TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 8TH OCTOBER 1998

NAME: MR BHIYE AND OTHERS - POSTPONEMENT

DAY: 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are you calling the application of Bhiye(?) and others?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the position about that?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson in that matter the position is that they have, the applicants have just instructed their legal representative and he asks some indulgence to make proper consultation and preparation for the hearing. The matter has been discussed with the representative for the victims and we have agreed that the matter will have to be adjourned in those circumstances. So we are putting that proposal to the Committee, to have the matter adjourned.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kingcad(?), that correct?

MR KINGCAD: I confirm that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's unfortunate that this matter has to be postponed. I have been informed of the inconveniences that it's caused, but unfortunately the fact of the matter is that legal assistance for the applicants was only recently acquired and it is likely that certain documentation will have to be drafted after he consults with the applicants.

Given the fact that this circuit is scheduled to end next Friday, before which there are other applications that are scheduled, it is hardly likely and indeed I think inappropriate to contemplate even starting this matter sometime next week. Because in any event it would have to be postponed to when next the Amnesty Committee in the form as it is presently constituted here, next comes around to East London.

I would prefer, and I so rule, that the matter be postponed sine die to be heard at the next time any Amnesty Committee comes round to East London, when this matter can receive its attention and hopefully finally dispose of it. To the other interested parties who have come along to listen to the hearing, for what it's worth, our apologies and I hope that the matters as I've explained are understood.

In the circumstances, the matter is postponed sine die.

You are excused, and Mr Kingcad, together with your clients.

MR KINGCAD: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR KINGCAD AND CLIENTS EXCUSED

 

 

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 8TH OCTOBER 1998

NAME: SIPHO MABUTI BIKO

MATTER: DEATH OF MR FRANCISCATO AND ROBBERY OF FIREARMS

DAY: 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are you calling the next matter, Mr Veveza and others?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I'm calling Winile Veveza, Sipho Biko, Mzuamadoda Yengeni.

CHAIRPERSON: For the purpose of the record, I am Judge Pillay. I am going to ask my colleagues to similarly identify themselves for the purposes of the typist, name and in respect of which applicants.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, the hearing and the application for today is in respect of the incident at Franciscato's house at Alice Street where Mr Franciscato died and a robbery of firearms took place. The application for today is in respect of that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Stutterheim, Alice Street?

MR MBANDAZAYO: It's Alice Street, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in which town?

MR MBANDAZAYO: In Fort Beaufort, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Which offences would the applications be directed at?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, because the, as Mr Chairperson will see in the record that Mr Franciscato died but the applicants were not convicted of the offence because they were linked to the robber, Mr Chairperson, in order to comprehensively deal with the whole matter, the applicants are applying specifically for the robbery of the arms and also the possession of those arms and also with the incident though they were ...[indistinct], Mr Chairperson, because the ...[indistinct] of the death of Mr Franciscato.

ADV DE JAGER: Well what exactly did they rob there?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, what they robbed was firearms, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: How many firearms?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, according to the information from the applicants four firearms were robbed.

ADV DE JAGER: You see in the application of Mr Veveza, the particulars of the acts:

"Killed the victim"

And then he says:

"They were looking for firearms"

But he didn't really ask for amnesty on the offence of robbery or of taking firearms, but at least he's referring to firearms. So you will have to amend, or ask for an amendment and we'll see whether we could amend, whether the Act would allow us to amend on the particulars that you may be giving us.

Mr Mapoma, who were the victims? Were they given notice here in this case? The next-of-kin of the deceased.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, up to this moment I was still trying to communicate with the Evidence Analyst and our Investigators regarding the notice to the victims in respect of this matter. The last time I contacted the investigator was that they are not able to locate the next-of-kin of the victim. The victim is deceased and the matter is still being taken up with the investigation now as to ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Well if there was serious efforts and they couldn't find the next-of-kin, and we've got evidence in that regard before us, we can proceed but can we proceed if there was no serious attempt to advise the victims of our hearing today?

MR MAPOMA: Unfortunately Chairperson, at this stage I cannot tell the Committee as to the seriousness or otherwise of the investigation which was made in getting hold of the next-of-kin.

CHAIRPERSON: How long will it take you to investigate it?

MR MAPOMA: Perhaps if I can be given an adjournment of 15 minutes I can find out. The investigator is Mr ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for 15 minutes for that purpose.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears to be in order. Mr Mbandazayo, I think only in respect of Veveza, it is not clearly stated, that includes the robberies in his application. What do you say about that?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I agree with you. You can look, there are two applications from Veveza.

CHAIRPERSON: Which pages?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. The application of Veveza is the first staring from page 1, Mr Chairperson, to page 6 and the second one starts from page 8 to page 13.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to be in order. You can proceed. You say the robbery of the firearms, and are there any matters that has been applied for that falls under the Arms and Ammunition Act?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, let me put it this way. The problem with this application is always that the applicants are always doing them themselves, they don't have assistance, they don't have the knowledge of this. Normally they don't put what is required in terms of the law because they are lay persons. Mr Chairperson, the application is based on their conviction for the robber and the possession of the said firearms which they robbed from Mr Franciscato.

ADV DE JAGER: Now what about the robbery of the money?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, even if the Committee decides, if we proceed with the matter with the robbery of the money, they are not applying for robbery of the money because it is my instruction that they were shocked, they heard it in court that there was money robbed. They never robbed any money according to them, so they are of the opinion that they can't apply for something they didn't know. They will be misleading the Committee if they say the robbed it.

CHAIRPERSON: What sentence did they get for the robbery of the money?

ADV DE JAGER: I think they were only charged with the robbery of the firearms and the money of R150,00. It seems to one ...[intervention]

MR MBANDAZAYO: It was included as a one sentence, Mr Chairman, it was not a ... So for the purposes of sentences these are regarded as one, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Who do you intend calling first?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible] Mr Chairman, I was told that the Committee ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] check this sentence first. Okay, proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Can the applicant be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the first applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, my first applicant will be Sipho Mabuti Biko, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Biko, which language would you prefer to use?

MR BIKO: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Biko, the affidavit in front of you is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that the affidavit was made by yourself and that you abide by its contents?

MR BIKO: Yes, that's correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, for the purposes of curtailing, I'm subject to the direction of this Honourable Committee. I normally go to certain paragraphs just for the purposes of clarity, just to clarify certain paragraphs. If the Committee wishes to start with a certain paragraph ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You lead the witness and we'll ask him anything we think we need to ask.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Biko - Mr Chairperson, I'll start with paragraph 9 of the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sipho Mabuti Biko's affidavit, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, don't you have the affidavit, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]. Shall we give this Exhibit A?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether in view of the fact that you are only getting this now, can ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You can carry on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, you say you're going to jump up to paragraph 9?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, I was going to start with paragraph 9 if there is nothing you want me to start with.

ADV SANDI: Can I just ask one question before you go to paragraph 9?

Mr Biko, you say in your affidavit you left school in 1989 and you also joined PASSO in 1989. PASSO I understand is a student organisation, were you still a student when you joined PASSO?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Biko, paragraph 9 of your affidavit:

"In consequence of and in pursuit of the above-stated objective, during, on or about the 6th of September I commanded a unit that received an order from a member of APLA, Tamsanqa Duma to kill and repossess weapons from the house of Mr Franciscato in Alice Street, Fort Beaufort".

Can you tell the Committee in detail when you were given this order by Mr Duma and tell the Committee who is Mr Duma.

MR BIKO: Yes, I can do that. Can I continue?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

MR BIKO: I moved from Transkei. I was handed over to Tamsanqa Duma by Mbulelo Dlamini ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Mr ...

MR BIKO: I was handed to Tamsanqa Duma. I went there for some operations.

ADV SANDI: What operations were you supposed to carry out?

MR BIKO: To shoot the white people, the Boers.

ADV SANDI: Those instructions came from Mbulelo Dlamini?

MR BIKO: No, as a trained APLA soldier that was what I was supposed to do. I was trained to do that. I was handed over to Tamsanqa Duma. There was a place that I knew there at Fort Beaufort because I was also a resident there. I used to know the place of Mr Franciscato.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes?

MR BIKO: Tamsanqa Duma gave me three days to do the reconnaissance and to check on the target, and then he also instructed me to carry on with the operation on the third day.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell, Mr Biko, what Mr Duma told you to do when he said carry on with the operation. Can you also tell the Committee who this Tamsanqa Duma was? What was he, that is the position of Tamsanqa Duma.

MR BIKO: Tamsanqa Duma was my commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, proceed.

MR BIKO: I went to reconnoitre the target, the place and check the target for two days. On the third day I was given an order to go and attack the target. There were other comrades that I was going to meet with from Zukile, three comrades. I was going to meet with them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee what your purpose was of attacking the target.

MR BIKO: My aim to attack the target was because the order was for me to possess the arms and kill the person.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee how you met the other two.

MR BIKO: The other two I met them at Zukile's place. There were three of them waiting for me at Zukile's place as the instruction that I got. The three of them, the people who were waiting for me, it was Winile Veveza, Mzuamadoda Yengeni and Mogeti.

I called Mogeti aside and I told him to go back. I continued with Winile Veveza and Mzuamadoda, Yengeni to town and when we arrived in town I told them that we were there for the operation at Mr Franciscato's house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, what happened on your arrival?

MR BIKO: When we arrived there we got inside the yard. Mzuamadoda waited outside the yard. Myself and Winile went inside and I knocked the door and Mr Franciscato came and opened the door and I asked him whether Joyce was working there and then he said "no". When he said "no" I kicked him and he fell. He fell down and I pointed him with a gun.

I demanded the firearms and then he told me where his firearms were and he showed me the place. They were under the bed and the others were inside the trunk. He took out three pistols and one to 202 was under the bed, was in the bed, in his bed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What other weapons did you find with the exception of the 202 you are referring to?

MR BIKO: The three sting shooters and two .2 and one 2.2 and one rifle. That's all. There were four firearms only.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what weapon were you armed with when you went there?

MR BIKO: I was armed with a 38 special, 18 shooter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The other two?

MR BIKO: They were armed with pangas. The other two task force were armed with pangas, task force members.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What did they also do in the house after you have entered yourself?

MR BIKO: I instructed them to ensure that there were no other arms inside Mr Franciscato's room. I took Mr Franciscato in one of the rooms that was next to the kitchen. I told him to told him to close his eyes because I was about to run. I shot in the head.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Then what happened thereafter?

MR BIKO: I asked them if there was anything that they got in the house. They said: "No, there was nothing". We left the house and went to the township.

When we arrived at the river I searched them to make sure that there was nothing else hidden on their bodies. I wanted to be sure that they didn't take anything else in the house because I didn't want them to do things that I did not instruct them to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think it necessary to take that precaution?

MR BIKO: According to the instruction and as a commander of that operation, my sub-ordinates, I was supposed to search my sub-ordinates to ensure that they did not take anything like money.

If the order was to take money and firearms, we are supposed to do exactly per order. We are not supposed to take anything, therefore it was necessary to do that, to make sure that they didn't take anything from the house.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but these were your comrades, did you not trust them? What was the problem, why did you have to go to the extent of searching them?

MR BIKO: According to the instruction I was doing that because I was instructed to do so. Each and every force - if I am a commander of that unit, I'm carrying out an operation, I'm supposed to ask them if they did not do anything that I did not instruct them and I'm supposed to search them again so that I can report fully to my commander and be sure that they did not take anything, they did not do anything that they were not instructed to do. That is why it was necessary for me to search them.

ADV SANDI: Would one be correct to infer from what you've said that your comrades were the type of people who would simply grab for themselves whenever operations of this nature are carried out?

MR BIKO: No, they were not supposed to do that if they're instructed but if they are following the rules of the PAC they would not do that. But it is a rule for me to make sure that they did not take anything that they were not instructed. It is not that I didn't trust them.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Then tell the Committee, after your search what happened?

MR BIKO: After searching them I left with them to the township. We went to Zukile's Biko's house at Gunti(?). I left them there and I continued to Duma and I surrendered the arms that were found in Mr Franciscato and I told him everything about the operation and I told him that I kicked him and he fell and I point him with a gun and I told him that I wanted guns, then he gave me the guns.

I also told him that I put him in one of the rooms and I shot him and he died. And he asked me if we were not chased after the mission and I told that nothing of that nature happened. And then he asked me the whereabouts of the other comrades and I told him that I left them at Gunti where I found them before.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Biko, you seem to be going too fast, it's very hard for me to pick up all the names you mentioned. Who is this person you say you were giving some kind of a report as to what had happened, who were you talking to? Zukile?

MR BIKO: No, Tamsanqa Duma who was my commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, just for clarity because of the sound. They went to the house of Zukile Biko after retreating and then he left the others there. He went to Tamsanqa Duma.

Now Mr Biko, you know that somebody died as a result of that incident, though you were found not guilty in court. What now after the incident, sitting in retrospect thinking about the whole thing, what do you say?

MR BIKO: I sympathise with the victims but I couldn't do otherwise because I was involved in the struggle and both sides were fighting and even my life was in danger.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairman, at this stage.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

Mr Biko, is it correct that you dearly want to get out of prison?

MR BIKO: That is in the hands of the Committee, but I'm here to tell and I'm here to ask for amnesty for something that I did to Mr Franciscato because I killed him and I took his firearms.

MR MAPOMA: And you want to get out of prison?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And at some point you did escape from prison after you were convicted?

MR BIKO: Yes, I did that, I did escape.

MR MAPOMA: And you left your operatives in prison?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: When you escaped from prison you knew that all other political prisoners are still remaining in jail?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct, I knew that they were there but I was not running away forever but I knew that I would go back in December. I just wanted to solve my problems that the prison did not - I wanted to solve my problems, those that the prison authorities failed to solve for me, so I decided to go there myself and solve my problems and then I came back.

On my way back I met with a policeman on the way and the policeman arrested me and I was charged for a escape and I was further charge for three years for escape, therefore my sentence now is 10 years.

MR MAPOMA: When did you escape from prison?

MR BIKO: That was last year in July.

MR MAPOMA: When did you make your amnesty application to the Amnesty Committee?

