CHAIRPERSON: I would like to comment on a matter that has been brought to my attention, that is an article which apparently appeared in the Sowetan yesterday. The headline of which reads:

"Informers to be named - TRC"

As anyone who has listened to what went on at the hearing would know, no such ruling has been made. In fact the Amnesty Committee has in the past ruled against the naming of informers as such. What did take place here was a discussion as to what the persons, whether the persons referred to in the evidence should be named or not, in that they played a more active part than informers did, legal arguments heard and then we then reserved on the question. We did however, indicate that we thought it desirable that the persons who might be named should be informed of the fact so that if they wished to make representations through lawyers or on their own behalf, they could do so and it was in this connection that we asked Mr Visser to ask Mr Botha to make contact with them, which he apparently could, to inform them of this. To make sure that the information was as accurate as possible, we requested his attorney, Mr Wagenaar, to in fact undertake to inform the persons concerned of precisely what the legal position was and he indicated, very properly in our view, that he would advise them, that in the event of their wishing to obtain the services of an independent lawyer arrangements could be made and the matter has gone no further, there has been no ruling made, nor as far as I am aware, any indication that such a ruling is going to be made, that the persons concerned in this hearing should be named. It was a matter that we have to consider and decide on in the light of the legal argument advanced to us as well as in applying the question of public interest because enquiries of this nature are somewhat different from ordinary trials and it may well be that different tests are applied. That is a matter which will have to be considered and it is totally wrong to say that any ruling has been made that the informers will be named at the present time.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, Visser on record. Mr Chairman, while we're on the subject, if I may be permitted to give you a feedback on what had happened? Mr Botha has made contact with one of the informers telephonically. He has expressed his intention not to cooperate, not to enter the arena quite vehemently Mr Chairman. In fact he feels that he's been sold out having listened to radio reports and having read the press. Mr Botha has asked me to tell you that he is keeping the discussion alive or he is attempting to do so. He is still trying to lay on a meeting. It is clear that the person is not interested in having Mr Wagenaar present, so Mr Wagenaar won't attend that meeting. A tentative arrangement has been made about two weeks hence. Once that happens or if it doesn't happen, we will certainly inform you. At the present time, the status is Mr Chairman, that if one of the two is going to be unwilling to participate in the proceedings, it is reasonably obvious that both of them won't, but he hasn't contacted the other person.

CHAIRPERSON: From what you say, Mr Visser, I understand and correct me if I'm wrong, that this person in fact knew of the proceedings of the fact that his participation had been mentioned although his name had not been mentioned. It's a matter that you raised yesterday and I said there was no evidence before us that they were in a position to have known but it seems that you were correct in that, that they did know.

MR VISSER: Quite correct, Mr Chairman, I'm sorry this person is very, this one person is fully aware and he is following the proceedings, yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want you to - I'm not trying to get you to indicate anything, information that will identify this person, but do I understand that if he wished to engage the services of a lawyer, he would be able to do so himself?

MR VISSER: Yes certainly, Mr Chairman, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll await any further information and let Mr Botha go ahead with the meeting.

MR VISSER: That's the intention Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, the other outstanding matter is the issue concerning Mr Bhila. I did not accompany the persons who went out yesterday to search for the spot. Mr Ngubane however did and perhaps he's in a better position to tell you whether he believes that a genuine attempt was made and what had transpired.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Indeed we did go to Umbumbulu area in an attempt to find out whether Mr Wasserman would be in a position to point out the spot where Mr Bhila was eliminated. Unfortunately, we had a lot of difficulty, Mr Wasserman couldn't even remember the turn off which they took to a spot but we then enquired from various people, local people as to the places where cliffs could be found and Mr Wasserman's attitude was that maybe if he was taken to a certain cliff, he would be able to recollect that that was the proper cliff where Mr Bhila was thrown. Mr Wasserman was cooperative, we did visit various cliffs but he was definite that those that we visited were definitely not the cliffs where Mr Bhila was eliminated and he mentions specifically the fact that where they eliminated Mr Bhila and threw him into a cliff, they didn't have to walk to the cliff, they just parked the car next to the cliff and all the cliffs that we visited, we had to take a walk of about 20 paces or so and it was his feeling that if he could be given about two weeks, maybe he could be in a position to point out the cliff. The amount of time which we had was not enough to visit all the cliffs and probably the TRC investigators will pursue the matter and take him to whichever cliff in an attempt to see whether he can be able to identify the cliff. With all due credit to him, we were satisfied that his attempt to identify the cliff was a genuine attempt. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I have already made requests that steps should be taken to get further assistance to discover the spot by talking to the local police and others and any other possible witnesses who may have been there at the time. In position to Mr Wasserman, we're obliged to him for his assistance and trust that he will continue. I've read in the local newspaper or one of the local newspapers that he said that given two weeks he might be able to do something. We hope we can keep that up because it is I think important for the family and I hope we can do something to assist them but while I had been listening, it's also struck me and least I forget, can I ask our investigator now to when talking to the other sources of information, there are to my knowledge available very detailed large scaled contour maps of this province and it may be that if somebody with a knowledge of map reading sits down and looks at them and uses the information Mr Ngubane mentioned, that at this place the road appears to go right up to the edge of the cliff, he may be able to get some further lead from those sources. So I think we can leave the matter, it's the best we can do at the moment, that enquiries will continue to be made. We will seek assistance of, as I said, possible witnesses and of the local authorities and when I say local authorities, I mean not only the police but people like the conservation authorities and others who may have a knowledge of the local geographical conditions there and know places that are likely to fit the description we've been given and I hope that we can discover it. If so, if we do, we will be told and we will take immediate steps to notify the family. Thank you, is there any ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: Just one aspect concerning yesterday's inspection Mr Chairman, and that is - I just thought that it's as well that you know. My attorney tells me that the area seems to be littered with places that would fit the description so, you know. Other than that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think we must get someone with local knowledge.

MR VISSER: Other than that, I have nothing further to add. Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman, Mr Wasserman yesterday indicated, that's a point I forgot to mention, that if it could be established where the home of Mr Lembedi was. Maybe that can assist because probably the cliff is closer to Mr Lembedi's home. That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: That is one of the matters we had discussed this morning, enquiries in that regard could be made.

Well then gentlemen, it seems that we will now adjourn. We would welcome written argument, but I don't know, indicate to me whether you would prefer to wait before presenting your argument until we have received any further information and given a decision. I don't think any decision as to the naming or otherwise of these two people would effect credibility in any way or effect the basic argument so I would think it would probably be better to proceed but preserve your right to amplify or amend.

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: I concur, yes.

ADV. PRIOR: I do agree, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You will then hear from us when we will notify you with - we've heard finally from Mr Botha whether we have had any other information in regard to the finding of the body and then you can let us have your arguments. Thank you.

And thank you all for your assistance during this hearing which has made the task easier for us and we're obliged to you and I hope that when we have the continued hearing which we're going to have some time that we see you there again, Mr Ngubane.

MR VISSER: Shouldn't you say Merry Christmas, Mr Chairman?