DAY : 5


CHAIRPERSON: Who do you call in the next case?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson. I'm calling Themba David Marambana, application number 1071/96. And for the record, Chairperson, I'm Zuko Mapoma, the applicant's leader.

CHAIRPERSON: And for the record, I'm Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues to similarly identify themselves.

ADV DE JAGER: Chris de Jager.

ADV SANDI: Nsikilelo Sandi.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Collett, will you do the same please?

MS COLLETT: I'm Advocate Collett, representing the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is there any representation for victims or interested parties in this matter?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, there are victims, the parents of the deceased person, by the name of Thembile Ngubo, the father and Novusile Ngubo, the mother. They are not legally represented. I have consulted ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?


CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, they are from Feni Location, F-E-N-I Location, P O Box 22, Peddie - 5640.

CHAIRPERSON: Would the father be regarded as the victim?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed, Ms Collett.

MS COLLETT: Commissioners, I would like to let the applicant testify and explain as to what happened on the day in question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Marambana, what language would you like to use?






Mr Marambana, is it correct that you were a member of the Ciskei Defence Force?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS COLLETT: Now is it correct that you were a member of the Ciskei Defence Force in 1992?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS COLLETT: Now can you tell us what happened in the Ciskei Defence Force on the 7th of September 1992?

MR MARAMBANA: On the 7th of September 1992, people were shot at Bisho. That led to a division between the Ciskei residents and the soldiers.

MS COLLETT: Now the incident that you're referring to on the 7th of September 1992, is that the incident that is commonly known as the Bisho Massacre?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, exactly.

MS COLLETT: Did you play any role, were you at the stadium when the actual killing took place?

MR MARAMBANA: I never played a role at Bisho because I was at Mdantsane Police Station, I was on stand-by.

MS COLLETT: Now after that particular incident on the 7th of September 1992, what was the attitude of the civilians of the former Ciskei towards the Ciskei Defence Force members?

MR MARAMBANA: The people of Ciskei were very angry because of what happened, because of what was done by the soldiers, the soldiers who killed a lot of people. And that actually created a conflict between the soldiers and the people of Ciskei.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that start to occur?

MR MARAMBANA: Which on are you referring to Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: When this attitude developed towards the members of the Defence Force?

MR MARAMBANA: That started just after the shooting at Bisho.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now was it the same day or a few days or the next day or when?

MR MARAMBANA: That took place on the very same day. People showed their anger at the same time.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.

Now as a member of the Ciskei Defence Force at the time, can you describe to the Committee what was actually happening to the Ciskei Defence Force members at the hands of the civilians.

MR MARAMBANA: What happened there, the soldiers were not happy because of the way they used to be killed and that some of them left their homes and stayed at the base with all their belongings. They had to stay there without their families because the people of Ciskei were very angry.

MS COLLETT: Now you yourself, did you do anything in particular after this Bisho Massacre to try and avert confrontation between yourself and the civilians?

MR MARAMBANA: There was nothing that I did because I was at Bisho.

MS COLLETT: Did you wear your military uniform?

MR MARAMBANA: I did not wear my uniform because I did not want to be identified as one of the soldiers in Ciskei.

MS COLLETT: Why was that?

MR MARAMBANA: The reason for that, the people were after us. The people of Ciskei were after us and more especially in King William's Town the people would chase. The would result to the killing and even the people would throw some rotten stuff or rotten fruit to us because they wanted to show their anger.

MS COLLETT: Were there members of the Ciskei Defence Force whom you knew that were injured or were victimised by the civilians at the time?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, there are some people that I know and one of them, when I realised this thing for the first time the other one was Dimbaza and the other one is from Mdantsane.

MS COLLETT: Were the Ciskei Defence Force soldiers safe in their houses?

MR MARAMBANA: They were not safe. I am sure about that one.

MS COLLETT: Were some of the house of the Ciskei Defence Force members ever burnt?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, their houses were burnt down, more especially in areas that were next to King William's Town.