MR BIKO: In 1996.

MR MAPOMA: So when you escaped from prison you had already had your application for amnesty with the Amnesty Committee, is that right?

MR BIKO: Will you please repeat your question?

MR MAPOMA: When you escaped from prison you had already filed your amnesty application to the Amnesty Committee?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: With a view to getting yourself, amongst other things, released from prison, is it so?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did you not trust that you could be granted amnesty and you get released without you having to escape from prison?

MR BIKO: I trusted the process but I was pressurised and the prison authorities failed to solve my problems. I contacted with the social workers to organise the meeting with my parents but they failed. I could relax and therefore I decided to go and solve my problems.

I knew that I would come back in December. I was arrested on my way to the prison, to hand myself, to surrender and continue with my sentence but now the policeman arrested me and I was further charged for escape and they added three years on top of that seven years and my sentence became 10 years.

MR MAPOMA: Now are you telling the Committee that you left prison with a view to coming back to prison again yourself, at your own volition?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct. That is correct, to such an extent that I told my co-accused that I would come back in December to complete my sentence because I would be released in the year 2000. That was my date of release on parole.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairperson, just bear with me please.

ADV SANDI: Why were you deployed in Fort Beaufort when you came back from the Transkei?

MR BIKO: The reason for me to go there, I went there to carry out operations.

ADV SANDI: I notice that you say you were deployed back in Fort Beaufort where there was a political conflict between the PAC and the ANC, what was this conflict about? Where you supposed to be playing any role in the resolution of this conflict?

MR BIKO: I did not go there for the conflict but I went there to attack the Boers at Fort Beaufort. I found the place corrupt as it was at the time. It was out of control. The PAC and ANC people were fighting.

ADV SANDI: Did you take part in that conflict?

MR BIKO: No, I did not take any part.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you deployed there for, to do what?

MR BIKO: I was deployed there to carry on mission to attack Boers.

CHAIRPERSON: And just allow the conflict between the ANC and the PAC to continue? That was none of your business?

MR BIKO: I was working per order. The instruction that I received was not to go there and attack the ANC members. My instruction was to hit the Boers, therefore if I could deviate that, that would mean that I was actually against the rules of APLA if I can go there and do my own thing. That is why I did not get involved in the township but instead I did what I was there to do.

ADV SANDI: I suppose in this conflict PAC people and ANC people were attacking each other, not so?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct, they were fighting.

ADV SANDI: There was also a danger that you could also be attacked as a member of the PAC, not so?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: But this conflict was none of your business even though you were also in danger of being attacked?

MR BIKO: If it was necessary for me to go and solve or protect my members, if that was the order, I would do that but unfortunately that type of an order was not issued. I was not instructed to be part of the people who were attacking each other. I was not doing my own thing there.

ADV SANDI: Is not one of your functions, is not one of your duties as a soldier of APLA to protect members of your organisation?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is my duty but if I'm instructed to do so.

ADV SANDI: Were any people killed in the course of this conflict between the two organisations?

MR BIKO: According to what I heard, some people died there between PAC and ANC.

ADV SANDI: Where did you hear that some people had been killed? Did you not stay there?

MR BIKO: I heard that from other members of PAC. Yes, I was staying there. I got that information from other members of PAC but I was in prison when the other people died because I was, I have ...[indistinct] after this incident at Mr Franciscato's house.

MR MAPOMA: You say you were trained in Transkei, where in Transkei?

MR BIKO: In Lusikisiki.

MR MAPOMA: Now where is Tamsanqa Duma, is he at this hearing?

MR BIKO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: The decision to attack Franciscato, would I be correct to think that your motive said it was your decision, you identified him as the target?

MR BIKO: Are you asking - yes, you are telling the truth if you say I am the one who saw him as the target. That was my decision because I went there to reconnoitre the place and I saw him as a target.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave Duma the information that there's guns to be obtained at that house, you? So that he could consider it and give you the ...[intervention]

MR BIKO: Yes, because he gave me three days to reconnoitre the place and I did so and I thought about a white man where my mother used to work and my mother had some firearms - the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely, so you knew long before this incident, that there was firearms to be obtained there in that house, not so?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct, his name was on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: On the list of what?

MR BIKO: The list of places that would be attacked, where operations would be carried out.

CHAIRPERSON: Hit list?

MR BIKO: Yes, hit list.

CHAIRPERSON: There's so many hit lists in this country. Anyway, so when these plans came you provided the information for Duma to consider and ultimately he gave you the order to go on a reconnaissance trip to look at this house and the prospects of obtaining these firearms. You did so, you went back and he finally gave you the ultimate order to go and obtain these firearms within the then policy of the Pan Africanist Congress, which included killing white people.

MR BIKO: I want you to understand this. First of all when I moved from Transkei I was handed over to Mr Duma's hands and I was there actually to carry out operations and Mbulelo Dlamini instructed me to do so. But Tamsanqa gave me three days to observe the target. I went to town reconnoitred and attacked this target and I saw this white man. I had last seen this man in 1983 or 1984 and my mother was working for him. I thought that - I remembered that he had some guns and I realised that he was still staying alone and I took a decision but I went back to tell Tamsanqa Duma on the third day.

I told him that I had observed the target and it's the right target and Tamsanqa Duma told me to go on with the operation to attack that target.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SANDI: You've mentioned something about a hit list, who compiled this list?

MR BIKO: This hit list was mine. That was my hit list because I went there knowing very well that there are places that I knew in the place that would be attacked. I handed over to Mr Tamsanqa Duma.

ADV SANDI: Franciscato was in this list, what other targets were in the list?

MR BIKO: No, he was not in that list. He was not yet there in that list because I was not sure about him at the time when I had just arrived from Transkei. I only included him in the list after observing, after realising that he was still around then I later included him in the list. We used to have that type of a list when we were about to carry out a certain operation.

ADV SANDI: What was contained in the list?

MR BIKO: The names of the places that would be attacked.

ADV SANDI: What places were those?

MR BIKO: Places like Mr Franciscato's place and other places that would be attacked in the future.

ADV SANDI: I notice from the bundle of documents we have before us that you have a number of - have you ever been convicted before, other than the offence for which you're now sitting in prison?

MR BIKO: Yes, just before joining PAC I was once arrested. I was once convicted before I joined PAC.

ADV SANDI: Is it true that from 1983 to 1990 you were involved in a series of crimes ranging from theft, housebreaking and so on? 1983 to 1990?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: What is the difference ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It's in fact 10 instances of dishonesty, housebreaking, theft, possession of stolen goods, yes.

MR BIKO: At the time I was not yet a full member of PAC, therefore I repented after joining PAC and I followed the correct path.

I would request the Committee not to talk about that. I am a different person now, I'm no longer doing those things. I changed when I joined PAC and a person can change. I never knew that I would be an APLA

members, I did not even know that I would be church-goer. That is about a change of human being.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't doubt, maybe you can change, we don't disagree you could have changed but we will ask you questions as we deem fit because you've made the application and we need to find out whether the application is worthy of being granted. Do you understand?

MR BIKO: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: And if it includes investigating your troubled past then that is what we must do, not so? Do you understand?

MR BIKO: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: So will you answer the question is you haven't answered it the way you wanted to?

MR BIKO: I have answered that question according to my other cases.

ADV DE JAGER: You joined the PAC in 1989 and you've just told us that then you reformed, after joining the PAC.

MR BIKO: I joined in 1989. I did not know everything at the time about the rules of PAC, I was still learning about it up to 1990. I was still getting political education because it's not a question of joining today and getting to know everything, you've got to attend meetings and get political education. I was so lazy to attend such things, only to find out that was actually detrimental to me because I did not attend those meetings.

Until such time I attended the meetings in 1990 and decided now with all my heart to be a member of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: And you reformed?

MR BIKO: Yes, I reformed after that.

CHAIRPERSON: Then how do you explain your conviction and sentence of the 9th of June 1993 for housebreaking with intent to steal and theft valued R11 000-odd?

MR BIKO: How do I reconcile the two, that case and the one I'm here for?

CHAIRPERSON: No, how do you reconcile your reformation in 1990 when you joined the PAC and your conviction in 1993, June? You say you changed, you became a good person, you left all these bad things from 1990 when you joined the PAC but yet you are convicted for housebreaking with intent to steal and theft of clothing estimated at about R11 000. You received an effective 15 months imprisonment for that.

MR BIKO: I remember that incident but what happened, I was arrested because I harboured stolen property. I was accused by the police that I'm the one who did that. They sentenced me for 15 months. I couldn't do otherwise because I was in the hands of the police. They just stated that and sentenced me and I was innocent. They sentenced me because I kept those stolen property in my place. The police did not believe because before I used to be a troublemaker.

CHAIRPERSON: You had this stolen property with you although you never stole it yourself, is that what you are saying?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were in possession of stolen clothing to the value of R11 000 at the time of your arrest?

MR BIKO: I was arrested and that clothing was in the house, the were in the room. The police got information and they went to my place and got that clothing.

CHAIRPERSON: You see why we asking or I'm asking these questions, you've had a terrible criminal past, do you understand? Involving housebreaking and getting into places where you should not be and stealing from people where you violated the sanctity of the homestead, is that not so? And you say that by 1990 you reformed because you were being taught by the principles of the Pan Africanist Congress, not so? That's what you say?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you went to steal these firearms it was a similar thing you did, to go into a person's house and violate the safety of his house, not so? Yet you say that is based on political considerations, which may be so but we need to check that, that is why we are asking you all these questions about your previous convictions. Do you understand? It's not that we're trying to catch you out.

MR BIKO: Yes, I understand, Sir.

ADV SANDI: Mbulelo Dlamini and Tamsanqa Duma, were they aware of your previous convictions, your long record of crimes of theft, housebreaking and so on?

MR BIKO: No, they were not aware of such things.

ADV SANDI: When did they get to know you for the first time? Were they not also staying in Fort Beaufort?

MR BIKO: No, they were not residing there at Fort Beaufort. They knew me when I went to that place.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell them about your previous convictions and that you're now a reformed man who had chosen a new path?

MR BIKO: I did not inform them about my past convictions but I just joined APLA. After joining APLA I was told about the APLA principles and the do's and don'ts of APLA.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell anyone that you have now decided to amend your ways and become a political activist?

MR BIKO: When you join APLA there is a form that is give to you and that form has got a number of questions. One question is asking you if you are sure that you will never join any other organisations and the fact that you are sure that you won't betray the APLA organisation. I did that with all my hart.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell your mother for example - I see that in your affidavit you mention your mother, did you tell her that you changed?

MR BIKO: I told my mother when I was arrested. I told her that I was a member of APLA because she did not know. She did not know that I was an APLA member and then she passed away while I was still in jail serving for this killing of Mr Franciscato.

ADV SANDI: Have you said everything to try and convince us that the offences in respect of which you are now applying for amnesty are different to those which you had committing before?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: You've got nothing further to say to show that your offences were politically motivated? You don't have anything to say?

MR BIKO: Do you mean anything to show that what I did was politically motivated or things that I do now are politically motivated? I don't get your question, Sir.

ADV SANDI: Is there anything else you want to say to motivate what you claim to be politically motivated offences?

MR BIKO: If you understand me well you can't say everything that I was doing was politically motivated and also include the things that I did before and

you combine them with this. All the criminal deeds that I did are actually different from this. That question is not clear.

ADV DE JAGER: After you've been trained and joined the PAC in 1989, you were convicted in 1990 for stealing two motorcars. Why did you steal the motorcars, what did you want to do with them?

MR BIKO: In 1990 I was convicted for stealing two motorcars? Where?

ADV DE JAGER: The value was R10 500,00.

MR BIKO: About the two cars in 1990, two motorcars? I cannot recall anything.

ADV DE JAGER: Have you ever stolen motorcars?

MR BIKO: Yes, I did steal motorcars before.

ADV DE JAGER: Where and when?

MR BIKO: In Port Elizabeth.

ADV DE JAGER: Which year?

MR BIKO: In 1989 and 1990 I stole cars in Port Elizabeth.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, that is what I'm asking about, 1990? You were convicted in 1990 for stealing two motorcars.

MR BIKO: Yes. The cars were used during the operations. We would take them by force from the white men and give them to the other soldiers of our organisation and they would use them during the operations and leave them there.

ADV DE JAGER: So they're now also - after I've asked you why you stole them, you didn't answer me and now all of a sudden you've come to the conclusion that you've stolen them for the operations.

MR BIKO: I said your question was not clear. The way you asked me the question, the question was not clear to me, that I was convicted in 1990 for stealing two cars.

ADV DE JAGER: Right. Now if that was so and if you stole them for political purposes, why did you not apply for amnesty for that too?

MR BIKO: It has got nothing to do with politics. All that those things that are contained in my past record have got nothing to do with politics, so don't include them in this. My past record has got nothing to do. I would request you to question about things that are related to politics because I told you that I have reformed from my previous situation of behaviour.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you understood what I told you just now. You are the person that is making the application, not us and we need to investigate all aspects. Do you understand?

Now you told us that those two motor vehicles were stolen for operations, do you mean they were stolen for purposes of political operations?

MR BIKO: Sir, if you heard my answer before I said the cars would be taken by force from the white people and be given to the APLA soldiers, APLA soldiers who would carry out operations or whatever with the cars. It's got nothing to do with politics because we would do that out of our own. We were not instructed to do so by the organisations, we were just doing anarchy. That was anarchy.

ADV DE JAGER: So you've stolen the motor vehicles for anarchy, is that correct?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And then you handed the cars to your commanders for use in operations?

MR BIKO: Not our commanders. I said Sir, we would take these cars by force and give them for free to the APLA soldiers because we thought that they were using them during the operations. There was no instructions for us to do that, that was just anarchy.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, so you've given the cars to the APLA soldiers, is that correct?

MR BIKO: Yes, we were giving them for free. It's not that they asked for them but we were just giving. Even the MK soldiers, we would just give them the cars for free.

ADV DE JAGER: And they accepted it for free? They were very glad to get these cars?

MR BIKO: I'm not sure if they were glad but they would take the cars if we were giving them to them.

