--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We want to start the proceedings. It is for the record Wednesday, 4th October 2000 and we are proceeding with the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg. The Panel is constituted as will be apparent from the record. The matter before us this morning is the amnesty application of Paul Ramashetla Rammusi, amnesty reference AM5488/97. Mr Knopp, do you want to put yourself on record?

MR KNOPP: Thank you Mr Chairperson. My name is Knopp, K-N-O-P-P, initials H.A. Advocate, I appear for the applicant in this matter today.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Knopp. And the Leader of Evidence?

MS MTANGA: I'm Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ma'am. Mr Knopp, do you want your client to be sworn in?

MR KNOPP: Thank you.


EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Rammusi, you are the applicant today before this tribunal?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: What is your age?

MR RAMMUSI: I am 38 years old now.

MR KNOPP: Did you depose to an affidavit in this matter? I'm showing it to you now, does it contain your signatures?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Mr Chairperson, the affidavit appears in the bundle as pages 10, 11 and 12 in the hand-written form and pages 8 and 9 in the typed version thereof.

Mr Rammusi, you're a member of the African National Congress?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: And were you also a member of the movement known as Umkhonto weSizwe?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Is it so that you received military training as a member of Umkhonto weSizwe?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Where did you receive this training?

MR RAMMUSI: In Angola in 1983.

MR KNOPP: When you finished your training did you return to the Republic of South Africa?

MR RAMMUSI: It was quite some time before coming back home because in 1985 I did further training until in 1986.

MR KNOPP: When did you return to South Africa?

MR RAMMUSI: I arrived in South Africa in 1987 in May.

MR KNOPP: And what area were you living?

MR RAMMUSI: When I arrived I went to Rustenberg because I was doing political work and I left Rustenberg for Soweto. From Soweto I went to Springs, that is kwaThema.

MR KNOPP: And during approximately August and September 1987 were you in Springs?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Is KwaThema one of the suburbs or townships of Springs?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Did you hold a specific position in KwaThema at the time?

MR RAMMUSI: Yes, I was the second-in-command at that time.

MR KNOPP: In command of what?

MR RAMMUSI: Political as well as military units.

MR KNOPP: And who was the commander?

MR RAMMUSI: It was Simon Nkuna at that time.

MR KNOPP: Now there are two men sitting here in this hall. They're dressed in prison clothes. Do you know them?

MR RAMMUSI: I see them, yes.

MR KNOPP: Who are they?

MR RAMMUSI: It's The Whizz Rantlha and Moesa Nkauta.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat those names please? Interpreter just spell it for me?

INTERPRETER: The Whizz Rantlha and Moesa Nkauta. Rantlha - R-A-N-T-L-H-A. Nkauta - N-K-A-U-T-A.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just enquire? Your commander, could you just spell out his name? Was it Nkuma or Nkuna?


MR KNOPP: Mr Ramussi, these two men are they presently serving out sentences at Modderbee Prison in the Springs area?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: That in 1987, were you together with them?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Were they co-members or comrades of yours?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: And on the date of the instant in approximately September 1987 were they together with you?

MR RAMMUSI: Yes they were together with me.

MR KNOPP: Were you travelling in a certain motor vehicle at the time?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Who was the driver?

MR RAMMUSI: The driver was Moesa at that time.

MR KNOPP: Where were you sitting?

MR RAMMUSI: I was at the back seat.

MR KNOPP: And where was Daniel Rantlha sitting?

MR RAMMUSI: I don't quite recall, we were four in a car and we were in the company of some girls at that time and we had gone for a reconnaissance mission.

MR KNOPP: Do you remember the type of motor vehicle?

MR RAMMUSI: It was a Ford.

MR KNOPP: Was this motor vehicle a lawful motor vehicle or had it been stolen?

MR RAMMUSI: It was a stolen car so to - I wouldn't say it was a stolen car but we actually took cars for the mission of the organisation.

MR KNOPP: Yes, but the point is this, if the Police would come across such a vehicle would the Police become suspicious from the vehicle?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct, the Police would suspect such a car. They suspected the car because it was in high speed.

MR KNOPP: And what arms and ammunition did you have?

MR RAMMUSI: A rifle, AK47 and grenades and a pistol.

MR KNOPP: Which weapon did you personally use at the time?

MR RAMMUSI: I had an AK47.

MR KNOPP: Were you travelling in an area known as Senta?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: And what happened then?

MR RAMMUSI: The Police tried to stop us on the road. We did not stop because my driver was a very good driver so we managed to speed off and we managed to reach White City and we got out of the car and fired at them.

MR KNOPP: Before your motor vehicle came to a standstill did the Police shoot at your vehicle?

MR RAMMUSI: They shot the back window of the vehicle.

MR KNOPP: Was that during the chase?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: At what stage did anyone return fire from your vehicle?

MR RAMMUSI: May you repeat your question please?

MR KNOPP: At what stage did anybody return fire from your vehicle?

MR RAMMUSI: We were already at White City. We got out of the car and we went into the township and that's when we managed to shoot back at them.

MR KNOPP: Can you say how many policemen there were at the time?

MR RAMMUSI: I am not sure really because after this incident those who got injured were transported in their car and they left.

MR KNOPP: During this instant did you fire at the Police with an AK47?

MR RAMMUSI: Yes I did.

MR KNOPP: And one or more members of the South African Police injured in the shoot out?

MR RAMMUSI: I know that one got injured but in the newspaper it was reported that it was more than one person who got injured. I wasn't sure, I was really not sure of the number but I knew that it was only one person that got injured.

MR KNOPP: After the shoot-out did you and the other occupants get into the Ford motor vehicle again?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: And did you drive away from the scene?

MR RAMMUSI: Yes, we left the scene.

MR KNOPP: At a certain place did you part from the other occupants of the vehicle?

MR RAMMUSI: Yes, there was such a time we parted ways.

MR KNOPP: Were you left with any arms or ammunition?

MR RAMMUSI: No, The Whizz left them all and he left from Sikani.

MR KNOPP: Was there not another instant that night where you proceeded to the house of the policeman in White City, KwaThema?

MR RAMMUSI: There is such an incident, yes.

MR KNOPP: At the time of that instant were you armed with anything?

MR RAMMUSI: I was armed with a handgrenade at that time.

MR KNOPP: And do you know the identity of that policeman, the ...(indistinct) of the house?

MR RAMMUSI: I knew the policeman by sight because he resided in the township.

MR KNOPP: Not his name?

MR RAMMUSI: I don't know his name.

MR KNOPP: Do you have the address perhaps?

MR RAMMUSI: I only know that it's Mikakumbani Street. When I arrived at this policeman's house I threw the handgrenade through the window. The front door was open and there were elderly people in the house so I had to avoid them and throw the grenade into an empty room and for political propaganda.

MR KNOPP: Can you say whether the handgrenade exploded?

MR RAMMUSI: Yes, it exploded in the room.

MR KNOPP: Can you say whether anyone was injured during that instant?

MR RAMMUSI: I would not recall what happened. I only heard a rumour that a person died during the crossfire.

MR KNOPP: Yes Mr Rammusi, my question is actually, from the explosion of the handgrenade was anyone injured?

MR RAMMUSI: Nobody because there was nobody in that room.

ADV BOSMAN: I'm completely confused now, I may have missed something. Where did the person die in the crossfire? You said a person died during the crossfire, you heard about it?

MR RAMMUSI: The person was in Matsoegi Street. It was during a shoot-out between ourselves and the Police.

MR KNOPP: Is the position that you're not sure whether that deceased was struck by a bullet shot by either yourself or your comrades or the South African Police?

MR RAMMUSI: We are not sure, Sir.

MR KNOPP: And you don't know the identity of that deceased?

MR RAMMUSI: I do not know the identity of the deceased.

MR KNOPP: After these two incidents did you go into hiding?

MR RAMMUSI: After these incidents I took out an order that the chaps should go underground. I left for Soweto and I went on with my political activities.

MR KNOPP: After a few weeks did you proceed to Botswana?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: Did the South African Police later arrest your comrades Rantlha and Nkauta?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: And were the firearms and ammunition confiscated by the South African Police at the time of the arrest of your comrades?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: How long did you spend in Botswana for?

MR RAMMUSI: A few months, Sir, and afterwards I left for Zambia.

MR KNOPP: When did you return again for South Africa?

MR RAMMUSI: In 1993 when we all came back home.

MR KNOPP: Is that you and the other political exiles?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: You have never been charged or prosecuted for these offences?


MR KNOPP: And are you contending that you committed these acts with a political motive?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MR KNOPP: And what was that political motive?

MR RAMMUSI: The political objective was to remove the previous regime that oppressed the people and we all know that we were fighting a military junta and we really wanted to remove the regime that was not serving the people of the country, they were only serving the interests of the whites and that is why I came to South Africa so that I could also be part of the people who were fighting the old regime, to remove it from power and get a new government instead.

MR KNOPP: Now one of the members of the South African Police that was injured during that skirmish about which you testified is sitting here today. It's Superintendent Ludick. Do you see him?

MR RAMMUSI: I see the man sitting there.

MR KNOPP: Do you have anything to say to him?

MR RAMMUSI: There is something I'd like to say to him and this is that it was not our wish to injure or to kill. We were just performing our freedom duties and I did all this in South Africa because I was on command. I was part of the family of the ANC and if we wanted something we had to get it. He got injured and I wouldn't like to see him with one arm really. He got injured because we were in a war situation. I am saying to you Sir I did not do this deliberately. There was no choice. There was no other way. The only way was to be engaged in war and get our land back, all of us. Today all of us we are happy and we enjoy our liberation.

MR KNOPP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.


CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, I do have a few.

Mr Rammusi, when did you join the ANC?

MR RAMMUSI: I joined the ANC in 1982.

MS MTANGA: Where did you join it?

MR RAMMUSI: In Botswana.

MS MTANGA: And when did you become a member of the MK?

MR RAMMUSI: I became a member of the MK in 1983.

MS MTANGA: Where did you join the MK?

MR RAMMUSI: In Zambia, that's where our offices were situated.

MS MTANGA: The two persons, that is Mr Nkauta and Rantlha who were involved with you in this incident, were they also members of the ANC?

MR RAMMUSI: They were members of the ANC internally not outside. In other words I trained them inside the country.

MS MTANGA: Were they members of your unit?

MR RAMMUSI: They were members of my unit at that time, yes. At the time of their training in 1987.

MS MTANGA: At the time you came across the Police vehicle and you had weapons in your car, what were you going to use those weapons for?

MR RAMMUSI: We had not yet had a mission, we were still busy with reconnaissance. I was still busy with the planning of operations. When they intercepted us we were from a reconnaissance mission.

MS MTANGA: Where did they obtain these weapons from?

MR RAMMUSI: I brought them with from Botswana.

MS MTANGA: And then when the Police tried to stop you why didn't you stop?

MR RAMMUSI: The first thing is because we had weapons. The second point I had documents containing certain information. The third point, the car that we were using was taken from a white person for public use and it was a criminal offence during those days to be found in possession of weapons and information very sensitive.

MS MTANGA: When you were asked about whether this car was stolen or not you said this car was actually taken. Was this a stolen vehicle that you were driving?

