were instructed by Mrs Mandela?

MR S CHILI: That's what I will say.

MR SEMENYA: Let me repeat the question. Do you know who would have given him that instruction?

MR S CHILI: I hear that it's Winnie.

MR SEMENYA: The last time, are you able to tell us who would have given that instruction to Mr Kades?

MR S CHILI: Which instructions are you referring to?

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Before I ask the legal representatives to reply or rather to put their questions, I just want to point out the time and the heat of the day and if you could confine yourselves to five minutes I'd be most grateful. Please try.

MR KADES: Will I be permitted to make a statement Mr Chairman.

DR BORAINE: Of course go ahead.

MR KADES: I appeared at that trial and I defended the accused, I had in my possession a statement which I had taken from Katiza Cebekhulu stating precisely what I had read into the record. The position was that we had reached the last day of the trial and I had intended to call Katiza Cebekhulu but he was not available at court and I then said to the State prosecutor that this would necessitate a postponement because I considered this to be rather essential evidence insofar as the defence was concerned. He then asked me what it was that the witness would say. I told that - I mentioned to him that that was what the witness would say, he said that he was aware of that information and that the State would therefore make that admission, and the State therefore made that admission and it was no longer necessary to call Katiza Cebekhulu, and the matter went on to the records. After that had occurred, as I recall, it's been some years of course, Katiza Cebekhulu arrived at court but it was not necessary to call him because the admission had already been made.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Any other questions. Yes please go ahead.

MS HASSEN: Haisena Hassen, I represent Charles Zwane, also known as Bobo. I'd like to place questions to all the members there, I will keep it very brief. I would like to start with Sibusiso please.

Sibusiso I am led to believe that you and Bobo, also known as Charles Zwane came from the same neighbourhood and that you were friendly with him and that up to this day you are still friendly with him, is that true?

MR S CHILI: Bobo was never my friend, I just knew him, we greeted each other as usual.

MS HASSEN: Do you know if he was a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR S CHILI: Yes I know that.

MS HASSEN: Did you ever see Bobo surveying your house before the bomb attack?

MR S CHILI: I don't remember.

MS HASSEN: To Mrs Dudu Chili, can I ask you the same question and Mrs Barbara Chili as well, you can answer in turn. Did you ever see Bobo surveying your house before the attack, surveying the house? Standing around your house, you said that carried on for a week in your evidence to this Commission.

MS D CHILI: Can you repeat your question.

MS HASSEN: Sure. To put it another way, you said that members of the Mandela United Football Club were standing around your house having - trying to see whether Sibusiso was there, who was there, whatever they were doing around there, did you ever see Charles Zwane doing the same thing?

MS D CHILI: It was difficult to see because they were hiding their faces, it was really difficult because some were having scarves hanging along their faces and when they see us coming out they would turn and give us their backs. So it was very difficult to identify them.

MS HASSEN: Alright. I won't elicit your comment on this Barbara. What I just need to ask from you is whether you said in your statement or in your evidence now to the Commission that you saw a tall man with a balaclava on and a long coat during the attack, on the night of the attack, in other words another man with a gun, was he identifiable to you in any way as Charles Zwane also known as Bobo?

MS B CHILI: No I did not see him because he was hiding. He hid his face. I did not see him and his face was covered and it was at night.

MS HASSEN: Just two more questions. Sibusiso did Bobo ever speak to you about your conflict with the Mandela United Football Club before the incident of the burning of your house?

MR S CHILI: Yes I met Bobo but I was not at home.

MS HASSEN: Alright, so you did know Bobo then?

MR S CHILI: Yes I knew him.

MS HASSEN: Alright. To Mrs Chili and to the rest of the Chilis, Bobo gave evidence at this Commission that despite his convictions he denied that he was responsible for the bombing of your home and inter alia for the murder of Finkie Msomi. Do you people want to comment on this?

MS D CHILI: We don't want to comment on it.

MS HASSEN: Thank you. No further questions.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. Mr Unterhalter before I ask you to come back again I think I will give the panel an opportunity to ask any questions and I will start with Ms Yasmin Sooka.

MS SOOKA: Dudu I just have two questions. One, Todo of Mzimhlope what was his proper name?

MS D CHILI: I knew him by the name Todo, but I have just gathered that his other name is Oupa if I am not mistaken.

MS SOOKA: So your Todo is also the Todo that people are talking about.

MS D CHILI: Todo, yes.