ADV DE JAGER: They would take the cars. To whom did you give it?

MR BIKO: Any person, even if he's and APLA soldier or an MK soldier. We were the people who were actually hitting the whites and we would give them the cars to be used in the operations because we were civilians.

ADV DE JAGER: Well tell me to whom you gave it. What is the names of the person you've given the car to?

MR BIKO: I cannot remember their names.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you tell us in your application that you were instructed by Mr Dlamini to go and rob Mr Franciscato?

MR BIKO: I'm saying here, if you are listening carefully Sir, the instruction that I was given by Tamsanqa Duma, the instruction that I was given by Mbulelo Dlamini from the Transkei, was to, I was told that I would be deployed in Fort Beaufort to carry out operations, to attack and kill the Boers. Therefore he would hand me over to comrade Tamsanqa Duma's hands and I would listen, I would obey orders from Tamsanqa Duma. It is Tamsanqa Duma who issued an order for me to kill Franciscato.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you have a look at page 22 of your application?

"On the 1st of September 1992 I received an order from my commander, Mbulelo Dlamini to go and rob a certain Franciscato of Beaufort and take possession of firearms".

MR BIKO: I agree but I think the person who was actually writing there was not writing as I was talking because someone was helping me because I could not write English properly.

ADV DE JAGER: Now where did he get the information that your commander was Mr Dlamini? Did you tell him so?

MR BIKO: He asked me about the high command and I told him that Mbulelo Dlamini was the high commander in Transkei.

ADV DE JAGER: No, you told him here that on the 1st of September you received an order from your high commander to go and rob Mr Franciscato.

MR BIKO: I think he, that was a mistake, the person did not listen carefully because my commander, the commander who instructed me to attack Mr Franciscato was Tamsanqa Duma. Mbulelo Dlamini did not know anything about Mr Franciscato as I did not tell him.

ADV DE JAGER: It's very strange because your co-applicants also they received instructions from Mr Dlamini. That's quite a different handwriting so it's another person helping them that made the same mistake.

MR BIKO: It is the same person who was writing for us and Winile Veveza. It was Kwanesele(?).

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We'll break for 10 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: (s.u.o.)

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] incident occur, what time of the day?

MR BIKO: Are you talking about his incident that I'm serving? It was round about, before 5 o'clock or past five but I'm not sure about the time.

ADV DE JAGER: And at what time did you hand the weapons to Mr Duma?

MR BIKO: When we finished, when we were from Mr Franciscato's house. When we finished our operation we went to the township and I left ...[indistinct] Zukile and it was late in the evening and I went to Tamsanqa Duma.

ADV DE JAGER: So then you carried the four weapons you've robbed at Cato's place and your own weapon?

MR BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you hand over all five weapons or did you keep one?

MR BIKO: One weapon was left with me, I didn't give him the whole five. I gave him only the four arms that were taken at that place.

ADV DE JAGER: And one of the arms you've taken was a shotgun, a long gun?

MR BIKO: It was a long gun and three pistols.

ADV DE JAGER: And how did you carry this long gun through the streets?

MR BIKO: I folded it, it is flexible and then I folded it and it was shorter and I wrapped it with my lumber jacket. I put it under my arm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 8TH OCTOBER 1998

NAME: WINILE VEVEZA

MATTER: DEATH OF MR FRANCISCATO AND ROBBERY OF FIREARMS

DAY : 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My next applicant will be Winile Veveza.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Veveza, which language would you prefer to use?

MR VEVEZA: Xhosa.

WINILE VEVEZA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Veveza, the affidavit which is before yourself is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR VEVEZA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Veveza, you have heard Mr Biko giving evidence before this Committee. Can you tell the Committee in your own words the role you played in this incident?

MR VEVEZA: The role I played? I can tell the Committee the role I played.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes continue.

MR VEVEZA: I was at home, it was round about after three. It was a Sunday. I received a message that I was needed in Zukile Biko's house, Tamsanqa Duma was looking for me.

I went there to Zukile Biko's place. I was with Mzuamadoda Yengeni and Mogeti. When we were still there at Zukile's place, Mabuti Biko came and he called Mogeti aside and they went outside. When he came back outside he said to me and to Mzuamadoda Yengeni we must go to town. We stood up and we went to town.

When we arrived in town we went to Alice Street in Fort Beaufort, we went through Alice Street. When we were in front of a certain house that I didn't know who the owner was, he told us to go inside the house. We went inside.

When we were in the stoep there was a door opened behind. We then knocked on that door and a white man came by the name of Franciscato. At that time I didn't know what his name was. Mabuti asked about a lady by the name of Joyce, whether she was working there or not. He didn't answer, he just said there was no lady by the name of Joyce and then he closed the door.

Mabuti went inside. He pushed the door and went inside. I also went inside because the door was open. He kicked this white man and he pointed the gun. He was lying down. I went in and helped him. He asked this white man about the weapons. We told him that we wanted weapons from him, he should give us firearms. He said that he didn't have firearms with him and we then, we beat him, Mabuti kicked him and we kicked him. We picked him up and he said that the firearms were in his bedroom. Mabuti then went in and Mzuamadoda was also inside at that time.

Mabuti took him to the room and he gave us an instruction to search inside the house to see whether we can find other firearms. We searched inside the house, we looked inside the house. When he was in the back room I heard a gunshot. I then went out of this room and I left Mzuamadoda there. I went to him and I saw that this white man was lying on the ground. I saw blood on the ground.

There was a mirror in the house and it was full of blood and the brains were scattered all over. We then took these firearms. We opened the trunk. It looked like a toolbox trunk where we found a 2.2. We found small guns. He then told us to leave and we should not touch anything because the police would find fingerprints and we could be arrested.

We then went out. When we were near the river at Theba he told us that he was supposed to search our pockets so that he could see whether we took something else because he didn't want a dirty job. We agreed. He then searched us.

We went back to Zukile Biko's house where he left us there. He left and we didn't know where he was going. He didn't tell us where he was going. He said that he would come back, we should wait there for him. That is all.

ADV SANDI: Did he take the arms with him when he left?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, he took arms with him when he left. He took the long rifle. He then folded it and he put it in his jacket. He then left. We were in Zukile Biko's place at that time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank is all, Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: So when you joined the task force, that was the task force of APLA, is that right?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And that was in 1990?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, between 1990 and 1991.

MR MAPOMA: And before that you were already a member of the PAC, as from 1988?

MR VEVEZA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: How did you join APLA?

MR VEVEZA: I didn't join APLA, I joined task force from the PAC.

ADV SANDI: So you were not a member of APLA as such?

MR VEVEZA: No, I was not a member of APLA, I was working with APLA. I was a member of PAC under the task force.

MR MAPOMA: You were trained?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, I was trained.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you trained in?

MR VEVEZA: Please repeat your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In what were you trained?

MR VEVEZA: I was trained in the task force.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, to do what, do mathematics or read English or what?

MR VEVEZA: I was trained to defend members of the PAC, the leadership of the PAC inside.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your training about?

MR VEVEZA: I was trained to defend members of the PAC inside the country.

CHAIRPERSON: How?

MR VEVEZA: I was trained to protect the leaders of the PAC inside the country, not myself.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you supposed to do in order to comply with that duty?

MR VEVEZA: What I was supposed to do, for example if there was a rally I was supposed to make sure that there was nothing that was going to disturb that rally.

CHAIRPERSON: And what would you have to do to do that, to ensure that that rally was not going to be disturbed?

MR VEVEZA: If there was supposed to be a rally on a certain day, on that day I was supposed to know everything that was going on in that area where the rally was going to be held.

CHAIRPERSON: And then?

MR VEVEZA: And then I would go and report or tell my commanders that this might disturb what the PAC people were going to do.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were trained in reconnaissance?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

MR VEVEZA: That is not all.

CHAIRPERSON: What else were you trained in?

MR VEVEZA: I was also trained to ensure that there was no-one who would go to PAC meetings to disturb those meetings or attack PAC like what was happening in Fort Beaufort where I'm staying.

CHAIRPERSON: That's also another section of reconnaissance, what else?

MR VEVEZA: I was also trained to attack the Boers in their areas.

CHAIRPERSON: How?

MR VEVEZA: In a manner that we did because we went to Franciscato's home to kill him and we took firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: How many firearms did you take with you?

MR VEVEZA: Four firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's what you stole. I'm asking how many firearms between the three of you did you take to the house?

MR VEVEZA: I had a bayonet together my co-accused, Biko had a .38.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you discover that Biko had the .38?

MR VEVEZA: When we were there in Franciscato's home.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know that before then? On the way there you didn't know that he was in possession of a .38?

MR VEVEZA: I didn't notice that. I didn't take note of that on our way. We ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think you were going to go and do by Franciscato's house?

MR VEVEZA: Please repeat your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: On the way to his house, what did you think you're going to do there?

MR VEVEZA: I didn't know before we arrived in the house, I knew when we were there. He told us when we were there what we were supposed to do.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you go with him then, when he said come with? You didn't know what the operation was, you didn't know whether it was an operation. You didn't know whether it was a task force operation, not so? Why did you go with him then?

MR VEVEZA: It was a normal thing within the PAC as he was a member of APLA and we were working with him.

CHAIRPERSON: So?

MR VEVEZA: When he said we should go with him to town, we had to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you been trained in how to use a firearm?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, I was trained.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR VEVEZA: In Fort Beaufort.

CHAIRPERSON: By whom?

MR VEVEZA: By the APLA cadres, Tamsanqa Duma and Diesel Sione.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, Diesel Sione is presently stationed at Pietermaritzburg in the South African National Defence Force.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm saying for the information of the Committee, Diesel Sione is presently stationed at Pietermaritzburg in the South African National Defence Force, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what kind of arms were you trained in?

MR VEVEZA: ...[no English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: In what kind of arms were you trained to use?

MR VEVEZA: Every arm that was used in South Africa, I was trained to use them.

CHAIRPERSON: From handguns to?

MR VEVEZA: To rifles.

CHAIRPERSON: To cannons?

MR VEVEZA: Every firearm here inside South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: And why didn't you carry a gun with you when you went on the operation?

MR VEVEZA: We were not just given firearms. We were not given firearms for such operations, we had to take bayonets with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Why? You're trained to use any kind of firearm in South Africa, whatever that my mean, and yet you don't go with a weapon that you are acquainted with to go and complete a mission, can you explain that?

MR VEVEZA: When the commander came to me directly, when I was commanded directly by my commander of the task force he would give me a firearm to show me that I'm supposed to go and do that job. I was not supposed to take a firearm by myself. It had to be given to me by my commander.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I speak for myself. I find it strange that the PAC would arrange for this operation to take place and not to equip all its members of that team with arms so that they can successfully complete that operation. Have you got any comment about that?

MR VEVEZA: It happened. We completed the operation successfully even though we were not given firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that. What I'm saying is that I find it strange that you were not equipped with firearms so as to ensure the success of that operation.

MR VEVEZA: It was successful even though we were not armed.

CHAIRPERSON: In terms of your evidence, correct, I'm not questioning that. Can you explain why you were never given a firearm to go on that operation or why you never asked for one, seeing that you were able to use any one that was available in South Africa?

MR VEVEZA: I want the Committee to be clear. If the commander came to us as the task force we would have been given the firearms. The commander went to APLA and we went on this operation because we got this information from APLA and we were told by APLA what to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you ask for a firearm? You were going to a place where there were firearms, you didn't know whether the owner of those firearms would be in a position to shoot at you in your attempt to take those firearms, why didn't you ask for one? You were able to use it. You were able to defend yourself with firearms.

MR VEVEZA: We wouldn't ask for firearms because we didn't know what we were there to do. We knew what we were in that place, what we were supposed to do. We didn't know from the start.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you then go with a bayonet then if you didn't know what it entailed?

MR VEVEZA: We normally have bayonets with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, why did you feel that you couldn't request access to firearms when going into that operation?

MR VEVEZA: We were fully armed the way we were. There was no need for us to ask for a firearm. There was no need for us to all have - there was no need for us to have firearms, all of us.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you consider asking for a firearm and then deciding, look I don't think itís necessary for all of us to have firearms, one is sufficient? Is that so?

MR VEVEZA: We didn't consider that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think that Mr Biko's firearm was sufficient, with the other two having bayonets to complete the operation successfully? Do I understand your evidence correctly?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, that was enough for what we were there to do because we did manage to do it successfully.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about before you left on the mission, did you think that that was sufficient?

MR VEVEZA: I don't want you to ask me about before the operation because I didn't know about the operation before I was in Franciscato's home. I knew about it when I was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely, precisely. So you didn't know what the operation held out for you, why did you not request a firearm?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Mr Chairman. I think Mr Chairperson you don't find each, maybe on the interpretation. I don't know but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Will you tell what was supposed to be interpreted?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think the question is the mission, that he was aware of the mission. What he's saying in Xhosa is that he was not aware of the mission until they were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me clear that up.

You knew you were going on an APLA task force operation, not so? Correct?

MR VEVEZA: I was not addressed from the start about that. I hear that when I was in Franciscato's home, that we were there for an operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you go with Biko then when he told you to come with him?

MR VEVEZA: Because I'm used to going with him.

CHAIRPERSON: On operations?

MR VEVEZA: Even if we were just going to town sometimes we would be together because we were staying in one area.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. When you stopped outside Franciscato's house, did you not then realise that, look we're on an APLA task force mission now?

MR VEVEZA: What he told me was that we should go inside Franciscato's house. He then went through the gate. I didn't ask him anything because ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen inside that house?

MR VEVEZA: I knew what was going to happen there because he told me when we were at the gate.

CHAIRPERSON: What, what did he tell you?

MR VEVEZA: He told me that we were going to attack in that house and we were going to take firearms. What I asked him was whether we were going to find these firearms. He said yes, there were firearms. He knew that there were firearms in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: And you believed him?

MR VEVEZA: I believed him.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage you were armed with a bayonet.

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it that time that he pulled out the gun or only inside the house, that Biko pulled out the gun?

