DAY: 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: ... this hearing on Monday, the 19th of October, the applications of Dumisani Tokizani Sibisi and Neni Bongani Cele.

ADV PRIOR: On behalf of the Amnesty Committee, Paddy Prior, the Evidence Leader. Mr Raymond Samuel appears for the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: I must also say that the Committee consists of myself, Andrew Wilson and Judges Potgieter and Khampepe.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, unfortunately the matter cannot proceed today. The problem arose in notifying the applicants. I understand that notice was sent to the prison where they were serving a sentence, only to find that they had been released on parole.

I understand from Mr Sadar Govender with the Witness Protection, that Mr Sibisi had been informed on Thursday of the hearing today and had been requested to contacted Mr Samuel, the attorney that had been arranged for him. Unfortunately Mr Sibisi hasn't made that contact, yet I understand from this morning's conversation with Mr Govender is that Mr Sibisi had been told the hearing would be in Pinetown so ...

CHAIRPERSON: One can't blame Mr Sibisi for not being here this morning and Mr Cele hasn't been told at all about the application as far as we know. When were they released on parole, do you know?

ADV PRIOR: It's unclear. I understand that at least two to three weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think this is a - we suffered last week in all the applications that were supposed to be heard because notice had been given properly and there were people who had been transferred from Westville Prison and I think that steps must be taken to ensure that our office in Cape Town, the administrative, the people responsible for the administration do take proper steps to ensure that applicants are contacted and informed well in advance.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I'll certainly bear that in mind and obviously it will be taken up at the highest level.

May I suggest that the matter be adjourned for a date this week. We were attempting as of today to send people out to the rural areas to try and at least make contact with the applicants. In that event we will then attempt to hear the matter this week.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we have had another matter that has been adjourned till Wednesday of this week. We on Thursday are starting a part-heard matter which we hope to conclude on Thursday because one of the Committee Members will not be available on Friday, so perhaps Friday will be the most convenient day to adjourn this matter to.

Another thing that worries me, Mr Prior, and I know that you are at a disadvantage at the moment because you haven't got your papers with you, that we are sitting in a large hall that was once a theatre and there is not a single person here.

Now the matter we were due to hear was a matter in which two people were murdered and there was an attempt to murder six others, and I would have thought that there would have been families and interested parties who would have wanted to hear. It may be that notice was given to them to go to Pinetown. Could you, if you can when you get your documents, make every endeavour to ensure that possibly interested parties, I don't mean interested parties in the legal sense but parties who might wish to hear what happened are notified that it will be heard on Friday?

ADV PRIOR: I will see that that is done, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that concludes today?

ADV PRIOR: That concludes today, M Chairman.







DAY: 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: ... Jeke, Bheki Alfius Nzama, Andreas Sibokwake Sithole. The Committee consists of myself, Andrew Wilson and Judges, Potgieter and Khampepe.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee, Advocate P C Prior and for the applicants, Mr Siven Samuel.

If he could just maybe just identity his voice on record for purposes of the transcription.

MR SAMUEL: For the applicants, Siven Samuel.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, Mr Prior, what is the position? Have the victims and interested parties been notified?

ADV PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, I do have notices, Form 2 notices that were delivered by hand I understand from our Investigation Unit, on the Matelani family and the Ngobo family. Unfortunately they have not yet arrived. I don't know what the reason for that is but there was service. The actual return of service is being faxed to us from the Pinetown office this morning.

Mr Chairman, may I place on record that in respect of Mr Lubuza, one of the next of kin, the address that he gave:

601 Demat, Marion Hill

The owner of the property was contacted, in fact was visited and he doesn't know Mr Lubuzo. There is no further address for Mr Lubuzo. There were two implicated persons, one, Mr Themba Mthethwa and one, Mr Fezekile Mabida. Unfortunately their addresses were given as:

Bottlebrush Shack Settlement

Unfortunately, Mr Chairman, no better address could be found and no-one knew them at that settlement. The events occurred almost five years ago.

So I do have those notices with me. Other than that we are ready to proceed. As far as the applicants are concerned, Mr Samuel I understand is accepting the bundle that we put up, especially the judgment of His Lordship, Mr Justice Nicholson. And depending on the attitude of the Committee, I would ask that the bundle be marked A.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree, Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears to me that this is one of the unusual cases perhaps, where the judgment accords with the application and deals with most of the facts that come before us. Right, carry on with your applications.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you M'Lord. Is the applicant to be sworn in M'Lord?

CHAIRPERSON: Which one is it?

