DATE: 24TH JULY 2000




CHAIRPERSON: What is the position today as regard hearings?

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. With regard to Mr Mfalapitsa, Mr Chairman, there appears to be a breakdown in communication in obtain his instructions as well as to having him here today. Arrangements were made at the inception of this hearing for him to be present today and there were interim arrangements made last week. I understand the TRC's witness protection people and Oupa, the person involved, actually went to Rustenburg to see him approximately two weeks ago, as well as last weekend and this weekend and I was under the impression that arrangements were made that he would be brought today, but I have spoken to Oupa who advises me that when he went over the weekend to Rustenburg to make the final arrangements to bring Mr Mfalapitsa, that he was not available and he could not see him, he could not make communications with him. Chairperson, the applicant does know that he was due to appear today and I have no explanation for his absence. I did try and contact the telephone number and spoke to a person who said that they were his sister and that they would pass the message on to him, however they would only be able to see him much later in the day, so then there's nothing further that I can add and I'm in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we have discussed this matter and the problem is that we do not regard it as proper that we should sit here for the rest of the week waiting to see if Mr Mfalapitsa condescends to arrive. If we knew that he was coming, certainly, on a later day, we would hear his application on that day, if arrangements had been made properly through you and I think we should place on record that your firm last week did make contact with the Leader of Evidence, did make arrangements and it is - no blame can be attached whatsoever to your firm, it is Mr Mfalapitsa who has apparently decided that he does not wish to appear before the Committee and in those circumstances it seems to me that the best we can do for him is to adjourn this matter and if he has not arrived by the end of the hearing, whenever that may be, today or tomorrow or later, then his matter will be struck off the role and if you could try to get that information passed on to him, we would be grateful to you, but we appreciate your difficulty there.

Does anyone else have anything to say regarding that? Right, so the matter stands down now till later in the roll.

MS MAKHUBELE: Sorry. If I may indicate the victim in this matter is present. I don't know what the position will be, should she stick around Pretoria because apparently she comes from East London. Should she stick around and if so, for how many days? Should she wait until the hearing...

CHAIRPERSON: Could she, without too much - is that the victim sitting next to you?


CHAIRPERSON: Could she, without too much inconvenience, remain here till tomorrow? By that time I think we will have reached a final decision because it just may be and I don't want to be unfair to anyone, we do know that there are travel situations that do arise and it may be that there is some legitimate reason why Mr Mfalapitsa is not here this morning. But if that is so, we would certainly have learned of it by tomorrow, so if the victim could possibly remain till tomorrow, we would be extremely grateful. What is her name?

MS MAKHUBELE: Themba Gasi.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she the next of kin?

MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, she's the sister to the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and we're obliged to her for having come here today as arranged, one of the few people who has done what they can to help and show the proper interest. Thank you and Mr Knight, you are excused, we do not expect you to sit around here and if we hear anything, we will notify you immediately.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. I will do my best to convey what has been decided to my client. Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you will advise us tomorrow morning early what the position is, whether he'll be here or not?

MR KNIGHT: Yes, I will, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the next matter?

MR MAPOMA: The next matter Chairperson, is that of L L Magajana, Amnesty Application 7399/97.

CHAIRPERSON: What number is it on your list?

MR MAPOMA: It's number 20 in my separate list.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And number E.

MR MAPOMA: And number E in the paginated bundle.





25 JULY 2000


MR MAPOMA: In that matter Chairperson, the applicant is present at the hearing. The victim is Mr David Mbatha from KwaZulu Natal. I have been advised Chairperson, that Mr Mbatha is travelling by bus from KwaZulu Natal to this hearing and he will most probably be arriving this evening, today, and that being the case Chairperson, it is my request that the matter be adjourned until tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the attitude of the applicant?

MR KOOPEDI: The applicant has no problem with waiting for the victim until tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Good. So the applicant is here today and he will be here tomorrow?

MR KOOPEDI: Yes, he will.

CHAIRPERSON: Right we'll adjourn this matter till tomorrow. 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.




MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, the next matter which I wish to call is that one of Rabotaki, on your list it's matter number 16 and on the paginated list, it's matter N.


MR KOOPEDI: I have been advised that the applicant is on his way here. However we also have a slight problem with the victim who will only be available tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say the applicant is on his way here, where is he coming from and why isn't he here at 9 o'clock for the hearing?

MR KOOPEDI: I have not spoken to the applicant Chairperson, so I have not been able to ask him those questions, but the person who is assisting with finding applicants phoned me to tell me that the applicant is on his way here, so I was ...

CHAIRPERSON: Where from?

MR KOOPEDI: From Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Good. He should be here ...

MR KOOPEDI: He should have been here by now, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But he may be here in the next few hours. You can get in touch with him. And what is the problem?

MS MAKHUBELE: The victim, Chairperson, was here last week, he was made to understand the matter will not proceed, but I've - it's Mr Pierie, I've managed to locate him again and he will be here tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: We're extremely obliged to you for having taken the trouble and the time to do that, thank you. So do we adjourn this one till tomorrow?

MR KOOPEDI: The next matter, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, so do we adjourn ...(indistinct - mike cut off) is that what you're applying for?

MR KOOPEDI: Yes. Yes I am, Chairperson.



25 JULY 2000


CHAIRPERSON: The next one is?

MR KOOPEDI: The next matter which I mention which is set down for today is that one of Mokoape, it is ...


MR KOOPEDI: Yes, matter number 11 on your list.


MR KOOPEDI: Yes, on the paginated list. Chairperson I will ask that this matter be stood down until tomorrow. My reasons are that I don't know if the applicant has returned. The applicant was not in the country. I firmly believe that he should have arrived in the country, but I also know that the victim is also not here, so I'll ask that this matter be stood down until tomorrow, by then we will know for certain whether he has come or not and we can take it from there.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, will the victims be here tomorrow?

MS MAKHUBELE: The victim can be here today if told so. I spoke to him yesterday and told him the matter is proceeding. He is on stand-by. I can call him to come, then he will come.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you get him here tomorrow?


CHAIRPERSON: Very well. So this matter shall also stand down till tomorrow.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson that has dealt with the list for the matters set down for today, but may I be permitted to mention two other matters?




MR KOOPEDI: The matter of Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Matter number 12 and J.

MR KOOPEDI: That's right. Chairperson, my instructions are to withdraw this application.

CHAIRPERSON: Has anybody got any objection to that?

MR MAPOMA: No objection Sir.


CHAIRPERSON: The matter is withdrawn.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.




MR KOOPEDI: The last matter I would ask to mention is matter number 22 on your list, that one of H T Gwabane, which is matter number R on the paginated bundle. My instructions are also to withdraw this matter, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: There was a victim listed in this matter. I take it the victim has no objection to the applicant withdrawing his application.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Sipo Bongani Ngema.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, that applicant has not been located. Actually this telephone number is the number which appears ...

CHAIRPERSON: It's not the applicant, you're talking about the victim.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I'm sorry Chairperson, the victim. I'm talking about Sipo Ngema, the victim. The number which appears here as 011 4021835 is the telephone number which he gave to the Human Rights Violations Committee when he gave a statement to the HRV Committee some time ago and all attempts have been made to locate him at that number, but unsuccessfully.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that when that number is contacted, they know nothing about Mr Ngema?

MR MAPOMA: I may not say as at this point what the response is actually, Chairperson, but all I was just advised that he can't be found at this number. I may have to find out what ...(indistinct)

JUDGE DE JAGER: But he won't be prejudiced if the matter is withdrawn because his rights wouldn't be affected, he could still claim if he wants to claim.

CHAIRPERSON: His rights are being preserved if the matter is withdrawn, aren't they?

MR MAPOMA; Yes, Chairperson, especially when he has given a statement to the Human Rights Violations Committee of the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, this matter is also withdrawn. I take it you will do all you can to make sure that Mr Makglasi and Mrs Kala and Rampomane are here tomorrow?

MR KOOPEDI: I may say Chairperson, that Mr Makglasi is in this hall, he has been here every day since Monday, Chairperson and Mr Twala, the same position, he is in this hall and has been here every day of the hearing since last week, Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But those are the ones where we have problems with the victims, or can we proceed with those?

MR KOOPEDI: No, we cannot proceed in that the first one, the matter of Makglasi Gakule and Dimasaliwa, this is where we have a problem with the victim who needs a postponement or who still needs to find a lawyer to represent her interest and the other one, the one of Twala and Rampomane, like I said, Twala is here, however the Committee might remember that we said last week that Rampomane is said to be in Botswana, he's on his way here. He should arrive in Pretoria this afternoon or this evening.

CHAIRPERSON: So that can be heard ...

MR KOOPEDI: Tomorrow Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And I would like to indicate and ask that notice be given to the victim that the matter has been adjourned till tomorrow and that any arrangements to contact an attorney must be made so that there can be an appearance on - is it a female or male victim? So that there can be an appearance on her behalf tomorrow morning, otherwise the matter will proceed.

MR KOOPEDI: Yes, Chairperson, I will certainly do that, I will contact her. ...(inaudible - mike not on)

JUDGE DE JAGER: I understood that Twala, that's matter H, is he present?

MR KOOPEDI; He is present, he is in the hall.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Can't we proceed with his evidence, perhaps finish his evidence?

MR KOOPEDI: You might recall Judge in chambers I mentioned that I might come back to you to say I'm withdrawing this matter, I'm not certain yet what the position is going to be. I still need to discuss the matter with the applicant and only then will I be able to say if we're proceeding with the matter or not.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You see, we're now rolling over all the matters until tomorrow and we've got nothing further to do today, so if perhaps we could get certainty on that one and hear his evidence and when his co-applicant turns up, or the matter could stand down and we could hear him then if we're proceeding, but he should decide whether he wants to proceed. If he's withdrawing, okay he's withdrawing, but if he wants to proceed we could at least use the time to hear him.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't want to get involved in an argument, but are you indicating that Mr Twala has not made up his mind what is he going to do and wants to discuss the matter with Mr Rampomane, before he comes to a decision or can you discuss it with Mr Twala now? We would happily give you a short adjournment and he can come to a decision as regards his application.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, from what I understood from this morning's consultation, we would need Mr Rampomane to also agree or assist us in coming to that decision of withdrawing. We will be consulting with him as soon as he arrives later today and we should then be in a position to say whether we're proceeding with the matter or we're throwing the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: You say arriving later today, have you any certainty as to when he would arrive?

MR KOOPEDI: We were only told this afternoon, Chairperson, so as soon as he arrives, I had assumed that by then one would be available for a consultation, but my impression was it would have been after the day's sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh. So there'll be no point in sitting at 2 o'clock this afternoon?

MR KOOPEDI: No, I wouldn't ask for that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. The matter of Twala and Rampomane will stand over - no sorry, it won't, it will not be put on today's list as it is already on tomorrow's list.

MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so, it has been set down for tomorrow Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude the day's hearing?

MR MAPOMA: By the look of things, yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we expressed our views fairly strongly last week and I must say there does not appear to have been much change. Another day wasted, another day in which the State is put to expense, let us hope that everything can be arranged so we can get cracking on matters tomorrow.

We now adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.