MS COLLETT: Now what was your feeling, how did you feel at the time towards the civilians?

MR MARAMBANA: I don't want to lie, I was afraid of them because I was thinking what happened to my colleagues might also happen to me at any time as a member of the Ciskei Defence Force.

MS COLLETT: Now at that stage how long had you been ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do to protect yourself or to avoid being attacked, if those were your beliefs and feelings?

MR MARAMBANA: To protect myself I used to be, I used to stay at Bisho 161 Battalion so that I did not meet with the people of Ciskei.

MS COLLETT: Now on the particular day in question you were at your house, is that correct?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS COLLETT: And were you in the company of anybody?


MS COLLETT: In whose company were you?

MR MARAMBANA: I was with my girlfriend.

MS COLLETT: Can you tell the Committee what happened?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I'm prepared to do so. When I came from Mdantsane on stand-by we went to Bisho 165 Battalion. When we arrived there at 1 Ciskei Battalion we were given our salaries and we were given one day off. That meant that we were supposed to come back the following day.

In the morning the following day I was still sleeping with my girlfriend. I woke up and I prepared myself because I knew very well that on that particular day I was supposed to wake up and go back to work. I think it was, the time was between 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock but I woke up before lighting my lamp in the house.

When I was still relaxing there on my bed I realised that something was happening, something that sounded like a big stone hitting the window. I took my girlfriend, we took cover with my girlfriend. We sat down next to the bed. She cried and asked me what was happening. I tried to close her mouth with my hand because I wanted her to keep quiet. And I whispered in her ear and I told her that people are coming to attack us.

When I looked through the window I realised that the lace curtain was actually moving because of the wind. I saw someone who was lighting a match outside the window. When I took a closer look, the first matchstick did not light and the petrol bomb did not explode inside the house, the one that the person was throwing. And then the person decided to use the match to light the fire and I realised the person who was doing this was my own neighbour. And my girlfriend, the one that was with me cried and she ran away, or not my girlfriend but my neighbour ran away.

I went to the door and I opened the door quietly and I went out and I took my girlfriend to my sister, to my sister's child who was with my sister and told them to stay with her. I left quickly to the house, to my family house to ask for a telephone. When I picked up the phone I realised that the phone was also out of order but I knew that a day before the phone was working.

I asked my sister to borrow me a torch and I checked the telephone line outside and I discovered that it was disconnected. After that I left, I went to one of my colleagues who was also there in the area and I asked for assistance. The assistance that I asked for was a pistol. He did not want to give me this pistol. I left him and I went to my home.

When I arrived there I told my mother that I was going to Bisho to fetch my firearm. I did that, I went to Bisho. I went straight to my bungalow and I opened my locker. I took out my firearm. I went to King William's Town. From King William's Town I went to Peddie in town and I left.

From there I went to the village where I was staying. Unfortunately I saw the deceased staying with h is grandfather and I told him that I wanted to ask something from him. He enquired about what I was prepared to tell him about. And I told him that it was a long story, therefore we had to take a walk and get out of the yard. We did so. I asked the deceased why did he want to destroy me and my home, what was the reason and he said to me he did not do that, he denied.

After that I told him that: "You can't talk like that because last night you were there at my place. You were there to attack me and now this is my turn and it's my turn to attack you." I did so, I attacked him. He died.

MS COLLETT: What did you do to him?

MR MARAMBANA: I shot him.

MS COLLETT: How many times did you shoot him?

MR MARAMBANA: Will you please repeat your question Ma’am?

MS COLLETT: Sorry, how many times did you shoot him?

MR MARAMBANA: I shot him more than once, more than ten times.

MS COLLETT: Now can you tell the Committee what ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know the deceased well?


CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say you know him well?

MR MARAMBANA: I knew him very well because we used to go hunting together and we used to go to fetch pineapples together while we were still at school.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew him intimately?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, we grew up together.