MR VEVEZA: When we were knocking at Franciscato's home he opened the door, he opened the upper door and he came and he pushed the door. He asked us what we were looking for. He then said - he asked him whether the lady by the name of Joyce was working there, Franciscato said "No". When he was pulling the door he then pulled out a firearm, Mabuti pulled out a firearm. He grabbed and pushed the door. He kicked him and he went inside.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So at the gate when you found out for the first time what the plan was, you would take firearms there, the only thing you knew of between the three of you is that you had a bayonet, correct?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you at that stage say: "Mabuti, we can't go take firearms when we are only armed with a bayonet, give me gun or let's go and fetch guns first"?

MR VEVEZA: I didn't think about that, I thought about what we were going to do there.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were not adequately equipped to go and fetch guns while only armed with, as far as you were concerned, one bayonet, not so?

MR VEVEZA: I had one bayonet and I was sure that I was going to take the firearms even though I was armed with one bayonet.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, isn't it that you were not able to access any firearms from the leadership of the PAC and that's why you were not able to request it and that's why you didn't have a firearm? The simple reason is that you were not acting in the name of the PAC?

MR VEVEZA: Please repeat your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't the reason why you were not in possession of a firearm on this escapade of yours, because you had no right to access firearms because you were not on a PAC mission?

MR VEVEZA: If I wanted a firearm I would have been given a firearm from the PAC but because Mabuti ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, why didn't you ask for one?

MR VEVEZA: There was nothing that I was going to do with a firearm, why was I supposed to ask for a

firearm?

CHAIRPERSON: Part of your policy, you say, is to kill white people, not so? Secondly, you were going to rob a white person of his firearms, did you think he was just going to give it to you? How were you going to comply with that policy?

MR VEVEZA: The policy of the PAC does not say that we should be armed when we were going on a mission to take the firearms from white people but we were there to get the firearms or to even kill that white person. The fact that I was supposed to have a firearm with me, I didn't even think about that because I knew that I would get a firearm from PAC when my commanders came straight to me and gave me an order to do something.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?

MR VEVEZA: Thank you, Chairperson. So who was your commander?

MR VEVEZA: My commander was Mabuti Biko, the one who was with me, because I would get everything from him.

MR MAPOMA: But weren't you saying that had your commander told you that you were going for an operation you would have asked for a gun from him? Haven't you just said that?

MR VEVEZA: I thought that you were asking about this specific operation. My commander was Tamsanqa Duma.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were under the command of Mabuti, isn't it?

MR VEVEZA: At that time.

CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you ask him for a firearm?

MR VEVEZA: There was nothing I was going to do with a firearm and Duma didn't tell me anything that needed a firearm, so I couldn't ask for the firearm from Mabuti.

MR MAPOMA: So when you went with Mabuti, you were not aware that you were going for an APLA task force operation, is that so?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Until you arrived at Franciscato's place?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Is it only then that you were instructed or you were advised that you are - in fact, were you advised at all that this is an APLA operation?

MR VEVEZA: Please repeat your question.

MR MAPOMA: When at Mr Franciscato's place, were you ever advised at all that this was an APLA operation or did you just understand it to be like that?

MR VEVEZA: Mabuti Biko, when we were at the gate, he told me that we were going inside that house to attack and to find firearms, so we had to find firearms and take them with us. I did what he told me to do.

MR MAPOMA: And you didn't know what you were going to do with the firearms?

MR VEVEZA: I knew because he told me that they were needed by an organisation, the PAC.

MR MAPOMA: When did he tell you that?

MR VEVEZA: He told me when we were at the gate by Franciscato's house, when he was telling me that we should go inside the house.

MR MAPOMA: Did he tell you that you have to kill Mr Franciscato?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, he told me that we should attack him.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] that he was going to be killed, not attacked.

MR VEVEZA: He told me that we should hit him. He didn't tell me that we were to kill him. I heard that from him when he was already killed.

MR MAPOMA: What did you hear from him when he was already killed? What is it that you heard from him?

MR VEVEZA: I heard a gunshot when I was in another room because he left the room that we were searching. He went to another room. Franciscato was with him. I then heard a gunshot.

I went from the room that we were in, I went to that room and I saw Franciscato on the ground and there was blood all over, even on the mirrors. I then asked what happened and he said he shot him. He told us to be careful of our fingerprints because if the police went there they would find our fingerprints, so we should be careful.

ADV DE JAGER: Who opened the trunk?

MR VEVEZA: Mabuti Biko was the one who opened the trunk because he was the first to be inside there, to be there.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he open it with his hands?

MR VEVEZA: When I got in there the trunk was already opened because when I got in there he was taking out firearms from the trunk, so it was already opened.

ADV DE JAGER: And what about his fingerprints on the trunk?

MR VEVEZA: That was wooden-made so the fingerprints would not be found in that trunk. He told us to be careful about iron, to be careful about touching glass or iron things. In the wooden-made things they would not find fingerprints.

ADV DE JAGER: Fine. Before you entered the house, did you know how many people were staying there?

MR VEVEZA: He was the one who knew the people who were staying there.

ADV DE JAGER: So when you accompanied him to this house he didn't tell you it was an operation of APLA, you only learnt that when you arrived at the house?

MR VEVEZA: We heard when we arrived in Franciscato's house, that the firearms we were looking for were needed by the PAC.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you hear it, after you went into the house or where?

MR VEVEZA: Before we went inside the house. When we were at the gate he told me because we didn't know that we were going inside that house.

ADV DE JAGER: So Mr Duma didn't give you any order to act on behalf of APLA or on behalf of the PAC?

MR VEVEZA: What happened is he sent someone to call me from home. He then said he would find me in Zukile Biko's place. When I arrived in Zukile Biko's place Mzuamadoda Yengeni and Mogeti were there. We waited for him, for Tamsanqa Duma because that was not his house.

ADV DE JAGER: Now he's the commander and you said, in your application you said you were instructed, in your affidavit, you were instructed by Mr Duma to carry out this operation but when did he instruct you to do so?

MR VEVEZA: Mr Duma didn't give me an instruction, he gave it to Mabuti Biko.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, yes. Sorry, I've got the wrong affidavit before me. So you didn't know that he instructed you to carry the operation? You didn't even know that you were going on an operation until you've been at the house, you arrived at the house?

MR VEVEZA: I knew when we arrived at that house that we were there for an operation. I didn't know before we got there.

ADV DE JAGER: No in your original application you said Mabuti Biko, George Mkweti and Yengeni were involved. Why did you mention Mkweti or Mkweri to be involved? He had nothing to do with this operation or was he involved?

MR VEVEZA: It is because he was called, he was there, but Mabuti told him to go back. So that is where I made a mistake because Mabuti Biko called him aside so he didn't come with us to the operation.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you mention his name as being one of the persons going on this operation? How could you make such a mistake?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I think I have to be clear because here in "Nature and particulars",, although the application is related to this offence, it does not necessarily mean that he says that they went together in this operation.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he go with you on another operation, when you robbed the cafe that afternoon?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I have a problem because people will be implicated and we are concerned with Mr Francisco and people who were involved in that matter. ...[indistinct]

CHAIRPERSON: Look, the name appears in the application isn't it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, the name appears in the application. I don't have a problem him asking about the application, the name of Mr ... but to ask him about another operation they apply for and they are going to mention people's names, then that is going to have problems, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, they are not here, they have not been informed.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said they haven't been informed?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I know that, Mr Chairperson, because we are here for this operation which involved Mr Francisco's house. It has nothing to do with other incidents.

ADV DE JAGER: Right, without mentioning names, were you involved in another operation that afternoon when a cafe was robbed?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, I was involved.

ADV DE JAGER: And you were found guilty of being in possession of this shotgun that you took from Mr Franciscato?

MR VEVEZA: They court found me guilty.

ADV DE JAGER: When the police arrested you weren't you in possession of that firearm?

MR VEVEZA: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you in possession of ammunition?

MR VEVEZA: They found two magazines from someone else who was not arrested, they didn't find it from me, and one bullet from a 2.2.

ADV DE JAGER: Weren't you found guilty of being in possession of this shotgun?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, I was found guilty because I was sentenced for that shotgun even though it was not with me.

ADV DE JAGER: With whom was it?

MR VEVEZA: It was with Mabuti Biko. We took it - we took all the firearms and Mabuti took them with him to Tamsanqa Duma.

ADV DE JAGER: And that afternoon, didn't you have a shotgun when you were involved in the robbery of the cafe?

MR VEVEZA: Yes. It had nothing to do with the firearms from Franciscato's home.

ADV DE JAGER: Was that another shogun you had?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, it was another shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get that one?

MR VEVEZA: From the cadres in Zwelitsha in King William's Town.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of day did that incident occur?

MR VEVEZA: It was after seven or before eight.

CHAIRPERSON: Now from Cato's house, you went straight to Mabuti's brother's house, not so?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then he left to a place you are unaware of. I mean you don't know where he went to, correct?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he come back after that?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, he came back.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened then?

MR VEVEZA: I told him that I was going to town.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, and then?

MR VEVEZA: I then went for another robbery.

CHAIRPERSON: Straight from Mabuti's brother's house?

MR VEVEZA: I left Mabuti Biko in the township. I went to town together with other comrades, Mzuamadoda Yengeni and Zukile Biko.

CHAIRPERSON: And performed this robbery in the shop?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Duma that day after the incident at Cato's house?

MR VEVEZA: I didn't see him that day, I saw him the next day late.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say he was your commander?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, in the training he was my commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who was your commander in giving you instructions? I thought you said Duma was that person.

MR VEVEZA: It happened sometimes that I would get instructions directly from him and he would give me arms but for this mission or operation I didn't get instructions directly from him. He gave Mabuti Biko instructions and I then got instructions from Mabuti Biko but when we were near Franciscato's house, when we were at the gate of Franciscato's home.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Mabuti after he left you at his brother's house?

MR VEVEZA: He came back to Zukile's house. We left him there, we went to town. I then met him in his place where he was staying. It was late that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he know - did Mabuti know what you went to do in town when you left him at his brother's house?

MR VEVEZA: No, we didn't tell him.

CHAIRPERSON: Now do you perform that action in that shop that night under instructions?

MR VEVEZA: No, we were not performing it under instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you knew where you were going to from Mabuti's house. When you were at Mabuti's brother's house, when you were at that house you knew you were going to that shop and what's going to happen there?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, we knew. I knew because I told them I was going back to town. They then said they wanted to go with me. On our way I told them we must go to that shop and shoot the Boers there.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we'll come to that. On that escapade how is it that you were armed when you went there? Did you ask for a firearm?

MR VEVEZA: That was not an organisation's firearm or I didn't get it from my commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get it from?

MR VEVEZA: I got it from Zukile Biko. I asked whether he had a firearm, he said yes, he can borrow me one.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you took the firearm because you knew you were going on a dangerous mission, not so?

MR VEVEZA: I was going there to rob, not under the instructions of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not what I asked. I'm asking you whether you realised the dangers that were associated with what you were going to do at that shop. You were aware of it, not so? Correct?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason you armed yourself before going there, in order to facilitate the execution of that mission?

MR VEVEZA: The reason for me to be armed was because I knew that I was going to shoot when I got in that shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Well why didn't you - why weren't you satisfied with the bayonet when you went to the shop, why did you want a firearm then?

MR VEVEZA: Because I knew what I was going to do there. I knew that I was going to shoot there. I could not shoot with a bayonet, I had to use a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, thank you, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

ADV DE JAGER: Did you shoot there at the cafe?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, I did.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you wound anybody?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: This attack at the house of Mr Franciscato, was it your first involvement as a PAC operative?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, that was the first one.

ADV SANDI: I notice that you have quite a number of previous convictions ranging from theft, in one instance a vehicle was stolen, housebreaking and so on. Do you know about that?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, I do .

ADV SANDI: Who were you involved with in the commission of those crimes?

MR VEVEZA: I was not doing these things for an organisation.

ADV SANDI: Who was with you when you committed those crimes?

MR VEVEZA: Putswana Skotile was there when we were stealing a car and Dumisani was also one of the people that I was doing these things with.

ADV SANDI: Dumisani who?

MR VEVEZA: I forgotten his surname.

ADV SANDI: When you were told by your co-applicant, Biko, for the first time, that is when you were in front of the gate at the house of Mr Franciscato? Where did you think you were going?

MR VEVEZA: He told me that we were going inside Franciscato's house when we were in front of the gate. I asked him what we were supposed to do. He said that we were to take firearms and we were to shoot him. I then asked him whether he knew that he had firearms in the house.

ADV SANDI: Before he told you what you were going to do, in your mind where did you think you were going?

MR VEVEZA: We were going to town. We were going to walk around town because he didn't tell us what we were going to do because we were used to going together to town or go and visit him.

ADV SANDI: You said you were trained in Fort Beaufort. Fort Beaufort is not a very small place, where exactly did you receive training there?

MR VEVEZA: At Khaka, in the bushes, Khaka.

ADV SANDI: How long did that training take?

MR VEVEZA: It can six or eight months.

ADV SANDI: Who was being trained with you?

MR VEVEZA: There were a lot people that were trained with me, Luazi, Mzuamadoda and other members of the PAC in Fort Beaufort.

ADV SANDI: Was anyone of your co-applicants trained with you?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Which one?

MR VEVEZA: Mzuamadoda Yengeni.

ADV SANDI: So what is the difference now here. We have this long list of previous convictions about you here, what is the difference between that and what you are now asking for amnesty for?

MR VEVEZA: The difference is what I've done now I did for PAC because I was commanded to do this as member of the PAC, by the member of the PAC. Those that I did before I didn't do them for PAC, nobody told me to do them.

I did them even though I was told that they were not right, but because I was smuggling I did those things.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I'm sorry. There's just one issue I want to still canvass. If the Chairperson can allow me.

Mr Veveza, you were a member of the PAC as far back as 1985 until you were arrested for this particular incident for which you seek amnesty, is that correct?

MR VEVEZA: Yes. It was not in 1985, it was in 1988.

MR MAPOMA: But in your amnesty application you said from 1985 until you were arrested, on page 2 of your application. Is it incorrect what is here?