MR SAMUEL: I call Jackson Alfius Jeke, M'Lord.

ADV POTGIETER: Are your full names, Alfius Jackson Jeke?

MR MANYAMALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

ALFIUS JACKSON JEKE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY SAMUEL: Mr Jeke, did you send an affidavit to the TRC Amnesty Committee asking for amnesty, arising out of the ...[intervention]

MR JEKE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: ...the criminal trial that you were an accused and convicted person of?

MR JEKE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Now do you confirm the contents of your affidavit that you submitted to the TRC?

MR JEKE: Yes, I do confirm.

MR SAMUEL: Now briefly, Mr Jeke, were you affiliated to any political organisation during the time of the killing?

MR JEKE: That's correct.

MR SAMUEL: Which organisation was this?


MR SAMUEL: What position did you hold with the ANC?

MR JEKE: I was a Deputy Chairperson of the branch.

MR SAMUEL: Which branch was this?

MR JEKE: Madiba branch.

MR SAMUEL: Which area did Madiba branch hold jurisdiction over?

MR JEKE: In the informal settlements just close to Chatsworth.

MR SAMUEL: What was this informal settlement called?

MR JEKE: It's Madiba.

MR SAMUEL: Is it also known as the Bottlebrush Settlement?

MR JEKE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Now there were problems in the bottlebrush settlement between the residents and some criminals, is that correct?

MR JEKE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Can you tell us briefly about the problems and what steps were taken by the community?

MR JEKE: The problems that we encountered were some groups who called themselves the "Mafia". They were terrorising the community, raping, robbing, armed robbery as well as housebreaking and any other related offences.

As members of the community we formed a Peace Committee as well as a Development Committee in order to develop the area that we lived in and to unite the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this an ANC backed committee, were these ANC backed committees?

MR JEKE: Yes, all that we did was supported by the ANC.

MR SAMUEL: For the record, Mr Jeke, can you tell us did any other political party operate in the Bottlebrush Shacks Settlement, or the informal settlement?

MR JEKE: No, it was an ANC stronghold.

MR SAMUEL: Were there any other methods explored in dealing with the criminal element, like seeking the assistance of the police and what if - answer that question first.

MR JEKE: Yes, that is what we did at first but we always had problems with the police who were not very co-operative.

MR SAMUEL: Did the police investigate any activities of "The Mafia" in the area?

MR JEKE: The police dragged their feet with regard to the investigation of such matters. They didn't even want to venture into the area in order to take statements or try to quell the violence that was going on within the area.

MS KHAMPEPE: May I interpose, Mr Samuel?

In the testimony that you've just given you pointed out that there were problems that you came across with the police as the members of the ANC, could you please tell us what these problems were that you encountered with regard to the police in asking assistance as members of the African National Congress?

MR JEKE: As members of the African National Congress, when we go to the police and liaise with them and ask for help, being sent by the community or members of the community, firstly they never used to believe what we told them or they simply adopted a don't care attitude and as a result we went to ask for a certain person in authority, to tell him about the problems that we were encountering as far as the police were concerned.

MS KHAMPEPE: Even that didn't help?

MR JEKE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: The area in which Bottlebrush was formed, what race of people lived in that area generally or predominantly?

MR JEKE: That was an Indian area or an Indian place but mainly there were people from different spheres of the community.

MR SAMUEL: And the police station, what race of policemen were at the Chatsworth Police Station?

MR JEKE: They were Indian policemen.

MR SAMUEL: Were they - did you get the impression that they were willing to assist the informal settlement or did you get the impression that they were unwilling to assist?

MR JEKE: The evidence points to the fact that they just did not care and they did not want to assist us in any way whatsoever.

MR SAMUEL: Tell us about the Development Committee that was formed, did they in any way come into confrontation with "The Mafia" group?

MR JEKE: Yes, the committee is the one that encountered the most problems and as a result members of the community were killed. That I know of there are three who died and the fourth one survived.

MR SAMUEL: Did anyone acknowledge responsibility for the killing?

MR JEKE: Yes, that is correct, there is somebody who acknowledged or claimed responsibility for the killings and especially when he was drunk he would tell people around him about the atrocity.

MR SAMUEL: Who is that person?

MR JEKE: His name is Mtogozisi Ntalane.

MR SAMUEL: Are you referring to the deceased on Count 2 in the criminal trial?

MR JEKE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Now on the morning of the 26th of December 1993, were you in the Bottlebrush Settlement area?

MR JEKE: That is correct, I was there.

MR SAMUEL: Can you briefly tell us what transpired.