MS SOOKA: Also in cross-examination Mr Semenya implied that you did have a long-standing relationship with Mrs Mandela, after all of this had happened did you ever approach Mrs Mandela directly to discuss this matter with her?

MS D CHILI: As I have said that the first instant when I discovered that they were wanting to kill Sibusiso I did go to Mrs Mandela to approach her about it.

MS SOOKA: No I am actually asking if, once the house had been burnt and Finkie had been killed was there any approach made by the Chili family to Mrs Mandela?

MS D CHILI: The what family?

MS SOOKA: Your family.

MS D CHILI: I was the one who was mourning Finkie's death here. Finkie was killed and I had expected that maybe Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela would say maybe it was a mistake, but it never happened.

MS SOOKA: Did you approach the Crisis Committee or any other community leader because from what I understand you yourself were also a member of Fetro at the time, was there any approach made by the organisation to try and do some kind of - to assess what could be done after this attack?

MS D CHILI: After the bombing of the house I was displeased for a long time until the unbanning of the organisation, that's when I had a hope that maybe the ANC may be in a position to resolve this problem, but nothing happened.

MS SOOKA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Mrs Mkhize.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Chairperson. My first question is directed to Mr Sibusiso Chili. Sibusiso how reliable were your informants that a verdict has been pronounced that he should be killed?

MR S CHILI: The person who came to tell me was Dodo. He did not even come to me, he told my mother, I only heard from my mother.

MS MKHIZE: You think there were some other young men who had not joined the Football Club and you were not the only one who did not join the Football Club, why were they after you specifically?

MR S CHILI: I was suggesting that they should ask the one who gave the orders for me to be killed. There is nothing I can answer thereof.

MS MKHIZE: Dudu do you think when looking back now maybe Stratcom was involved because it's like you were a leader, you were within the same organisation as Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and something happened which you both cannot explain, and it led to a point where there were deaths on the part of the Football Club and also on the part of your family, I mean is it possible that there was a Stratcom agent fuelling something?

MS D CHILI: The word Stratcom it's a new word to me. I have not been aware of any Stratcom, it's just a new word to me so I wouldn't say it could have been responsible.

MS MKHIZE: At that time, well okay maybe you didn't, when you look back now even the security agents, if you were both activists in the area and also you had been detained is it possible that an agent interfered especially if you both cannot explain what was the cause of this animosity which developed?

MS D CHILI: If there was no Football Club I would have thought that way. But now there was a Football Club which Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela was responsible over it, so I don't think I would have thought otherwise.

DR BORAINE: Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Dudu and Sibusiso I just want you both to comment on this okay. Reading both your statements there is almost an impression created that there's a natural progression and let me explain that. The Football Club starts in 1986, you Dudu say, and your son say there is some unhappiness, in fact threats are made within weeks of the Football Club starting, okay. Then in your own words you say there is a lull, nothing happens and Sibusiso says he is able to walk around Soweto freely, he is able to walk around Orlando freely, and we know, I mean we've heard over the last eight or nine days again that all these other things are happening. Now we suddenly go to 1989 and the threats or you hear again that your son's life is at stake, now I want to actually try and separate, if I can, what happened in '86 from '89 because to me it doesn't seem to make sense. And is it possible that something happened between Sibusiso and some of the young people because again the impression that's being created is there is this Club that's formed in 1986 and there's a continuity to 1989, but is it possible that something happened between Sibusiso and some of the young people who lived, or may happen to have lived in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's yard that initiated this thing again in February of 1989?

MD D CHILI: Commissioner when I went to approach Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about why the Football Club was wanting to kill Sibusiso and the response that I have already said here, I approached my cousin who has been a long-standing friend to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I was still at school when they were friends, and they are still friends even today, and incidentally it happened that she married, she got married to a man who his daughter got married to Magatu, Mr Mandela's son. I went to Nono my cousin and I said Nono I don't know what is happening but I know you are good friends, you are friends with Mrs Mandela, would you intervene for Sibusiso's sake, and I had thought when this thing lulled I thought maybe Nono did go and approach her. That was my belief. I never followed it up but when it stopped I said maybe Nono did approach her.

DR RANDERA: Dudu sorry again, we are talking about almost a two year period between the - maybe I am being quite liberal in terms of two years between the beginning and the ending, that's what I am trying to understand.