MR RAMMUSI: I wouldn't like to talk too much and say that the car that we were in was stolen. Our war, the war I was involved in was an urban warfare and I needed to have transportation means. We did not negotiate with the owner maybe but the armed struggle language would not be stolen, no. The vehicle was expropriated.

MS MTANGA: Would you say you took it by force from the owner?

MR RAMMUSI: No, to expropriate means you can take somebody's vehicle and not pay the person anything and maybe not return the car because you use it for public purposes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rammusi, just give us the details about that expropriation, where did it occur? When?

MR RAMMUSI: I actually delegated. If I had an operation, I had members of the units who are given different responsibilities.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now where did it occur and when? Can you give us all the details not all the facts. Can you just tell us, just brief, I just want information. Where was this vehicle expropriated and when?

MR RAMMUSI: In Springs, that is I don't know the place exactly where in Springs the car was expropriated but it was in the same year.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1987? Which year was it?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct, 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: How long roughly before this incident with the Police?

MR RAMMUSI: I think a day before.


MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I would just like to confirm that according to Inspector Samuel Ludick who was a policeman driving the Police vehicle on the day, he suspected that vehicle to be a stolen vehicle by looking at the registration number of it hence the reason that the three were chased by the Police.

You mention that you also later on in that day involved in throwing a handgrenade at a policeman's house?

MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: When did you decide to do this? When did you plan that operation?

MR RAMMUSI: Because the interception had already taken place I was very happy to be involved in that hit because the ANC gathered some facts because of that propaganda and it gained support as well.

MS MTANGA: My question was, when did you plan the operation to attack the policeman's house with a handgrenade? When was that planned?

MR RAMMUSI: At the time.

MS MTANGA: Where you aware if this policeman was amongst the policemen who were chasing you at that time or who came to the scene of the shoot-out?

MR RAMMUSI: The policeman was not among the others.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no further questions.


CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: Can you give us the name of the person who was involved in the what you called expropriation of the car? Who was physically involved in that?

MR RAMMUSI: I sent Moesa to do the expropriation.

ADV SANDI: When you were being chased after by the Police, how many exactly were you in the car? You mentioned some girls who were in your company?

MR RAMMUSI: If I recall well we were four in the vehicle.

ADV SANDI: Namely?

MR RAMMUSI: Moesa, The Whizz. I do not know the names of these girls, we were using them for less suspicion methods or actions on the way.

ADV SANDI: How many girls?

MR RAMMUSI: There were two.

ADV SANDI: Who is The Whizz? Sorry, I don't follow?

MR RAMMUSI: The Whizz Rantlha.

ADV SANDI: Is that Rantlha?

MR RAMMUSI: Yes, that's Rantlha.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just enquire, who gave you orders to come into South Africa and become politically active here? Who was your commander then?

MR RAMMUSI: At that time I was working with Commander Chris Hani.

ADV BOSMAN: And were you then told to join up with Mr Nkuna or that just sort of happened as you went along with your activities?

MR RAMMUSI: I was not told that. I was sent into the country to create the underground units in South Africa.

ADV BOSMAN: And then after this incident did you report this back to Mr Nkuna? These two incidents?

MR RAMMUSI: Simon Nkuna was working from Pretoria at that time. When we arrived in South Africa we came up with a method of scattering in South Africa so that we are not all gathered at one place and be easily arrested. If the whole unit is arrested then we're all dead so we were all scattered.

ADV BOSMAN: My question was did you report to Mr Nkuna about these two incidents? He was working from Pretoria, I understand, but my question is did you report to him what had taken place. The shoot-out with the Police and the throwing of the handgrenade?

MR RAMMUSI: Yes, he knows that.

ADV BOSMAN: And he approved of it?


ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Knopp?

MR KNOPP: No re-examination, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Rammusi, you are excused. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other evidence?

MR KNOPP: That is the evidence for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?


MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no evidence to lead but I would like the Committee to allow me to place on record the details of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Please go ahead ma'am.

MS MTANGA ADDRESSES: We have present today at the hearing Inspector Samuel Ludick the junior who was shot in the neck during the shoot-out with the applicant and his co-perpetrators. His address is Organised Crime Unit, Nongqai, Post Office Avenue, Springs. Telephone number 011-8153141.

The second person who was with him in the vehicle was his father who was then not a policeman. His name is also Samuel Ludick so I'll refer to him as Mr Samuel Ludick senior. He was shot in the leg during the shoot-out. His contact details will be the same as Mr Ludick junior.

And then the policeman whose house was thrown with a handgrenade, his name is Abel Sealogo. I didn't get his ranking in the Police at that time. He is Abel Sealogo, spelt S-E-A-L-O-G-O, but no one was injured at the house but his house was damaged as a result. He has passed away, he passed away about four weeks ago. His son, Det. Sgt. Andrew Sealogo indicated to Mr Ludick that he would have loved to attend but due to the death in the family he was unable to attend. He is also with the same unit as Inspector Ludick. His contact number is 0829339185.

The fourth person who was a bystander and who was shot dead during the shoot-out, his or her details are unknown but Inspector Ludick promised to assist us to get the details of this person. An advert was also placed on the newspaper for them to approach us but no one has come forward on this incident.

And then lastly, Chairperson, I'd like to place on record that I consulted with the two implicated people. Their full names are Moesa Nkaota. Nkaota is spelt N-K-A-O-T-A. And the second named person who is referred to as The Whizz is Daniel Rantlha, that's his real name, Daniel Rantlha. They both are convicted of this incident but they got indemnity in 1991 and they indicated that the applicant didn't get indemnity because he was out of the country at that time when they applied for indemnity. That is all I wanted to place before the Committee, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. We have noted all of that information. Mr Knopp have you got any submissions?

MR KNOPP IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I would respectfully submit that the application of the applicant complies with the technical requirement of Act 34/1995. Secondly, I would submit that the acts about which the tribunal has heard were motivated and associated with a definite political objective and thirdly and lastly I would respectfully submit that the applicant has made full disclosure of all the relevant facts to the best of his ability and I would ask that the tribunal grant amnesty to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Knopp. Ms Mtanga, any submissions?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no submissions to make and I'm not opposing this application.


CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, that concludes the matter. The Panel will consider the application and will endeavour to prepare a decision in this matter as soon as the circumstances permit so the decision will be reserved.

Mr Knopp, we thank you for your assistance. You had another matter before us this morning but there have been some logistical and other problems so I think that takes care of your interests today at least, but you're excused.

MR KNOPP: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Only with pleasure. Thank you very much. And Inspector Ludick, thank you for your presence and thank you for the assistance that you promised in regard to locating or trying to ascertain the information concerning the bystander that was injured in the particular incident. Thank you for attending and the best of luck.

Yes Ms Mtanga, do you want us to stand down or what?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, I'd like us to stand down to organise ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well you order us to stand down so we'll do that until you order us to come back.

MS MTANGA: I will do so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll stand down briefly.






CHAIRPERSON: We're proceeding to hear the amnesty application of Paulus Mokgali. The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. The Leader of Evidence is still Ms Mtanga and I'm going to allow an opportunity for the other legal representatives to place themselves on record on behalf of the applicant?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, I'm Sanjay Makanjee, I'm appearing on behalf of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Makanjee and then Advocate Makhubele?

MR MAKHUBELE: Ms T A Makhubele representing the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ma'am. Mr Makanjee, do you want to put anything on record or do you want me to administer the oath to your client and proceed to his evidence?

MR MAKANJEE: I would prefer if you administer the oath, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Mokhali, what language are you going to testify in?

MR MOKHALI: I'm going to testify in Sesotho.


EXAMINATION BY MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mokhali, are you a member of any political party?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: Which party is that, Sir?

MR MOKHALI: African National Congress.

MR MAKANJEE: When did you become a member of the African National Congress?

MR MOKHALI: I became a member of the African National Congress in 1988.

MR MOKHALI: Thank you. You are applying for amnesty for which incidents, Sir?

MR MOKHALI: For the incident of murder and attempted murder and many others and others related to those.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay, with regard to the amnesty application that you filled in I notice that paragraph 9 stipulates that you're applying for two murders plus attempted murder. Could you explain why there's a discrepancy now?

MR MOKHALI: Yes, that includes two murders and attempted murder.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you explain the circumstances that led to the murders that you're referring to?

MR MOKHALI: I'm a resident at Zonkezizwe in East Rand, that is between Vosloorus and Katlehong. In 1990 there were marches. We marches of the high rent that we were paying and we were not very satisfied with the amount that we were paying, this was the places that we lived in. Now some of the comrades were found there on the 12th October ...(intervention)

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, Sir. I'm referring to the incident that occurred in Everton.

MR MOKHALI: To get to these matters I have to start from the scratch, really, because if I start in the middle you'll not know which is the tail, which is the head. I really have to explain this in detail until I get to a point where the murders occurred.

MR MAKANJEE: Continue?

MR MOKHALI: There was violence between two organisations, the ANC and members of the IFP, Inkatha Freedom Party. On the 12th November 1990, as I've mentioned, there was a fight between these two organisations. Now the ANC, in other words the comrades of the ANC, were not wanted in Zonkezizwe area. It was said that they influenced people to be involved in protests.

Now during the fighting, members of the ANC were injured. Towards the end of October members of the ANC removed us and relocated us to Polla Park close to Thokoza. Still they were fighting and I left that area for Sebokeng. The reason for that was because my leader died in the hostel. They had gone there to kidnap a person who was working with the Police, supplying the members of Inkatha with weapons. I then left Polla Park for Sebokeng.

In Sebokeng still there were fights. My commander had already given me instructions that listen, if you are a member of the ANC there is no turning back. If your community is in danger you have to move forward. Now I arrived in Sebokeng and we discovered that people were being killed all over the place. In taverns, when they are attending funerals. Now I had to ...(intervention)

MR MAKANJEE: Which people were being killed in taverns and all over the place and who was killing people?

MR MOKHALI: Members of the IFP and the third force.

It was evident that as members of the ANC we were supposed to stand on our feet and protect the community in the township. Our comrade, called Msoke, who was from exile was then killed. After his death people were killed at the tavern, I mean at the night vigil and people were also killed from the Free State and in Serela people were also killed. That was in 1992 in July.

Comrade Mandela had suspended Codesa II because of those people who were killed. He said the then regime was not prepared to talk to him because his people were being killed. When we looked at the situation we noticed that there were patrol companies assisting the government together with Inkatha Freedom Party to murder people in the townships and we sat down as comrades and we discussed this issue. Comrades together with other members of the units from ...(intervention)

MR MAKANJEE: Just one thing. When you said patrols, what patrols are you referring to?

MR MOKHALI: I want to specifically mention Springbok Patrols and this is one of the security companies that was assisting the government to attack people in the townships. After reaching a decision, because my commander had been killed already and he had given me instructions before he died, he said I must command the people that would be working under me. He said I must stand on my feet and see to it that the community is protected. Not only the community but supporters of the ANC as well. After the instruction was taken out that we should go and capture Springbok Patrol, that was after we had noticed that somehow Springbok Patrols was connected to the government and the government was assisting the IFP with weapons, killing or attacking the people.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you speak a little slower so the interpreter can keep up please?