ADV SANDI: And his father, did you know him well also?

MR MARAMBANA: I don't know him much because he used to be a working person. The only person that I know it's his mother because she was home with him.


MS COLLETT: Thank you.

Now how did you feel when you discovered that the person who wanted to burn your house down was in fact your neighbour?

MR MARAMBANA: I was very disappointed to see my neighbour who wanted to do this thing to me, knowing very well that we grew up together and we used to do most of the things together.

MS COLLETT: How did that affect your trust towards people?

MR MARAMBANA: I couldn't trust anyone after discovering that my own neighbour, the one that I know, can attack me. Therefore that situation led me to distrust anyone except my family.

MS COLLETT: Now you mentioned to the Committee that you actually tried to phone the police, is that correct?


ADV SANDI: Which police did you phone?

MR MARAMBANA: Peddie Police Station.

ADV SANDI: When you went to the taxi rank to catch a taxi, was that police station on your way?

MR MARAMBANA: I could not go there because the phone was out of order, therefore I thought I was going to use the phone. I did not go there. But later I discovered that the phone was not working, it was out of order therefore I could not contact the police.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not an answer to the question. The question is: On your way to get a taxi in order to go to Bisho, did you pass the Peddie Police Station?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I went past the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why didn't you go there and report the matter, ask for assistance?

MR MARAMBANA: The reason for me not to get inside and to ask for assistance, first of all the police themselves were very busy in what was happening in Bisho.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you expect them to do if that phone was working then, if they were so busy and hardly like to come to ...[intervention]

MR MARAMBANA: I would just tell them that here the people are attacking me therefore I'm expecting their help but I later realised that even the police themselves, their lives were in danger.

ADV SANDI: On your way back from Bisho with your firearm, did you go past the police station?


MS COLLETT: Now what was the relationship like between the members of the CDF and the police at that time?

MR MARAMBANA: I do want to lie, they were not in good terms, the police and soldiers. The police used to regard us as people who were illiterate. There was that type of an attitude between the police force and the soldiers.

MS COLLETT: Did you think that the police would be able to afford you any protection?

MR MARAMBANA: I did not think that they would give me some assistance but I did not want to conclude about that, though I did not think that they were going to help me.

MS COLLETT: Now why was it that you killed the deceased?

MR MARAMBANA: The reason for me to kill him it's because I was very frightened because I saw horrible things that happened to my colleagues. The one from Mdantsane and the other one from Dimbaza. I thought that the same thing would happen to me.

MS COLLETT: At the time did you regard the killing of the deceased as the only way to help yourself?

MR MARAMBANA: At the time it is because I was scared, that is why I decided to kill him because I thought that as he did not get a chance to kill me, if he comes for the second time he would be able to kill me.

ADV DE JAGER: So you killed him in order to protect your own life, is that correct?

MR MARAMBANA: Besides that, besides trying to protect myself I was also afraid.

ADV DE JAGER: So it nothing to do with a political objective?

MR MARAMBANA: It had a political objective because this situation, the reason of this whole situation is because the people were killed at Bisho. That is why I was saying this thing was politically motivated.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you stand to gain politically by killing him?

MR MARAMBANA: I don't want to lie because myself, there's nothing that I actually aimed to gain but all I was doing as a member of the former Ciskei Defence Force, I also wanted to protect the government.

ADV DE JAGER: What did this man - he didn't attack the government.

MR MARAMBANA: May the speaker please repeat the question?

ADV DE JAGER: The deceased, was he involved in politics, did he attack the government?

MR MARAMBANA: I do not want to lie and say yes or no. I do not know him. I might say that he had something in fighting the soldiers and involved in politics but he felt affected by the shooting at Bisho and that is why he decided to come and attack me. Therefore I can say that he had a political motive.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you that?

MR MARAMBANA: He did not tell me but his actions to me indicated that he is also involved in such organisations.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he belonged to a political party?