MR VEVEZA: It was not from 1985. I was in prison in 1985.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, anyway let's say even from 1988 the other criminal activities you engaged in you were engaged in them while you were still a member of the PAC, is that correct?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And you knew that the PAC does not stand for those acts for which you were sentenced, is that so?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact when you went to rob a cafe after the Franciscato incident, you knew that that was not an APLA operation, isn't it so?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact APLA or PAC was ...[intervention]

MR VEVEZA: PAC.

MR MAPOMA: Ja. ... didn't have - those actions were in conflict with the PAC policy?

MR VEVEZA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: So when you were a PAC cadre, at some stage you used to get into your personal criminal activities, is that correct?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, Mr Veveza, you said you joined the PAC in 1988.

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And in 1990 you joined this task force, correct?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were directly answerable to Mabuti under the command of Duma and perhaps even Dlamini, correct?

MR VEVEZA: Mabuti was from APLA outside. I was inside under Duma.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that time you were in constant contact with these people, correct?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When you first joined them, do I understand you correctly?

MR VEVEZA: I don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the time you were being trained in firearms etc., in 1990?

MR VEVEZA: I was trained to use firearms when I was trained for the task, when I joined the task force.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was in 1990?

MR VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What part of 1990 did that occur? Was it in the early part of 1990 or in the late part or whatever? I'm looking for a date or at least a month.

MR VEVEZA: I started in April 1990, when I joined task force.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long did the training last?

MR VEVEZA: If I remember well it took seven months because it ranges from six to eight months.

CHAIRPERSON: You see why I ask this question is because you started a prison sentence of eight months on the 24th of August 1990 and you were away from the activities of the task force for eight months, until the 15th of April 1991 when you were freed on parole. Do you recall that?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, I do recall that but that is why I'm saying I'm not sure whether it was in 1990 or in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you not sure of?

MR VEVEZA: I'm not sure when I joined the task force.

CHAIRPERSON: It's the first time you're saying you weren't sure of that. In any event ...[intervention]

MR VEVEZA: I did say that from the start, that I was not sure whether I joined in 1990 or 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a member of the PAC prior to that, now didn't you have to explain to any of your superiors where you'd been? A member just gets missing, he spends eight months in prison, was there no way that you informed the superiors or that they asked you: "Man, you're a member of this organisation but you disappear now and then and nobody knows what's going on"?

MR VEVEZA: I couldn't do that, I couldn't tell them when I did my personal things because I wouldn't put this on their shoulders but I would tell when I came back that I'm from a certain place.

CHAIRPERSON: Which would not be the truth?

MR VEVEZA: I would tell them the truth when I was coming back. I wouldn't tell them ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: From prison? Would you tell your superiors in the organisation that you'd just come from prison?

MR VEVEZA: That was not an important thing to do.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not too sure that you're right because I would imagine any organisation who was running a struggle, particularly an armed struggle, would be very careful about the quality of the people they had within their operation, but that's besides the point. You are saying you did not disclose where you came from. to them or did you?

MR VEVEZA: What I'm saying is, when I would be arrested I wouldn't tell PAC that I was arrested because ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But when you came back to the PAC or the task force ...[intervention]

MR VEVEZA: But when I came back I would tell them that. If they asked where I was all the time, I would then tell them that I was from prison and I would tell them why I was in prison and they would say that those were things that I was not supposed to do when I was a member of PAC. I should be careful about such things.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you tell me why do we have to struggle to get that kind of answer out of you? It's a simple question, a simple answer.

MR VEVEZA: If you listened carefully I answered this question the way I just answered.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. So you just repeated yourself, correct?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, I repeated myself.

CHAIRPERSON: How many operations were you involved in under the auspices of that task force which you joined in 1990 or 1991?

MR VEVEZA: I made one application, this one. If I was involved in other operations I would have made applications.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. That's a smart answer.

MR VEVEZA: I wouldn't make an application for something that I was not ordered to do by the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, do I assume then by your answer that the operation regarding the shooting and robbing of Mr Franciscato is the one and only operation that you were involved in under the auspices of this task force?

MR VEVEZA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do in the task force since 1990 then? This operation occurred in 1992, in September.

MR VEVEZA: What happened in September.

CHAIRPERSON: You went to Cato's house and he got killed and you took firearms at approximately 5 o'clock that night. The same day you went to rob that shop, that's what happened on that day. Do you follow?

MR VEVEZA: I've already explained to the Committee what I was trained to do in the task force. This was not the only thing that we were supposed to do under the task force. Even though we're not against it, even if we were given instructions by our commander.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to give you another opportunity then to answer the question. Was the application with which we are now busy, the only operation that you were involved in and was under the auspices of this task force?

MR VEVEZA: Yes. Other things that I was doing under the task force, I was working in the community and I was organising things for the organisation. If there was a rally I would be involved, I would guard so that nothing would disturb the members of the PAC who would be in that rally.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be the jobs of the task force or of the cadres in other units of PAC, like marshals or so on?

MR VEVEZA: I was never trained as a PAC cadres, I was referring to what I was doing under the task force. I was telling you about what I was doing for the task force. We were not focusing only on killing, there were other things that we were doing for the task force.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to ask you, in order to give you a fair chance or to be fair to you, the same question I asked the previous witness. Was this not something that occurred outside the organisation?

MR VEVEZA: No, we did this for the organisation, we did this for the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you hope to gain by it?

MR VEVEZA: We were not hoping to gain anything but what we wanted was our land or our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Then you must be very surprised to learn that Mr Duma says:

"I ordered the unit which was commanded by Mabuti Biko to kill and repossess weapons from the house of Mr Franciscato to be used to defend us against the ANC aggression and also to carry out the struggle forward".

These weapons were needed to defend the PAC against the ANC's aggression and not to take your land back.

And not to take your land back.

MR VEVEZA: He knows what he wanted these weapons for. I didn't want these weapons. I just went there because the organisation needed the weapons. They were not going to be used by me.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We'll adjourn till a quarter to two.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 8TH OCTOBER 1998

NAME: MZUAMADODA YENGENI

MATTER: DEATH OF MR FRANCISCATO AND ROBBERY OF FIREARMS

DAY: 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

ON RESUMPTION

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now my next applicant is Mzuamadoda Yengeni.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Yengeni, what language would you prefer to use?

MR YENGENI: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Yengeni, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR YENGENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Mr Chairperson, the only thing I would like to correct is the date in paragraph is 1976, not 1972.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Yengeni, can you tell the Committee in your own words, your role you played in the incident where Mr Franciscato was killed? What role did you play?

MR YENGENI: What happened in is, we were from Gunti township, we were from Gunti location. There were three of us. It was myself, Mabuti Biko and Winile Veveza. There was a message that we got that we were supposed to go there and I was one of the people who were there with Winile Veveza.

We waited for the person who called us. Mabuti Biko then arrived and he said that we should go with him to town. We went to town with him, with Winile Veveza. When we arrived in town we went through Alice Street. In Alice Street what happened is I stood outside next to the gate.

Mabuti and Winile Veveza went inside. When they were inside - when they were going inside Mabuti Biko said that we were there for an operation, we were there to take arms of firearms for the organisation. I was expecting such a thing.

They went inside and they kicked this white man and then they went inside. When we were inside we searched the rooms, the whole house. Whilst we were searching we heard a shot in one of the room inside the house. When we heard that sound I continued searching.

After that I went to another room and I then saw Mabuti Biko taking out firearms from that room. We finished that and then we left the place. We arrived next to the river and he asked us whether we took something from the house. He then searched us and he didn't find anything else. We went to Zukile Biko. When we arrived at Zukile Biko's place, Mabuti Biko then left. He was going to meet with Tamsanqa Duma and he left us behind. That is what I can say about the incident.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What were you armed with when you went there?

MR YENGENI: I was armed with a bayonet.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you use the bayonet?

MR YENGENI: No, I didn't use that bayonet.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

So when Mr Franciscato was shot at, you did not witness that?

MR YENGENI: I heard a sound. I was in another room when the sound or when the shot was fired.

MR MAPOMA: And then you came thereafter, when he was already shot at?

MR YENGENI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Then you - it's only thereafter that you searched for the weapons?

MR YENGENI: After that my co-accused had left that room. He went to the room with the trunk where the weapons were. He then took out the firearms and then we left.

MR MAPOMA: So you did not first take the weapons and then thereafter shoot at him and leave him, that's not how it happened?

MR YENGENI: He told us about the weapons - Mr Franciscato told Mabuti Biko where the weapons were when they were together. We then went to that place and took the weapons and then we left.

MR MAPOMA: So when you took the weapons - what I want to get clear here, when you took the weapons he was already dead, Mr Franciscato?

MR YENGENI: Yes, he was already dead.

MR MAPOMA: So it's not correct to say that you shot at him when you were about to leave or when you were leaving?

MR YENGENI: He was shot when we were already searching on the other side, when Mabuti Biko was trying to find out where the weapons were. When he found that information he then shot him. We then took the firearms and we left.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None at this stage, Mr Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't he shot with one of the weapons that you found in the house?

MR YENGENI: Mabuti Biko who was with him on that side, he went there with a weapon that was with him. I can say that he used the weapon he had.

ADV DE JAGER: Because as far as I could gather he was shot with a shotgun and his brains was against the mirror and so on.

MR YENGENI: I wouldn't be able to answer that Sir, because I was not the one who shot him.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you see his brains against the mirror?

MR YENGENI: I noticed that - I heard about that when we were in court, when they showed us the photographs of the deceased.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you receive training in arms, weaponry?

MR YENGENI: Yes, I knew how to use a firearm because I was trained in Fort Beaufort under the task force.

ADV DE JAGER: In your application you say that you've benefitted, on the questions 10(c):

"Yes, I did benefit"

If so, explain the nature and extent of such benefits, and then you say:

"I got the arms, ammunition and money"

What money did you get?

MR YENGENI: The money that is referred to here is not from Mr Franciscato's home, it's another incident.

ADV DE JAGER: So you were involved in - the other incident, was that politically related?

MR YENGENI: Yes, it was related to politics.

ADV DE JAGER: Why?

MR YENGENI: The reason why I'm saying it had something to do with politics, everything that I did I did it under the organisation.

ADV DE JAGER: Now who ordered you to do the other robbery, the one at the cafe?

MR YENGENI: Nobody gave me an instruction. I went to that robbery because, and after that I reported to my commander in the township. I told him about what we did, after the robbery.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't have any orders to do that?

MR YENGENI: No, I didn't get an order, I reported afterwards.

ADV DE JAGER: But you knew you shouldn't take money if you act on behalf of the PAC, wasn't that so?

MR YENGENI: What I can say, I can't say it is so or not because if money was found it was going to be used, it can be used to help the organisation.

ADV DE JAGER: Now why were you searched about an hour before that to see whether you'd taken money from Mr Franciscato?

MR YENGENI: The reason for us to be searched - the person who searched us will be able to tell why he was searching us.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't know why he searched you?

MR YENGENI: No, but I heard it from him when he was telling us why he was searching us.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he tell you why he was searching you?

MR YENGENI: Yes, he said that he didn't want us maybe to hide something like a watch if we found it there, maybe there would be somebody who would recognise the watch and then they would find evidence and we would be arrested, and we were not doing that to be arrested.

ADV DE JAGER: And he didn't search you for money?

MR YENGENI: He didn't get money.

ADV DE JAGER: I asked, did he search you for money? Did he look for money?

MR YENGENI: I wouldn't say he was looking for money, he was searching for everything that would give evidence to the police so that we could be arrested. That's what I thought.

ADV DE JAGER: But now what about the gun, the police could arrest you on the gun. That could be recognised, it's got a number.

MR YENGENI: Please repeat your question, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: On stealing the gun, the gun could be traced by the police because the gun had a number. Weren't you afraid of being traced by the police because you took the gun?

MR YENGENI: Yes, I do know that the guns had numbers. We knew that those weapons were not going to stay with us, they would be taken away.

ADV DE JAGER: Who instructed you to commit the robbery and the killing of Mr Francisco Cato?

MR YENGENI: It was Mr Biko.

ADV SANDI: Where did he instruct you, where were you when he told you that you should get involved in this?

MR YENGENI: He gave us an instruction when we were at Mr Franciscato's house. He told us that we were going to take firearms there. I then looked for any person who was coming. I then followed them after they entered the house.

ADV SANDI: Before he told you that, where did you think you were going?

MR YENGENI: When we were with him, that was not a strange thing because we used to go with him, he used to visit my area. We'd go with him to town.

ADV SANDI: Had you been involved in a similar operation with him before that day?

MR YENGENI: No.

ADV SANDI: You mean to say that he had not before then instructed you to do anything similar to what he was telling you to do that day?

MR YENGENI: No.

ADV SANDI: This was your first operation as a member of APLA?

MR YENGENI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you get involved in any similar operation after this one?

MR YENGENI: No.

ADV SANDI: That place where you say you came from before you proceeded to the house of Mr Franciscato, did any discussion take place there between anyone who was there, concerning an attack?

MR YENGENI: No, we didn't discuss that.

ADV SANDI: What was discussed there, if anything was discussed?

MR YENGENI: We didn't discuss anything, we were waiting for the person who sent the message and we didn't know what he wanted. We couldn't assume what the person was going to say.

ADV SANDI: What were you doing before you got involved in this operation? Did you carry out any tasks as a member of APLA?

MR YENGENI: No.

ADV SANDI: You joined APLA in 1991, not so?

MR YENGENI: I joined task force in 1991.

ADV SANDI: And between 1991 and the day you got involved in the attack at the house Mr Franciscato, you had not carried out any functions as an APLA member?

MR YENGENI: No, except for this one there was nothing else I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.

ADV DE JAGER: Could I just ask one question?

The money that you referred here to you say was in a later operation, later that afternoon?

MR YENGENI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And you reported it to your leader, who was he?

MR YENGENI: I took it to Mr Tamsanqa Duma who was my commander in the community.

ADV DE JAGER: And did you give the money to him?

MR YENGENI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: All the money?

MR YENGENI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: How much was it?

MR YENGENI: I didn't count how much it was.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you give him anything else?