MR MOKHALI: Okay. After the suspension of Codesa II, because of the violence taking place in the township, the government of the National Party and its Police were assisting the IFP, supplying them with weapons, Springbok Patrols included in that. Now we had to stand on our feet, really. Now members of the ANC, we also had to look for weapons. We did not know who would supply us with weapons, we wanted the licence, really, to protect our communities in the townships. The government refused saying we were terrorists. Now we had to come up with plans as comrades in collaboration with the community to protect the same community that was being killed by the government and the security officers of these patrolling companies and I said to them in 1990 one Springbok officer was captured in Katlehong. He was boarding off from the Hippo trying to arrest the comrades and we then met and the decision was to go and arrest these Springbok officers. We were given orders to shoot them, kill them. I was the leader of the people who went out searching for the Springbok security officers.

MR MAKANJEE: Now the murders that you are applying for, the two gentlemen who you shot, were they Mr Moepeng and Mr Makarani? Would that be correct?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: What job did they do, Sir?

MR MOKHALI: I did not know exactly what their duty was but they were driving the Springbok vehicle but we had concluded that they were the Springbok officials that we wanted. The reason why we shot at them, it was because they contributed, assisting the killing of our people in the townships.

MR MAKANJEE: You were convicted for that incident, is that correct?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: And you were also convicted for the robbery of the motor vehicles that the victims were driving, is that correct?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: What was your sentence?

MR MOKHALI: I got the death sentence in September of 1994.

MR MAKANJEE: The vehicle, what was the purpose of taking the vehicle after you had shot the members of the security company?

MR MOKHALI: We were going to use this vehicle to smuggle weapons. We smuggled weapons from Maputo in Mozambique. We had a connection from that side. Now to transport these weapons we were using a spare tank. Now they were placed in a petrol tank. You'd remove the cap, put the weapons in the tank and return the cap. Now the general who was working in Maputo would drive the vehicle from Maputo into South Africa and upon crossing the border he would go back and then the South Africans would then take it.

MR MAKANJEE: So would it be correct to say that your taking the vehicle from the two gentlemen who were shot was in furtherance of your political objectives?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: That vehicle that you had used, how long did you have it in your possession for?

MR MOKHALI: It was not in our possession for a long time. We took the car in September on the 15th or the 14th and on the 19th October it was confiscated by the Hyper Square Police in Benoni.

MR MAKANJEE: Just getting back to the incident of the actual shooting of the two gentlemen, can you describe - I see that the widow of one of the victims is present, can you describe for the Panel exactly what occurred at the shop on that day?

MR MOKHALI: On the day of the incident I was in the forefront as the commander. I'd been given instructions already to command because my commander was dead. I said a Z88 9mm. I said to them "hands up". They wanted to produce their guns and I shot at them. I am here to ask for amnesty but I'm also here to ask for forgiveness from the widow. This was a political situation and that led to us being here. We were not ourselves, the situation was worse. People were being killed. If you had been to a night vigil in 1991 people were killed at that night vigil, even people from the Free State who had come to bury the deceased were killed and Rev. Tutu was also at that night vigil. Forty something people were killed. All these were done against the people of the ANC. Pregnant were killed. Old women were killed. Children were also killed and this really hurt us but I'm here to ask for forgiveness from the wife of the deceased. I am also asking for forgiveness on behalf of other comrades who did not get a chance to come here.

MR MAKANJEE: So in this incident were you accused along with other members of the Self Defence Units?

MR MOKHALI: Yes, I was accused with others and some of them were used as informers and yes, those were the ones we used to carry forward our needs.

MR MAKANJEE: With regard to the shooting itself, how many shots did you fire, do you recall?

MR MOKHALI: I still recall, I used 9 mm bullets.

MR MAKANJEE: Do you recall if other people, other comrades who were with you, were involved in the actual shooting of the victims?

MR MOKHALI: Yes, one of them had a 9 mm, his name was Elias Matari.

MR MAKANJEE: To the best of your knowledge do you know whether he has applied for amnesty for these killings?

MR MOKHALI: As comrades of the ANC we had certain rules to follow. If you were caught you were not supposed to point out other comrades. You had to take it as a man. Now I don't know what happened to them, I was sentenced to death and nobody came to me except an officer of the ANC.

MR MAKANJEE: Apart from smuggling arms, as you've stipulated to the Committee, with that vehicle that you robbed from the victims, did you use that vehicle for any other political activity?

MR MOKHALI: Yes, that is yet another reason why we used this car.

MR MAKANJEE: Could you explain it to us?

MR MOKHALI: We used this car to go to Zonkezizwe, that's where we took money. We were in short of weapons, now the money was going to be used to add to the weapons. We took a some of R89 000. If I'm not mistaken, R89 - R95 000. Now as I have given my explanation already, we had a contact and the other contact was from Lesotho. We did not use these vehicles with a South African registration and we had a registration number that we fitted on the car and we had a CB registration, were doing over the trails. This is quite a large amount of money and we were going to use it to get weapons like bombs. We wanted to fight the Police.

MR MAKANJEE: Who did you take this money from?

MR MOKHALI: We took the money from the TPA offices in Zonkezizwe.

MR MAKANJEE: Why from the TPA offices?

MR MOKHALI: TPA was working with the members of Inkatha. They said they did not require members of the ANC in the Zonkezizwe area because members of the ANC were influencing people. Now I can't remember the white man's surname, is it Van Dyk or Van Wyk, we saw him in the company of the members of the IFP. We then noticed that indeed the ANC is a target and it's not wanted. Now we concluded that the office should also be the target.

MR MAKANJEE: In your opinion would you say that the murder of Joshua Makawani and Reginald Moepeng was related to the robbery at the offices of the Transvaal Provincial Administration in Zonkezizwe?

MR MOKHALI: They are related.

MR MAKANJEE: In fact is it correct to say that the gun that was used at the time of the murder of the two gentlemen was the same gun that you used at the time of the robbery?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct, it's the same gun yes.

MR MAKANJEE: Were you convicted for that robbery?

MR MOKHALI: Yes I was arrested for that robbery.

MR MAKANJEE: And were you also convicted for the possession of an unlicensed firearm and ammunition?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: Do you recall what sentence you received for the robbery and the possession of the firearm and ammunition?

MR MOKHALI: For robbery it was eight years, for the firearm it was two years and for the possession of ammunition was six months, concurrently ten years.

MR MAKANJEE: Just for the purposes of the record, Mr Chairperson, the sentence is reflected on page 121 of the bundle, the last two paragraphs.


MR MAKANJEE: Now Mr Mokhali, in your amnesty application itself, you have only mentioned the two murders and the attempted murder and we now speak about robbery and the possession charges that occurred at Zonkezizwe. Can you explain why you haven't stipulated that in your amnesty application?

MR MOKHALI: I thought because I'd been sentenced to death all the incidents are connected. They have to be viewed together. The robbery case was also included in my sentence. I thought by just mentioning these two they will automatically be connected the robbery.

MR MAKANJEE: In fact when you were requested to provide further particulars did you make mention of the robbery as well, to the TRC?

MR MOKHALI: I gave the investigator all the statements and I am sure the robbery also appears in those statements.

MR MAKANJEE: So is it fair to assume that when you filled in this amnesty application form and you stipulated that you were applying for amnesty for two murders and attempted murder it was your intention to actually apply for other incidents as well?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: With regard to the robbery at the town council offices was anybody injured?

MR MOKHALI: Nobody got injured.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.


CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Makanjee.

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give me a minute Ms Makhubele?

Have we got a record of the request for further particulars?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I don't have it in my possession but I could enquire from the offices, they have the letter that we sent.

CHAIRPERSON: Can one pick up the date from the applicant's letter of our request? In other words was our request - his amnesty application seems to have been - it's a bit confusing, I'm not sure whose stamp is on page 1, 1996/04/03 and then on page 3 there's a stamp from Correctional Services 1996/06/07 but I would assume we would have received this in the second half of 1996?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I think the date of receipt would be the 3rd April 1996 and it may have been sent back for signature and attestation.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so there's no indication as to whether we have requested further particulars outside of the cut-off date ourselves?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson, I don't have that information with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just follow up on that score? Just see whether we had actually requested the further particulars within the cut-off date.

MS MTANGA: Yes alright, Chairperson, I will do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes Ms Makhubele, have you got any questions?


The victims present is Mrs Daza, the wife of Owen Teboga Daza and also Victor Zungu, he was working for the TPA.


MS MAKHUBELE: Mrs Thandi Irene Daza.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay and she's the wife of?

MS MAKHUBELE: She's the wife of Owen Teboga Daza.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what happened to Mr Daza?

MS MAKHUBELE: Mr Daza subsequently died in this incident he was injured.

CHAIRPERSON: In which one?

MS MAKHUBELE: In the incident of the 14th September 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the incident with the Springbok Patrol People? Is that the incident the applicant was talking about?

MS MAKHUBELE: That's the incident. Yes, he was with the two deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, he was with the two deceased?


CHAIRPERSON: But you say he died?

MS MAKHUBELE: He died in another incident unrelated to this.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, unrelated because there was an attempted murder in respect of him in that incident?



MS MAKHUBELE: And robbery.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so he died unrelated.


CHAIRPERSON: In 1993 and who else have you?

MS MAKHUBELE: It's Victor Zungu.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he present?

MS MAKHUBELE: Victor Zungu is present. He was working for the Transvaal Provincial Administration, that's the incident where, of the 5th October 1992, where an amount of R89 000 was taken from the TPA offices.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he injured in that incident or not?

MS MAKHUBELE: He was not injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he just the person in charge of the TPA's affairs?

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, his connection to this incident is that he was arrested with the robbers.


MS MAKHUBELE: Mr Zungu, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was arrested with the robbers?

MS MAKHUBELE: With the robbers.

CHAIRPERSON: But he had nothing to do with the incident or not?

MS MAKHUBELE: No, he was - apparently the case against him was withdrawn or something of that nature.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay so he was thought to be a perpetrator?


CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody else?

MS MAKHUBELE: That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Makhubele.

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Mokhali, in your application you only mention the two murders and attempted murder and you say nothing about the robbery of a motor vehicle?

MR MAKANJEE: Is that a question, Mr Chairperson?


CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you want to respond to what is put to you by Advocate Makhubele? She says that in your form, it's already been drawn to your attention by Mr Makanjee, but in your form here you only speak about the murders and the attempted murder. Now she asks if you can explain that. You don't talk about the car at all?

MR MOKHALI: I don't understand really. In the form attempted murder and two murders are appearing. I have mentioned already that when the circuit court sentenced me, I thought everything would be covered. I was not yet literate, somebody was writing on my behalf. But when I made and application, I made an application for all the cases.

MS MAKHUBELE: Okay, let's clear something about this motor vehicle. What kind of a motor vehicle was it?

MR MOKHALI: It was a Cressida vehicle.

MS MAKHUBELE: Do you know who it belonged to?

MR MOKHALI: I took it it was a Springbok's Cressida.

MS MAKHUBELE: Why do you say that? What made you believe it belonged to Springbok?