MR MARAMBANA: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he belonged to a political party?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I do have knowledge because there in the area sometimes there would be meetings that would be held in a school, in a local school, Ngwekazi Junior Secondary School where the political organisations would meet and I understand that he used to attend those meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not what I asked, I asked do you know if he belonged to a political party.

MR MARAMBANA: No, I do not know that.

ADV DE JAGER: You didn't give the date in your evidence when this incident happened, was it on the night of the 10th of September or the night of the 11th of September when this instrument was thrown at you?

MR MARAMBANA: As far as I can recall it took place on the 11th of September in the morning.

ADV DE JAGER: And the killing took place in the afternoon of the 11th?

MR MARAMBANA: Which one?

CHAIRPERSON: There's only one killing we're talking


ADV DE JAGER: The killing of your neighbour. You killed your neighbour on the afternoon of the 11th, is that correct?

MR MARAMBANA: I killed on the 11th in the morning.

ADV DE JAGER: In the morning. When did you have to report back to Bisho? You only had the day off you told us.

MR MARAMBANA: I was supposed to go back on that day when I killed my neighbour.

ADV DE JAGER: So that evening you would have slept in the camp at Bisho or at the soldier's base and you would have been safe.

MR MARAMBANA: On that particular night when he came to attack me I was not supposed to sleep at the base but in the morning after the night of the attack, in the morning I was supposed to report at the base. In the morning, the day after the attack when I was attacked.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you in fact report or didn't you report back?

MR MARAMBANA: I did not go back to the base on that particular day.

ADV DE JAGER: But should you have gone back on the 11th?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I was supposed to go back on the 11th, on the night when I killed the deceased.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.

Now, did you feel that you were being attacked because you were a member of the CDF, Ciskei Defence Force?

MR MARAMBANA: I knew that I would be attacked because as a soldier I was involved. I expected to be attacked. I knew that that would happen any time.

MS COLLETT: Was the Ciskei Defence Force seen as supporting the then government of the Ciskei under the control of Brigadier Gozo?

MR MARAMBANA: The members of the Ciskei Defence Force

were supporting Brigadier Oupa Joshua Gozo.

MS COLLETT: Were you a member of the African Democratic Movement?

MR MARAMBANA: I was not a member of any organisation, I was only a soldier.

MS COLLETT: So you had no political affiliation at all?

MR MARAMBANA: Not at all, I was not involved in a political organisation even though I was a soldier under Brigadier Oupa Gozo at that time. First of all, Brigadier Oupa Gozo had his organisation by the name of ADM. We were told when we were at the hall in 1 Ciskei Battalion that as people were burnt and the councillors were involved, we had to protect them.

ADV SANDI: The deceased, was he opposed to Brigadier Gozo?

MR MARAMBANA: I wouldn't say he opposed him or not because Oupa Gozo himself killed people.

ADV SANDI: You were not - in other words, you were not aware of any activities by the deceased which showed that he was opposed to Gozo, is that what you are saying?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, because I would support what I'm saying by this. The deceased never supported Brigadier Gozo. If he did support Brigadier Gozo he wouldn't try to attack me because of what Brigadier Gozo did.

ADV SANDI: But he was not opposed either to Gozo?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, he was not supporting him because if he supported him he wouldn't attack me because I was a member of Brigadier Gozo's soldiers.

ADV DE JAGER: Couldn't he have attacked you because he was jealous of you having this girlfriend?

MR MARAMBANA: I wouldn't include that because it doesn't involve this. I don't think that he was jealous of that. That is not even close to what happened. I wouldn't even think about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he know you were at home that day?

MR MARAMBANA: Please repeat your question Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he know that you were at home that day, or don't you know?

MR MARAMBANA: I wouldn't say he knew whether I was home or not. I would just say - I can't say how he knew but what I can say is that he was not aware. He didn't know that I was at home because when I was given a week-end off in Bisho I arrived at home at night because I was avoiding people.