MR YENGENI: No, it was only the money.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you have a weapon?

MR YENGENI: No, I only had a bayonet.

ADV DE JAGER: At Mr Franciscato's place, and later on in the afternoon, the other robbery?

MR YENGENI: No, I was not armed.

ADV DE JAGER: How many weapons were used at the later robbery?

MR YENGENI: There was a bayonet and a firearm.

ADV DE JAGER: Only one firearm and one bayonet?

MR YENGENI: Yes, I had a bayonet.

ADV DE JAGER: I want to know, did other people have - because inasfar as I could see two firearms were used at the other place.

MR YENGENI: Mr Veveza was the one who had a firearm. There was only one firearm.

ADV DE JAGER: Was it only you and Mr Veveza involved there?

MR YENGENI: Together with Zukile Biko.

ADV DE JAGER: The three of you?

MR YENGENI: Yes, the three of us.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, at this stage I'm calling Tamsanqa Duma.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Duma, which language would you like to use?

MR DUMA: English.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

TAMSANQA DUMA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Duma, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before this Committee ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Before you start - Mr Duma, do you realise that the evidence that you may be giving in this matter may implicate you in a criminal matter?

MR DUMA: I understand.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you notwithstanding that prepared to give evidence even if this may lead to your conviction later?

MR DUMA: Okay. Can you repeat your question, Sir?

ADV DE JAGER: I only want to make you aware of it that I don't all that you are going to say in this matter but it may be that this may implicate you in the committing of a criminal offence and that it may lead even to your prosecution at a later stage. Whether you're aware of it and whether you're, notwithstanding that you are prepared to give evidence.

MR DUMA: I'm not aware of the prosecution but what can I say is that I am prepared to give evidence as I have given the instructions.

ADV DE JAGER: Alright.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The affidavit which is in front of you is also before this Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR DUMA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Duma, you were here when the applicants were giving evidence. Now can you in your own words tell the Committee what role you played in this incident regarding the killing of Mr Franciscato and also the taking away of arms, ammunition at his place?

MR DUMA: In this incident I was a local commander by the time I gave the instructions to the unit commander to go and repossess arms, of which I told him that: "For the recovery of the arms your enemy could not just hand over the arms without fighting or without resistance. You will go and kill and repossess arms otherwise it will be you and your unit, the people who will die there if you cannot do as I'm telling you". So I instructed Mabuti Biko as a commander of one of the units which I had at that time at Fort Beaufort, to go and do this mission.

ADV SANDI: Where did you say he must go?

MR DUMA: I instructed them to go at Fort Beaufort town at Alice Street.

ADV SANDI: Is that the house of Mr Franciscato?

MR DUMA: That's correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what your reason was for giving such instructions?

MR DUMA: My first reason for that, on my arrival from prison in 1991, I think it was after May because I was arrested for the Terrorism Act, under the Terrorism Act and then I arrived at home at Fort Beaufort. I got that the PAC structures are not there as well as the PAC membership, it was scattered because of the situation between the PAC and the ANC. As well as our children were being chased away from the schools and our houses. Most of the house were being burnt down as well as the police forces there, they were sympathising with the ANC followers or members. And then as the first person to arrive there or as the first APLA cadre to arrive at home that year, I've taken some decisions that I'm going to build, re-build the strong party structures including the task forces, especially the task forces for the defence of the party PAC structure as well as the PAC component structures so that they can operate on the ground like any other party without being threatened. Also to carry on with the struggle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Finally, Mr Duma, what you are telling this Committee is that what was done by the applicants was an order from yourself?

MR DUMA: That's correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

ADV SANDI: Mr Duma, where were you when you gave this instruction to Mr Biko?

MR DUMA: Pardon?

MR DUMA: When you gave the instruction to Mr Biko that the house of Mr Franciscato be attacked and arms repossessed, where were you?

MR DUMA: I was at home by the time.

ADV SANDI: Who was with you?

MR DUMA: My family was with me but by the time I gave him the instructions we were together in one room.

ADV SANDI: It was just the two of you?

MR DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you say to him who he should involve in this?

MR DUMA: I told him that I will arrange from the pool of APLA, which are the task forces, the forces which, I will nominate the forces which they will operate with him.

ADV SANDI: Who were those going to be?

MR DUMA: I elected four forces by the time. He elected Winile Veveza, Mzuamadoda Yengeni, Mogeti - I'm sorry, I nominated Mogeti and Winile Veveza as well as Mzuamadoda Yengeni.

ADV SANDI: Did you say when and what time they should carry out this instruction?

MR DUMA: I didn't tell him specifically but what I, according to my plans I told him the right time of starting the operation, especially around the time of five up to seven because I know most of the people at that time they are inside the houses and the others are washing themselves, others are having supper. So they don't expect anything at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Duma, you say after you instructed Mr Biko, you said you arrange the forces with whom he was going to be involved, do you remember that?

MR DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: What do you mean by that?

MR DUMA: As I know that he, Mr Biko is a trained member of APLA, a full trained member, and he arrived alone as I requested from the high command of APLA, to get one cadre for the problem I have discovered at Fort Beaufort and they also knew that I'm also a cadre of APLA but I'm under surveillance because I'm coming out of prison under amnesty of which I didn't apply for it. I told them that I can't operate by myself and things are like that. And being a local commander taking part for the survival of the PAC at Fort Beaufort, I must get one cadres, a person whom he knows clearly the terrain of Fort Beaufort.

So they gave me one APLA cadre of which I knew that I have 17 units of the task forces which I have already built from 1991. I told that I have no problem to get the upperhand, the helping hand because the task forces are already there, so I only want one cadre so that he can command them in that operation.

MR MAPOMA: So you say you nominated these applicants together with Mogeti?

MR DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: What do you mean by saying you nominated them?

MR DUMA: I choose them from amongst many, many people, many forces I had at the time. That the best people who can go and carry on this operation are this one and this one and this one and I decided to take them.

ADV SANDI: Did they agree to that?

MR DUMA: I can say yes, because what I usually told them during their training, if the call is there it is there, no-one will say no or no-one will defy the order. If I want to see you, I want to see you. If I say I want to see you in such a place you must be there at that time I say I want you to be there. So that is why they have decided to be there at that time and then Mr Biko got them at that place.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying you are the person who instructed them to go with Mr Biko? Do I understand you to be saying that?

MR DUMA: In all it is given that it is me because it is also I who have instructed Mr Biko to go to Mr Zukile's house so that he could get the forces, the people that are going to operate with him.

ADV SANDI: I'm sorry Mr Mapoma, I don't want unduly interrupt you.

Let us get this clear now. What you mean here is that you spoke with Veveza, you spoke with Yengeni and you spoke with Mogeti and you said: "I want you to be involved in this operation with Biko. I want you to go and attack the house of Mr Franciscato", and they agreed to that, is that what you are saying?

MR DUMA: No. I gave the orders direct to Mr Biko. I ordered them, I sent one of our comrades to make a contact that, to Mr Yengeni and Mr Veveza as well as Mogeti, that I want to meet with them in Zukile's house around three in the afternoon, knowing that at that time they will expect me to be there and then at that time I knew that I will send Mr Biko, Mr Mabuti Biko so that he can meet with them. And then as they knew that he was at Fort Beaufort by the time, because it was about a week he was there, and then he just talked to them that he wants to see them, as he told the Committee what he did by the time they met there. As he was instructed by me.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Chair.

So you say you instructed them to be available at a particular place to meet Mr Biko?

MR DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And you were not there to tell them that: "You guys are going to go with Mr Biko and Biko is going to be commander", that's not what you did?

MR DUMA: I was not there physically.

MR MAPOMA: So in a way Mr Biko just took them and left with them?

MR DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And they not knowing where they were going?

MR DUMA: Definitely as a commander he was supposed to tell them. I mean the situation was depending at him as a commander, when to tell them or where to tell them.

MR MAPOMA: So you instructed Mr Biko, as you said in your evidence, that: "You go and kill in order to get weapons", do I understand you correctly?

MR DUMA: Yes, I(?) understand it.

MR MAPOMA: So the purpose, the ultimate objective was to get weapons?

MR DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: So if they managed to get weapons without necessarily killing there would be no need to kill? Is that what I understand from your instructions?

MR DUMA: If they could get weapons without the presence of the enemy, because under the PAC politics we all understand who is the enemy. We distinguish between the enemy and the people who are oppressed. So in the operation and even by the time I was training the forces, there was nothing I was telling anyone without killing the Boers because I grew up knowing that the Boers are busy with their business killing the African people for their survival, of which they were supposed to kill for our survival too.

It doesn't matter he just say: "There are the weapons in the cupboard", at the back he will call the police and if they give resistance against the police the police will shoot to kill them. So they were forced to kill so that he cannot give evidence to anyone.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but what I want to understand correctly, Mr Duma, is whether by killing Mr Franciscato when the weapons were already discovered, Mr Biko was carrying out your order still?

MR DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

ADV SANDI: When did you know Mr Winile Veveza, when did you get to know him or of him for the first time and where was that?

MR DUMA: It was after my release during 1991.

ADV SANDI: In what context did you meet him?

MR DUMA: He came to join the PAC task force at Fort Beaufort.

ADV SANDI: And Mzuamadoda Yengeni, when and where did you meet him for the fist time?

MR DUMA: Fort Beaufort too, under the task force.

ADV SANDI: Have you ever given instructions, was it the first time that you gave instructions to be carried out by, let's start by Winile Veveza, had you given an instruction to Winile Veveza before?

MR DUMA: No, the only instructions which they got from me were just the instructions of the training but not the operative instructions.

ADV SANDI: In spite of all the problems your organisation had in Fort Beaufort, you had never given any instruction to Winile Veveza to be of assistance in solving those problems?

MR DUMA: No, because he was not one of the task force commanders because we also had, I also had by the time the task force commanders locally.

ADV SANDI: Before you said they must go and attack Mr Franciscato, had you ever given an instruction to Mzuamadoda Yengeni?

MR DUMA: No.

ADV SANDI: It was the first time?

MR DUMA: It was for the first time I nominated them, elected them to be involved in an operation.

ADV SANDI: After the attack on Mr Franciscato, did you give any further instructions to Veveza Yengeni?

MR DUMA: No.

ADV SANDI: That was the first and the last instruction you gave to these two gentlemen?

MR DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What information did you have about Mr Franciscato, why did you say they must go and attack there?

MR DUMA: After the reconnaissance by their commander, Mr Biko, he told me that there is also another place which he knows that it also has arms and that place is, should be easy for him to operate there because that area is out, a little bit out of town, close to the station which is that station also close to the river so it will be easy for their way out. And then I said to him: "You can also nominate it as a first priority".

ADV SANDI: So when Veveza and Yengeni got involved in this attack on Mr Franciscato, there had not been any direct communication between yourself and any one of them?

MR DUMA: No, they knew nothing about the operation, they were just waiting to see me and instead they saw Mr Biko.

ADV SANDI: How did you make them aware that they should expect to meet you at this place, how did you communicate that to them?

MR DUMA: As I said before, I sent one of our comrades, PAC member because we used to do so if we want to meet. I just gave the place and sent someone to the comrades that I want to see them at that place and give the time then they usually too would do the same thing.

ADV SANDI: Were you aware of the long records of previous convictions in respect of Biko and Veveza?

MR DUMA: No, I was not aware because they were under the control of their task force commanders of which they didn't come and report to us that someone was not present. Because for instance, Mr Veveza is staying a little bit far in the township, in the village, so we, he'll just usually meet with me during the time we are in the bush.

ADV SANDI: In the context of those problems you say prevailed between the PAC and the ANC in that town of Fort Beaufort, would anyone have given instructions to Biko, Veveza and Yengeni to do anything by way of being part of the solution to those problems?

MR DUMA: I can't say yes, because what I know and what I did, I was busy, ordered their commanders what to do because I knew that during that time the SDU's as well as the marshals, the so-called Amabutofenci(?), were busy making their sporadic attacks so I was busy teaching them how to react against those attacks and so on. So I really don't know what was their command to their task forces but I was very close with the task force commanders by the time.

ADV SANDI: As far as you know the policy of your organisation, what is the position regarding persons with long records of criminal convictions? What is the attitude about such people?

MR DUMA: We don't recognise them as the freedom fighters although we understand that we regard them at the ...[indistinct] but we don't agree with them to do such acts of theft and rapes and so on.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that your organisation would somehow find itself embarrassed to be associated with such people?

MR DUMA: Yes, but if someone has joined the PAC, even if the PAC who was recruiting that person was fully aware or is being aware that the person is like this but he, one thing we understand is that a person can reform if there's someone who can show him the right way and he also accepts that this is the right way which the person is busy recruiting him for.

ADV SANDI: If a member of a task force who I'm sure you'll agree, is involved in sensitive operations, if that person disappears for a number of months, is that something that would cause a raising of eyebrows as far your commanders would be concerned? Would that be a matter of concern?

MR DUMA: I think we have rules under the problem of the people who defy the rules of the APLA task forces.

ADV SANDI: I'm not - sorry, I'm not talking about defying, I'm talking about a person simply disappearing, would that be a matter of concern to you?

MR DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Duma.

ADV DE JAGER: How many weapons were you handed?

MR DUMA: There were four.

ADV DE JAGER: What kind of weapons?

MR DUMA: It was a long rifle, 2.2 with two triggers and two barrels and 3 pistols.

ADV DE JAGER: No shotgun?

MR DUMA: It was a rifle, 2.2 and three pistols.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you handed money on that day?

MR DUMA: The following day.

ADV DE JAGER: The following day. How much?

MR DUMA: It was not too much, I think round about

R1000, 3 or 4.

ADV DE JAGER: Round about R1 300,00 or R1 400,00. For what purpose was this money?

MR DUMA: They told me that they have money ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Who told you that?

MR DUMA: Mzuamadoda, the youngest one, Yengeni. Of which the money was with him and then he said he wants to hand over this money to me and I said: "No, no problem you can hand over the money".

ADV DE JAGER: Did he tell you where he got the money from?

MR DUMA: He didn't inform me.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't you suspect that he got the money from Mr Franciscato?