MS D CHILI: I stated here I think the thing that triggered it again it was when Lerothodi pointed two boys who helped Richardson when he was cutting Lerothodi, injuring Lerothodi, that these two boys were pointed to Sibusiso by Lerothodi saying these are the two young men who helped Richardson when they were attacking me. When Sibusiso said Lerothodi let's not fight them, let's take them to Mama so that they can talk to them, and later it was said that one of the boys was summonsed, I don't know whether Mrs Mandela was aware or it was just the Football Club alone but he was summonsed to Mrs Mandela's house and after that, that's when it came that they have become problematic, they have got to be killed.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Dr Mgojo.

DR MGOJO: Thank you. I had decided not to say anything but I want to make a follow-up. The question was asked whether you did go to Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela to talk about what was happening, especially after the burning of your house and you said you didn't, am I correct?

MS D CHILI: Yes I didn't, yes.

DR MGOJO: And you said that you expected her to come to you, why would she come to you?

MS D CHILI: Commissioner, if Mrs Mandela is a leader and we are working in the same camp if it was me who had done something bad to her I am sure I would have come back to my senses and said look I have wronged Mrs Mandela, let me bow down and say Mrs Mandela I am sorry because I have wronged you. I expected that she would come and say Dudu, let's bury the hatchet, it was a mistake that happened, but it never happened.

DR MGOJO: I am just checking that had she considered that she had done something wrong to you?

MS D CHILI: You mean to say was she aware?

DR MGOJO: No I am just saying, has she considered that she had done something wrong to you which would force her to come to you and say that Dudu I am sorry I have done this thing?

MS D CHILI: I don't know.

DR MGOJO: You don't know.

MS D CHILI: Yes.

DR MGOJO: Let's say she had come to you, I think firstly there was a question which was directed to you so that for the sake of reconciliation you would find it very hard because there are so many people involved, you say that the child died in the fire and it involved another family, what would you have done if she did come to you?

MS D CHILI: I didn't say it was going to be hard, I said let it happen, but it never happened.

DR MGOJO: Was it going to be easy for you to make reconciliation if she did come to you?

MS D CHILI: Yes if she has come the way I said she could come and we sat down I would.

DR BORAINE: Mr Unterhalter.

MR UNTERHALTER: Three short questions Dudu. When you went to see Mrs Mandela about the pressure which was being put on Sibusiso to join the Club did she apologise then that any pressure was being on him at all? Did she say I will take steps to see that there is no coercion being placed on your son?

MS D CHILI: No, the answer was that if he is not in the Football Club obviously the other youth members would suspect him to be a sell-out. That was the answer.

MR UNTERHALTER: Then secondly, at these hearings did you encounter Charles Zwane, did he speak to you?

MS D CHILI: He did speak to me.

MR UNTERHALTER: And what did he say to you?

MS D CHILI: In fact he was grateful that I came and spoke to him, that he has suffered for so many years with this thing inside him.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

MS D CHILI: And for me talking to him it's such a relief within him.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did he admit to any responsibility for the burning of your house and did he apologise for it?

MS D CHILI: No not exactly because he said there's a young man who identified him on a parade that he was party to the bombing of my house and that he denies he did it.

MR UNTERHALTER: I see. Can I ask you then lastly, after your house was burnt down did you have to live in safe houses for a period of time?

MS D CHILI: Yes for a long time I was moved from place to place.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes who was threatening you that you had to live in safe houses?

MS D CHILI: There was this fear that they made at the Football Club or they will still hit at us. So we were moved from place to place for safety.

MR UNTERHALTER: Chairperson there are just two final matters. The first is that Dudu Chili would like to make a statement of gratitude to Todo but before she does so we have two statements, one from Elliot Khumalo and the other from Jacob Maupai who we believe is Todo, we have made them available yesterday to either Hanif or Piers, we would like those statements either to be handed up or used for the purposes of determining these facts and we would just refer to them and perhaps in due course they could be made use of by the Commission. But then we would like an opportunity for Dudu to make a statement on Todo.

DR BORAINE: Just before I give her an opportunity, the statements that are now being handed out has Mr Semenya had sight ...(intervention)

MR UNTERHALTER: I don't believe that he has.

DR BORAINE: Then I don't think we can really, at this late stage, well we can certainly accept them and I hope that copies will be made available immediately, but I don't think we should read that into the record unless we first confirm.

MR UNTERHALTER: No I am entirely happy just to refer to them and that they are available to the Commission.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. Mrs Chili you wanted to make a short statement.

MS D CHILI: I just wanted to thank Todo for coming to alert us about the alleged killing of Sibusiso because I have always lived with that admiration for him that he had the guts, no matter how dangerous it was for him, to come and notify us that Sibusiso was about to be killed. And Sibusiso is alive today because of Todo because otherwise they would have been caught unaware by the people who wanted to kill them, that's why I want to say thank you very much Todo.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. I am very glad you have taken the opportunity to do that.

I assume Mr Unterhalter you are complete?

MR UNTERHALTER: I have Chairperson.

DR BORAINE: Can I just then before I ask you to stand down, just make a brief comment to the effect that you and your family have suffered a great deal, like so many other people suffered during those difficult years. Whoever was responsible for that, whether it be the burning of the house, the killing, the attempted killing the suffering is real, no one can dispute that, that you have suffered a great deal, and we are grateful that you have had the courage to come here today and to share that with us.

Can I also express the hope that if it was not possible then to find some reconciliation that perhaps as a direct result of this hearing, of coming together, that between yourself and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, and I would put the comment to both of you, that there may be some opportunity outside this forum to find each other, I hope that will happen and I hope there will be an opportunity to do that, because if only that happens, if only that happens then seven days of hearing would have been worthwhile. Thank you very much indeed. You may stand down. Hanif.

MR VALLY: With Mr Semenya's permission I will just read paragraph 1 and then from 11 onwards if you are happier rather than reading everything.

DR BORAINE: Proceed please.

MR VALLY: Thank you.

"My name is Vusi Madida. I was born in Mozambique and I am presently living in Johannesburg".

I go on to paragraph 11 -

"In November/December 1992, after there was a lot of publicity around weapon smuggling from Mozambique to South Africa I decided to go to the police and give the information I had about Alex Mamba and his involvement in weapon smuggling from Mozambique. I went to the police station in West Street in Durban, I met with a policeman in civilian clothes. After 15 minutes I was fetched by a police car, I was taken to C R Swart police station in Durban. We had a discussion and he told me to write down my story and to come back after a couple of days. He also told me he had been a Koevoet member. Furthermore he gave me his telephone number. I cannot remember the name of this police officer but I gave the name in a statement to representatives from the organisation, Lawyers for Human Rights in 1993.

I went home and wrote down my story. I contacted the police officer the next day. I met him the same evening. He took me to the beach front in Durban and I gave him the statement. He was not satisfied and said he wanted more information about ANC members, ANC training, ANC offices etc. He also showed me photographs of ANC members. I identified some people from photos that he showed me. He gave me R300 in cash and also asked me to go to KwaMashu township, J Section to see if I recognised any MK soldiers. I was told to inform him if I identified any MK members.

I met a girl that I knew from my time in exile, she showed me around and I met a number of MK soldiers that I could point out for the police. After I delivered some information I was asked to leave Durban and to go to Johannesburg. They wanted me to work for the police in Johannesburg. I was told to contact the police in Durban as soon as I arrived to get further instruction.

When I came back to Johannesburg I went to the Madida's house where I had stayed before. I contacted the police in Durban and I was asked to go to Shell House and try to identify some of the people there. I phoned the police in Durban and told them that I had identified some people then they told me they wanted to meet at the Carlton Centre, this was in December 1992. I was later introduced to two people, probably from Johannesburg CID. I was told to contact them again.

In mid-January 1993 I was told by the policeman from Johannesburg that I should go to KwaThema Social Welfare to get help. Everything was arranged, I went there and they arranged a house for me to stay in. Later I was contacted and taken to Springs police station. At the Springs police station I met with police officer Mr Bowen. He instructed me to cooperate with some other people that would contact me at a later stage.

Furthermore he told me to tell these people that I had been involved in violent operations with other black people. According to the instructions I should tell these people that we had been given instructions by Mrs Winnie Mandela and that she also on some of the occasions had participated in the operations. The operations were about killings at train stations and in townships.

I was taken to certain places by the police and showed the scenes of previous incidents. At these places I was given detailed instructions about which stories I should tell the people who would contact me at a later stage. I was also told to implicate ANC members that I knew in these operations. I was furthermore instructed to mention Alex Mamba as the weapon supplier and that we also, on a few occasions, got weapons from Mrs Winnie Mandela. I remember that I was instructed to mention that I was involved in the Thokoza massacre, Mzimhlope train station massacre...."

it says "Kalweni massacre" here, I see it's (...indistinct)

".... all those incidents took place in 1991/1992. I was given these instructions at the Springs Police station, I was given R400 the same day, this was in the beginning of February 1993.

On the 12th of February 1993 I was called to the Social Welfare Department, I met with people who I later understood were from Lawyers for Human Rights, they told me they wanted to speak with me about my role as an informer, they took me to their offices, the office on Von Weilig Street in Johannesburg, there was also a man from ANC Intelligence Service who came to see me. I was interviewed for a couple of months by different people from the LHR, they didn't believe me so I finally confessed that it was a set-up.

Later I was sent to the Goldstone Commission, I stayed for two months under the witness protection, however, I was interviewed by members of the Security Branch head office and I didn't trust them so I decided not to cooperate.

I left the Goldstone Commission in July 1993. Later when I applied for an extension of my passport I was arrested and taken to John Vorster police station. I was interrogated and forced to give them information as to where to find weapons. I showed them a place in Dube in Soweto where they found six AK-47's and one Makarov pistol. This was in block 8B. After this I was deported to Mozambique. This was on 16th of October 1993.

I do not remember the names of all the people from the police that I met but I think I gave the names to the Goldstone Commission. There should be documentation available from my testimony before the Goldstone Commission.

Vusi Madida".

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. I hope I won't be regarded as flippant if I hope and say that I hope that he's back in Mozambique.

There are two announcements I want to make before we adjourn. Firstly we will have a fairly heavy programme tomorrow. We will try to start with the police who are, the one policeman who was ill and he is going to be here tomorrow, straight after that was early as possible in the day, Jerry Richardson and then obviously Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. We are hoping very much indeed that we can finish tomorrow night, we will not rush it unduly. If there is more time needed we will have to meet on the Thursday.

The second announcement is an announcement which the Archbishop will now read which has to do with the announcement by the Minister of Justice concerning the recommendations of the Goldstone Commission of Inquiry concerning very serious allegations against Mr Dumisa Ntsebeza. Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission warmly welcomes the findings and recommendations of the Goldstone Commission of Inquiry. Whilst Judge Goldstone's finding that the allegations are false was wholly expected we are nevertheless thrilled that Mr Ntsebeza's name has been cleared completely and finally by an independent Commission of Inquiry.

Having acknowledged when we called for the Commission to be appointed that we should have referred allegations implicating Commissioner Dumisa Ntsebeza in the Heidelberg Tavern attack to outside investigators we accept without hesitation Judge Goldstone's finding that we erred in not having the allegations independently investigated immediately upon learning of them.

The failure of the police to follow up and investigate properly the allegations against Mr Ntsebeza is shocking, as were the actions of senior police officers in casting aspersions on Mr Ntsebeza in newspaper interviews during the recent controversy over the allegations.

We welcome the recommendations -

1. that a further investigation should be held to establish both the motives of Mr Bennet Sibaya in implicating Mr Ntsebeza and whether other persons conspired with Mr Sibaya;

2. that this further investigation should be overseen by the Independent Complaints Directorate of the SAPS;

3. that the Attorney General should consider criminal proceedings against Mr Sibaya.

The TRC intends pursuing vigorously action against Captain John Lubbe, a former TRC investigator for improperly removing documents from our possession.

The Commission also welcomes Judge Goldstone's perceptive references to the role which racism and fear of perceived racism may have played in the handling of this affair. We agree that it will require hard work from all sectors of society including within the TRC to overcome this problem.

Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Archbishop. Mr Semenya I noticed your hand up, let me just before we adjourn then give you an opportunity. Order please.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson to facilitate the conduct of my client's case tomorrow I would still make the request today that I obtain at least a statement of Lt Colonel Muller because I don't want to put that allegation as an if or a but.

DR BORAINE: Thank you this will be conveyed to - in fact he is listening to you carefully.

MR VALLY: I am told that we do not have a statement from Lt Colonel Muller, we have tried to in a general sense talk to a number of Security Branch policemen with their lawyers to secure their cooperation. We haven't succeeded in obtaining their cooperation, that is why we are putting on record that we see that as being part of the incomplete work of this hearing and we will have to subpoena them to the January hearing.

Having said that we would also like to know how long does Mr Semenya envisage that his client will take with her opening address?

DR BORAINE: Are you able to - no. I think we should adjourn otherwise everybody is going to fall over. This meeting is adjourned. Thank you very much for all your cooperation. Half past eight tomorrow morning.

HEARING ADJOURNS