MS COLLETT: Was that the situation on this day, did you arrive in the evening for your day off?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I arrived in the evening.

MS COLLETT: Now, is it your testimony to the Committee that you believed that this took place because you were a member of the CDF?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I do have concrete and truthful evidence that as I was a member of the former Ciskei Defence Force the thing that happened in Bisho, the people were against it and that caused conflict between us and the people.

MS COLLETT: This incident took place some four days after the Bisho Massacre, is that correct?

MR MARAMBANA: No - yes, it happened four days after the Bisho Massacre.

MS COLLETT: Were emotions still running high at that time between the civilians and the CDF members?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, the emotions were still running very high. Things were not better but instead of getting better they were worse.

MS COLLETT: Now after the deceased was killed, did you meet with the family at all?

MR MARAMBANA: After I killed the deceased he was buried. After some few months I would greet his mother and she did not show any bad attitude against me. Even if I was going to work I would meet his mother and she did not have a negative attitude towards me. Even her children I was able to send them to the shop to buy me a cooldrink and they wouldn't refuse.

MS COLLETT: Would you class the relationship between you and the deceased family as being good or not?

MR MARAMBANA: I can say that the relationship between the family of the deceased and myself was not bad because if it was the children from that family would not go to the shop if I sent them and I would not greet his mother and she would not respond to me when I talk to her.

MS COLLETT: Did you ever explain to them why you killed the deceased?

MR MARAMBANA: I don't want to lie, I never spoke about this killing with them. The reason for me not to tell me was that what I did was a terrible thing and I was trying to be friendly with them to show that what I did to their family I was not happy about what I did but I was trying to be friendly and to be closer to them because I regretted what I did.

MS COLLETT: Is there anything that you would like to convey to the family of the deceased now?

MR MARAMBANA: There are a lot of things that I could say to the family of the deceased now.


MR MARAMBANA: To the family of the deceased I ask forgiveness for what I did because what I did, those were not my intentions but I was frightened, I was scared. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen when you shot him them 10 times? What did you think was going to happen, if you didn't mean to kill him?

MR MARAMBANA: I expected that the family of the deceased would not be friendly to me because of the way that I killed him but it was something that was inside me that was disturbing me. I was not happy at that time. I knew what I did I did it - it was not my intention to do what I did but I was frightened or I was scared and after all that, I wanted to be on friendly terms with his family.

MS COLLETT: Yes, continue with what you wanted to say to the family.

MR MARAMBANA: To the family members of the deceased, I'm very sorry what I did and I ask for forgiveness. I ask for forgiveness from the family members of the deceased and I would like them to forgive me. I cannot say a lot of words here but if they can forgive me I would show them when I'm released from prison or when I'm at home I will show them that I'm very sorry about what I did.

MS COLLETT: How would you intend doing that?

MR MARAMBANA: When I'm at home ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Collett, is that an issue?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, what I'm trying to establish from him is in what fashion would he try and make reparation to the family if given an opportunity to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not a requirement of the Act in order to grant amnesty or not.

MS COLLETT: No, I know that but it's merely for the family's information.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking if it isn't a matter of privacy? But if ...[inaudible] arrangements are intended and are able to be effected, can't that be done in private?

MS COLLETT: I take your point.

Is there anything further that you would like to tell the Committee with regard to this incident?

MR MARAMBANA: There is nothing that I want to say, but I want to stress to the authorities of the TRC that what

I did, shooting the deceased, I'm very sad about what I did because all that happened because of the apartheid of the previous government because we had to support their ideas, the past government's ideas. That led me to do what I did, shooting a person. I never thought I would do that in my life.

CHAIRPERSON: You worked in the army.

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't think you'd be in a position to shoot anybody, being a member of the army? What were you going to do in the army then if you didn't want to shoot anybody?