MR JEKE: There were members of the community who came to my place, they said they had a problem that they wanted to discuss with me, that there had been some girls who had been abducted the previous night or the previous day and there was no trace of the girls who had been abducted.

They requested that I help them as a Deputy Chairperson of the branch because the Chairperson was not present at that time, it was during the holidays. They wanted us to go looking for the abducted girls. I joined them in their search. We went around looking

for the girls who had been abducted.

We ultimately were able to trace the abducted girls at a certain house. That is Sipho's house, who is the leader of this particular group. That is where we got the abducted girls. We also found members of "The Mafia" within Sipho's household.

When we got there there were people already, I think members of the community. The girls explained and related as to how they reached the place because when we got there we found that the girls were naked, as well as members of "The Mafia" were naked. We received an explanation that they had been raped by the members of "The Mafia". They were raped throughout the night. That is where the community took a decision that these people should be killed because there was nothing that the police were doing and they were conducting a reign of terror in the area.

MR SAMUEL: These people were killed and subsequently the police made a few arrests, is that correct?

MR JEKE: Yes, that is when they started arresting people.

MR SAMUEL: The three of you were not arrested initially?

MR JEKE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: What did the community do after certain people were arrested and taken to the police station?

MR JEKE: The community came together and marched to the police station. When we arrived at the police station we were requested that we elect or choose a leader who was going to represent us. The attorney, Lina Zama was also present because the community wanted to explain as to how these men died and why were they killed.

The community wanted to take responsibility for the killing and they wanted to explain to the Commissioner of Police as to how it happened. That is when a committee was formed, that is a committee with which we were going to liaise.

As soon as we had related the story of the killing, as to how "The Mafia" gang was killed, the Commissioner of Police said he does not have the authority or the power to arrest all the people and he did not have a place to put the whole group in.

MR SAMUEL: I see. Arising of what you're saying, did the community say to the Commissioner of Police that he must arrest the entire community and put them in the cells?

MR JEKE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Now the other two applicants with you, Mr Nzama and Mr Sithole, were they members of the ANC as well?

MR JEKE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: As I understand it you accept the Judgment and you accept responsibility for the killings.

MR JEKE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: And your amnesty is based on the fact that you were forced to take governance, take control and governance of the area that you lived in, and this was before 1994?

MR JEKE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: I have no further questions.


CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR: Just two or three matters, Mr Chairman.

I noticed in the summary of substantial facts, the State during your trial alleged in paragraph 4 that the deceased in this matter had been approached by the accused and a crowd numbering between 50 and 100 of the community, is that correct?

MR JEKE: Yes, it could be, it's possible that there were about 50 to 100, that is correct.

ADV PRIOR: So when you were looking for these abducted girls that had been raped by "The Mafia", it seemed to my mind when reading the Judgment and the summary of facts that it was as if the community was also looking for these girls as a group and it wasn't just the few of you that had been elected, it was the community that was searching, is that correct?

MR JEKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: There was just one other aspect, Mr Jeke. At page 65 of the bundle, Mr Chairman.

It seemed that Mrs Matelani's child, the deceased, had escaped from police custody at some stage, do you know about that?

MR JEKE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRIOR: One last aspect. After this killing, are you able to tell the Committee what happened to the crime rate or the reign of terror of "The Mafia" gang in Bottlebrush Settlement? Did that continue or did that come to an end?

MR JEKE: There was a relative decrease of violence after the arrest.

ADV PRIOR: And "The Mafia" gang in particular, was that broken up as a result of the deaths of those members?

MR JEKE: Yes, that correct, there was a break-up of "The Mafia" gang, and the violence decreased.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.


CHAIRPERSON: Could I, before the other two, just ask you some questions? As I understand from the Judgment, the Bottlebrush area was dominated by the ANC and was divided into wards or various districts that were administered to some extent by the ANC.

MR JEKE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The ANC was endeavouring to provide some assistance and government to the community?

MR JEKE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand from both the Judgment and your evidence, members of the community who got no assistance from the police would come to the ANC committees and ask them for help.

MR JEKE: Yes, some would come to us but some would go to the Development Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you would try to help them?

MR JEKE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And there was evidence led that you had taken steps to try to control "The Mafia" by on occasion beating them.

MR JEKE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: By complaining to their parents and asking their parents to do something about it.

MR JEKE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And by exiling or banishing them from the area.

MR JEKE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And none of this had controlled them.

MR JEKE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were finally driven to use violence as you did, to try to bring about peace for the members of the community in your area.

MR JEKE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That is that the ANC felt responsibility for the people.

MR JEKE: That is correct.


MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Jeke, I've got just a few questions. According to your knowledge I can see in your application that you were borne in Mount Frere, that is in the Transkei?

MR JEKE: That is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: According to your knowledge, this group who called themselves "The Mafia", when was it established and when did it start conducting a reign or terror in Bottlebrush?

MR JEKE: I think the incidents started happening from 1989 but the situation was rife after 1993 or from 1993, after or just before the 1994 elections.

MS KHAMPEPE: As the Deputy Chairperson of the ANC branch, did you see it important that there should be peace in the area so that the political objectives of the ANC could be fulfilled and which couldn't have been fulfilled in the presence of rife violence?

MR JEKE: Yes, that is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: According to your knowledge, how many members of "The Mafia" did you know?

MR JEKE: I knew of 15 members but they were also joined by other members from other areas and we couldn't keep count of them.

MS KHAMPEPE: How long did it take you - as you said just before the elections the violence became rife, how long did it take you to mount efforts in order for you to banish them or beat them? Did it take you moths or years?

MR JEKE: It was quite a few years up to the period of the decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there no further questions? There's one aspect that, Mr Prior, you can perhaps save us time on if you can. It appears from the evidence that the position was completely out of control in this area, that also appears from Judge Nicholson's Judgment, do you accept that, that "The Mafia" had gone completely berserk and out of control and had made life unbearable for the ordinary members of the community?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, yes, that's certainly my understanding, having spoken to various persons in the area, that law and order had broken down to a very substantial extent.

CHAIRPERSON: No more questions. Yes, sorry, re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: Thank you, M'Lord, just one question.

You spoke about people from other areas coming into this area and you spoke about the killing of the Development Committee people, can you tell us something that you mentioned to me in our consultation, about people coming from another area during 1993, just for the record and mention that area and what your suspicions were.

MR JEKE: These were the people who came from Wellbedash(?). When we saw them at first instance they were communicating or mixing with "The Mafia" group and they were committing the same deeds that were conducted by "The Mafia" group.

MR SAMUEL: What were your suspicions regarding who these people were?

MR JEKE: We suspected that they were also affiliated to "The Mafia" because they acted in the very same manner that "The Mafia" did.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, M'Lord.


CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude the evidence you are leading?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct, M'Lord.


CHAIRPERSON: Where are the applicants sitting?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct, M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: You can join the other applicants now, thank you.







DAY : 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR SAMUEL: I would like Mr Nzama to confirm his affidavit and the evidence of Mr Jeke.

ADV POTGIETER: Are your full names, Bheki Alfius Nzama?

BHEKI ALFIUS NZAMA: (sworn states)


Mr Nzama, you applied for amnesty to this Committee and you submitted an affidavit, do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

MR NZAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Nzama, you heard the evidence of Mr Jeke who testified before you, do you confirm what he said to this Committee?

MR NZAMA: Yes, I do.

MR SAMUEL: What political organisation did you belong to in 1993?


MR SAMUEL: What position did you hold with the ANC?

MR NZAMA: I was in the Youth League.

MR SAMUEL: I have no further questions, M'Lord.



ADV PRIOR: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.


CHAIRPERSON: No questions from the Committee.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Nzama, you may be seated.




















DAY : 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR SAMUEL: Thank you, M'Lord, I'd like to call Mr Sithole to testify.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Sithole, please stand. Are your full names, Andries Sibokwake Sithole?



Mr Sithole, you made an affidavit with the other two gentlemen who testified before you, applying for amnesty to this Committee, do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I do.

MR SAMUEL: What organisation did you belong to prior to your arrest in 1993?

MR SITHOLE: I was in the African National Congress.

MR SAMUEL: And were you a member of that organisation, an ordinary member? I was the organiser.

MR SAMUEL: You were an organiser?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, for the branch.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Sithole, you heard the evidence of Mr Jeke who testified before you, do you confirm what he has told this Committee?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: M'Lord, I have no further questions.


ADV PRIOR: I've no questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No questions by the Committee, thank you.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, I have no other evidence to lead in this application.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I do not intend leading any further evidence on this matter. The Judgment I think was complete and comprehensive. And as I've indicated earlier, I have had no indication of any objection from the families or the next of kin who were in fact served notice of this hearing. Thank you, Mr Chairman.


MR SAMUEL IN ARGUMENT: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen. I submit that if one looks at the evidence before this Committee today, which to a very very large extent has been corroborated in substantial and material respects by the Judgment of Judge Nicholson.

The picture emerges that just prior to the 1994 elections the area of Bottlebrush became ungovernable due to the rise in prominence and in numbers and in strength of a gang known as "The Mafia" gang.

The area which was an exclusive ANC area and had an ANC branch formed in it, the community looked to the ANC to provide the governance that was lacking from the government of the day.

Various efforts were attempted, including resorting to the assistance of the police and no help ...[indistinct] the way of the community. The community tried its own endeavours, firstly by talking to the parents of the criminals concerned, in some instances assaulting them and in some instances banishing them but the problem didn't disappear. The entire situation became unbearable and when the two young girls were raped, the community almost ...[indistinct] passed a sentence against these people.

Looking at it in retrospect, as Judge Nicholson pointed out that the death penalty has in fact been declared unconstitutional, but one must look at the prevailing circumstances at that time. The community had no other option, they tried every other available means and it was the responsibility of the ANC to provide leadership and get rid of the criminal element. In that instance the three applicants were acting in furtherance of a political purpose, that is to provide governance which was lacking by the government of the day. And in those instances I submit with respect, that the applicants have made out a case for amnesty and their actions were political and were necessary, given the circumstances that prevailed and the time and era in which it occurred.

I'm therefore asking with respect, that the three applicants be given amnesty.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I can't argue against amnesty, I have no objection from any victims or any family and I seem to agree with my learned friend. The applications seem to fall fairly and squarely within the purport of Section 20 of the Act, particularly (2). The evidence is clear that the conduct of the applicants indicate an act associated with a political objective. There doesn't seem to have been any evidence regarding any personal gain and it would seem from the Judgment of His Lordship, Mr Justice Nicholson, that when they sought out the members of "The Mafia" responsible for these acts of terror, in fact they had the community in large numbers with them.

Mr Chairman, I don't have anything further to add and then leave the ultimate decision in the hands of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: It does appear doesn't it, Mr Prior, that this was not a case of mob violence in the ordinary sense of the word. The people that were killed were members of "The Mafia" and it would seem from the evidence we heard this morning, had participated in the violent crimes of the night before and they were chose for that, not just as casual passers-by or anything of that nature.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, I must agree with that, that it wasn't certainly just mob violence, they had been identified as persons responsible for certain criminal acts, particularly rape and abduction and on that basis the community had decided that they had to be done away with. Yes, I confirm that, Mr Chairman.

Please all rise.

F I N D I N G 19.10.1998

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] applicants in respect of the murder of certain persons on the 26th of December 1993. We have had put before us Indictment, Summary of Substantial Facts and Judgment relating to that case and I don't consider it necessary to set out any of the details. We have also of course got the applications of the three applicants.

It is clear from the Judgment and from the evidence that was led before us today, that the killings took place in an area known as Bottlebrush, which was an ANC area and where the ANC committees sought to provide some form of government for the local community.

There is evidence that a gang known as "The Mafia" was causing havoc in the area, committing crimes of violence such as robbery, rape and that despite requests the police appeared to be unable to do anything to prevent the recurrence of these offences.

The community thereafter looked at the ANC and the representatives of the ANC for assistance. All three applicants were either members or office bearers of the ANC at the time.

It is clear from the Judgment and the evidence that they took what steps they could to try to stop the gang behaving as they did but were unable to do so and finally on the day in question were driven to desperation by the kidnapping and multiple gang-rape of some young girls the night before.

It is not necessary in my view to set out any detailed reasoning, that I refer to the Judgment which deals concisely with all that happened and to the argument advanced before us today by Mr Samuel, who also sets out sucintly the basis on which the application is brought before us and the reason why in his submission it should be granted.

We are satisfied that the three applicants acting on behalf of the ANC which was seeking to provide governance and assistance to the community, acted to prevent further crime, acted to support the community view that they could look to the ANC for assistance. And this is in our view certainly an act committed with a political objective.

The conditions existing at that time were such that people could feel they were driven to violence. It is of course no longer an excuse for anyone to continue to take the law into their own hands in such a way but in the circumstances that existed then, we feel it is not an act of such a nature that the applicants should be deprived of amnesty because of the brutality of the act.

We accordingly GRANT THE APPLICATION FOR AMNESTY OF ALL THREE APPLICANTS in respect of the killing of the persons set out in the indictment.

None of the victims have been present here today but we have been given a list which we'll submit to the

R & R Committee for their consideration. They are:





The names of these three persons will be submitted for further consideration.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That concludes the matter set down for hearing today, so we're in the happy position that at least we can for once adjourn having completed the day's work rather than to have to wait for it. We thank all those who appeared for their assistance.