MR MOKHALI: Because they were at that time driving that car.

MS MAKHUBELE: Was it marked?

MR MOKHALI: It was not.

MS MAKHUBELE: Were they in some uniforms?

MR MOKHALI: We found a bag inside the vehicle written Springbok, it had gym clothes inside.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, before you found the bag, when you saw the car, it's not marked. Were they dressed in ...(intervention)

MR MOKHALI: The car did not have a mark.

MS MAKHUBELE: ...(inaudible) left in Springbok uniforms?

MR MOKHALI: I don't recall whether it was Springbok uniform but they were wearing green clothes. The driver was the only person who was not dressed in green.

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you. This incident occurred on the 14th September at Orange Farm, is it correct?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: The place where it occurred, do you recall?

MR MOKHALI: Extension 3, Orange Farm.

MS MAKHUBELE: In the street, somebody's house, a shop?

MR MOKHALI: The vehicle was in the street.

MS MAKHUBELE: Was it travelling? Parked?

MR MOKHALI: The vehicle was parked, they were seated inside.

MS MAKHUBELE: What were they doing?

MR MOKHALI: They were sitting.

MS MAKHUBELE: What time of the day was it?

MR MOKHALI: It could have been 10 o'clock in the morning.

MS MAKHUBELE: This Springbok Patrol that you're talking about, is it a Police, some Police Force or a private company, do you know?

MR MOKHALI: I do not know but I believe it could be a company working in different places or firms keeping guard as securities.

MS MAKHUBELE: You mentioned in your evidence-in-chief that they were helping the government to kill people?

MR MOKHALI: Exactly.

MS MAKHUBELE: Is there one incident or incidents that you would like to tell the Committee about?

MR MOKHALI: Regarding Springbok? In 1990, I do not recall the month, a member of the Springbok Patrols was captured in Katlehong in an area where the comrades were busy patrolling. They were getting off from the Hippo trying to arrest the comrades and the Hippo drove off and when he tried to run back to the Hippo the comrades captured him and they beheaded him and that's where we started noticing that Springbok worked hand in hand with the government.

MS MAKHUBELE: These Springbok Patrols, correct if I'm wrong, but are they kind of security companies that we see employed by private businesses to guard their businesses?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: Is it also correct, correct me if I'm wrong, is it also correct that during those times of violence in townships these ...(indistinct) or delivery vans from outside were afraid to enter townships?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: Is it also correct that in certain circumstances they will be accompanied by private security companies like these Springboks you are talking about?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: If you can tell us, what role would you say they were doing against your struggle if they assisted business people to protect their businesses against violence?

MR MOKHALI: It was not against but their mistake was to leave their actual duties of protecting business people and instead they assisted the government and the IFP. That's where all went wrong.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, take the example of the one that you say was beheaded. What had he done?

MR MOKHALI: His mistake, as I mentioned already that the Security Police was attacking the communities and the Springbok does not possess Hippos, it's only the police who have Hippos. Now it was very clear, if a member of the Springbok is among the Police, who are members of government, in other words the Springbok and the government are working together to form a third force and attack members of the ANC in the townships.

MS MAKHUBELE: You recall the evidence that was lead in your trial in this incident, the incident where two people were killed and the third one was injured? The one that you got a death sentence for?

MR MOKHALI: Vaguely I recall that evidence. In all the cases I did not agree to all the cases, I did not plead guilty to all the cases and I had reasons to do so.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, I appreciate that. The evidence led by one Pauline, Pauline Mogali. It's page 30 of the bundle. She said this incident occurred outside her Snoep Winkel which in township we say Spaza Shop, is this correct?

MR MOKHALI: I said the car was parked outside. I did not look in the Spaza Shop, I only concentrated on the target. I did not go there to check the shops.

MS MAKHUBELE: The Commission will hear evidence later to the effect that this Cressida vehicle was driven or in the position of the victim Owen, Owen Daza, whose wife is seated besides me, who was working for Delmas Milling Company or sometimes it's called Premier Milling Company and did not belong to Springbok Patrol. What do you say about it?

MR MOKHALI: At that time the car was driven by the Springbok Patrol whether it belonged to Daza or somebody else that was not of concern to me. It belonged to Springbok according to my observation.

MS MAKHUBELE: Evidence will further be led that Delmas Milling, like any other company at that time, due to the spate of robberies in townships they employed services of private security who accompanied delivery people or sales representatives into townships and Mr Daza was a sales representative who was on his normal duties of taking orders, collecting payments, he was not a security person harassing the community?

MR MOKHALI: That's why he was not shot at. It's because it was known. We had seen him also, that he was not wearing the Springbok uniform but these others were the targets. That is why it's written in this form "attempted murder". That attempted murder refers to him.

MS MAKHUBELE: Mrs Daza will tell the Committee that on the fateful morning she saw the two people who died, that's Mr Makawani and Mr Moepeng. Her husband took her to work in their company and they were not in any uniform of any sort. They were in their normal clothes, civilian clothes.

MR MOKHALI: Is that a question?

MS MAKHUBELE: I'm telling you that no one was dressed in a uniform of some sort. The two security - the two men, that is Mokawani and Moepeng were employed by a private security company to escort a sales representative who was doing his job when they were attacked?

MR MOKHALI: I saw green clothing on those men but I cannot tell what green it was.

MS MAKHUBELE: Were they inscribed, the clothing?

MR MOKHALI: May you repeat the question please ma'am?

MS MAKHUBELE: Was anything written on the clothes?

MR MOKHALI: When you target a person, you don't turn a person around trying to check whether there's any writing on their clothes, you just do the job and you want it done and yes.

MS MAKHUBELE: Any person in green clothes on that day will have been attacked by you?

MR MOKHALI: No, we were not going to attack anybody. We were going straight to those people. Had it been the intention to attack anybody we would have shot at the driver as well.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, you shot them because you knew that you wanted to disable them so that you could take the car from the driver as well as the money that he was having. That's why you had to shoot them?

MR MOKHALI: No, that's not so.

MS MAKHUBELE: When you shot them what were they doing?

MR MOKHALI: They tried to shoot.

MS MAKHUBELE: How many times did you shoot them?

MR MOKHALI: I mentioned already that I used 11 bullets.

MS MAKHUBELE: Do you remember the version you gave to court about this incident?

MR MOKHALI: I do not recall the version that I gave to the court, I refused that I knew anything of this incident and I told you already that I had reasons to say so.

MS MAKHUBELE: What were your reasons for lying to the court?

MR MOKHALI: Many ANC comrades were captured by the policemen and they were killed and I realised that telling the court the truth I would be putting the ANC in danger. I said no, let me rather take all the blame and stand trial alone.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you take the blame in your trial?

MR MOKHALI: I'm alone in this case.

MS MAKHUBELE: I mean in court, did you take the blame?

MR MOKHALI: I did not say to the court yes, I was involved, I am responsible, I just refused to mention other people knowing exactly that if I pinpoint out people those who gave us weapons from the other side would also be arrested and that was going to be - it was going to cause chaos.

MS MAKHUBELE: What did you take from the three people on the day in question?

MR MOKHALI: We took two firearms and two shotguns.

MS MAKHUBELE: And what else?

MR MOKHALI: And the vehicle.

MS MAKHUBELE: And what else?

MR MOKHALI: There's an amount of R2000 - R3000, somewhere around there.

MS MAKHUBELE: Who did you take it from?

MR MOKHALI: The money was in the cubby-hole, we did not take it from anybody and the cubby-hole was locked.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you discover the money?

MR MOKHALI: We noticed the money in the afternoon and when I opened the cubby-hole I saw the money. That was in the afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry Ms Makhubele?

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Chairperson.

I will now proceed to give you the version of events. Remember Mr Gaza did not die from this incident and as I told you earlier, his wife was with him in the morning so after the incident he discussed the matter with her. So now I just want to give you the version which she is going to tell the Committee. Do you understand?

MR MOKHALI: I understand. But during the incident there was no woman close. When we shot at these men there was no woman only three men.


CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I assume you will put the version that the widow would be testifying to if you were to give evidence?


CHAIRPERSON: In other words you would put to him whatever would be permissible evidence that she would be able to present to us?

MS MAKHUBELE: I understand it's as far the incident is concerned is hearsay but then only to the extent that it will show that this was the people he was in the company of were not politicians but they were all doing their duties.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it seems to be common cause that the people that were killed were engaged in the security sector, there doesn't seem to be any dispute about that and it seems as if insofar as Mrs Gaza was concerned she last saw her husband some time in the course of the morning and she was given a lift to her own work, it appears.


CHAIRPERSON: So it seems to be a fair comment on the part of the applicant she obviously wasn't involved in the actual incident itself.

MS MAKHUBELE: I will abandon that.


MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Mokhali, after you took the vehicle what did you do with it? Where did you take it to? Who did you report to?

MR MOKHALI: I'd explained already that the ANC comrades took a car. The commander and the person who is in command of the people who are involved in an incident, they are the ones who'd know what to do. We did not have any support and we only had to move forward with the struggle and that did not mean we were going to kill anybody. We had to look who the targets were, who was involved in the third force activities, who was supplying the other people with weapons to attack our community. We focused on that person. Before attacking such a kind of person we trace his movements, whether he has any connection with the government. That is why the white property was not travelling or living in the township.

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you for enlightening me but then my question - you, after taking the car, after robbing these people, after killing those that died and the one that was injured, who did you report to, where did you take the car and the two firearms, to report to say yes, again we have managed to get members of this notorious security company? Do you understand my question?

MR MOKHALI: I understand your question.

MS MAKHUBELE: Did you do that? Who did you report to?

MR MOKHALI: I said in the ANC we have what we call units. We were not soldiers, the MK was a military wing, they were elected people. If I'm the leader of the unit after the commander was killed, I have the authority as the member of the ANC to issue out orders and say listen, we have a target, I have those powers.

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes. By the way, you said the instructions were given by a person who - he gave you instructions before he died, is this correct? Your commander?

MR MOKHALI: Yes, before he was killed in Polla Park he told me to carry the struggle forward.

MS MAKHUBELE: To carry the struggle forward?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MS MAKHUBELE: This specific one, this specific robbery, the killing, did someone give you the authority?

MR MOKHALI: The commander did not say, he did not know. The commander did not know that we were going to be engaged in an activity. The commander has to identify our target and this we do as comrades all of us. We have to check first whether this person is working with the government, we have to check whether this person is in cahoots with any organisation fighting the ANC. That is why I'm saying to you that's how Springbok was identified. That's why the driver of the car was not shot at.

MS MAKHUBELE: So, Sir, after your commander died you were not reporting to any person, you were just on your own?

MR MOKHALI: We were not on our own. There were other comrades, many comrades that we reported to. We were not the only comrades.

MS MAKHUBELE: For the last five minutes I've been trying to get the name of a person from you. You're just giving me a lecture on all these things. I want a name of a person who gave you the instruction to go and do this specific incident.