MR MARAMBANA: I know that in the army I was there to defend or protect people and we had a relationship with people, especially after the release of the President, Nelson Mandela when he was taken by the helicopter from the parliament in the parade ground and the people or the civilians wanted to go in to greet the President and that didn't happen before. We were in close relations with people and this conflict came afterwards, the conflict between the soldiers and the people.

MS COLLETT: Thank you, that is the evidence.


CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, just a few.

Mr Marambana, in your evidence you say the civilians were against the Ciskei Defence Force members and you witnessed that conflict happening in King William's Town, do you remember that?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I do remember that.

MR MAPOMA: And you heard about it in Mdantsane, do you still remember that?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I do remember.

MR MAPOMA: Did you hear about it in Feni Location?

MR MARAMBANA: Please repeat your question Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Did you hear about it in Feni Location?

MR MARAMBANA: I didn't hear about this conflict at Feni Location. This happened in places next to King Williams Town, that were next to King William's Town.

MR MAPOMA: And apart from yourself there were other members of the Ciskei Defence Force in your area, is it not so?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever hear that the deceased ever participated in attacking the Ciskei Defence Force members?

MR MARAMBANA: No, I didn't hear that he took part in attacking other members that were staying in that area.

MR MAPOMA: And you didn't know that he ever did that, is it so?

MR MARAMBANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now you said, when the window broke you told your girlfriend that the people are attacking you, do you remember that?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I did say that.

MR MAPOMA: Which people were you referring to?

MR MARAMBANA: I realised that there was a smell of petrol and it was not usual that a person would be attacked by one person. I thought that there are a lot of people outside but when I went outside I saw that it was one person because I saw only one person.

MR MAPOMA: And you agree that it was very strange for one person to do that?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, it is very strange but I would like to ask the TRC to know that a person can volunteer, especially a neighbour he can volunteer from his organisation that: "I would to be given a duty to do this job on a particular area". That's what I'd like the Truth Commission to realise. That a person can be sent alone to do a certain job. For example in the army there is a special force that I was a part of, where a person would be sent alone to go and pull a mission somewhere.

ADV DE JAGER: But we know that and we acknowledge that but you don't know whether this person was sent or whether he volunteered?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct, I don't know whether he was sent there or he just volunteered but what I know is that he was the only one who was there to attack me. That gives me - for that reason I think that he was sent there alone or he volunteered.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.

In your evidence you said there was no bad blood between the deceased's family and yourself, isn't that so?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I did say so. The reason for me to say so was because I was able to send children in the shop to buy me drinks and the mother of the deceased when she was going to work I would meet with her and talk and chat with her on the way. That showed that there was no conflict between myself and the family.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, and there was no bad blood between yourself and the deceased, isn't it so?

MR MARAMBANA: I wouldn't say there was conflict between myself and the deceased or not. What I know is that we grew up together and we were in good relations when we were growing up. What surprised me was when he went to my home and attacked me and I then realised that maybe there was bad blood or conflict between myself and the deceased.

ADV DE JAGER: This home of yours, were you the only one staying there? Where was your family, didn't they stay there?

MR MARAMBANA: The yard is big and there were four houses in our yard, there were three houses. There were rondawels and flats and on the other side of the rondawels there was a house that was belonging to my sister and she was married and she was staying there.

ADV DE JAGER: And in your house, were you the only person staying there?

MR MARAMBANA: I was sleeping in a rondawel but I was staying with my family in a big house.

MR MAPOMA: Can you say to the Committee that the deceased as a person had any animosity with you?

MR MARAMBANA: I can say to the TRC authorities that between myself and the deceased there was animosity and that was caused by the fact that we soldiers killed people in Bisho and then he came to attack me.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, I'm referring to prior to the attack, prior to the attack which you claim ...[intervention]

MR MARAMBANA: Prior to the attack, I don't want to lie, there was no animosity between us because I've already mentioned before that the deceased and myself would go and hunt together and we would go and fetch pineapples early in the morning, so there was a good relationship between us.

MR MAPOMA: When exactly did you observe this person that you saw during that night, the attacker?

MR MARAMBANA: I saw the attacker after he threw a petrol bomb that did not explode. After it failed to explode he used matchsticks trying to light the lace curtain where he threw the petrol bomb. Because there was wind outside the matches did not work and he then used a lot of matchsticks and then I observed or realised that it was the deceased who was doing this.

MR MAPOMA: And you were shocked at the time, is that so?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I was shocked to realise that it was the deceased.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, you were shocked by - when the petrol bomb was thrown through the window you were shocked, is it so?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct, I was shocked.

MR MAPOMA: And it is at that stage that you observed this person, isn't is to?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And this person was throwing some light as you say, behind the lace curtain?


MR MAPOMA: And when you saw this person behind the lace curtain your observations told you that it is the deceased?

MR MARAMBANA: First of all, I've already said that after he threw the petrol bomb he used the matches but he couldn't succeed the lace curtains because of the wind. The lace curtain was moving upside down and it was then that I saw the deceased because he did not use the matchsticks once, he used them several times. Maybe he used all the matchsticks in the matchbox. That's when I realised that it was him.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mapoma.

What was this thing he was trying to light with a match?

MR MARAMBANA: He was trying to light where the petrol bomb it and where it failed to explode.

ADV SANDI: Did the petrol bomb fall inside or outside the house?

MR MARAMBANA: It broke the window and it was stopped by the headboard, the headboard of the bed. It fell inside the house.

ADV SANDI: What was that petrol bomb like, what was it made of?

MR MARAMBANA: I think that it was made with petrol and the sticks and sand that was inside.

MR MAPOMA: So as I understand it it was at night and it was dark outside?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And are you saying you observed this person through this light which was being attempted?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I did see him even though it was dark because he was using the matchsticks a lot of times.

MR MAPOMA: So you're saying you saw him through the light of that ignition of the matchsticks, is that what you're saying?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I saw him while he was trying to use all these matchsticks. He was using it as if he was going to smoke. He was lighting as if he was going to smoke.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, the house did not burn?

MR MARAMBANA: No, it didn't burn.

MR MAPOMA: You know Mr Marambana, I'm asking these questions because the parents of the deceased deny that their child was ever there at that time and that their child ever did the acts that you say he did. What is your comment on that?

MR MARAMBANA: When they are saying they deny that what I can say is that that is their view. I won't criticise that because every parent has the right to defend his or her child but I am sure that I saw the deceased with my own eyes in that house.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mapoma, I notice that you refer to the deceased as a child, how old was he?

MR MAPOMA: Well Chairperson, ...[intervention]

MR MARAMBANA: I am 32 years old now. I think he would be 26 or 27 years old now, I'm not sure but he was younger than myself.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir. I can just explain Sir, that the parents speak in their capacity as parents and their child remains a child, that's how I've put it.

And in fact the deceased himself denied that he ever attacked your place, when you confronted him? Do you remember that you said so?

MR MARAMBANA: Yes, I do remember that because I do agree with you that he denied that. First of all it is not easy to admit what you did but when you see that you can be in trouble for what you did you then admit. It is the truth that the deceased said he did not do this but he then agreed that yes, he did that and he was asking for forgiveness for what he did.

MR MAPOMA: When did he agree now?

MR MARAMBANA: He agreed when I was asking him. After we went out of the house of his grandmother he agreed. We were outside the yard when he agreed.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you not say that in your evidence in chief, why do you say that only now?

MR MARAMBANA: I'm sure about what I am saying. Even in the statement that I made before to the TRC I did mention that the deceased at first he denied this but after I asked him several times he then admitted that yes, he did this. I remember this because the investigator who came to me at the Piet Retief Prison asked me whether the deceased admitted whether he was the one who attacked and then I said: "Yes". Then he asked me whether I was threatening him when he admitted that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell your representative that, that he admitted to having thrown the petrol bomb etc?

MR MARAMBANA: I can say that yes, I told her that the deceased admitted that.

ADV DE JAGER: I've read it somewhere, it's somewhere in the papers.

ADV SANDI: I don't recall having heard such evidence in the course of the applicant's evidence in chief, that the ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: No, I don't think he said it but I've read somewhere that before he killed him he admitted and he asked forgiveness.

ADV SANDI: Page 12, he says there at the eighth line from the top:

"He denied, and I told him that it's his turn now to die. I shot him and he died instantly."

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, Mr Mapoma, are there any more questions you have?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I have no further questions, thank you.


CHAIRPERSON: Miss Collett, have you got any re-examination?

MS COLLETT: Nothing further, no.


CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you're excused.

MR MARAMBANA: I would like to say something to the family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can.

MR MARAMBANA: To the family of the deceased and the TRC authorities I want to say these words. I didn't think or I never thought that I would kill the deceased because first of all we had good relations between ourselves. We had nothing against each other when we were growing up. The reason why I killed him was because of something that happened in Bisho because what happened there made us to be in conflict with the people.

I would like the family of the deceased to view this as that those were not my intentions but it was the political situation that was happening in the former Ciskei.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

MR MARAMBANA: What I would like to add to the family members of the deceased is as I'm in the Middledrift Central Prison I had a request that I made to the headquarters in Pretoria if they would re-employ me as a member of the South African National Defence Force. Their answer was that I should wait because they are still looking at my request. I took that letter and I sent it home and that gave me hope that when I'm released, even if I'm not released by the TRC Amnesty Committee but if I'm released I would try to make peace between myself and the family of the deceased because what happened happened suddenly. So if I do get a job I would show the family members of the deceased that I regret what I did. Those were not my intentions. That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.

MR MARAMBANA: Thank you.


CHAIRPERSON: Miss Collett, are there any other witnesses you'd like to call?

MS COLLETT: No, Sir, there are no further witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are there any witnesses to be called?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, not for the purposes of merits for the application, they are victims. I can just put their names on record. Oh, fortunately I've already put their names on record, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all to be done about this case then?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, that is all Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Collett, have you got any submissions you'd like to make? It's not ...[indistinct]. If you wish to then we'll listen.

MS COLLETT ADDRESSES: I merely wish to place before this Committee that the gist of what the applicant has been saying is that he was a member of the CDF at a time when the CDF and the Ciskei Government seemed to be particularly unpopular as a result of Bisho Massacre. His testimony as I understand it is that but for these circumstances he might not have found himself in the situation of having to take the life of another person or having taken the live of another person, because he would not have been a victim of the circumstances at the time, which he perceived to be that his life and other members of the CDF were at threat or threatened.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but his life could never have been in danger if he left his firearm at Bisho.

MS COLLETT: I hear what you say Sir, but my submission in that regard is that he was home for one single day. If one has regard to the fact that he said he would go home in the evening so that he wouldn't be seen maybe the intention of the deceased or maybe the intention of the burning was not to burn him per se, maybe it was just to burn the house. One never knows. That is certainly an option which one could look at. But the fact of the matter is that his evidence goes as far as saying: "But for the circumstances that I find myself in, the political circumstances that I find myself in I would not have acted the way that I did. He obviously believed and he had reasonable grounds to believe that he was in a volatile situation at the time. I do believe that he's made full disclosure.

The Judgment of the High Court found that there had in actual fact been a petrol bomb attack at his house. There was evidence to that effect and I do believe that he has made a full disclosure to this Committee about what he did, that he shot the deceased several, many times, I think several isn't enough, many times and for the bona fide reason that he believed that he was at threat. And I want to ask this Committee to take that into consideration when considering his amnesty application. Those are my submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We are going to take a bit of time to make a decision on this and we will hand down our decision as soon as it is humanly possible.

This session is adjourned until Tuesday morning at 9a.m.