MR DUMA: By the way I was thinking.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you think he got the money from Mr Franciscato?

MR DUMA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you give any instructions about taking money from Mr Franciscato?

MR DUMA: No, but I was not against that because I knew that we didn't have money and if the fighters are in the operation and they got money, it is good for them to grab that money so that we can sustain the armed struggle.

ADV DE JAGER: And did you ask him whether he's handing over all the money that he'd taken or didn't you ask him?

MR DUMA: I didn't ask them, money.

ADV DE JAGER: So maybe he'd taken R10 000,00 and he's only handing R1 000,00 to you, you wouldn't know?

MR DUMA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: On going to Mr Franciscato, how did you know he had weapons?

MR DUMA: Mr Biko informed me about this house of which it was not the real main target of that day but he gave me that information that there is also a house, this place.

ADV DE JAGER: What was the real main target on that day?

MR DUMA: At that day I told them that I want them to go, I want him to do this operation in town and in town I knew that there are people who used to be in front of a museum in Durban Street at Fort Beaufort. They used to pack their cars there of which during the night they guard the museum because there are also some guns and so on there.

And from there, if those people are there, definitely the station wagon car which will be packed under the tree, that is the very car which it had a lot of weapons and in the same Durban Street there is a house next to Savoy. I know the guy is working at Ellerines and he's a soldier, he's a part-time soldier and he has a lot of weapons because someone was working there in the garden and he bring the information and he went there looking for a job deliberately so that he can collect the information I was looking for. And then he gave me this information that no, there's another house because his mother was working there.

So in his reconnaissance he has discovered that that house it will be the first easy target for him, so I gave him that house as a first priority.

ADV DE JAGER: And why didn't you give him further orders later on? You've testified that was the only mission he had been ordered to carry out.

MR DUMA: There were so many operations of course for that night but things were not well after he came back to me.

ADV DE JAGER: But the following day?

MR DUMA: The following day already the police were busy investigating, so many police and detectives cars, so I stopped them to carry on.

ADV DE JAGER: And after a few weeks?

MR DUMA: After a few weeks according to the information which I got from other forces in the township, that the people are suspicious of Mr Biko. I knew that there's something wrong concerning that operation and then I decided to take him out of the town.

ADV DE JAGER: You really needed these weapons, according to your affidavit, to protect yourself against the ANC?

MR DUMA: I needed those weapons urgently to carry our struggle forward, the armed struggle, as APLA was waging the armed struggle by the time, as well as the protection of the PAC members at Fort Beaufort because I knew that I will give the weapons to the commanders of the task forces so that they could arm themselves as well as the task forces to gain a certain portion of that township so that it can be the side of the PAC as the ANC was nearly taking the whole township under their control. So they were supposed to fight back with firearms because the ANC was shooting.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they kill any of your people?

MR DUMA: Yes, they killed.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you give any weapon to Mr Veveza that afternoon?

MR DUMA: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you leave any weapons with Mr Biko, Mabuti? The other one, what is his name?

MR DUMA: Yengeni.

ADV DE JAGER: Zukile Biko, did you give him any weapons?

MR DUMA: No, but I understand he should have a weapon because he was one of the task force commandos, commanders there.

ADV DE JAGER: What happened to the weapons that got from Mr Franciscato?

MR DUMA: I took the weapons to Transkei for a change so that I can get another weapons.

ADV DE JAGER: And you say you didn't have any - there wasn't any shotgun with those weapons?

MR DUMA: Yes, because they gave me three pistols and a rifle, 2.2.

ADV SANDI: How were they to launch the attack at Durban Street with bayonets?

MR DUMA: By the way their commander had explained to me about that house, I've seen that there was no use of handing over maybe two or three pistols to him. I just gave him one .38 because he told me that maybe he will get that guy alone or if they are two they are not a problem.

ADV SANDI: You say there were many places to be attacked that evening, did you say that?

MR DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Who knew about such places?

MR DUMA: It was our comrades in the township who were busy collecting the information which I trained them to go and collect in town.

ADV SANDI: Had Biko, Veveza and Yengeni been briefed about such possible targets?

MR DUMA: No, because by the time I was believing in one thing, that I can't tell you of the operation of which I don't know what would you think thereafter. I can tell about the operation and then thereafter I can't get hold of you and then the operation will carry on. After that the information will leak because the operation just carried and you was not there and then you'll talk about that operation.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear that Veveza and Yengeni say, as far as they were concerned this was just one of those walks to town with Biko?

MR DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Do you have anything to say about that, do you have any comment? Why was that if they were going to be involved in this attack at the house of Cat?

MR DUMA: It was good for them not to understand where to because their commander knew where were they going to, that is why he told them on the way that: "We are going to do this and this and this".

ADV SANDI: He actually told them at the gate in front of the house.

MR DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Not even on the way.

MR DUMA: As I've said before it depends to the commander to tell you at what time or where. They must just listen from him and execute the orders.

ADV SANDI: If you required these weapons in order to be able to defend your members against the ANC aggression, why was it necessary then to kill Mr Franciscato?

MR DUMA: For the duty of that Mr Biko as a APLA cadre, not a member of the task force, it was part and parcel of his duties because he knew that in his operations he must go direct to the enemy, not - the task force ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Then why didn't he just shoot like Barend Strydom, all the whites that he came across?

MR DUMA: Unfortunately we are not being trained the same and secondly we don't the same way. If you are fighting as a guerrilla you are fighting for the total

liberation of your country. You don't just come out, because if you are fighting with the enemy unconventionally, you are supposed to play safe all the time. You are not supposed to just sell yourself because he was supposed to be convicted or arrested by mistake or die by mistake.

So in the guerrilla warfare you can't just go out and shoot the people like what Barend Strydom did. That is not a guerrilla warfare.

CHAIRPERSON: How many whites did you order to be killed?

MR DUMA: If I shoot ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, how many white people have you ordered to be killed?

MR DUMA: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I have this problem, that the firearms were already acquired when Mr Franciscato was killed. What was the purpose of killing him when you already acquired possession of the firearms?

MR DUMA: As I've said before he was right because I told him that I don't want anything after the operation which will come or become, cause the follow-up of the forces who were operating there. He must make it a point that there is no information which will come out.

ADV SANDI: How many times have you given an order that a white person be killed, if you can remember the number of white people who were killed as the result of instructions and orders from you?

MR DUMA: I can't remember because there are so many.

ADV SANDI: 10, 20, 30, 40?

MR DUMA: I can't count because I was not concerned about that.

ADV SANDI: How many times have you given orders that other black people be killed as the result of organisational political conflicts? Due to that conflict that was taking place in Fort Beaufort between the PAC and ANC, how many times did you give instructions that some people be killed?

MR DUMA: It was for the first time at Fort Beaufort because our political struggle was not direct to the oppressed people, it doesn't matter if we differ ideologically. But it was for the first time at Fort Beaufort. And I've been given those order at last because they didn't want to speak with us or to talk to us and they went far until they burnt my house of which I think by the time you was defending them, if I'm not mistaken ...[intervention] ...[inaudible]

ADV SANDI: That was not me, that was my brother, sorry.

MR DUMA: ...[inaudible]

ADV SANDI: Sorry, I didn't follow you. How many people did you say were killed there as the result of orders issued by you?

MR DUMA: At Fort Beaufort? For that first day they burnt our houses down, my house, two of them died in front of my house.

ADV SANDI: In your affidavit you say when you released

from prison you learnt that there was this conflict between the two organisations, what was your first step to try and have this conflict resolved?

MR DUMA: I tried - in the first place, I tried to go to Nibiba(?) High School and ...[intervention]

ADV SANDI: Very briefly Mr Duma, because this is not really relevant.

MR DUMA: I tried to meet with the ANC people, and we met in another primary school. We tried to talk about this with the involvement of Nonabo Bongo(?). It was the MK cadre.

ADV SANDI: You tried peaceful means.

MR DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you ...[indistinct].

MR DUMA: But from that night they, instead things were worse during the evening of that night. From there they made some petitions, went to the police requesting to drive the PAC members of the towns. They were not allowed even to go and buy in the shops. Even the shop owners, they didn't want to sell their food to the PAC members. They ask you first where do you belong and so on. Chasing the people out schools. That's where I changed my attitude. I've decided that I'm not going to talk again because they were being chased in front of the principal and instead the principal, later on we went to him, he doesn't want to listen to the PAC, instead he took the people of the ANC inside the school and took other teachers who were belonging to the PAC out of the yard of this school. And I talked to them, I said to them: "I have a solution about this".

And by the time Mr du Plessis - du Plessis was a Colonel at Fort Beaufort Police Station, he was aware of this and I also informed by the time he asked me about this and he told us that they will look after us and so on. I told him we don't want their defence, we are going to defend ourselves. That's where all things went worse.

ADV SANDI: Who is Mbulelo Dlamini, do you know?

MR DUMA: Yes, I know him. He was one of APLA cadres who was stationed in Transkei by the time.

ADV SANDI: Did he ever give any orders to the applicants?

MR DUMA: No, he just arrived to me and telling me about the request I made from the high command that he brought Mr Biko to me as the person who knows clearly the Fort Beaufort area.

ADV SANDI: Was that Bulelo Dlamini in a position to give orders to you?

MR DUMA: Yes, because he was in a higher rank than I.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[indistinct] stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, my last person to be called, last witness for the applicants is Sipho Bulelani Xyma, the former Deputy Director of Operations and Director of Special Operations in APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sipho Bulelani Xyma, the former Deputy Director of Operations in APLA and he was also a Director of Special Operations then in APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: For what purpose would he be called?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, firstly the other point would be the question of Dlamini, to tell the Committee who is Dlamini and also to tell the Committee about the structure in operational capacity of APLA, how they were operating.

CHAIRPERSON: How relevant is that here?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, it's relevant in the sense that to put the case of the applicants in its proper perspective as how they operated, as it was questioned here, the way they were operating and relation between task force and APLA, what were the duties of the task force and what in relation to APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but is it going to take the case any further?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, if - the Committee can rule if they see that there is no need for it.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to tell me how is the calling of that witness and the evidence he's likely to give going to enhance the application.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, as I already indicated that they have been questions, there has been questions about the way they operated and that we want to put that in its proper perspective, as to whether what they did was within the operational formwork of APLA. That's what we want to establish here, the Committee to have a clear picture of how APLA, whether what they did was outside the scope of APLA and the task forces which were formed by APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five minute break.

ADV DE JAGER: If that is so why isn't he here to give the evidence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: He's here Mr Chairman, that's why I'm calling him.

ADV DE JAGER: Oh, he's present here?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, he has been mentioned, in many applications he has been mentioned. In almost all the applications of APLA his name has come up.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five minute break.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What are his names?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sipho Bulelani Xyma.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Xyma, what language would you prefer to use?

MR XYMA: Come again.

CHAIRPERSON: Which language would you prefer to use?

MR XYMA: Okay, let's try English.

CHAIRPERSON: No, which would you be comfortable with?

MR XYMA: Ja, no, I'm saying let's try English. I will be comfortable.

SIPHO BULELANI XYMA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Xyma, can you tell the Committee just for the record purposes, what was your rank in APLA before there was an integration of APLA to the South African National Defence Force?

MR XYMA: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. I was the Deputy Director of Operations, second in command to Leklapa Mpashlele and also the Head of Special Operations, appointed by the late comrade Sabelo Pama.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now firstly before we come to this incident regarding this matter, can you just for the benefit of the Committee tell the Committee about the

structure of APLA, how it was composed and down to the foot soldiers?

MR XYMA: Thank you. In the first place it would be very difficult to, for other people but I'll try to explain. In APLA - APLA was established inside the country in the form of smaller units of Poko(?) task forces. There was no command structure as such by that time until we went outside where we formed APLA in 1967. We had the High Command. Behind the High Command we had regional commanders. The regional commanders consisted then of the four provinces, the Transvaal, the Free State and the Cape Province and below that we had area commanders.

When talking of area commanders I'm referring to the magisterial districts as the case with Fort Beaufort, and we've got the units on the ground. I don't know whether you are covered.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now if we can just be specific between the area period 1990 to 1994 up until the time of the suspension of the armed struggle, if you can just for the benefit of the Committee tell how the command, how was the command, how were the instructions given, the orders regarding operations.

MR XYMA: Ja. In answering that question I'll give an example. When I infiltrated the country through Swaziland I had no gun, no direct targets inside the country as to where you are going to attack. My brief was that I'm coming inside the country. When I arrived at home I was given contacts in many different areas. So as I've said, my brief was that I am trained politically, I'm trained militarily so I knew what to do on the ground when I entered the country.

So I was not given specific targets as to, as it is the case in conventional warfare where if I'm going to attack in Port Elizabeth I'll be given a target, I'll be given a map and so on. So whatever thing I'm going to do I'll depend on the map. In our case you'll simply go inside the country, you'll decide for yourself what target to attack, where and when to attack that target.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it your evidence in this court that the cadres were trained to take their initiative and to be able to seek and identify the targets on their own?

MR XYMA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: In what instances where the order will come from the top?

MR XYMA: As I've given the structure before, that we had unit commanders and we have got area commanders. At times - I mean let me put it this way, an area commander will give an order specifically to the unit commander and there were no - you know in the conventional arrangement before any attack there should be order group arrangement where the orders will be given to the entire unit, but in the case of a guerrilla unit there are not those order group arrangements. You simply deal with the commander and arrange, and give him orders. The other unit members will not know what is going to happen for just to secure and protect the information because it can leak and the entire unit get arrested before the operation could take place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me put it this way. There have been instances, and if I'm not mistaken in very APLA application with the exception of this one, your name has been mentioned. In all, St James, Golf Club, Eikenhof and all this. In what instances where an order comes from the top where it has been said that you have sanctioned those operations, where it comes from the top, an order comes from the top, from the Director of Operations or from yourself as a deputy.

MR XYMA: Can you repeat your question again?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me put it this way. There are instances, if I may quote it: (1) Eikenhof incident.