MR MOKHALI: I think I explained. I said to you my commander was Comrade Madiba. I was his second-in-command. The other one was Comrade Nauza. Maybe I did not give you the names. Those people were shot and killed. Now as comrades of the ANC I was the second-in-command and I did not die. Now the commander is dead. Will you expect me to fold my arms and look and just stare at the community being killed? No, I had to take an action.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we should move away from there. You were second-in-command, the commander died, you took over command, now who did you report to in your capacity as the commander? Who did you report to, you said there were a number of people? I think that is what the Advocate is interested in.

MR MOKHALI: Comrade Maloyi in Vosloorus, we were reporting to him. Comrade Esau Ntempi and Comrade Eric Chikela, those are the comrades we knew.

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry. Were they superior to you within MK and the ANC structures?

MR MOKHALI: We were not MK, we were a Defence Unit in the township. I was in the unit, they were comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they superior to you in that structure, the Self Defence Unit structure?

MR MOKHALI: Not in the unit, I was at the top.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. No, I understand that. You took over but were they in the overall situation were they superior to you? They were your superiors in other words?

MR MOKHALI: I would say they were at the top of other comrades in the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Including yourself?

MR MOKHALI: Maybe I don't understand your question. Explain when you say they were senior. We have units and the units have commanders. Now the names that I've mentioned they were comrades who'd be involved as we engage in activities as the SDUs.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, yes. Now look, in your SDU you were the commander, right?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the activities of that SDU what was going on there, would you report to any number of these people that you mentioned here, Maloyi, etc. etc?

MR MOKHALI: Yes, they would know everything, they would even know that we now have firearms, the weapons have arrived, they knew our moves. We called all the comrades. The Committee meeting was held at Maloyi's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in other words your SDU reported to Maloyi and the others, that's all I want to know?

MR MOKHALI: It was not reporting to Maloyi. I'm saying we had units and the unit I was in and there was one commander and I'd be the second-in-command and we are in charge of the unit and its weapons. If there were any activities or if there were any war we should engage in, members of the unit would be involved, but we are all of us. This bigger meeting would be composed of units from other streets.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we've heard, I'll assure you, we've heard weeks and weeks and weeks of evidence about the Self Defence Units so don't worry, we know how the structure works. I want just a simple point out of you. I just want to hear from you, your SDU unit, who did they report to?

MR MOKHALI: There was a commander in the SDU and the second in charge. The street committee was above the SDU. Those were the people we were reporting to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's all I want to know, so you reported to the street committee, right? So they were the people that you reported to, is that correct?

MR MOKHALI: Yes, those were the next level from us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that makes sense. That's all I wanted to hear. You had something you wanted to ask?

ADV BOSMAN: I just want you to clarify something, Mr Mokhali, were you a member of the ANC?

MR MOKHALI: Yes I was.

ADV BOSMAN: Because what confuses me, if you look at page 1 of your application form, your lawyer will show it to you, page 1 of your application form. There you say you were just a supporter of the ANC. Can you explain that?

MR MOKHALI: I was not just a supporter. I had a membership card of the ANC and the Police at Orange Farm confiscated the card early in September or late in September. I was not a supporter of the ANC. I stand against that. At the time of filling this application I told my lawyer and I did not know how to write in 1986, I left school at Standard B. When I arrived at Leeukop, that's when I started furthering my studies. This is not my handwriting, I asked somebody to assist me with the filling of this form. That is why I did not see this. I had a membership card of the ANC. It was confiscated with my identity document by the Police at Orange Farm.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, can you remember who completed the form for you? Can you give us a name or tell us more about the person?

MR MOKHALI: When I arrived at Boksburg Prison from another prison we were given these forms. We arrived in October and these forms were issued out in March. I do not know the person who filled in this form. He was close to being released. So he filled in this form on my behalf and submitted it. That's why I did not even manage to give a statement. I was only able to give a statement when I was at Leeukop. I did all my standards in Leeukop. I'm now doing Standard 7.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, that's all I wanted to know was how it came about that it says you were an ANC supporter.

ADV SANDI: One question from me at this stage. Newausa and Madiba, who did they report to?

MR MOKHALI: Sir, may you repeat that question?

ADV SANDI: Who did Newausa and Madiba report to?

MR MOKHALI: They reported to the street committee, we were all in one unit. They reported to the street committee all what they did or what we all did together.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Makhubele?

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you. Thabo, Makari and Baloyi. Do you know these people?

MR MOKHALI: Thabo, I stated Elias Makari, Samuel Baloyi and Shadrack Mpeke.

MS MAKHUBELE: Are these the people you were with when the two deceased died and the motor vehicle was robbed from Tebogo Gaza?

MR MOKHALI: They were present.

MS MAKHUBELE: The incident where you took R89 000 from the TPA, in what way was that connected to the ANC struggle? Your struggle?

MR MOKHALI: If we had a shortage of weapons, wanting to get more, we are able to gather funds to get money. The money does not come to me to be spent, it's the money that would be used to buy weapons to protect the community in the townships, it doesn't matter which township it is. As long as the person belongs to the ANC and we hear a report that there's an attack in that area, the committee will sit and people will be sent out. That money will be used to further the aspirations of the organisation. I have never read anywhere where it was stated that the money was there for the ANC.

MS MAKHUBELE: Then this R89 000, what did you do with it?

MR MOKHALI: This money was going to be used to buy weapons. I was arrested before it could be used, I don't know what happened to that. We smuggled weapons from Maputo, we had a connection. There was a Brigadier in Maputo.

MS MAKHUBELE: Who did you give it to?

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, just a minute. Just listen to the questions very carefully and just respond to the question that's being asked of you otherwise we're going to take a long time to get a simple matter finished and you're going to repeat yourself over and over and over. It's not necessary, just respond to the question, alright? Let's try that now? Ms Makhubele?

MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you, who did you give this R89 000 to?

MR MOKHALI: The R89 000 bought weapons. It went to the street committees so that it could buy weapons.

MS MAKHUBELE: Who did you hand it over to. You came with it, you gave it to some person. Who did you give it to?

CHAIRPERSON: If you had physical possession of the money. Right, just explain. You want to know what his role was in disposing of the money?


CHAIRPERSON: Did you play any role in disposing of the money?

MR MOKHALI: No part, Sir, I did not take any part. If ever I took any part in the disposing of the money I would have been able to pay the lawyers, really, and I did not touch the money.


MS MAKHUBELE: Finally, Mr Mokhali, I just want to put it to you that the incident of the 14th September had nothing to do with the political situation there but you and your friends were just targeting businesses as the reason, which is the reason why businesses had to resort to private companies. But still you continued to target them and on the day in question you saw an opportunity to steal this vehicle from Mr Tebogo Gaza. I have nothing further for you.


CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree or disagree? That's all I want to know.

MR MOKHALI: I disagree.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Is that all Ms Makhubele?

MS MAKHUBELE: That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?


Mr Mokhali, I would like to know, you said you were reporting to the street committee. Can you give us the name of a person that you specifically reported to in that street committee?

MR MOKHALI: The person we reported to is Mr Ntembe, Comrade Ntembe.

MS MTANGA: And then you also say that the money that you obtained, an amount of R89 000 from the TPA, when you obtained the money who actually had the money. In whose possession was the money after you had robbed it?

MR MOKHALI: It was myself.

MS MTANGA: And after the robbery who did you hand it over to?

MR MOKHALI: The box was put in the car, I was driving the car.

MS MTANGA: And then what happened to the box?

MR MOKHALI: We threw the money box away. There was nothing to do with the box. It's a steel box.

MS MTANGA: What happened to the money?

MR MOKHALI: I repeat, the money that was taken was going to be used for buying weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but who did you give it to, that's the question. Don't worry about the box, leave the box, we're not interested in the box, the money. R89 000, who was it given to?

MR MOKHALI: The street committee was called. We showed them the money and we gave it to the street committee. We didn't give it to one person, we gave it to the street committee. We said this is the money to buy weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Were all the members of the street committee present and you left the money their care, is that what you're saying?

MR MOKHALI: Not the whole street committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, members of the street committee were present and you left the money in their care. Would that be accurate?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: How many members of the street committee did you hand over the money to?

MR MOKHALI: If I recall well two of the street committee members were present and then the leaders of the unit were also present.

MS MTANGA: Can you give us the names of these two street committee members that were present and if you recall their addresses as well, where did they live in Zonkezizwe?

MR MOKHALI: I don't recall Esau Mpempi’s address. I don't know what his address is.

MS MTANGA: And then who was the second person?

MR MOKHALI: The second one was Comrade Hlongwane. H-L-O-N-G-W-A-N-E.

ADV SANDI: Please give us full names of Hlongwane?

MR MOKHALI: This other one is Esau Mpempi. We did not use our full names. They just called me Comrade Mokhali and I only know him as Comrade Hlongwane.

CHAIRPERSON: There's a short answer, that you don't know Hlongwane's first name.


CHAIRPERSON: That's good enough. Yes Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: When did you hand over this money, did you hand it over on the day of the robbery or some few days afterwards, after the robbery?

MR MOKHALI: On the same day.

MS MTANGA: And when were you arrested?

MR MOKHALI: I was arrested on the 19th October 1992.

MS MTANGA: Do you know what did the street committee or how the street committee used that R89 000?

MR MOKHALI: I don't know what happened to the big portion, I don't know what happened afterwards. I never met my comrades after I was arrested. I did not mention them in the case, I don't know what happened to that money.

MS MTANGA: After you were arrested did your comrades support you during your trial? Was there any ANC person supporting you during your trial?

MR MOKHALI: After I was arrested I think one comrade from Katlehong came to see me. His name is Libusa, he is the only person who came, but just once.

MS MTANGA: The money that you had robbed you had given to the street committee members at Sebokeng, am I correct? is it Orange Farm or Sebokeng? At which place did you give this money to?

MR MOKHALI: The Everton street committee but the people who moved with us from Zonkezizwe knew this.

MS MTANGA: Will I be correct to say that not a single person from Everton that you handed over this R89 000 came to your assistance during your trial?

MR MOKHALI: Yes I agree. Had I agreed to the contents of the case maybe they would have been present in the court room but because I distanced myself I had to stand alone.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Mtanga, may I just come in? This person you've referred to as a comrade from Katlehong who came to see you in prison, did he or she know anything about the money? The 89 000?

MR MOKHALI: He did not know, when he arrived I was already at Modderbee. I had left Heidelberg Prison and I told him that there's money that we took and we wanted to use that money to buy weapons. He asked me where is the connection and I told him that there's a comrade that I know, that comrade has a connection in Mozambique.

ADV SANDI: Did he tell you why he had come to see you whilst you were in prison?

MR MOKHALI: Yes. I actually called him in. I told him, comrade I am arrested now.

ADV SANDI: Why did you not call the people to whom you had given the money?

MR MOKHALI: I do not even know their addresses. I tried to find out what their addresses are but I discovered that the other one had left Poppa Section where he lived.

ADV SANDI: Why did you call this particular person from Katlehong?

MR MOKHALI: He's a comrade I knew from Katlehong. We were working in the two areas, in Vosloorus and Katlehong.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Mtanga, about that.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

Was there an ANC branch in Everton?

MR MOKHALI: Yes there was an ANC branch.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell us people who participated in the ANC branch structures in Everton, who were they?

MR MOKHALI: Comrade Radebe is from Everton. Comrade Joseph Musia, he's from Everton.

MS MTANGA: Can you give us their first names if you're able to?

MR MOKHALI: I only know Joseph Musia by name, the others I only know the surnames.

MS MTANGA: What position was held by Radebe? What was his position?

MR MOKHALI: They were street committees.

MS MTANGA: No, I'm talking about the ANC branch. You said they participated in the structures of the ANC branch in Everton so I'm asking you what positions did they hold within the ANC?

MR MOKHALI: I'm saying they were members of the street committee and there were comrades who are members of the youth and there were commanders, those who are in charge of operations. We knew them as street committees at that time. I don't know how to categorise them now because I've been long in jail.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they all ANC structures?

MR MOKHALI: I would say so because we were all taking part in the struggle but I don't know whether they had cuts, ANC cuts like I had. We used to call each other comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: At the time you applied for amnesty or when you knew you were coming for your amnesty hearing did you try and contact any of these people to come and support your application?

MR MOKHALI: I did not manage to contact them, I applied for amnesty and an investigator came to me and I sent him to one of the comrades. I only learnt yesterday this time that I have to appear here. If you're in prison you don't have too much movement like a free person, you don't have phones, nothing, you see? So I did not manage to contact people to come here to support me.

MS MTANGA: If you had an opportunity would you have contacted?

MR MOKHALI: Everton North does not have telephones, I do not even have their addresses but there are comrades such as Comrade Maloyi, I have his telephone numbers. There's a certain comrade called Amos in Katlehong, I have his telephone numbers. There's Comrade Nkwankwa at Polla Park, I have his telephone numbers. Others, I do not have their contact numbers at all.

MS MTANGA: What is the contact number of Mr Maloyi?

MR MOKHALI: His home address is 403, Cherry Street, Vosloorus.

MS MTANGA: Coming to the incident of the 14th September 1992, can you tell the Committee when and how did you plan that operation? When did you think of carrying it out and how did you plan how you were going to go about it?

MR MOKHALI: After the Boipatong Massacre, Comrade Mandela suspended Codesa II. ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: No, don't give me the background, I want to know, on the 14th September you attacked those people and you killed two of them. How did you plan that particular operation? Don't give me the background to your activities, give me how did you identify those people and how did you plan it. When did you start thinking of attacking those people and how did you go about doing it?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm going to intervene, unfortunately. It could be a long answer. I wasn't aware of the time. We're going to take the luncheon adjournment and we'll reconvene at 2 o'clock.



CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokhali, you're reminded you're still under oath, do you understand?


MS MTANGA: (continues) Mr Mokhali, I asked you a question, when did you decide to attack the Springbok Patrol vehicle?

MR MOKHALI: The decision was taken in September.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell the Committee, if you ever carried out any reconnaissance on them and if so, what were the results of your reconnaissance?

MR MOKHALI: In the middle of August I left driving a Peugeot car, going to the offices at Springs. Just after driving past New Canada.

MS MTANGA: Then you said you went to the Springbok offices in August, what has that got to do with the incident that took place on the 14th September?

MR MOKHALI: Those are the offices of Springbok. I wanted to go and study the movements of their vehicles and because it was assisting members of the IFP who exactly resides on those premises because there was an area at the back of the Springbok offices and I saw people coming out of there and it became clear to me that there were people who are being used in that area.

MS MTANGA: And how did you identify this particular vehicle as a target?

MR MOKHALI: This was not the only target. There was yet another car but this one was identified at that time in Orange Farm. It left these offices of the Springbok, drive past Annandale into Orange Farm.

MS MTANGA: Are you saying you followed this vehicle from the Springbok Patrol offices to Orange Farm?

MR MOKHALI: No, I did not follow it. I went on the first day just to reconnoitre because Springbok was working together with the government and the IFP to hit the people. I investigated the matter as to confirm whether it was indeed so and after that we then followed the car.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mokhali, how did you link this vehicle to Springbok Patrols because it was a privately owned vehicle?

MR MOKHALI: I have mentioned that it was not the only vehicle. There were other vehicles as well. We didn't only want this vehicle. What we wanted, we wanted members of the Springbok and it had been decided that we will also confiscate that car and smuggle the weapons with that vehicle.

MS MTANGA: But Mr Mokhali, don't refer to the other vehicles. I want to know how did you identify this vehicle because it was a privately owned vehicle, it didn't belong to Springbok Patrols. It did not, so how did you identify it as a vehicle for your operation? It was not marked, it was a privately owned vehicle. How did you identify it for your operation? Don't tell me about other vehicles that you had in mind.

MR MOKHALI: I'm not saying - if I say it was not the only car, that doesn't mean I'm actually defecting from talking about this car, yes. But Springbok, the fact remains, assisted the government and the IFP. When I went to that site it was with the intention of reconnoitring that area. We attacked that car because we noticed it was carrying the security officers of Springbok.

ADV SANDI: Let's get this clear now, we can't go in circles, Mr Mokhali. Where and when did you see this Toyota Cressida for the first time?

MR MOKHALI: The first time I saw this it was at Orange Farm and I left Orange Farm for Springbok offices and I informed the comrades that there are Springbok officers who are assisting the government to attack members of the ANC. So ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: No please don't - try and keep your answers to questions short and simple. Don't keep on repeating and repeating yourself, we're going to take the whole day here. Was that on the 14th September?

MR MOKHALI: No it was not. On the 14th we attacked the car after having followed its movements and who the occupants of the car were.

ADV SANDI: How many times did you see this Toyota Cressida before you actually attacked the occupants inside?

MR MOKHALI: I saw it two times.

ADV SANDI: The first time was at where?

MR MOKHALI: It was driving from Extension 2, it was moving towards the direction of Extension 1.

ADV SANDI: But how many days before the day it was attacked?

MR MOKHALI: Not consecutive days, we could have seen it in the first week, the second week and on the third week it was attacked.

ADV SANDI: What was suspicious about this car, was anything suspicious?

MR MOKHALI: There was nothing suspicious about this vehicle, we had heard already that it was occupied by the Springbok security officials.

ADV SANDI: Where did you hear that from?

MR MOKHALI: There's a certain comrade who informed us. Some of the vehicles were driving in our township, Orange Farm, and this comrade informed me that there were others in Sebokeng and I said yes, the Springbok security officers are working in collaboration with the government, assisting the IFP with supplies of firearms so that comrades could be attacked in the townships.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.


CHAIRPERSON: Has the Panel any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mokhali, where was your ANC membership card issued?

MR MOKHALI: I was at Zonkezizwe.

ADV BOSMAN: And was there an ANC branch there, I take it?

MR MOKHALI: Yes there was a branch of the ANC.

ADV BOSMAN: And who was the chairperson of that ANC branch where you membership card was issued?

MR MOKHALI: It was Comrade Mzwandile. M-Z-W-A-N-D-I-L-E.

ADV BOSMAN: And then the firearm you had when you committed these offences, from whom did you obtain that?

MR MOKHALI: I obtained the firearm from Comrade - there's a certain comrade who was called Zadaam in Polla Park.

ADV BOSMAN: And when you left Polla Park didn't you have to give it back to him? You were now going to work in another area?

MR MOKHALI: It was contained in my explanation that we were given - this firearm was given to the unit of Zonkezizwe, we did not have our own firearms, we started having firearms after smuggling them.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, but what I'm asking you is when you left Zonkezizwe you went to Polla Park and then from there you went to Sebokeng. Now didn't you have to account for the firearm when you moved around from one area to another area?

MR MOKHALI: The firearm was given to the unit of Zonkezizwe. Polla Park had their own firearms, we did not have any firearms so they provided us with this firearm and the second firearm we got in Sebokeng.

ADV BOSMAN: From whom did you get the firearm in Sebokeng?

MR MOKHALI: It's Mr Esau Ntembe.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay and then you said that you found R2000 in the cubby-hole of the Cressida. What became of that money?

MR MOKHALI: We went to buy AK47 magazines. Each magazine costs R150.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you pay for it from the R2000, you personally?

MR MOKHALI: Yes we bought - one magazine was R150. We did not buy loose bullets, we bought bullets already in the magazines.

ADV BOSMAN: No, but when you say "we", who do you mean? Who are "we"?

MR MOKHALI: Myself and the comrades I've referred to. Comrade Maloyi from Vosloorus knows about this. Comrade Elias Matari also knows about this. These magazines were bought from Vosloorus Hostel. That was the dispatch area from Mozambique.

ADV BOSMAN: So did the street committee know about the fact that you'd gone to the street committee and said "I've got R2000 which is in this vehicle which we took and I am now going to buy magazines with it" or how did this happen?

MR MOKHALI: The street committee knew.

ADV BOSMAN: Alright, thank you.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairperson.

Did you know the occupants of the Toyota Cressida before this incident? Did you know them before?

MR MOKHALI: I did not know them before.

ADV SANDI: After the incident did you get to know who these people in fact were?

MR MOKHALI: The police officer who was in charge of the investigation did not tell me in detail, he only told me about the driver of the vehicle. He told me something about Tebogo, I cannot remember the surname. But those he shot he never said anything about them. I was only shown a photo of one person at the High Court.

ADV SANDI: The amount of R89 000 which you said you left with a group of people from a street committee, where exactly did you leave this money in the house? Was it on the floor, on the table, where exactly did you leave it?

MR MOKHALI: We were in Sebokeng and we put the money on the table. We said this is the money that we will use to buy the weapons to defend the community in the township.

ADV SANDI: Who put the money on the table?

MR MOKHALI: I took the money out of the vehicle and put it on the table. I parked the vehicle, got out of the vehicle, took the money, they followed me and I put it on the table.

ADV SANDI: Was that on the same day that you robbed the money?


ADV SANDI: Where did you meet? Whose house was this?

MR MOKHALI: It's the house belonging to Mr Mashaya in residentia Sebokeng. M-A-S-H-A-Y-A.

ADV SANDI: So when you came there who was there, when you came to this house of Mashaya?

MR MOKHALI: There was Elias Matari and it was Mashaya himself because we were using his house and it was Comrade Mpempi. There was also Comrade Baloyi.

ADV SANDI: When you came to Mr Mashaya's house was it immediately after you had robbed the money?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct. This was a stolen car so we went to his place because there was a shack outside where we could hide the weapons and even the vehicle. We just parked it there.

ADV SANDI: Whose idea was it that you should go to Mashaya’s house? Who suggested that?

MR MOKHALI: It's myself.

ADV SANDI: Why? Did they know that you were coming to bring this money there?

MR MOKHALI: Yes, I had requested him earlier on that we would like to use the shack on his premises. I requested him to avail that to us to use it for our purposes.

ADV SANDI: And that was before you went out to rob the money?

MR MOKHALI: That was before, yes.

ADV SANDI: Are you sure you did not take a single cent for yourself from this R89 000, nothing whatsoever?

MR MOKHALI: I don't understand. What do you mean when you say a cent? There is transportation. From the money we also had to pay something for the use of his house. Yes, for transport purposes we would take a few rands and run our errands but not to take this money as it is and put it on the table. There must be something put aside for transport.

ADV SANDI: When did you count the money and discover that it was R89 000?

MR MOKHALI: The money was packed in bundles. The allocation actually assisted us to notice it was R89 000.

ADV SANDI: As I understand you, you were sentenced to be hanged with your neck until you die, but still you're not prepared to reveal the names of other people who were involved with you and who you had given the money to, is that correct?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Why? Can you explain?

MR MOKHALI: If you are involved in the struggle and the Police capture you or arrest you, if there's nobody else arrested with you, you are on your own and you do not agree to whatever charges they lay against you, you disagree. I was in the court and I refused to take the blame of the case. That is why today I am here to tell you the truth, the truth that I'm telling you now.

ADV SANDI: Up to now you cannot say the money was in fact used for the purpose for which it was supposed to be used? Those people could have taken the money and used it for their own things, not so?

MR MOKHALI: I was quickly arrested. Why? It's because there was a person who knew me at Zonkezizwe. I had a shop and many people knew me, that's why I was arrested within a short period of time and the matter that I was sentenced to death for involved many people. It involved weapons, it involved money and I did not want anybody to be associated so I decided to keep quiet. Yes, the Zonkezizwe issue was a minor issue and I mentioned other people's names but this one, I decided to be all by myself and I thought to myself when I'm afforded an opportunity to appeal, I will tell the whole truth. This I'm doing now.

ADV SANDI: So you mean to say that you'd have kept quiet and get hanged to death even if those people had spent the money on their private affairs? It didn't make any difference to you, is that what you're saying?

MR MOKHALI: Instead of many people dying, really. Really, I had accepted the death sentence. It was not my intention to pinpoint others. I was dying for the commitment and I was arrested alone. It was not my responsibility to point, I had to die for what I believed for. If there was any chance of surviving, yes I was going to make use of that chance.

ADV SANDI: Have you made any attempt to contact anyone of the people to whom this money was given so that they can support that the money was used for the struggle? You were not on a frolic of your own? Have you made any such attempt?

MR MOKHALI: I called the ANC office in Zone 10 Sebokeng. I asked them to assist me to trace the comrades in that area. I phoned the comrades in Katlehong and Vosloorus. I got hold of them but I did not manage to get them to come here. I did not know my date of appearance. I only learnt yesterday at 1 o'clock that I am to appear before the TRC today and I did not prepare with any comrades to come here. I did not even call Shell House. We don't have enough time to call in prison. They told me "you are appearing before the TRC tomorrow", that's it.

ADV SANDI: You gave us the address of one of the people as number 403 Cherry Street, Vosloorus and you've been in prison since 1994. Did you ever write a letter to this person? I understand in prison you can write a letter to someone you want to communicate outside there? Did you ever write this person a letter to say look, I've applied for amnesty?

MR MOKHALI: He knows I have applied for amnesty. The person residing in Cherry Street. I phone him regularly. The thing is I could not get hold of him now because his phone is out of order, he makes use of his neighbours phone. I requested to make use of a phone yesterday in the prison and they afforded me only three minutes. Now if you are afforded three minutes to call a neighbour, the three minutes would be long over before he gets to the phone because he is quite an old man now. I thought I would phone this morning, I did not get a chance to do so.

ADV SANDI: As a member of a Self Defence Unit, were you aware of any code of conduct which you had to adhere to?

MR MOKHALI: I don't know whether there was any code of conduct for the period I've spent in jail but during those years yes, there was discipline in the organisation. We knew we had to be disciplined.

ADV SANDI: Are you aware of any document or documents that were circulated amongst SDU members to ensure that there would be some kind of code of discipline to which they would appear?

MR MOKHALI: I had never received documents of that kind.

ADV SANDI: Did you ever hear of the existence of such documents as a member of an SDU?

MR MOKHALI: I bear no knowledge of such a document. The only thing that I once laid my eyes on when I arrived at Leeukop Prison, it's an ANC booklet containing the information about the TRC from 1995 if I'm not mistaken and it's only just one book, it has it's owner so we are not free to read it but at times we do get a chance just to glimpse and get some information.

ADV SANDI: No, no, I'm talking about the time you were involved as a member of the SDUs, I'm not talking about the time when you go to jail. During the time you were a member of the SDU?

MR MOKHALI: There were no documents of that nature, we only received application forms but other documents and pamphlets were not present. During those years we were not called SDUs, we were called machine operators and the term changed and we were then called SDUs.

ADV SANDI: If I say to you for the sake of our lives, you won't know what I'm talking about? Would that mean anything to you? For the sake of our lives? Does that tick anything in your memory to you?

MR MOKHALI: For the sake of our lives?

ADV SANDI: I must tell you for your information that is a document that was circulated by the ANC amongst all SDU members throughout the country because the ANC, according to their testimony to the TRC, they were concerned that there had to be some discipline, there had to be a code of conduct for SDU members to adhere to here. You were a member of the SDUs, you don't know anything about this document with the title "For the Sake of our Lives?"

Okay, let's carry on to something else. Did you ever meet Mr Robert McBride? Sorry Mr Interpreter?

INTERPRETER: The interpreter was finishing the last question about having met Mr McBride.

ADV SANDI: Have you ever met Mr McBride?

MR MOKHALI: I have never met McBride. The last person I saw was Chris Hani. I only met Chris Hani, Comrade Chris Hani.

ADV SANDI: In what circumstances did you meet the late Mr Chris Hani?

MR MOKHALI: It was about the Boipatong Massacre.

ADV SANDI: Did you speak with him?

MR MOKHALI: No, I did not speak to him in person. It was quite a large number of comrades when he said we must attack kwaMadala Hostel and bring it down.

ADV SANDI: Do you know who was responsible to co-ordinate training for members of the SDUs in the Boipatong/Sebokeng and other surrounding areas?

MR MOKHALI: I do not know that person. I went to the training for shooting. Yes there was this place that was talked about that the MK were receiving training from but about the SDUs, really, I'm not aware of such a place. I had been to Sebokeng, I'd been to Sharpeville, I'd been to Boipatong, I'd been to Vosloorus but I have never heard of any person specifically who was involved for the co-ordination of training for SDUs. Before the SDUs were established we only had operators. These people were working with machine guns. They were not trained, they were just given firearms to defend the community.

ADV SANDI: So as it is now you were not aware of any involvement, someone like Mr Robert McBride could have had with the SDUs? You're not aware of anything to that effect, are you?

MR MOKHALI: No, I even recall that in 1990 we arrived at the offices of the ANC in 1990. They only told us about Comrade Dwini and Comrade Chris Hani. I don't recall anything about Comrade Robert McBride.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, you've answered me. Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Makanjee?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mokhali, I think the problem that the Committee is having is that we are uncertain whether you were acting in terms of a political motivation or whether it was an opportunistic robbery that you committed and now wish to get amnesty for. Can you assist us in any way in this regard?

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. Which one is it, Mr Makanjee? Which robbery because there are two matters. There's one that appeared from the original form that was filled in by somebody else with scant detail on which talks about the incident where two people were killed and a car was taken, a car was robbed and then there is the totally unrelated - and while I'm talking about that, that's the one he got the death penalty for, not so?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, the death penalty was for the killing of the two security guard members and the robbery of their vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, the vehicle. So for that incident he got the death penalty?

MR MAKANJEE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So that's one and there's a robbery involved of a car in that one and there's the further matter which is totally unrelated to this. He got ten years for that one, if I understand it correctly?

MR MAKANJEE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That is a robbery again of the TPA offices where the 89 000 odd rands were taken?

MR MAKANJEE: Just for the purposes of the record the robbery of the vehicle and the killing of the two security guards occurred on the 14th October 1992.


MR MAKANJEE: Oh sorry, 14th September 1992.


MR MAKANJEE: The robbery at the TPA offices occurred, if I'm not mistaken, it was on the 5th October 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Subsequent to the first one?


CHAIRPERSON: So they're totally unrelated to each other, those two things? He was charged ...(intervention)

MR MAKANJEE: Separate locations.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, on different occasions as well. So he was charged for the one, the first incident where the people got killed, he got the death penalty and then he was subsequently or separately charged in respect of the robbery of R89 000 and he got something like 10 years effective on that one?

MR MAKANJEE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So we're talking of two different things here and I think the one, the one in respect of TPA, the R89 000, and that is why I've asked Ms Mtanga to ascertain what is the date of request for further particulars from us because there might be a question whether or not that incident is properly before us, whether it was raised before the cut-off date or not. But of course, I mean, if our request only went out after the cut-off date then your client might very well have an easier case to persuade us to deal with that one. But against that background, if you talk about the robbery you must specify then which one is it, is it the money which is not strictly speaking before us yet but there were many questions asked about that, does if it is something is really before us and as if it is something that is linked to the one that is properly before us. So robbery is a bit misleading there, you must just specify which one is it.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Mokhali, with regard to the incident where you killed two people and you attempted to kill Mr Gaza and you stole the vehicle, can you tell us what makes this different from a hijacking that we experience in Johannesburg on a regular basis? What makes that robbery any different?

MR MOKHALI: They are different in the sense that we sat down and we planned. We said any security company assisting the previous regime and the IFP to attack the people in the township, such companies should be disarmed, if possible be shot at.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay, Mr Mokhali, if the gentlemen were security guards and they were not driving that vehicle, would you have killed them?

MR MOKHALI: As long as they were in cahoots with the government. If we wanted to disarm them and they want to fight back we were going to shoot at them. Not just ordinary people, only those who were assisting the government to harass our people in the townships. We were actually focusing on the attacks. We first looked at whether such a person took part in assisting the government.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay, Mr Mokhali, you made mention of the fact that it was an unmarked vehicle. I just want to clear up something. With regard to hit squads in the township and people sitting in cars, drive by shootings, were you familiar with that?

MR MOKHALI: I know such incidents.

MR MAKANJEE: Were any of those cars marked as being belonging to the Police or belonging to any security company?

MR MOKHALI: They were not marked except the fact that we had to follow such a car and trace its origin.

MR MAKANJEE: Was the community on the lookout for suspicious vehicles in the area at the time?

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just for my own clarity? I don't know, I might be wrong subject to a ruling by the Chairperson on this. Are you suggesting that he should now amplify his evidence?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, I'm just trying to explain his rationale for targeting an unmarked car.

ADV SANDI: My understanding of his evidence is that they were on the lookout for Springbok cars?

MR MAKANJEE: Yes, but the evidence - my client was examined on the fact that this car was an unmarked vehicle and why target it because it didn't really belong to Springbok Patrols which he admitted to having targeted.

ADV BOSMAN: He's been given ample opportunity to explain that, there were quite a number of questions posed to him in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, Mr Makanjee do you want to proceed with this line?

MR MAKANJEE: If it's possible to establish ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to allow you to proceed with that.

MR MAKANJEE: The reasoning behind it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, to my mind it does flow from what happened here.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And it is relevant to ...(intervention)

MR MAKANJEE: I will not dwell on the issue, I just want to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I want you please - take note, I want you to take every effort to put your client's case before us as fully as possible. I'm a bit disconcerted by the fact that your client was notified yesterday lunch-time only, that his case is before us today. I'm not sure what could have been done in that short period of time to do justice to him and please now take every opportunity to do that.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.


MR MAKANJEE: Mr Mokhali, I want to know if the community, was there a general awareness that the community should look out for strange vehicles in the area at that time?

MR MOKHALI: Yes, the community was to be aware at all times for any suspicious vehicle. Especially the vehicles driving at a very high speed with tinted windows or cars moving very slow.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Mokhali, I'm sorry, please just answer the question that I'm asking you.

What was the process after a member of the community said there is a suspicious vehicle in the neighbourhood? What would you do?

MR MOKHALI: The first thing, a suspicious car would be reported to the Police, trying to check whether the Police would take an action.

MR MAKANJEE: Assuming no action was taken, what would then happen?

MR MOKHALI: Such a vehicle would become a target of the community and the SDUs.

MR MAKANJEE: And as a result of being a target of the community and the SDUs, what would happen? What would actually happen?

MR MOKHALI: The comrades would raid for this vehicle and if this vehicle is found, after shooting at it, most of such cars would be burned.

MR MAKANJEE: Why didn't you burn the vehicle that you took after you killed the two gentlemen?

MR MOKHALI: We planned to attack these Springbok chaps. After killing them it was decided that we would take the vehicle to use it in furthering the struggle of our comrades in the township.

MR MAKANJEE: Sorry, can you bear with me one second, Mr Chairperson?

Would have mattered if the people that you killed didn't actually kill anybody themselves?

MR MOKHALI: Just being against the ANC and being against the comrades, whether you had killed or you had not killed but the fact that you are assisting the government, yes you were a target.

MR MAKANJEE: Now just to clarify the issue of the gun you had, you stated that it was given to you when you were in Zonkezizwe and it was given to the unit, is that correct?

MR MOKHALI: This firearm was given to our unit at Polla Park not Zonkezizwe. We left Zonkezizwe for Polla Park. Polla Park was patrolled day and night. Our unit was provided with that firearm because we did not have firearms of our own. After the death of the commander the firearm was forwarded to me and I had the responsibility of Madiba's firearm.

MR MAKANJEE: So when you left Polla Park for Sebokeng you didn't - were you not required to return that firearm?

MR MOKHALI: I had nobody to give that firearm to, I had to leave that area for another area. Now we were going to meet and make arrangements so there was nobody else to give this firearm to.

MR MAKANJEE: When did you start to read?

MR MOKHALI: Lately, when I was at the Maximum. I started schooling when I was in prison doing sub-standard B. In 1995 when I was transferred to Boksburg I started with schooling. I passed my Sub B, I went to Standard 3, I passed Standard 3, I moved on to Standard 4, I passed Standard 4, I did Form 1, I passed Form 1 and I did Standard 7, that's when I started reading and knowing how to read and write.

MR MAKANJEE: Now you also stated that you underwent some form of training on how to use a firearm, is that correct?

You attended some site where they were training people how to use firearms, is that correct?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: Who trained you, Sir?

MR MOKHALI: I was trained by a white man in Germiston in the old mining area.

MR MAKANJEE: What was his name?

MR MOKHALI: Oh, it's a long time ago, I've really forgotten his name. I don't remember his name. I mean in the area where I got my training.

MR MAKANJEE: Did you let people know that you were going to be attending today? You said you received late notification. Previously, did you let people know that you'd applied for amnesty?

MR MOKHALI: On the 12th July an investigator from the TRC arrived in prison, Leeukop Prison. He took a statement from me. After taking that statement I phoned Shell House, the legal resources department. I called the ...(indistinct), I called the comrades that - there was an investigator here, I am supposed to appear before the TRC but the thing is I don't know when, I've not been furnished with the date.

MR MAKANJEE: How many names did you provide to the investigation team in terms of people who could support your version?

MR MOKHALI: I gave him the names of the comrades who was working with me. Eric, Mpempi, Comrade Radebe, Elias Makari, Shadrack Mapecke, Samuel Baloyi, Comrade Maloyi from Vosloorus.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, with regard to the second incident, would I be allowed to lead evidence on that or would you suggest that we - I'm in the same difficulty in that I'm not sure what the request for further particulars stipulated or when it was dated. I seek the Chair's advice on this one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm going to ask your client. Mr Mokhali, how long before you wrote this letter or had this letter written to the TRC of 21st October or 14th October last year, how long before did you receive the request for particulars from the Truth Commission?

MR MOKHALI: I did not receive a letter from the TRC requesting further particulars regarding your amnesty application. I didn't receive anything. On the 12th it was my first time to meet the TRC investigator. I never received any letter afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that you had this document prepared, this letter of the 14th October last year?

MR MOKHALI: I applied for amnesty and after applying for amnesty Boksburg gave me the reference number. They said the TRC informed them that I qualify for amnesty. They didn't give me any paper. I just accepted that and I think late in 1996 or early 1997. The December of 1997 we were transferred from Boksburg Prison to Leeukop Maximum Prison and I tried to make a follow up regarding my application that I submitted on the 3rd April 1986 and the response was well, we're still busy with the application. I was not told to submit a full statement. And the second reply said "your application has been stopped". I don't know why, I was not given reasons why and that was the result of the letter. I tried to give an explanation as to what I was doing as a comrade during our struggle and I got a report from the TRC that my file was closed and I have to apply through the High Court. I did not know what to do then. I took this statement, I sent it to Comrade Thabo Mbeki, I sent the copy to the legal resources department to try and convert my sentence if I do not really qualify for amnesty, just to make it a normal sentence and afterwards a TRC investigator was sent to me. That was after I had sent this letter to the TRC in Cape Town, in Johannesburg and to the office of the President and to the legal resources department of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give me that date again, when did you see the TRC investigator?

MR MOKHALI: On the 12th July 2000.

CHAIRPERSON: This year only? Did you tell the investigator of all these other matters that you were involved in, that you spoke about here today?

MR MOKHALI: The investigator showed me this statement and the court records from Benoni. I told him yes, I know I made an application for amnesty. I told him I'm surprised already it's 2000 and the TRC's towards finishing its work and I haven't heard anything. I was really surprised to see him because I was told that my file had been closed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Makanjee, I'll allow you to proceed with let's call it the second incident. It was canvassed here in any case fully as if it's before us so you might as well deal with that too and we'll take submissions as to whether or not that is properly before us when we have completed all of the evidence.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if it pleases the Committee, I would like to bring something to the attention of the Committee? First I'd like to refer to what the applicant has just said now that he never received any letter from us requesting further particulars but he on his own sent us a letter in October last year and on page 5 of the affidavit that you have in the bundle, he does indicate so by saying that this is an extension to my application already submitted. So that time he was sending us further incidents on his own, adding to what he had already said, not responding to anything that was sent by us to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It looks as if there was never even a request for further particulars. It looks as if this is one of those matters where the file was closed in chambers and it might be as part of the audit that it was reopened as a hearable matter. So it doesn't look as if we did any investigation up to the time when the - at least when the applicant submitted this document to us in October last year. So that seems to be sort of common cause. But in any event we will consider this question with the merits of the matter eventually. So Mr Makanjee, perhaps you will just proceed and deal with that as fully as possible as well?

MR MAKANJEE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mokhali, with regard to the robbery of the R89 000, there again, how do you distinguish that from a typical robbery for purposes of obtaining money?

MR MOKHALI: This is a different robbery. Take a look at Zonkezizwe ...(intervention)

MR MAKANJEE: Sir, I am referring to the robbery at Zonkezizwe.

MR MOKHALI: I don't know how to explain this. This is not a question requiring a yes or no answer. I have to lay a foundation. Yes, it's not like any other robbery, if that's okay with you.


MR MOKHALI: The robbery occurred during the struggle. It was not myself and the other person, we had an agreement for sharing purposes, no. We took that money from the office that we were fighting against to buy weapons and protect ourselves.

MR MAKANJEE: How much money did the Police recover?

MR MOKHALI: I think they recovered quite a little amount of money. I don't - it's not even R10 000.

MR MAKANJEE: So are you saying - assuming it was R10 000, are you saying that for the community purchased firearms and ammunition to the value of approximately R70 000?

MR MOKHALI: This money was recovered on us. The money that was recovered was to purchase very small items, spare bullets, AK47 magazines, as I imagined. It was not the whole amount on us.

MR MAKANJEE: Just two more questions, Mr Mokhali. I'm just anxious to know why your co-accused in the robbery incident haven't applied for amnesty as well?

MR MOKHALI: I don't know. I was sentenced to death and all ties were cut loose. I don't know why, I don't want to speculate. They are outside, maybe they think they are clean. I'm in the mud and I'm the person who saw it necessary to make an application and I'm here to take this opportunity and ask for forgiveness from the families of those I killed.

MR MAKANJEE: Before you joined the ANC in 1988, I just want you for the Committee's sake just give them an idea of your background. Where were you working before that?

MR MOKHALI: I was a member of a union called MAWU. I was working at a firm called Mac Steel. I was the driver, driving these big trucks.

MR MAKANJEE: Were you active in the union movement?

MR MOKHALI: I was a member of the union. For instance I would take part in protesting against low salaries, hours, a member of the union, I was not the secretary, I did not hold any position, I was not a shop steward.

MR MAKANJEE: But it would be correct to say that you were politically active prior to joining the ANC?

MR MOKHALI: That is correct, I was politically active.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, is there anything else that the Committee would like me to address on this issue?

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think you must apply your mind to the application and satisfy yourself that you have really put everything before us that you could and what is of importance is that you should be satisfied that you have exhausted all the avenues in regard to possible corroboration of what has been said. It might be that you might have to take a bit more time to consider this application. We are sitting until Friday so in a sense we are in your hands. I mean you must know exactly what your client's situation is and what the case is and how much you have been able to do up till now.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, the difficulty is obviously that none of the applicants or potential witnesses are present.


MR MAKANJEE: But I'm not sure if we will be able to locate them.

CHAIRPERSON: I know. I know but I mean it's through no fault of the applicant. I don't want to repeat what I'd already said about the manner in which this matter came before us and that is why I'm not putting pressure on anybody in this matter. I'm prepared to bend over backwards even insofar as the rules, normal rules, are concerned until I'm satisfied that justice is done in the matter. So you will have to consider, you know, what else could be done in order to give your client a full opportunity to present his case to us.

MR MAKANJEE: Can I ask for a five minute adjournment to just discuss this with my client?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes I was about to suggest that.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you discuss that and see. We'll stand down briefly.



CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Makanjee, have you managed to reach a situation?

MR MAKANJEE: I've spoken to my colleague, the Evidence Leader, and we have agreed to request that this matter be stood down today pending the TRC investigators locating the people that my client has mentioned and hopefully we can resume on Friday morning. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Do you confirm that Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, I do confirm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and Ms Makhubele?

MS MAKHUBELE: No objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Well it appears to be in the interests of justice to let the matter stand down until Friday as requested to enable a further opportunity to the applicant to properly place his matter before us. These matters normally concern serious issues and more often than not grave consequences flow from finalisation of these matters.

Under those circumstances we will let the matter stand down until Friday when we will reconvene the matter in this venue. It will stand down until Friday. Does that take care of the roll for today, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. We will then adjourn and we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.30.