MR XYMA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where it has been alleged that - it has been confirmed that you ordered the Eikenhof incident and also you were involved in Heidelberg Tavern, you ordered it and also you supplied arms. Also at St James your name has been mentioned many, in almost in every application of APLA on all the major incidents. What happens in those incidents where an order comes from the top, from yourself where you've given approval that an operation should be carried out?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, how does it get down to the bottom, to the activist?

MR XYMA: Okay. Though it's very difficult to answer this question but I'll try to answer it to your satisfaction.

Let me take for instance the question of Eikenhof. In the Eikenhof I deployed Pila Dolo in the Vaal. Pila Dolo was a regional commander there and before he left for the Vaal I gave him orders to go to the Vaal to conduct the operations and there was no specific operation that was given to Dolo to execute in the Vaal. So he was there to look for targets and to make plans on his own without getting any further instructions from myself.

So the only thing I did there was to supply Dolo with weapons. It was to supply Dolo with weapons and everything he was going to be, anything that could be used for that operation was to be taken or to be taken from the masses on the ground. He was going to work with the masses on the ground. It don't know whether it is that clear.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, you would give a general instruction and the operation would be determined as those people on the ground deemed it able and fit?

MR XYMA: Come again?

CHAIRPERSON: You would give a general order and it will come down and they will execute the order as they think fit and as circumstances allow.

MR XYMA: Yes, that is correct. We were just giving broad guidelines as to: "No, you go to your certain place".

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just for the sake of ...[indistinct] let me come to almost home, to this incident. Let me first ask you, do you know Mbulelo Dlamini?

MR XYMA: Yes, I know Mbulelo Dlamini. Mbulelo Dlamini we used to call him Hlogoza or Madoda. He was the National Assistant Director in training department. He died in combat in Port Elizabeth, no, no, in Port St Johns in 1994 in a skirmish between APLA fighting the TT, ja it was a TTF/MK joint operation. There was a problem between TTF and APLA, so MK joined forces with TTF.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, when was that? When did he die?

MR XYMA: Pardon?

ADV DE JAGER: When did he die, 19?

MR XYMA: He died in 1994.

ADV DE JAGER: '84?

MR XYMA: 1994.

ADV DE JAGER: Oh, '94, okay.

MR XYMA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Xyma, you listened to the applicants and what happened at Fort Beaufort at Mr Franciscato's house and you heard what they did. Can you comment whether what happened on the day was in line with your guidelines from APLA and also tell the Committee what was the relation between APLA and the task forces.

MR XYMA: Ja, the Fort Beaufort attack, as far as I'm concerned, was in line with the APLA strategy. Fist of all let me give this task force thing.

Task force as it was, it was APLA auxiliary force. Its briefing mandate was to defend the party internally and at times it was given extra duties like defending the party and we also using it in intelligence gathering. Because as you are aware there is no organisation or any institution that can function and survive without intelligence and security.

So it was very difficult at the time to use externally trained cadres to come and protect the party. Then it developed to be APLA recruitment pool and later directly involved in combat.

Another thing that I want to stress here is that the strategy of APLA was basically a liberation war. What we referred to as the PAC and APLA as people's war. And that people's war was based on the premise that ours is the struggle of the people as a whole, of the oppressed.

I can say people's war is the involvement of the people in every front to wage the struggle, to destroy the settler regime. So I want to also answer that question of using the ...[indistinct]. I think when we deal with the question of crime, whether to take these comrades as criminals or whatever, you must first of all take into account the structural causes including the socio-economic causes that can force one to become involved in those acts before.

But when we recruit them we recruit them consciously because we were quite aware that they were used to, they were used in combat or let me put it, ja, in combat, whatever and they were brave and courageous. I firmly believe they were the part and parcel of the oppressed community of this country. So they had a right to fight for the liberation of the people of South Africa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

ADV DE JAGER: Did Mr Duma hand you any money received from these operations?

MR XYMA: Come again, Sir?

ADV DE JAGER: Did Mr Duma hand over any money to you received from these operations?

MR XYMA: Normally when a repossession operation is carried out the money was taken to our headquarters in Umtata and handed over directly to the front HQ administrator, the late comrade Mandla Djikilala(?). So I should think - I must put it on record that that money was handed over to comrade Mandla.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the applicants' case.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got anymore witnesses?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman, that's the applicants position.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got anything to add to what you've already said?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Not at this stage, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any further submissions to make?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I'm not sure about, unless Mr Chairperson can through some light as to what that entails. Maybe I'm a little bit out when it comes to that. What normally happens is that after we have closed the applicants' case if maybe the Leader of Evidence has anything.

CHAIRPERSON: You're for the applicants. We are not a court of law, we are a Commission. We are not married to certain rules and practices of court. You're not compelled to make any submissions if you don't want to, if you feel satisfied we've been given everything that you can possibly give. You can lay it rest there. If you want to make certain submissions we are prepared to listen to it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, that is why Mr Chairperson, it's not because I have quarrels with the procedure but I was taken aback. Normally what happens, if it's the view of the Committee that I have to make a closing argument in this matter ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Like I've said you're not compelled to. We're quite comfortable with either, whether you make one or not.

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairperson, if that's the case, the only thing left with me to make is closing argument.

Mr Chairperson, Section 20 (1) of the Act provides as follows:

"If the Committee after considering an application for amnesty is satisfied that the application complies with the requirement of this Act, the act, omission or offence with the application relates is an a act associated with political objective committed in the course of conflict in the past in accordance with provision Sub-section 2 and 3, that the applicant has made full disclosure of relevant facts, it shall grant amnesty".

Mr Chairperson, I submit that the applicants have complied with the Act, Section 20 (1) and (2). That they were quite clearly acting on behalf of APLA, a publicly known political organisation and liberation movement which was engaged in a political struggle against the State at the time.

Mr Chairperson, I won't like to waste the time of this Committee. You have heard the applicants. They have told the Committee that they were given instructions to go to Mr Franciscato's house and kill Mr Franciscato and repossess arms and this instruction came from Mr Duma. Mr Duma came and told the Committee that he indeed gave those instructions and that he got those instructions in his capacity as a commander then, of APLA.

Mr Chairperson, the applicants have told this Committee their roles, their respective roles in regard to this incident. It is my humble submission that with regard to their roles they have made full and proper disclosure before this Committee.

Mr Chairperson, there is no doubt that the first applicants, Mr Biko and Veveza have previous criminal records. There is no doubt about that. And that they were related to various incidents regarding dishonesty. Mr Chairperson, with regard, there is a difference with this one. If one looks at all the incidents that they were involved in, none of them involved the taking of human life. It was the first incident where a human life was taken. ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry. Are you asking for amnesty in connection with the murder? They've been found not guilty for murder.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, through Mr Chairperson, there is no way that - Mr Chairperson, I'm going to, I know that they were not found guilty of murder but there is no way that you can separate the two. Definitely if I'm arguing for the question of robbery of the arms, I cannot separate the question of the killing of Mr Franciscato from that robbery.

ADV DE JAGER: Alright. Now as far as the robbery is concerned, at Mr Franciscato's house, they've been found guilty of robber of a 410 shotgun. I've asked questions about the shotgun. This shotgun, if it's been robbed there, wasn't handed over to the, because they're speaking about one rifle and three pistols and the rifle was a .22. So did they rob a shotgun there or didn't they?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Through you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, as you have heard the evidence of the applicants, the weapons which they robbed from Mr Franciscato, they handed over to Mr Duma. Those were the weapons which they said was .22, which Mr Chairperson, is totally different to what they have been convicted of.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, then they're not guilty of, or they are not asking for a 410 shotgun.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, it may well be the case, Mr Chairperson, that they have mentioned weapons in this Committee which they believe that they took from Mr Franciscato. It cannot be wished away. It may happen that there was - that weapon is one of the weapons which got lost, but they are saying to the Committee that: "The weapons which we took from Mr Franciscato are these". It's as well as they have been - it's alleged that they took money.

ADV DE JAGER: The trouble is that shotgun was used that very evening ...[inaudible].

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: That shotgun was used that very evening in the other attack. So it wasn't handed over.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I've said to this Committee when this evidence was given here, it would

have been better if this case, if we were hearing it with the other case because that was not the subject of inquiry, that matter.

ADV DE JAGER: But the other case, they testified here was not on orders, they didn't relate to any political objective. That was the evidence before us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I wouldn't like to argue that because I have my own interpretation with regard to that.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, okay.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's why I've said to this Committee, I objected when this evidence relating to that, because we now we are using, because we have information before because this case was dealt simultaneously in the High Court and yet here the subject of inquiry is not related to that incident.

ADV DE JAGER: Right, but it's related to the weapons and according, they've been found guilty of robbing a 410 shotgun.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I want to say again that they have been found guilty of that weapon but Mr Chairperson, there is no evidence. That is why I'm saying to this Committee that incident is not related here. We don't know how it comes to their possession, that 4 whatever type of a gun.

ADV DE JAGER: That is why I ...[intervention]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Whether that gun was robbed on the same day or was taken from Mr Franciscato on the same day which was used there and we don't know who took it. That is why I've said to this Committee I have a problem when evidence is, when information is being tendered regarding the second incident because we are going to have a problem with this one. If they were being dealt simultaneously I wouldn't have problems because we would also ourselves have prepared for that matter. Because there are also other people who were involved in that who are not before this Committee.

ADV DE JAGER: You see my problem is this. Suppose we grant you amnesty for three hand guns and a .22 robbed at Mr Franciscato's place, you've been found guilty, maybe wrongly, of a 410 shotgun but we're not sitting as a court of appeal, we can't alter that. So we're granting you amnesty for the robbing of four weapons of which you've not been found guilty. So it wouldn't alter your sentence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: And that is why I'm putting this to you and that is what my problem was.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I fully agree with you, Mr Chairperson, but also we are here to disclose as to what happened on the day in question and tell the Committee the truth. Now I don't think it will be fair to come to the Committee just because people want to get out of jail and tell the Committee a lie.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask you this question? The evidence before us now is that it was a .22 rifle that was stolen. If we grant them amnesty on that, will you be satisfied?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, definitely Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] The question then directed at you is, how does that come to the assistance of the applicants?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I do get your point on this aspect. That is why I'm saying, Mr Chairperson, inasmuch as we are applying for amnesty with regard to this incident but also it goes to the credibility of the applicants. If for the sake of them wanting to be released by this Committee, they tell the Committee a lie because definitely if they say that when they have not - they have nothing to lose, they have been convicted, Mr Chairperson, why would they lie and say: "Look we didn't rob that firearm"? They have nothing to lose. Though they have been convicted but ...[intervention]

...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I finish? They have come to tell the Committee the truth as to what happened.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, unless they didn't hand over the 410 shotgun and that gun was later found in the possession after the second robbery, then they didn't disclose to us that they've handed in certain weapons but they kept one and committed a second robbery with that one.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. It may well be the case, Mr Chairperson, but my point is what were they going to lose by telling the Committee that: "We did rob also this firearm but we didn't hand it over"? If they wanted amnesty at all costs and to mislead the Committee, they have no reason not to say that: "We did also this one but we didn't hand it over"

CHAIRPERSON: What are you going to ask us to grant amnesty for, the theft of a .22 rifle, that's the evidence?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairperson, definitely Mr Chairperson. As we are not applying for R150,00 which they stole because they said they didn't take any money and there is no reason for them not say: "We took it", if they took it. But here if they say they took it when they didn't take it because they want amnesty, they will be misleading the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: You are aware of the problem that - it is not our problem but really the applicants' problem and your attention has been drawn to it and you are going to ask us to grant amnesty in respect of the .22, 2.2 or whatever it is, rifle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I want to emphasise I've said the Leader of Evidence will bear me, last week in Johannesburg we had a similar problem where the applicant did not want to do the same thing said: "I'm prepared to stay in jail if I'm not released if I'm going to say I did this when I did not do it". I was convicted of it. That is the same case, Mr Chairperson, because he told the Committee that: "I'll be misleading the Committee if I say I did it, inasmuch as I know if I say I did it, I was going to be granted amnesty as I did with the other ones but I'm not prepared to mislead the Committee because I'm here to tell the truth, I did not do this one".

ADV DE JAGER: You haven't perhaps got a copy of the judgment in this matter so that we could see on what exactly and what the evidence was that's been dealt with as far as the type of rifle that's been stolen. You see the trouble is, we're now granting you amnesty for stealing for instance, a Mercedes Benz motorcar but you've been convicted of a BMW and then you've got the problem, you've got amnesty here but you've not got amnesty for what you've been convicted for.

CHAIRPERSON: The other prospects is that both of us may be relying on the expert knowledge of people able to identify firearms when in fact they could easily be wrong. Both the people who identified it for the purpose of the criminal case and the people who identified it in this hearing. I don't know where the answer lies but it is definitely a problem.

ADV SANDI: It's a potential problem for the prison authorities as well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, as I indicated to this Committee, I don't have a problem with the Committee. The problem you have I also have it, Mr Chairperson, because definitely when I received this document on Monday and luckily I've consulted with them on the previous week on a Saturday, when I was given instructions on a Friday that they are going to appear, and I immediately saw that there's this difference. And they insisted that the firearms they robbed were these and that's what happened. And now it's ...[indistinct] in that problem.

Definitely Mr Chairperson, what I'm saying is that the Committee will have to do what it is enjoined by the law to do. It's not their fault, it's not also our fault but if the applicants are insisting, insist as they insisted to me, I even put to them and I told them that I have a similar problem but fortunately for the guy in Johannesburg he was released despite that he was not granted amnesty in a robbery.

But what I'm saying is that the applicants are saying: "What we did is this, if we say another thing to this Committee" - it may well have the problem, as Mr Chairperson says the problem of identifying the gun but what they are saying is this gun and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think you've made your point and we'll act accordingly if we grant amnesty.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Unless the Committee raises another point they want me address it on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to take a bit of time on this matter, consider it. As you may appreciate it's not the easiest of matters. We'll give a decision as soon as we can. We are aware that the applicants are in prison and whether we grant it or not, they have an interest in the decision and we will do our best to give it as soon as possible.

We'll adjourn until tomorrow 9 o'clock sharp.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS