TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARINGS

DATE: 13 AUGUST 1998

HELD AT: HAMMARSDALE

NAME: MR DLAMINI

DAY: 3

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CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. Mr Wills who is representing certain of the applicants has asked to be excused from portion of this morningís session, together with one of his clients, Mr Ndlovu. Yesterday we concluded the evidence of Mr Hlongwane, and this morning I believe weíll be commencing with the evidence of Mr Dlamini, is that not so Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: That is so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr Stewart you can ...

MR STEWART: I call Mr David Zwele Dlamini.

MR DLAMINI: (Duly sworn in, states)

EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Dlamini you gave evidence previously ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Dlamini, just for purposes of the record is your name David Zwele Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini you gave evidence at an earlier sitting of these hearings in Richards Bay, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: At that hearing you dealt with, amongst other things, your training in the Caprivi and the various incidents in which you were involved in the eSikhawini area, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: So Mr Dlamini in your evidence today we will focus on your involvement in this area where we sit today, in the Mpumalanga/Hammarsdale area. Is it right Mr Dlamini that you were born and lived for the first 12 years of your life in the Pietermaritzburg area, where after you moved to Mpumalanga with your family?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: And that during your period of schooling at Pezulu High School between 1981 and 1984 you joined and became a member of the Inkatha Youth League in this area, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: Now at that time did you know Mr Zakele Nkeshle?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I know him..

MR STEWART: How did you first come to know him?

MR DLAMINI: Mr Zakele Nkeshle was a prominent person in the Mpumalanga Township. He was a central committee member of the IFP. That is how I got to know him, and sometimes in schools in Kwa-Zulu Natal Inkatha was a school subject. Therefore he used to visit schools. That is how I got to know him.

MR STEWART: And did this Mr Nkeshle encourage you in your activities in the Inkatha Youth League?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, thatís correct.

MR STEWART: You mention in your application affidavit that a power struggle developed between the Youth Leagues aligned to the UDF and the Inkatha Youth League, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: What was the nature of this struggle?

MR DLAMINI: The struggle between the IFP and the UDF was brought about because of a certain person called Marshall, who used to remove children from school. This led to conflict and Mr Zakele Nkeshle used to try to get the children back to school. That is how the conflict began.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, what was the nature of the conflict, did it involve fighting, and if so, what kind of fighting?

MR DLAMINI: We used to stab each other using bush knives, but at that time we did not use guns.

MR STEWART: Did the local Inkatha leadership know that these were the activities that you and others were involved in?

MR DLAMINI: Yes they did know, for example Mr Nkeshle. They all knew.

MR STEWART: Youíve mentioned Mr Nkeshle, are there others who were in the leadership in this area at that time who knew?

MR DLAMINI: Even though there were, but Iíve forgotten their names.

MR STEWART: And what attitude did they take to youíre activities?

MR DLAMINI: They were pleased about this because at the time we were fighting against the UDF.

MR STEWART: Now there came a time, and youíve given evidence on this previously, that you became interested in joining the Kwa-Zulu Police Force and that you were taken to Ulundi ostensibly to undergo police training, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: But from there you were taken to what you subsequently learnt was the Caprivi, and you were trained there, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: Youíve heard the evidence of Mr Khumalo two days ago dealing with the nature of the training there, do you disagree in any way with the evidence that he gave?

MR DLAMINI: I do not disagree with anything that he said.

MR STEWART: Mr Khumalo told us about 4 groups that were formed in the advanced stage of the training, and he mentioned that he was in the offensive or counter-intelligence group. Which group were you in Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: I was put in the offensive group.

MR STEWART: And is it right that in that group you were trained in the use of various firearms, in various offensive tactics such as house-clearance and penetration and you were also trained in the use of explosives?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: By the time you finished your training in the Caprivi, what idea did you have as to what you must do with that training, what was the purpose of the training, and your understanding?

MR DLAMINI: As the time went on as we were in the Caprivi area, it became obvious that we were not being trained as policemen as we had been told when our homes. It was clear that we were becoming soldiers of the IFP; we will return to Kwa-Zulu to fight against the UDF. That is what I thought of at the time.

MR STEWART: After returning from the Caprivi, is it right that at some stage you were also sent for training in Venda?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: What were you trained to do in that training?

MR DLAMINI: I returned from Caprivi, spent some time at home and then I was sent to Venda where I received further training. The training that I received at Venda was about torturing; obtaining information from people; how to obtain such information; what methods you can use to obtain information from people, and also how to stab a person, where to stab him.

MR STEWART: Who was with you and also being trained at that time in Venda?

MR DLAMINI: There was a white person known as JP, who was an instructor.

MR STEWART: Let me clarify - Iíll come to who your instructor was in a minute. What Iím asking you is, who else was with you that was also being trained?

MR DLAMINI: There were others, I think we were about 50 to 100.

MR STEWART: Were they also people who had been trained in the Caprivi?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct. The entire offensive group was there.

MR STEWART: Now youíve mentioned that your instructor was a white man called JP. Is that JP Opperman?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: And are you aware if thatís the JP Opperman who was the officer of Military Intelligence who gave evidence in the trial of Peter and others?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: During your training in the Caprivi and in Venda, did you receive any political training or indoctrination?

MR DLAMINI: Yes there was, and that all that we were doing we were going to use to fight the ANC and the UDF. The training that we underwent was supposed to help us in fighting against the UDF and the ANC.

MR STEWART: Now for the assistance of the Committee, Iím now at paragraph 17 on page 382. Mr Dlamini you say in your application that you were informed by MZ Khumalo and Mudla Induna that you were to report to the Mpumalanga Police Station, this was obviously after your return from Venda. Is this correct? MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: Were you at that time proper members of the Kwa-Zulu Police Force?

MR DLAMINI: No, at that time we had just undergone training at Caprivi and Venda. When we arrived the police station had as yet not been built, and when we came here to the Mpumalanga area, we worked under ...(indistinct) Makateni. At that time the police used offices in the area .

CHAIRPERSON: What year was that you came to report here Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: 1987.

MR STEWART: Were you provided with appointment certificates of the Kwa-Zulu Police?

MR DLAMINI: We did not get them at the time, but when we returned here we took ID photos and this was sent to Ulundi. When they returned we had received our appointment certificates.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini what was the purpose of you being issued with a Kwa-Zulu Police appointment certificate?

MR DLAMINI: The purpose of this was that in all the areas that we went to in fighting the ANC, we would be able to carry guns so that we are not disturbed, and that the police should not harass or stop us on carrying out our activities of fighting against the ANC. That is how we operated.

MR STEWART: When you were sent to this area, were given instructions as to what you would be doing here?

MR DLAMINI: I received instructions from Mudla Induna at the time - there was a lot of fighting in Mpumalanga at the time. We were told that when we arrived here we would guide Indunas and Amakosi and counsellors in the township. That is what we were supposed to do here.

MR STEWART: Now you mention in your application whatís referred to as "Mpumalanga incident 1", and this is an attack after the death of Walter Mtelaniís sister. Do you remember that incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I remember it.

MR STEWART: Are you able to recall in what year this incident took place?

MR DLAMINI: Even though I do not remember correctly, but it did happen.

MR STEWART: Now you say in your affidavit that a result of this attack where Walter Mtelaniís sister was burned to death, Mudla Induna told us that you were going to conduct an operation to retaliate. Is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Now what was the plan, what was it that you were going to do in this attack?

MR DLAMINI: After the death of Walter Mtelaniís sister, being killed by the UDF, Walter Mtelani was a Caprivi an who resided in unit 2 in Mpumalanga. So Mudla Induna told us that if a Caprivi member has been hit or attacked, we shouldnít let things lie down, but we should do something, we should see what we should do.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, what Iím asking you, is what is it that you were then instructed to do, what was your plan in the attack?

MR DLAMINI: We planned a revenge attack because one of our members had been attacked.

MR STEWART: And who did you plan to attack?

MR DLAMINI: There was a Mpafana household opposite Walter Mtelaniís house. This Mpafana home normally had UDF members, they used to stay there. So when this incident took place Walter did mention who had attacked his sister. That is why we then attacked the Mpafana home where these UDF members stayed.

MR STEWART: Who did Walter say had attacked his sister?

MR DLAMINI: He did not say who specifically because, as Iíve mentioned, UDF members used to stay at that Mpafana house, so our attack was meant to be on UDF members who stayed there.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, tell us about the attack itself, what happened?

MR DLAMINI: Mtelani came to me to report that we should attack the house. He told the that Mudla Induna had spoken to him. As a policeman in the area I had a gun, a 7.65 mm which I kept with - I and Mtelani left as well as Ray Gadebe.

MR STEWART: Who else was with you Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: Just the three of us, myself, Mtelani and Ray Gadebe.

MR STEWART: Now before we carry on, letís just deal with this question of the gun. You will have heard two days ago that Mr Khumalo explained that when he was stationed in this area as a - also with an appointment certificate from the Kwa-Zulu Police, and that he was also under the command of Lieutenant Makateni, that at night when he left the police station, he had to leave his issued firearm at the police offices, and he couldnít take it with him. Now in this case youíve said that you had your police issued firearm with you. How did that come about?

MR DLAMINI: Iíll explain this, in most instances I did not work in this particular area, I would go outside the area and guide Amakosi in areas like Pietermaritzburg and well as Indunas there. Thereafter I would not take the gun back, but I will keep it with me. Therefore, that is how I had the gun in my possession.

MR STEWART: So are you saying that your duties and those of Mr Khumalo insofar as the police were concerned, were different?

MR DLAMINI: They were not different but we were posted at different areas.

MR STEWART: Okay, letís get back to the attack itself. You say there were three of you, yourself, Ray Gadebe and Walter Mtelani, and you approached this house. What then transpired?

MR DLAMINI: We remained at Mtelaniís home until it was dark in the night. We were waiting to attack the house. At about 2am we left Mtelaniís home and went directly to the Mpafana home. When we arrived there Ray Gadebe did not have a gun, but he had petrol bombs. We threw these into the house. After that I started firing. After we finished firing we ran away. We went to Mtelaniís house and then I went home.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, when you were firing, about how many shots did you fire do you think?

MR DLAMINI: As far as I can recall, maybe I fired 10 shots. I donít remember quite clearly, but I think it was about that.

MR STEWART: Did you fire those shots at any people particularly?

MR DLAMINI: It was at night, it was dark. There were people screaming inside the house. If one of them were injured or not, I do not have knowledge thereof. But because I was outside and I was shooting directly to the windows, when I heard a scream inside, or maybe I heard a voice inside the house, I would shoot in that direction. After that I ran away.

MR STEWART: You say you donít know whether anyone was injured or killed in that attack, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: Now that was the Mpafana home, did you not perhaps hear subsequently whether anyone was injured or killed?

MR DLAMINI: No I did not hear that.

MR STEWART: Now you say in your application that a few days later you informed that you had been identified at the scene, and that the police were looking for you. Is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct. It transpired that I had been identified, but I donít know how.

MR STEWART: And did that cause you to leave Mpumalanga?

MR DLAMINI: That cause my transfer to Pietermaritzburg from Mpumalanga.

MR STEWART: Now at some point you came to guard the Induna Ngcobo, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Whereabouts was that?

MR DLAMINI: The Induna stays in Pietermaritzburg in an area called Dindi.

MR STEWART: Is that in the Taylorís Halt area on the other side of Pietermaritzburg, the other side of Edendale?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: Were you issued with firearms at that time for the purpose of your duties?

MR DLAMINI: When I left here I had a HMC, a sub- machine gun.

MR STEWART: You say in your application that you were issued with a R1 rifle, and that you also had a 7.65 mm pistol. Is that what youíre referring to?

MR DLAMINI: Sorry, I made a mistake, I had a R1 rifle.

MR STEWART: Now if we come then to deal with whatís referred to as "incident 2", and this was repelling and attack with Zombi Tshabangu. Do you remember that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Where were you when you came under attack?

MR DLAMINI: We were guarding the Ngobe house - homestead at Pietermaritzburg, myself and Zombi Tshabangu. We were sitting around in the evening in a "rondawel". There was no electricity in the area. We just heard gunshots. We had a candle in the "rondawel". We lay flat on our stomachs, took our guns. All the time there was gunshots, we were hearing gunshots and some bullets were coming through the windows and the door, and some through the walls. We opened the door and started firing, flat on our stomachs. Because it was dark, if we saw a shadow passing by, we would fire, anything that would pass by.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, at that time, did you know who it was that was attacking your "rondawel"?

MR DLAMINI: At the time I did not know.

MR STEWART: Who did you think it might be?

MR DLAMINI: Because that was an IFP stronghold, I thought that the UDF must be attacking, that is what I thought.

MR STEWART: And did you subsequently learn who it was that was launching this attack?

MR DLAMINI: Yes ultimately we did realise that it was the policemen who were on our side.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini how did you learn that, and how did the attack end?

MR DLAMINI: I can just say that the Induna, after the firing of the gunshots, he went out and actually saw the police cars parked outside, and actually was trying to talk to them who were actually shooting us who were in the "rondawel". The police then tried to stop at that particular time, they stopped shooting, and that terminated. And then myself and Zombi went out, and the police then sat, and we asked from them, "why are we being shot", and then they said they got the information from the UDF that in this house there are people who have guns that not legal - illegal weapons. And then itís then that we produced our appointment cards, and then we said, "no, you canít, we are also on your side". These are the other police that were being shooting, we are also the police, we are actually watching or guarding this Induna, and thereafter they apologised. And that actually ended just like that, but during the fight there was a white one who actually got injured. And then everything that was passing by, we were just shooting and shooting, because they were also shooting.

MR STEWART: And as far as you are aware, it was just this one white policeman who was injured in that attack?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is how I know.

MR STEWART: And did the - was that then the end of the matter or did the police want to investigate it further?

MR DLAMINI: No, nothing has happened. We didnít even write the statement, and that was the end of it.

MR STEWART: Now you say that some time thereafter you were posted to the Sinatingi area of Pietermaritzburg to guard Mr Nwabe of the IFP who was Chairman of that area. Is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is so.

MR STEWART: And that you came to have to defend Nwabeís house?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: What was the situation in that area insofar as political conflict between the IFP and UDF was concerned?

MR DLAMINI: The situation was tense, it was bad. Such that when I arrived at the Nwabeís residence, it was bad, and we couldnít even go out. This Nwabe couldnít even go to town to buy something.

MR STEWART: Who were you with when you went to that area to assist Nwabe?

MR DLAMINI: Here at Nwabe I was with a boy called Trevor Nene.

MR STEWART: Now you mentioned in your application thereís a time that Mudla Induna came there with some others, you remember that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is like that.

MR STEWART: Do you remember who he came with?

MR DLAMINI: The people that I can recall well are Dan - Dan Leefe; Pumlane Mshengo; Sibo Bengo; Stlelo Ndlovu - I canít quite remember the others.

MR STEWART: Now you would have heard the evidence of Mr Khumalo two days ago when he mentioned the time when he came there to the Nwabe house. Was it the same time - do you remember if he came them with Mudla Induna and the others?

MR DLAMINI: Yes he was with Mudla Induna. Chair, when I arrived there the situation was so tense and bad, such that the war was just coming drastically. I just took the phone and then I phoned here in Hammarsdale, and then I indicated to them that this is beyond my powers. And I spoke to one Sergeant, and I canít recall the name, Iíve forgotten. He is the one who actually contacted Mudla Induna. Indeed Mudla Induna and them arrived with John Makateni, in a van - ...(indistinct) van, and they arrived there.

MR STEWART: What was your intention in calling them, what were you calling them to come and do in that area?

MR DLAMINI: Shlalo in that area. Chairperson, in that area the ANC is nearby the graveyard. Everybody who used to come there, a person coming there by ...(indistinct) would be buried there. The reason for calling these people, when people are coming to bury here, they would actually burn the houses because they knew that this was the IFP stronghold. When they arrive to bury people, theyíve already started burning the houses. Then I realised that this beyond my powers, they I phoned Mudla Induna. Indeed he came, thatís the reason why I called him.

MR STEWART: Now you became involved in an incident then at that time when those people came. Will you explain that.

MR DLAMINI: Mudla Induna, when they came, they houses were burning, and thereafter I pointed that these are the houses, you can see theyíre burning. And the realised that and people are running away, and people are actually now surrounding the area that I was guarding. Then I said to him, "you can see the situation". He just took the decision on his own, and he told the people that you can see the situation is tense, letís attack. And indeed Mudla Induna and them, instantly they arrived - after their arrival, thereís an area called Gigi, there is nothing. On their arrival I was actually showing them the area where the comrades are, and they actually saw then singing and dancing, and what so ever and Mudla Induna and them. And Jabulani Makateni was there. But when the van stopped, then they went up to that area called Gigi.

MR STEWART: Did you go with them?

MR DLAMINI: No I remained behind with those people that I was guarding, because it was too full, I had to stay with those people that I was guarding. They left, Mudla Induna and them..

MR STEWART: And what did they do, having left in that way?

MR DLAMINI: Oh, they actually met - fighting then, the situation was bad and the attack happened, and I donít know what happened thereafter, but I did hear the gunshots and the bullets. This is happening while Iím guarding this person, and the people actually ran away and they were seeking refuge here on me. What was done by Mudlam Induna there, although I heard the gunshots, although I did not know what was happening there. And thereafter Mudla Induna and them came back to where I was to this house.

MR STEWART: And in your guarding duties of that house, did you also have cause to shoot - to shoot at any people?

MR DLAMINI: No. As Iíve explained, that here I couldnít leave the place because there as a lot of people there, I had to guard these people here. Mudla Induna and them are they ones who able to go out and fight.

MR STEWART: You see Mr Dlamini, in your application you say "Mudla Induna and his group joined us" - have you got this on page 384? Itís page 10 of your affidavit, itís got a "10" at the bottom, do you have the page?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I can see.

MR STEWART: Can you see where it says "incident 3"?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I can see.

MR STEWART: And towards the bottom of that paragraph, 4 lines from the bottom, it says:

"Mudla Induna and his group joined us, and together we shot back at the

attackers."

Are you referring there to yourself as well, or to the other people?

MR DLAMINI: Iím referring to those people who were with Mudla Induna. Those are the people who arrived and went up there at Gigi and shot. This was happening while I was here at Nwabeís residence.

MR STEWART: And in the last sentence there in that paragraph you say:

"We shot about 10 people dead, and many others were injured."

Did you have knowledge of that?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, here people were actually narrating that this is what happened, these are the people who were shot. Thatís where I got this information, that ...(indistinct) job that I did. But physically I wasnít there, I was in this house that I was guarding.

MS KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Stewart. You have referred us to page 10 which is incident 3. I note that Mr Dlamini has referred to the time when Mr Betuli came to join them, and he said that at that time Mr Nwabeís house was under attack, and it appears from his viva voce evidence that it may not necessarily have been the right situation. I just wanted that to be clarified.

MR STEWART: Thank you Ms Committee Member, Iíll see to clarify that.

Mr Dlamini, when you speak of the bad situation in that area, and you see it was beyond your powers, are you referring to the same incident where Mr Nwabeís house had been under attack?

MR DLAMINI: Will you please repeat your question?

MR STEWART: In the incident that youíre referring to in your evidence, that youíre recalling about the time that Mudla Induna and the others came there, had it been the case that Nwabeís house was under attack?

MR DLAMINI: As I am saying Sir, that I myself was also attacked at the Nwabeís place. ANC came and shot and then ran away. They shot and they ran away. Thatís then when I realised that thereís a lot of people here, and thereafter, thatís when I phoned Mudla Induna, who thereafter came.

MR STEWART: In the attack as youíve described it, that Mudla Induna and the others launched in that area, was that part of repelling the attack against Nwabeís house, or was it a separate attack? In other words, was it part of defending that Nwabe home?

MR DLAMINI: As Iíve indicated, IFP - if Iím not mistaken, a lot of people had run away. It was about few houses, very few. Then ANC was in large numbers in that area. All of them used to pass by there on their way to bury, the graveyards were nearby- the cemetery was nearby. On their way they were firing gunshots, and as they were firing or as they passed by to the cemetery, they fired their guns. And thereafter, and then I phoned Mudla Induna and said these people are in large numbers and itís beyond my powers.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Stewart Iím sorry be interfering with Mr Dlamini, I really just wanted him to confine his explanation to whether at the time when Mudla Induna arrived, was Mr Nwabeís house being attacked, because thatís how it has been phrased in his application. If you check, I think itís the first paragraph, right in the middle, Mr Dlamini says:

"At the time of their arrival ...", and thatís Mr Betuliís arrival, "... Nwabeís house was being attacked by the ANC. They joined the attack, and together we shot back at the attackers."

I just wanted clarification only in respect of that small issue.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini youíve heard the question. Perhaps you can try and answer it.

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed. The Nwabeís area was being attacked where I was.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Stewart you may proceed.

MR STEWART: I thank you. If the Committee can bear with me for one minute. The Committee will find it instructive that this dealt with also by Mr Lethal at page 251, paragraph 15.26, and thereafter, where he explains that on arriving at this home, Trevor Nene and Zwele Dlamini were there and they had found that the UDF had already launched an attack and there were houses burning in the area, and then there was - from there various operations were launched, much along the lines of the viva voce evidence given by Mr Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Dlamini you say at the top of page 385 that this incident took place between October or November 1987. Do you remember if thatís correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it was 1987, but I canít quite remember the month.

MR STEWART: Now after this, is it right, that you remained at the house of Nwabe?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I was there.

MR STEWART: Now in your incident 4 you mention another attack. Are you familiar with the one that Iím referring to?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I do remember.

MR STEWART: Explain to the Committee what happened in that incident.

MR DLAMINI: In this incident Chair, as Iíve indicated when I was writing the statement, there are some mistakes that I did, but I will try to explain how this incident occurred. In this incident IFP youth was also there. I made a mistake and then I actually mixed up things, I actually included the group that I was with, Mudla Induna and them. In actual fact this incident was done - let me explain, may I please explain the situation.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini let me assist you to clarify that first. Are you saying that although it appears here in your affidavit that Mudla Induna and others were involved, youíre saying that at that time you were mixing it up and in fact it was IFP youth who were involved, is that what youíre explaining to the Committee?

MR DLAMINI: That is what Iím saying.

MR STEWART: It is your duty to explain to the Committee, you donít need to ask permission to do so, so please continue and explain.

MR DLAMINI: There this youth met on its own and attacked this area at Gigi ...(indistinct). It is the one who was actually throwing petrol bombs in the houses; shooting, because it also had guns. As Iíve written, mixing up, Mudla Induna indeed was not there. I wish to explain that, it is the youth there that did this incident.

MR STEWART: That incident were you still - at that time your responsibility as to be assisting Nwabe, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is.

MR STEWART: And did Nwabe know about this incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes he did.

MR STEWART: Did he know about it at the time or only afterwards?

MR DLAMINI: He knew very well.

MR STEWART: And what was his attitude?

MR DLAMINI: As a person who couldnít even go, he was happy if the boys are paving way for him to actually go onto the road.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you - sorry Mr Stewart, did you play any role in the incident, in the petrol bombing and the shooting in the Gigi area?

MR DLAMINI: No I did not go there. I was staying in the house at the Nwabe residence.

CHAIRPERSON: And how far away from you was this attack, you know, with the petrol bombs and the shooting by the youths?

MR DLAMINI: I would just estimate and say, if the house could be here where I am and they are attacking, to the Training College. A distance from where Iím sitting to the Training College.

CHAIRPERSON: Thatís what, about 2 kilometres. Is that that big building on the other hill?

MR DLAMINI: Yes thatís that Training College, teacherís training college. I think itís the distance from here to the Training College.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you play any part in the planning of the attack, or did you have anything to do with the attack at all?

MR DLAMINI: No I did not plan anything, they were doing this on their own. I was there when they were doing it, but I did not contribute. The petrol bombs that they were preparing, I was there, I did not - thereís nothing that I couldnít see while they were planning it, but I did not partake in it, and I did not attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini in the work that you were doing in different areas, were there many attacks of this nature that happened close by to where you were, or that you were part of?

MR DLAMINI: I canít quite get your question.

MR STEWART: In the time that you were doing this kind of work, were there many attacks of this nature, of this kind of conflict in the semi-urban or semi-rural areas? Many of these attacks near to where you were, or that you were involved in.

MR DLAMINI: Yes there was a lot of fighting there.

MR STEWART: Are you able to estimate at all about how many such attacks you knew about or you witnessed?

MR DLAMINI: Although I cannot be accurate, but thereís quite a lot of them who by the youth as they were involved.

MR STEWART: And this was 10 years ago or so, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: And is it possible that youíre mixing up by mistake some of these different incidents and attacks?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: Because youíll see the members of the Committee and indeed myself, are struggling to follow sometimes which incident youíre speaking of. So my intention is to come back to those, so you can have an opportunity to think about them.

MS KHAMPEPE: Before Mr Stewart, you do that, Iím sure we would like to get clarity from you as Mr Dlaminiís legal representative, that after Mr Dlamini has acknowledged that the incident in question was in fact made a result of mistakes, you know, is he still persisting with his application for amnesty in respect of this incident, in view of the fact that he did not play any role at all in the incident concerned, because he says that this is an incident wherein IFP youths participated, and neither did he direct nor plan the said incident.

MR STEWART: Well Ms Committee Member, thatís exactly my problem, Iím not sure which incident weíre dealing with. The one that heís explained, certainly - apparently he didnít have a role in, so Iíll have to take instructions on that. There would be no need - it would be pointless to apply for amnesty for something he wasnít involved in. But the one that appears in the application which Iím referring to, he did have an involvement in. So I will need to take instructions on that.

My intention is to deal with a very separate incident, being the Woody Glen and Injubakazi incident which appears at page 388. During the short adjournment I will be in a position to take instructions on that. We should be able to clear it up and have it finished shortly there afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thanks, and perhaps Mr Dlamini, we only need to hear about incidents in which you were personally involved in any way with.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you.

MR STEWART: So Mr Dlamini, Iím going to come back just now to the incidents which happened at or near Nwabeís house and in that Sinatingi area.

MR DLAMINI: Just go back to that.

MR STEWART: Okay but now - alright so if you put that aside in your head, now what weíre going to deal with is the Woody Glen and Injubakazi incident. Are you familiar with that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I do remember this.

MR STEWART: Now this is - Woody Glen is not far from here, Mpumalanga, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: And you mentioned in your application that there were fights - you described them as faction fights between the residents of Woody Glen Mpumalanga and residents of the Injubakazi area. Can you explain what were those fights about, what were the differences?

MR DLAMINI: What I can explain is that there was a lot of fighting in the Injubakazi area, fighting between the ANC and the IFP. As this fight went on, a lot of people were attacked by the ANC and they fled the area and came to Woody Glen. When these fights happened I was by that time working at the police station here.

MR STEWART: Now you mention a person called Kay, do you know who that person is?

MR DLAMINI: Although I cannot remember his surname I knew him as Kay, a member of the IFP who was well-known in unit 4. There were two persons by the name of Kay, there was a tall one and a shorter one. His nickname was Mtui. This is the Kay who came to me, being sent by Mudla Induna.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the Kay that came to you the tall one or the short one?

MR DLAMINI: The short one.

MR STEWART: This Kay, was he involved in any way with taxiís?

MR DLAMINI: Kay was a taxi owner and his taxiís operated in the Weber area, that is what I know.

MR STEWART: Now you explain that this happened in about the middle of 1991, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct, if my memory serves me well.

MR STEWART: At that time had there been taxi violence in this area?

MR DLAMINI: No at the time it had not as yet started.

MR STEWART: When was there taxi violence here, do you know?

MR DLAMINI: I cannot remember quite clearly.

MR STEWART: But it was sometime after this incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, after this incident if Iím not mistaken.

MR STEWART: And did this incident have anything to do with taxi violence?

MR DLAMINI: No, not at all.

MR STEWART: What did Kay ask you to do?

MR DLAMINI: I was working in the police station and Kay came to me and told me that he had been sent by Mudla Induna. When Kay arrived there was fighting at Injubakazi and people fled to their shacks at Unit 4. Kay told me that Mudla Induna had asked me to assist him because there was this fighting at Injubakazi. He insisted that Mudla Induna had sent him to me. I told him that weíll discuss it after I came off work. After leaving work at 2, I went to Unit 4 and talked to Kay. I questioned him about the incident and he repeated that Mudla Induna had sent him to me, that people were being killed at Injubakazi, and I should assist them. Mudla Induna had told him this. I told him that I was going to speak to Mudla Induna.

I made a telephone call to Ulundi where Mudla Induna was, and asked him about this matter because I was working as a policeman. Mudla Induna asked me if I was not longer a member of the IFP. He told me that he indeed had sent Kay, and what Kay had told me I should do. I then agreed; told Kay that I would do it, and I asked him "where are the weapons" ...(intervention)

MR STEWART: Yes Mr Dlamini, just before you go on, you say you agreed you would do it, but you havenít explained to us what is it that you were asked to do.

MR DLAMINI: As Iíve mentioned before, there was fighting at Injubakazi, IFP members were being attacked and they were fleeing to Unit 4. Therefore my agreement with Kay was that I was going to go attack the ANC people, as in Jabulani, who were in fact attacking IFP members there.

MR STEWART: Now was this agreement as youíve referred to it, with Kay, was that you would do this on your own, or that you would have others with you?

MR DLAMINI: Kay told me that there were other people who were going to assist us. We did not call guns by their names, we used to call them "sticks", and he told me that we were going to get these sticks somewhere, and I agreed with him. He took me to Sakonja and when we arrived there at a certain house, I cannot exactly remember where it is, he showed me the guns, they were AK47's, quite a lot of them. And there was ammunition as well. We left and returned to Unit 4. I went back to work. When I left work later on I told Kay that I was now ready to go with him.

INTERPRETER: I think Iíve missed something.

MR DLAMINI: Before we went to Injubakazi there was a boy by the name of Mkupuleni who worked at CR Swart in Durban, at the Murder and Robbery Unit. The SAP used to go the Injubakazi area, and this Mkupuleni used to work in that unit. He is an IFP member because he was once attacked at Injubakazi and came to stay at Woody Glen. Kay then connected me to this Mkupuleni before we went to attack the Injubakazi area. At one occasion Mkupuleni took his men and they went to check what the situation was like at Injubakazi, and he came back and reported to me that there was a large presence of the police in the area - we should not go there.

After a few days I told him that he should make means that I should be able to go there because Mudla Induna had instructed me to go there. Thereafter myself and Kay, in his red Corolla, went to Sakonja. When we arrived there we found other people waiting for us, and their weapons were also there. I took AK47's, R4's, R1's and these men looked trustworthy, and they wanted - they were rearing to go to Injubakazi. They were afraid of me, I told them to take the guns. I gave them the guns in fact.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini do you remember who these people were, the ones that went with you?

MR DLAMINI: I do not remember them clearly. I did not know their names, but if I could see them, I could identify them because I did not know their names, there was no need for me to know their names, because if they were friends of Kay they would not be dangerous to me. Therefore I did not see a need to ask who they were.

MR STEWART: And I take it from that that they were not Caprivian?

MR DLAMINI: No they were not. They were people that I found at this house in Sakonja.

MR STEWART: Okay, now you told us that they were rearing to go. How did you then proceed to get to the Injubakazi area?

MR DLAMINI: We walked on foot from Sakonja, we went through Mopela. It was during the day. We proceeded towards Nkosi Mkeseís home in Injubakazi. When we arrived there we saw a large number of people across, from Nkosi Mkeseís home you can see their houses across. There were bushes and forests in the area.

I told the people that "now that you are at Injubakazi, you should start shooting". I told them that there was no policemen and there was no-one. If you see somebody you should take careful aim, shoot them. Indeed they did this. I lined them up and they started firing. As they were firing we discovered that some were hiding in the bushes and the started returning fire. I said to the person who was next to me, I said "give me that R1", I took it and I sat down and I hit a few. Some fell down, and at the same time they were returning fire. I fired.

We decided to stop, I told them to stop. And then we returned on foot using the same route that we had taken before, but because of gunshots that were being fired, I think we used a route going through Unit 1, not ...(indistinct). We had sent a boy to go fetch a car that will pick us up. Indeed the car came and it picked us up. I went to Unit 4. Kay took all the guns and put them in his car. I then went back to my home.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini are you aware how many people were injured or killed in this attack?

MR DLAMINI: I do not know.

MR STEWART: And do you know how many people you personally shot in this attack?

MR DLAMINI: Although I do not know how many there were, but when I fired, there were some people who got injured, but I do not know whether they died or not.

MR STEWART: And did you ever hear thereafter what happened?

MR DLAMINI: As a person who worked in the police station I subsequently heard that the detectives in the Mpumalanga Police Station had heard that I had been involved in the incident. After hearing this I woke up the following morning, collected my belongings and went to Ulundi and reported to Mudla Induna.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Dlamini you touched on this on the introduction to the attack, but this is an important point, so I want you to cover it again. This attack, you were effectively commanding this attack, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, I was the only Caprivi an amongst the people I was with and Iím the one who issued them with guns.

MR STEWART: So can you explain to the Committee then what was the objective of this attack? What did you seek to achieve by attacking this area in that fashion when you were unable to identify individual people?

MR DLAMINI: Where we were was an ANC stronghold, the same ANC who had attacked our people and made them flee the area. Therefore our going to that area meant to attack the ANC. We did not discriminate because every person that we saw coming out of the houses, fleeing, we attacked.

MR STEWART: How did you know that it was a so-called ANC area?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, the Kay that I was with is the person who knew that that was an ANC area.

MR STEWART: How did he know that it was a ANC area, was this something that was commonly known or did he investigate, or did you verify this investigation? How could you be sure what area you were attacking?

MR DLAMINI: I was sure because even Mkupuleni who worked in ...(indistinct) would tell Kay where the ANC people are.

MR STEWART: Did you meet this Mkupuleni?

MR DLAMINI: I mentioned before that before the incident occurred, we met Mkupuleni.

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, would this be a convenient time?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Stewart, I see itís just past 11. We will now take the tea adjournment and will resume at 11h30.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: May I remind you that youíre under your former oath.

MR DLAMINI: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Dlamini, this Sinatingi area, is it a big area?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is a big area.

MR STEWART: And at that time that you were there, did - was it associated with one or other of the political groupings that had been fighting one another?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, itís like that.

MR STEWART: And was there a cemetery in that area?

MR DLAMINI: Yes there was.

MR STEWART: Now did anything used to happen often when there were funeral processions to the cemetery?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, itís like that.

MR STEWART: What used to happen with those funeral processions?

MR DLAMINI: This Nwabe house is nearby the cemetery, the people from Oushtown, Ganeza and ...(indistinct) and Edendale ...(indistinct), when these people go for their burial they used to pass that house that I was guarding.

MR STEWART: Now this particular incident no 3, which is on page 384, now this particular incident, was there a funeral procession which started this incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is like that.

MR STEWART: So what happened from this funeral procession?

MR DLAMINI: What happened there, as Iíve indicated, in all these areas these people who used to go to bury in this cemetery, when they on their arrival for the procession, they used to throw stones on this house, gunshots and everything that they had while I was inside whilst guarding the house. Myself with the other brother there Munene Person, in this incident, when these people arrived on busses, a lot of busses. They fired on this house whilst they were passing on their to the cemetery. We also returned fire with the guns that we had.

MR STEWART: Are you saying Mr Dlamini, that you used the guns that you had to repel that attack?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: And did you personally fire your firearm?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I did shoot.

MR STEWART: And are you aware whether there were people who were injured or killed in that shooting?

MR DLAMINI: No I donít have any knowledge, but I know that I did shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you shoot - did you aim when you shot, did you shoot with the intention of perhaps hitting a person, or did you just shoot in the air?

MR STEWART: I was directing my shot at the people, a lot of people. Just how many people got injured, I donít have any idea, but what I know is that I did shoot towards the direction of the people there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, were these people in the busses, or had they got out of the bus at the time of the shooting?

MR DLAMINI: They were on foot, and they were actually shooting the house where I was in.

MR STEWART: Now this procession then went past the house if I understand you, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, they passed and they went to the cemetery. That is when I phoned Mudla Induna to come instantly because things are heavy here.

MR STEWART: Were you - did you expect that that funeral procession would have to come back past the house again?

MR DLAMINI: Yes itís like that.

MR STEWART: And did you expect that there might be another attack?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: Now youíve explained that when Mudla Induna and the others arrived, they were then involved in a, if you like, a counter-attack to the Gigi area, and you said that you were not involved in that counter-attack because you had to stay and guard Nwabeís house. Do you stand by that evidence?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: But you were involved in shooting to repel the initial attack when the funeral procession first came past the house?

MR DLAMINI: Yes itís like that.

MR STEWART: Now in so far as incident 4 is concerned, is it right that you and I have been through together what is written in this paragraph, the first paragraph under incident 4, and that you canít recall what this was about, you canít sort out the details in your head, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes Chair, I canít quite remember clearly about this.

MR STEWART: And as a consequence of that you withdraw any application in respect of that incident there which is reflected immediately the heading "Incident 4", that one paragraph, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes itís like that.

MR STEWART: Now in the following paragraph you mentioned an incident where you became injured. Will you explain what happened there, how it was that you became to be injured.

MR DLAMINI: After this incident I remained there at the Nwabeís residence. It was myself and Munene person. We couldnít even go to the shop, and it was difficult for people to even go buy bread from the shop. Myself and this Trevor Nene, we took money from these people and some few children who assisted us. There was a tuck-shop nearby, and then we went on foot with the money and the guns that we had ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry, just before you proceed Mr Dlamini, when you say you took money from people, what do you mean, did you rob people of money, or did you get money from them?

MR DLAMINI: No Chair, what Iím saying is that people couldnít walk, go there, so we were actually taking money from the people so that we can buy food for them at the nearby tuck-shop. We were hit then, with Trevor, the late Trevor, just before we reached that place on our way, we were just hit by the bullet and the people that we were going with just ran away, and no-one asked anyone what is happening now. I also knelt on my knee and I actually knelt next to those people. It was a bit dark by then.

I sat down and then I started shooting towards the people who were shooting us. Because it was dark and I couldnít even see who was shooting, I also fired. However it then became apparent it was the ANC people. I was actually now shooting the soldiers themselves because it was dark, I couldnít see. And we were actually shooting, exchanging the gunshots there for a long time, and my bullets actually got finished.

When I was trying to stand up where I was, trying to go back to look for the bullets, they then shot me and then I was lying down. Thatís how I got injured in that place.

MR STEWART: Whereabouts on your body were you injured?

MR DLAMINI: The right foot and the right hand, because it was the trained people. I also realised that you hold the gun like this, and they actually shot where I was holding the gun. The were fighting for it so that I can fall down, because I also did not let myself down. I was shooting, they were actually to shoot the gun and I was wounded - the right foot and the right hand..

MR STEWART: And this injury to your foot or your leg, did that take a long time to heal?

MR DLAMINI: In that year, that was Ď87, December approximately, thatís when I got injured, and then I was hospitalised. I was released in 1988. When I left the hospital, when I discharged, it wasnít good at all. When I was injured I went to this Edendale Hospital. The leaders came, like Brigadier Sipho Mate, who was the Commissioner of the Kwa-Zulu Police by then and Captain Langene who was working at Ulundi.

They came to visit me - and MZ Khumalo came to see me. I couldnít talk by then, I used to be quiet. Some few days passed by while I was still in hospital, and then I was better, I could then see and talk. I was in hospital and the police were actually guarding me, two policemen were actually guarding me. It was after about three months or four months, I canít quite remember, Mudla Induna came with Jabulani Makateni, then they said "we came to fetch you, be ready, we came to fetch you", and I asked them "what do you mean", and they said "no be ready, we came to fetch you". I couldnít even walk by then. My leg was hung there up, and my hand was actually hung up.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, so did they take you from there?

MR DLAMINI: Yes they took me, Mudla Induna and Jabulani Makateni said: "we came to fetch you". Two police asked if the two people, and then they said "this should go and buy cold drink, and when these two police went to buy drink, they just took me, dragged me, dragged me into the car. And they dragged me painfully, I couldnít even cry, onto the car, and then they went to Hammarsdale here at home. I stayed a few days here at home. "You should remain here, somebody will come and pick you up".

MR STEWART: Is it right that you wanted to get away, this was an escape from the police to get away, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, as Iím saying, at that particular time I couldnít talk. This was - everything was happening ...

CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN AND TO REFRAIN FROM INTERRUPTING THE WITNESS IN HIS EVIDENCE

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, do you still bear the scars of that injury to your leg?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed, I still have that.

MR STEWART: Are you prepared to show that to the Committee to show that you were injured in that way?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I can show them.

MR STEWART: Will you show us now?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, please calm down. The witness shows a large scar on his - the witness shows a large scar in the right leg shin. Please calm down.

Mr Dlamini when you said you were shot in the foot, you mean you were shot - were you shot where you show the scar on the shin, rather than the foot?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, yes. Itís because I canít even take off the clothes now. Even here on my thigh bullets did penetrate. Itís the foot, the thigh, the arm, all up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Now Mr Dlamini we donít need to deal with this in detail because itís not that significant to your application, is it right that after having been taken from the hospital you recuperated here in Mpumalanga for a short period and then in Ulundi. You were then flown to Venda where you spent some recuperating, and subsequently at the Mkuzi camp, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is like that.

MR STEWART: And that in all this time you were being hidden from the police?

MR DLAMINI: Yes itís like that.

MR STEWART: And were there any people in leadership or in command of you who were assisting in hiding you in this fashion?

MR DLAMINI: MZ Khumalo.

MR STEWART: And anyone else?

MR DLAMINI: Captain Langene.

MR STEWART: And anyone else?

MR DLAMINI: Those are the two that I still remember.

MR STEWART: Now is it right Mr Dlamini, that in accordance with your previous evidence in Richards Bay, that once you had recovered and you became active again, you were then stationed in eSikhawini with Mrs Mboyazi, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is.

MR STEWART: Were you involved in any other incidents which you are able to remember, specifically in the Mpumalanga and Pietermaritzburg areas?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

INTERPRETER: I donít think he did get that question.

MR STEWART: The question Mr Dlamini is, other than the incidents youíve already told us about, are there any others that you can remember the actual incidents in which you were involved in the Mpumalanga or Pietermaritzburg area?

MR DLAMINI: No thereís nothing besides what Iíve written here.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, at one point you say that you returned briefly to the area in order to speak with your mother, and you established that your father had died. Is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is the truth.

MR STEWART: What were the circumstances of your fatherís death?

MR DLAMINI: When I heard when I arrived home, he was working at Rainbow, driving the busses Rainbow that actually commute people to and from work. He was taken out at Unit 4 in a bus on his way to work They took him out there, they stabbed him and shot him. They stabbed him and they burned him. I heard that when I arrived at home.

MR STEWART: Where is your home now Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: Do you mean right now? Right now I stay at Maintain, but home, real home, is here in Hammarsdale in Unit 2.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Dlamini youíve been involved in many incidents in this area as youíve explained. Do you wish to return to this area?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is my wish. Yes, indeed.

MR STEWART: When you look now, when you look back on those activities and incidents that you were involved in, what do you think about them?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, what I can say, when I look back in all what was happening until I got injured, political leaders knew how to instil this political indoctrination if I may say. That is how I found myself involved in this politics. These political leaders knew to make us do all these things.

I didnít actually just came about think of doing this by myself, there were people who was actually - who were instructing me to do this, go there and do this. And when I refer back and look now, there was not even a little need that I should have done all what I have done because a lot of people died and got injured because of what we did here. Why? Because of the politicians, because if I did not allow them in that, I wouldnít be like this.

Even the community here at Mpumalanga know that, that a lot of their children died because of political reasons, and all those who survived because of politics. Therefore I say to the Mpumalanga community, in what they are in this unity that is here at Mpumalanga, I wish that you can be forever as it is. And all those people, especially who are still young, because I started when I was very young in this politics business.

They shouldnít dare actually partake in political reasons because that will go back in the situation that we find yourself in. Why? Because of political leaders, you do something and the person will actually leave you as you are, and actually deny you and say "I donít know you anymore". Thatís why I say to the Mpumalanga community they should be united in what they are. This unity - or this political thing, they must just do away with it, they must continue in unity and education must continue as it is right now. That is what I can say to the community, and that they should accept me if I do come back as a person who was born here. I thank you Chairperson.

MR STEWART: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart.

Mr Wills do have any questions to the witness?

MR WILLS: No questions Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, do you have questions to put to the witness.

EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes I have questions. Mr Dlamini in your group that operated in Mpumalanga, was there another Caprivi an known as Zwele Dlamini, other that yourself?

MR DLAMINI: Can I just explain about this Zwele Dlamini. There is somebody else called Zwele Dlamini, heís from Johannesburg. This Zwele Dlamini used to work at the Kwamashu BSI, headed by Katie Nshlengo.

MR NGUBANE: Is the man whose other name is Godfrey Dlamini - Zwele Godfrey Dlamini, do you know that name?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now you and Nyoni Hlongwane have mentioned the name of Nkeshle - Zakele Nkeshle extensively. Just tell us a little bit about the Inkatha leadership, was Nkeshle the only Inkatha who worked with you, or what was the position?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, at my section in Unit 2 there was a councillor, Mr Bengo who worked closely with Zakele Nkeshle. He himself was also a member of the IFP at the time. I mentioned the person that I knew, and from my section.

MR NGUBANE: Well my question is directed to the Inkatha people who were directing you to commit certain acts linked with what you call political activities, acts of destroying houses and killing people. Are you saying that Nkeshle and Bengo are the only ones, or it was a more extensive Inkatha leadership?

MR DLAMINI: Iíll say Zakele Nkeshle is the one person who concentrated mainly on the youth and he used to move around the entire township, and therefore he is the one person who used to tell us that UDF was our enemy.

MR NGUBANE: Now Mr Dlamini, let me put the questions directly to you, did you at any stage receive any instructions from an Inkatha person other than Nkeshle and Bengo to do acts of violence in Mpumalanga?

MR DLAMINI: No, there was no other person except for Zakele.

MR NGUBANE: Okay. Did you receive any sanctuary from any other Inkatha high-ranking officer in Mpumalanga, other than Nkeshle and Bengo after you had committed any act of violence?

MR DLAMINI: I mentioned Zakele Nkeshleís name before I went to Caprivi. After I returned from Caprivi the person who gave me instruction was Mudla Induna and MZ Khumalo.

MR NGUBANE: I see. No local leader in Mpumalanga ever, other than Nkeshle and Bengo, every gave you instructions to commit acts of violence, is that what youíre saying?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know there was reference to an Inkatha leader known as Mercy Sithulu. Was he in fact the leader of the IFP - local IFP in Mpumalanga?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, she was the leader of the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Did she have anything with your instructions to commit any violence, or with providing you sanctuary after you had committed acts of violence - at any stage?

MR DLAMINI: No, not at all.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know a red motor vehicle that used to operate in Mpumalanga which was known as "Tomato"?

MR DLAMINI: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, Mr Dlamini, the question was, do you know a red motor vehicle that used to operate in Mpumalanga which was known as "Tomato".

MR NGUBANE: Yes I know it.

MR DLAMINI: Did you at any stage participate or travel in that motor vehicle, in executing certain acts of violence against the UDF members or families?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Just tell us more about that motor vehicle, where it originated, how it operated, if you know.

MR DLAMINI: What I know is that that car belongs Sipho Mlaba. I am not aware of its activities ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN

MR DLAMINI: I would like to explain, there was a group of Telewenies in Mpumalanga. I have never operated with these people. This car was normally driven by a person called Mpashaza. I know this person, but I have never worked with him, but I knew him to be Mr Sipho Mlabaís driver. I have not on one occasion used this car on attacks, but I knew that it belonged to Sipho Mlaba.

MR MOTATA: In that respect Mr Ngubane, he has just told us that he operated twice - before he was trained as a Caprivi an, and subsequently as a Caprivi an. So we would want to know in which period was this vehicle used.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Dlamini you say you know this motor vehicle. At what period do you know it?

MR DLAMINI: I think it was roundabout 1987.

MR NGUBANE: That is after you had come back from Caprivi, or was it before?

MR DLAMINI: After I came back from Caprivi.

MR NGUBANE: Now you say that you knew that it belonged to a certain Mlaba, that motor vehicle. Were you aware of its activities in Mpumalanga?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I heard complaints about it. People will say theyíd seen it there and there, but I have no specific knowledge of what it did.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, let Mr Ngubane ask a question.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chair. You used the Zulu word "kalangiyo", which means "theyíre crying about it". What was the cry all about?

MR DLAMINI: As Iíve mentioned, this car was driven by Mpashaza. He was well-known in Mpumalanga. He will drive this car anywhere he wanted because he knew that people were afraid of him. That is what I know.

MR NGUBANE: Alright Mr Dlamini, Iíll move on. You said that you operated in the Maritzburg area known as Sinatingi for quite some time, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: When you were working there, did you hear some names of people that were targets of the Inkatha people, the UDF people that were the targets of the Inkatha people?

MR DLAMINI: Please repeat the question.

MR NGUBANE: Where you aware of certain people that were the targets of the Inkatha people there in Sinatingi?

MR DLAMINI: No, I do not know of anyone.

MR NGUBANE: The name Aaron Mabuza - Iím referring to this name because Iím instructed that there was an attack on his funeral at some stage - on the people from his funeral at some stage. Do you know anything about that name?

MR DLAMINI: ...(no English translation)

MR NGUBANE: No, no, no, Iím not suggesting that itís you who attacked, Iím just asking you whether you know about the incident when the people from the funeral of Aaron Mabuza at Sinatingi were attacked by the Inkatha people?

MR DLAMINI: There were a lot of funeral processions that passed by the place where I guarded, so I would not know which was his.

MR NGUBANE: Well did you attack any people from the UDF or to the UDF funeral in Sinatingi, at any stage?

MR DLAMINI: As I mentioned earlier on, I did shoot some people who were proceeding to a funeral.

MR NGUBANE: Okay. The - you operated in Mpumalanga until roundabout 1991, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Were you in this area of Mpumalanga when the police station was officially opened?

MR DLAMINI: No I was not here.

MR NGUBANE: Now the incident that took place in Malangeni cemetery where UDF people were slaughtered, do you know anything about that incident?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Okay. If the Committee can just bear with me. Now this David Ntombela, is it correct that at one stage you were his guard - David Ntombela of Pietermaritzburg?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did he order you to conduct certain operations at any stage?

MR DLAMINI: No. Iíve never operated there, I went to guard the house. I stayed there for two weeks and left the place.

MR NGUBANE: Now you have mentioned certain people that were involved in these acts which could either be described as political acts, or criminal acts. What do you - do you - if ever they get charged, what is your attitude regarding giving evidence against them?

MR DLAMINI: Chairperson I would be greatly pleased if I could give evidence, because they should also explain as Iíve just done here, about things that happened.

MR NGUBANE: Are you co-operating with any structure in investigating criminal acts - in investigating criminal - with a view of laying criminal charges against these people at any stage?

MR DLAMINI: I could also help in that regard.

MR NGUBANE: No, no, my question is, at the moment are you involved with any structure that is investigating any of the criminal acts involving the people you have implicated?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chair I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Hewitt do you have any questions to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT: Yes I do Mr Chairman. I wanted you to go back to the Woody Glen/Injubakazi incident, and I want to refer you to page 388 of your affidavit where you state at the end of paragraph 1, the first paragraph, thatís in paragraph 30:

"I was aware that Kay was a taxi war-lord from the area. I had agreed to assist him on the basis that the instruction had come from Mudla Induna, my commander."

So is the position that Lethuli had told you to assist this taxi war-lord?

MR DLAMINI: Kay was a prominent IFP member. Besides the fact that he owned taxiís, he was an IFP member, therefore his going to Mudla Induna was on the basis of that. He went there to request assistance from Mudla Induna.

MR HEWITT: Yes, all I want you to do is to confirm that Lethal, also known as Mudla Induna, told you to assist this person whom you in your affidavit have described as a taxi war-lord. Is that correct, yes or no?

MR DLAMINI: This name "war-lord", I do not agree with because when this incident happened, the taxi violence had not as yet started.

MR HEWITT: Alright, well whether you say now or not that you agree with the use of the word "war-lord", I want to ask you this question, and this question is this, I want you to listen to my definition of a taxi war-lord and I would like you to tell me whether you agree with my definition of a taxi war-lord. Do you understand?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Right. My definition of a taxi war-lord is a person who has - who owns taxiís or has an interest in taxiís, and it is his business to make money out of the running of taxiís. Do you agree with my definition of that person so far?

MR DLAMINI: No I do not agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think finish your definition because at the moment it would include every single person involved in the taxi business.

MR HEWITT: And such a person is called a taxi war-lord because he ruthlessly pursues that business, even to the point of having his competitors injured or killed, and also the people who use his competitorsí taxiís. Thatís why heís called a taxi war-lord. Would you agree with that definition Iíve given you?

MR DLAMINI: I disagree with you.

MR HEWITT: Alright. You told us that you donít like a description of this person any longer, as it appears in your affidavit that he was a taxi war-lord. Would you tell us what you call a taxi war-lord?

MR DLAMINI: This word refers to the activities that we carried out that you actually pay people to kill other people.

MR HEWITT: Are you saying your definition of a taxi war-lord is a person who pays other people to have them killed - his opposition or opponents or enemies killed, is that your definition of a taxi war-lord?

MR DLAMINI: Yes thatís how I would put it.

MR HEWITT: So in other words you, like myself, would define a taxi war-lord as a criminal, with slight differences on the description of that criminal, but heís a criminal who is prepared to murder. Weíre agreed on that definition then are we?

MR DLAMINI: Yes thatís correct.

MR HEWITT: Would you describe Kay, as youíve done in your affidavit which you made under oath, would you disagree with the description that Kay was such a person?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, I do not agree that he was a taxi war-lord, because he was a taxi owner. If I remember correctly, I do not remember him issuing a command that his opponents should be killed. Even if it happened, I have never heard of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hewitt, but Mr Dlamini, Mr Hewitt is asking you these questions because of what you have stated in your application, and if I may just read it again - this comes from your affidavit at page 388 of the papers, page 114 of your affidavit, and itís the last sentence of the first paragraph of paragraph 30 - and this is what you say, and youíre talking about the time of the Woody Glen/Injubakazi incident, and you say"

"I was aware that Kay was a taxi war-lord from the area. I had agreed to assist him on the basis that the instruction had come from Mudla Induna, my commander."

Now you say that you were at that time aware that he was a war-lord, thatís what you say in your affidavit. Now you say that you disagree with that because at the time of the Woody Glen incident, the taxi war hadnít started. What exactly is the position, why then if that was the case, did you describe him in your affidavit as a taxi war-lord?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, I said that I knew Kay as a person who owned taxiís. It could be that there might have been a mistake in the translation, but I knew Kay as a person who owned taxiís. But it could be that because of the long elapsing of time, the person may have written "war-lord", but I did not say that.

MR HEWITT: Are you now saying that you affidavit where it describes him as a war-lord, which on your own definition is a criminal in business, is wrong - the person who wrote the affidavit out wrote it incorrectly for you?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR HEWITT: Did you read the affidavit before you signed it?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I read it.

MR HEWITT: You see I have another difficulty with your affidavit where it relates to the Woody Glen/Injubakazi incident, and it is this, is that nowhere in your description in the affidavit over the killings, the fighting involved in that incident, do you refer to it as being a fight between the IFP and the UDF. Can you explain that omission from your affidavit?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, perhaps the witnessís attention should be drawn to the 3rd sentence in paragraph 30. I know that he doesnít read English well. It doesnít refer to specifically what my learned friend has referred to, the IFP and the ANC, it refers to areas.

MR HEWITT: Well then my learned friendís objection, with respect, is ill-founded. My question is quite legitimate, with respect Mr Chairman, and I would like an answer from this witness as to why thereís no reference whatsoever in the description of the incidents under the Woody Glen/Injubakazi incident of fighting between the UDF and the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, youíll answer the question Mr Dlamini. Iíll just point out to you that in the affidavit you did make mention of the fact that the Woody Glen area was an Inkatha area, but you make no mention of the conflict that was taking place in either the Woody Glen or Injubakazi as being specifically related to conflict between the two political factions, namely UDF on the one hand, and Inkatha on the other. Mr Hewitt wants to know why didnít you make mention of that in your affidavit.

MR DLAMINI: I think that the person who wrote this did not actually include what Iím saying. What I would like to say Sir, is that there was a lot of activities that went around when we were writing the statements, so mistaken may have been committed.

MR HEWITT: You see I just want to explain to you why Iím asking you these questions now so you understand. In Durban when Mr Lethal, Mudla Induna as you call him, gave evidence. It emerged that payment was received by himself and others for assisting a businessman in killing an opponent, and if Iím not mistaken Mr Chairman, it was in the Clermont area. Now what I want to suggest to you, is that the probability is that your instruction from Mr Lethal, this time, was to merely rid another businessman of his opponent. What do you say about that, as a probability? The businessman this time being one from the Woody Glen/Injubakazi area named Kay. Whatís your comment on that?

MR DLAMINI: I would say that is not correct. I mentioned that Injubakazi was a UDF stronghold, therefore we went there to attack the UDF area. The taxi business had no role to play in this incident. It must be remembered that Kay is an IFP member, besides the fact that he owns taxiís. He went to Mudla Induna to request assistance on the basis that he was an IFP member, not that he was going to pay - I have never received payment for killing anyone.

MR HEWITT: So what youíre saying is that the two mistakes, the one omission and the one incorrect reference to war-lord in your affidavit, gives one the wrong impression about what this fighting was about, is that what youíre saying to me - but thatís because of mistakes of the person who took your affidavit, not through you? Is that correct, have I summarised your evidence correctly now?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, thatís what I was saying.

MR HEWITT: Thank you Mr Chairman Iíve got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hewitt, with due respect, I do not agree with your understanding of that paragraph.

MR HEWITT: Well thatís probably really a matter for argument then at the ...(intervention)

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes, because if I can just refer to the words which have been used in that paragraph, there is a reference to the words "faction fights" between the residents of Woody Glen and residents of Injubakazi, and there is also a reference to "area indifferences". Then there is a reference to a policeman known as Mkupuleni Kumede who had left the Woody Glen - who had left the Injubakazi area precisely because of the conflict and had gone to stay at Woody Glen which was an Inkatha area. So I think there was this conflict, the way I read it.

MR HEWITT: No, I am mindful of those paragraphs. I think the issue Madam Committee Member, is what the reason for the conflict was. I know there are those references to - itís obviously a typing error where it says "area indifferences", it obviously is "area differences", and there clearly is the reference to "faction fighting". I think what the issue is, and which obviously is more suitably dealt with at argument level, is what the probabilities are arising out of omissions to deal with a reference to the political divides in the area, and descriptions of certain people sitting at - wanting assistance by virtue of their occupation which has been described here. I think thatís the issue. I am mindful of those issues, thatís why I confined my questions to this witness in fairness to him, to an absence of a reference between IFP and an absence of a reference to UDF involved in the clashes.

CHAIRPERSON: It can be raised at an argument. Thank you Mr Hewitt. Mr Dladla do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DLADLA: Yes one question Mr Chairperson. Mr Dlamini, before you attacked the Mpafanaís house, did you know whether there were people in that house or not - just before you attacked?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I did know.

MR DLADLA: And you told this Committee that before - during the attack you heard people screaming from inside the house, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR DLADLA: Iím interested to know whether those screams were from - were those people women or children or - can you describe ...(inaudible)

MR DLAMINI: It was a mixture, there were women and men, old people and young children.

MR DLADLA: So there were children and women in that house, thatís what you are telling this Committee?

MR DLAMINI: I did mention that it was a UDF stronghold, and women would sometimes be present.

MR DLADLA: Even children?

MR DLAMINI: No, no children.

MR DLADLA: Pardon Mr Dlamini, youíve just said that there were also screams of - children were also crying inside that house, did I hear you correct or not?

MR DLAMINI: Children could not remain at a camp, thatís why I am saying they were not there. But young men were there.

MR DLADLA: No further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DLADLA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Stewart do you have any re-examination?

MR STEWART: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Khampepe do you have any questions?

MS KHAMPEPE: I have ...(inaudible) I only have two questions Chairperson. As a result of your responses to Mr Hewittís cross-examination with regard to the inclusion of the word "war-lord", taxi war-lord, when reference was made to Kay, what I want to find out is, would it have mattered to you whether Kay was a war-lord or not if Lethuli who was then your commandeering ...(indistinct) had given you instructions to assist Kay?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, Kay, I helped him as a member of - an IFP member, not as a war-lord, not as a taxi war-lord. No itís not like that at all.

MS KHAMPEPE: You donít understand my question. All I want to know is whether it would have mattered at all whether Kay was a war-lord or not if you had received instructions from Mr Lethal, who we understand was your commander as a Caprivi an. Do you understand the gist of my question?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I do understand your question. No, I wouldnít have helped him if I knew that he was a taxi war-lord. I wouldnít dare help him because the taxi war-lord pays, so I wasnít paid for doing all the acts by the taxi owners, I was just working as an IFP member.

MS KHAMPEPE: So you are saying that you would have defied a direct instruction form your commandeering chief if you had known that you were now being ordered to assist as person who was a taxi lord?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, even the commander - if the commander says something that is not in line with you, you can actually tell this person that "no I canít do this, you can even kill me", if I realise that this is not in line with my organisation. Why would you agree to do it. I didnít see the reason, I wouldnít agree if a person is leading me to such a thing, that itís not in line with my organisation.

MS KHAMPEPE: When you were a Caprivi an and in promoting the interest of your organisation, what kind of attacks were your authorised to launch against UDF members, can you remunerate them? Youíve mentioned that you could burn houses belonging to UDF members; youíve mentioned the stabbing of UDF members, or people perceived to be UDF members; youíve mentioned shooting members of the UDF. Are there other attacks that you authorised or that you bona fide believed that you were authorised to carry out in launching attacks?

MR DLAMINI: If my memory serves me well, thatís what I still remember that we should attack them, stab, shoot, and thatís all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Moloi do you have any questions.

MR MOLOI: Thank you I have no questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata do you have any questions?

MR MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson Iíve got no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And just one, from the evidence youíve given Mr Dlamini, itís clear that you operated in this area for some time after your Caprivi training from 1987 through to 1991 more or less, during which period you were involved in a number of incidents, a number of attacks and counter-attacks - or a number of incidents where you repelled attacks, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes itís like that.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet you say after each and every single incident youíre not sure whether you killed or injured any person, except in the one incidence you say you did shoot and you saw people fall. Are you saying that throughout your period operating in this area, you today are still not sure whether you killed any person?

MR DLAMINI: Well I donít have Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart any questions arising?

MR STEWART: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: No questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: No thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane - it always happens at this stage of the proceedings.

GENERAL LAUGHTER

MR NGUBANE: No questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dladla.

MR DLADLA: No questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dlamini you may stand down.

WITNESS IS EXCUSED

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 13 AUGUST 1998

HELD AT: HAMMARSDALE

NAME: B NDLOVU

DAY: 3

_______________________________________________________BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Wills sorry, before you commence - are your full names Bertwell Bheki Ndlovu?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I think in fairness to this applicant it would be appropriate for me to put the fact on record that I was instructed by the Legal Aid Board in respect of this applicant on the date that the application was signed. And as a result of that - and I seem to recall that the cut-off date was looming for amnesty applications to be submitted, with the result that I have not had detailed instructions from the client, and neither have I been involved in any of the court cases that this individual has been involved in prior to me being instructed, unlike the case with the other applicants where Iíve had a rather long history. That is the result - I mean that has resulted in the fact of his application being rather terse and short, and it is our intention at this stage to expand reasonably considerably on the rather brief details given in the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Wills.

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Mr Ndlovu you were born in Mpumalanga, Unit 2, in 1970?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: You schooled in Mpumalanga?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: And at a relatively young age you became involved in the activities of the IFP, is that right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: In fact unlike what appears in your amnesty application, you actually became involved in the IFP in 1984 when you were 14 years of age, not in 1980, that was a mistake in your application, is that right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us how you got involved with the IFP?

MR NDLOVU: I started being involved in the IFP when it was still a liberation movement. I was staying at Woody Glen at that time. There was a central committee of the youth at the time. Boys my age were collected and were encouraged to become involved in the IFP Youth League. They would patrol the area at night because they were suspicious that Mr RD Sishi who worked with a committee of councillors called "Mpoera".

MR WILLS: This is a civic organisation, is that correct - Mpoera?

MR NDLOVU: Yes something of that nature, I am not well versed with it.

MR WILLS: Yes, and did you get involved voluntarily?

MR NDLOVU: No Bengo Makateni came to me, he was with some other person who in the youth committee at that time.

MR WILLS: Yes, sorry, just for the record, this acronym that I referred to, "Mpoera", stands for Mpumalanga Residents Association, is that correct Mr Ndlovu?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now you were from the Woody Glen area, who was the IFP leader in that area at the time?

MR NDLOVU: It was Mrs Thlontlo.

MR WILLS: And is she also known as Mrs Ngoma, thatís another name for her?

MR NDLOVU: Mamo Ngoma because she was a Sangoma.

MR WILLS: Now in - can you describe the activities you got involved in in those early days when you were a member of the IFP Youth?

MR NDLOVU: At the time we used to patrol and we will be posted at other peopleís homes that if, maybe encounter a problem if people came to attack, you would be supposed to fight with them. Nothing happened at that time until such time that an organisation called HYCO was formed ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Just letís stop there, HYCO being the Hammarsdale Youth Congress?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, it was a movement for scholars. This organisation was founded by Mashu and some of his colleagues.

MR WILLS: Just - if you can just slow down. Mr Ndlovu thereís a lot of people who are trying to listen to what youíre saying, and also the interpreters have to interpret to the members of the community. Youíve got all day, you donít have to rush.

This person you referred to as being the founder-member of HYCO was the person called Mashu, is that right?

MR NDLOVU: Yes thatís correct, he in collaboration with others.

MR WILLS: Yes, and he was the same person that Nyoni Hlongwane referred to yesterday in his evidence, is that correct, do you recall that?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So okay, continue.

MR NDLOVU: At that time they had a practice of removing children from school. They said Kwa-Zulu schools should be boycotted and they would sometimes stop drugs, bringing groceries to shops, and sometimes they would attack counsellors saying that they were Mr Bothaís stooges, and they would burn counsellorsí offices.

At that time leaders from the Mpumalanga area were concerned about this because we were approached in Woody Glen that we should assist in fighting these people because the schools were built and the teachers were being paid from our parentsí income, therefore what these boys were doing was very bad.

MR WILLS: Yes, and is it not so that you attended certain camps as a result of you being associated with the IFP Youth in the area?

MR NDLOVU: There was a camp near the Weber area. There were rumours that the UDF was coming into the township because this was the only township that did not have the UDF. We were given knives, bush-knives, to go camp at that area. We would search cars and busses that would come into the area.

We camped there for a while because nothing happened. Instead we later discovered, or we were told, that those people that we were supposed to guard against had already, were already in our midst. At that time the police would come and would enquire from older people and people who were educated, they would inform them that there was nothing happening, everything was fine, and the police would leave.

MR WILLS: Yes, so - I mean is it your evidence that the police would know that you were conducting these searches of vehicles coming into the Hammarsdale area?

MR NDLOVU: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And which police are these that youíre referring to?

MR NDLOVU: South African Police.

MR WILLS: Now, just quickly Mr Ndlovu, what standard of education do you have?

MR NDLOVU: I left school early, in standard 4.

MR WILLS: Mr Ndlovu, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN

MR WILLS: At the stage prior to you being trained as a special constable, youíre not applying for amnesty in respect of anything you did in that period, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: I do not understand Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: The incidents in respect of which you are applying for amnesty, those incidents all occurred after you had been trained as a special constable during the course of 1988, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Chair, I think that I am seeking amnesty for activities that occurred in Mpumalanga before I joined the Police Force and after I joined the Police Force.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ndlovu your - can you specify incidents which occurred prior to the 17th of June 1991, because your application form states that youíre applying for incidents in respect of murder and attempted murder from 17 June 1991 to 17 December 1991. Sorry ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, possibly ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thereís also: "during 1988" on another form.

MR WILLS: If I could assist Mr Chair ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly, I think you just lead the witness on.

MR WILLS: Is it not correct - Mr Ndlovu I donít want you to get confused here, weíre obviously going to be telling the Amnesty Committee and the members of the community about everything that youíve done and all of your involvement in respect of politics and political involvement up until you were eventually incarcerated, do you understand that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: But is it not so that there are essentially three areas in respect of which you are applying for amnesty, and the first would be that involving the death of a - sorry Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On Bongane Ntombela, is that the one?

MR WILLS: Thatís the third and the last incident. Okay, that occurred in 1991. Do you recall that? Thatís the last incident, and after that incident, soon after that incident you were arrested and youíve been in custody since that incident, apart from a short period when you were out on bail. Is that right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Then youíre also applying for amnesty for the death of a certain Msomi, a person by the name of Msomi, who you will tell the Committee you believed was a reverend, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: That, according to my instructions occurred during some time in 1989 to the best of your recollections, is that right?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: And then the other incidents you are applying for amnesty concern attacks when you were stationed at Ndwedwe and there are attacks on ANC areas, and there are two incidents there, thereís an attack which weíre going to get into the details of in respect of where a pregnant woman was killed and a black male. Thatís the first incident, do you confirm that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes thatís correct.

MR WILLS: And then the second incident involved what I can loosely describe, an attack on a meeting that was taking place at a school in Ndwedwe, is that right?

MR NDLOVU: Yes thatís correct.

MR WILLS: Now to my knowledge as your legal representative, that is the extent of your amnesty application. Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And these Ndwedwe incidents occurred in 1990, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct?

MR WILLS: To the best of your recollection?

MR NDLOVU: Yes thatís correct.

MR WILLS: So logic dictates that if you were trained as a special constable in 1988, then your amnesty application deals with issues that occurred after 1988, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) during 1988, yes.

MR WILLS: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson. Thereís just also one issue that I must clear up in case Iíve mislead the community in this regard, and that is the application in respect of the death of Bongane Ntombela will also include an application in respect of the attempted murders in that incident. Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now ...(intervention)

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills, on a point of clarity, has he applied for the murder of the pregnant woman? I donít recall coming across that incident in his formal application.

MR WILLS: Thank you Ms Committee Member. Basically his involvement there, as will become apparent, is minimal, but it is included in what was described in his application as the attacks on the ANC in the Ndwedwe area.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR WILLS: I see itís just about 1 oíclock. Possibly this is a time to take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I see that itís correct, itís on 1 oíclock. We will now take the lunch adjournment.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Ndlovu I remind you that youíre still under your former oath.

MR NDLOVU: Yes thank you.

MR WILLS: Thank you members of the Committee, Mr Chairperson. Before lunch Mr Ndlovu, we were talking about the type of fighting that you were involved in before you went to the special - the training to be special constable in Koeberg, do you recall that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Now I want you to describe to the Amnesty Committee the type of fighting it was, and what weapons were used at that stage.

MR NDLOVU: Knives and butcher knives, stones.

MR WILLS: Did - before you went for training as a special constable, did you ever fight with firearms, guns?

MR NDLOVU: No.

MR WILLS: Now you went during 1998 to be trained as a special constable. How was it that it came about that you went for this special constable training?

MR NDLOVU: There at Woody Glen people who were known very well that they are working for the IFP truthfully, and they were actually volunteering or give themselves to fight for IFP. We were also taken to be part of them, it was myself, Siphiso Ntuli, if my memory serves me well, and Walter Zulu, and we went through it in Maritzburg.

MR WILLS: Yes and then you eventually went down to Koeberg were you were trained as special constable. Can you briefly tell us what type of training you received?

MR NDLOVU: We were trained we must shoot the 500 shotgun.

MR WILLS: Yes, and what were you trained about the ANC and the UDF?

MR NDLOVU: And it just happened that on Sundays in the evenings we would actually be shown videos whereby we will be shown torture that was used by the UDF people whereby the IFP people were burnt and all the other things. And all that we were shown and that actually wasnít good on us, and therefore it was indeed the truth that these people are the problem and we should do away with them.

MR WILLS: Now were you taught about detective work or normal police work?

MR NDLOVU: Please repeat the question.

MR WILLS: Iím asking you if you were trained in the areas that one would expect a policeman to be trained in, for example in either detective work or other types of normal policing activities?

MR NDLOVU: No we were special constables.

MR WILLS: Now you completed your training and then you returned to Maritzburg for a short while, and then you were sent up to Ulundi, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

MR WILLS: And then a colonel Dube posted you to, for a short while, at Kwamakuta, and then afterwards you were posted to Ndwedwe. Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes it is.

MR WILLS: Now why was it decided that you were to be posted to Ndwedwe?

MR NDLOVU: I will just elaborate on that Chair. It wasnít myself only that was sent to Ndwedwe. When we arrived there at Ulundi, there were three of us and we found others who were actually also from Maritzburg, but who left before. There were about 30, all of us were 33. And colonel Dube said, who was in charge of Reaction Unit by that particular time, our job is mainly at Ndwedwe whereby we have to finish violence because the situation there is bad and tense. It was the middle - those people there were bothered by their comrades.

MR WILLS: Now when you got to Ndwedwe, who did you receive instructions from, was it from police persons or was it from other persons? Because as I understand it you went to Ndwedwe as a police unit, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes. There Mr Mfayela was working with the Kwa-Zulu Police offices. He would come and speak to Martin Kanyele who was one of the Caprivians whom we were working there, and constable Mtaba, his nickname was Makobute. Heís one of the people, one of the Caprivians. Those are the people who were giving instructions, and Mfayela whom that we were directly working with.

MR WILLS: Now this person Mr Mfayela, was he a policeman?

MR NDLOVU: No he was not. He was just the leader there at Ndwedwe.

MR WILLS: What - in respect of what was he a leader?

MR NDLOVU: He was the IFP leader there.

MR WILLS: So your evidence is to the effect that the IFP leader was giving you and the other persons in the Kwa-Zulu Police instructions as to what your duties should be?

MR NDLOVU: He wasnít actually giving me the instructions directly, he used to give those who are my superiors.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now it was during your stay at Ndwedwe that the first incident occurred. Youíve indicated to me that you were on a period of leave from your duties at Ndwedwe when you returned home to Mpumalanga when the first incident occurred, and by that I refer to the death of Mr Msomi, do you recall that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

MR WILLS: Now I want you to explain to the Amnesty Committee the circumstances surrounding the death of Mr Msomi.

MR NDLOVU: Chair, when I arrived I used to off 7 days because I was working 21 days. I used to take off for 7 days. When I arrived at home I stayed some few days. When I arrived, if Iím not mistaken, Jack Gomede was sent by ...(indistinct) Ntuli to call me. When we arrived there he told me that there is a job that we have to do, and I asked what type of job that we have to do.

MR WILLS: When you say he told you, who are you referring to?

MR NDLOVU: Iím talking about Mudla Induna. We must carry out a duty at D-section where we should kill Mr Msomi who was alleged to be an ANC leader, and was working with ANC. And then indeed we left, it was at night. It was myself, Jack - Jack had HMC, I had the 9mm which I took from Lanie Nshlengo, and Jack got it from Mzu. When we arrived there at D we didnít find him in his house, Mr Msomi, and we were told he was at the neighbourís house.

When we arrived there the neighbours who actually saw when we approached because the door was open, and then we asked for him - but we decided to enter. He said we should enter, but then we asked him to come out because we needed help because thereís somebody who was actually injured. And then he took only two steps and then we shot him, thatís how we shot him.

MR WILLS: Now you say "we shot him", did you yourself actually shoot?

MR NDLOVU: Yes indeed.

MR WILLS: And you used - for this purpose you used the 9mm pistol that you had got for the operation, is that right?

MR NDLOVU: Yes indeed.

MR WILLS: And as I understand your evidence, there was - you were accompanied on this mission by a certain Jack Gomede, is that correct, who you said was armed with a HMC?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: And did this person Jack Gomede also shoot Mr Msomi?

MR NDLOVU: Yes itís like that.

MR WILLS: Did Mr Msomi die as a result of the wounds he received?

MR NDLOVU: Yes he did.

MR WILLS: Now what did you do after you had shot Mr Msomi?

MR NDLOVU: Thereafter we ran away, we went back. We took these guns that we had and we took it back to their owners, and then we continued with our journey. We went to our homes, and we reported this to Mudla Induna that we finished the job, and then he told us to be quiet about this. Indeed this is for the first time that Iím talking about this now.

MR WILLS: Yes. I just want to get a little bit more clarity on how you acquired the weapon, 9 mm pistol, which you used. Can you just explain that to us. You said ...(intervention)

MR NDLOVU: Chair, Dul Thlontlo said I must go to Mpumlani Nshlengo where I will get this 9mm which I will use. Indeed I did that, and then I found it.

MR WILLS: And after the incident you returned this firearm to the same Mpumlani Nshlengo?

MR NDLOVU: Yes itís like that.

MR WILLS: You have also advised me of an incident in respect of which youíre not applying for amnesty for, but which involved the shooting at a combi in Mpumalanga. Can you just briefly explain to the Committee what occurred in that incident.

MR NDLOVU: ...(indistinct) Mr Chairman, here at Mpumalanga the taxiís were no longer straight to Unit 4 and Woody Glen. Now they used another route. Our person - if that person, a person belonging to our side would bother the taxi mistakenly, would actually be taken out on the first stop, and that person would be burned and killed. The drivers wouldnít do anything, and they would just be quiet.

And the incidences would continue, for instance the first person - the person who was killed, it was Mteto on the first stop. He was actually a resident there at Woody Glen, he was killed there. Also at Sigogobele, the second step, the same thing happened to IFP people used to be taken out of the taxiís, they ...(indistinct) there at Kentucky. The taxiís used to use that route, not the other route. It is then that we realised that there at the corner at Kentucky, we must stop there and shoot the very same drivers because they are also partaking in what the comrades are doing, that is taking people out of the taxiís, and they wouldnít do anything when the comrades are doing that. And we also shot at these taxi drivers.

MR WILLS: Yes, but do you know if in this incident anyone was killed or that you even hit the taxi?

MR NDLOVU: I donít have any knowledge, Iíve never had. I donít know whether a person died or whatsoever.

MR WILLS: Did you see if the taxi stopped, or did it continue driving after you shot at it?

MR NDLOVU: Chair, as we up on the hill the road there is steep going down. Itís not easy for you to go and peep there what is happening because itís going down. Because that happens the taxi is overturning, and lightning also was moving up and down, and we were trying to escape from it.

MR WILLS: Now I want you to turn now to the other areas in respect of which youíre applying for amnesty. Those are the incidents involving the attacks on the ANC at Ndwedwe. Now the first incident you instructed me about is the death of a pregnant woman and a black male in Ndwedwe. Can you just tell the Committee what occurred there.

MR NDLOVU: Chair as I was working there at Ndwedwe, we used to patrol there, did the truck 325 patrolling in the place Sindeswene, and that area is the stronghold of ANC. Thatís where we were patrolling. While we still standing looking down at a place called Ekunjini where the houses were burnt the previous day, looking at that area, we heard a bullet from across on the opposite direction, directed to us. That is people who were standing there on the yard in that house.

We were not aware whether that person had a 303 or R1, but we actually then ducked. And then we realised that the truck - the truck wonít reach that area easily, and then we used the walkie-talkie that the - a small van must be sent so that we can go to that house and actually check those people who are shooting at us. When the ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Just - sorry Mr Ndlovu, I just want to get some clarity. As I understand your evidence you were patrolling as a Kwa-Zulu Policeman in a Kwa-Zulu Police vehicle when this incident occurred.

MR NDLOVU: Not a van, a truck, the Police truck 235.

MR WILLS: Yes, and when you say you used the walkie-talkie to call a van, you used the police vehicle to contact the police station in order that they could send a police van, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, the walkie-talkie that was in the truck to call those at the police station so that they can give us a van that we can use to work in that house because the truck is slow, it wonít reach that area quickly because those people by then would have escaped.

MR WILLS: Okay, continue.

MR NDLOVU: When the van arrived it was driven by - Dlamini was in it, Boy Ngobo, a sergeant. And in front there was station commander Mogwaza who was a sergeant there at Ndwedwe. At the back there were three special constables, Dlamini, Mtelezi ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Sorry I missed the other name. Oh there were two Dlaminiís.

MR NDLOVU: And the third one was Mtelezi. I entered in that van and Martin Kanyele. When this van left it went directly to that house where those people were standing, the people who were shooting us.

When we were just approaching that house a petrol bomb was directed to the van and the van almost overturned. And then we stopped, and then we came out and station commander then said we should go there. When we arrived there we surrounded the house, and Mtelezi, Dlamini were at the front and they knocked there, and there was no response. And then Dlamini shot at the door and it was open.

And when the doors opened the son there in that house was there, and Mtelezi then shot that boy and he fell. Thereafter when Ngobo came a sergeant he realised that that was the case, and then realised that we could be arrested. So this person must just be killed now because that was not the case. And then thatís how the person was killed. And thereafter ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Sorry, who actually killed this person, do you recall?

MR NDLOVU: Dlamini finished off.

MR WILLS: By shooting him?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR WILLS: Continue.

MR NDLOVU: By that time we had explosives, there were cottages in that house - backrooms. When I went there because I heard the gunshot, in that backyard Martin was standing there and told me that "I just shot a girl there", and when I enter, itís a female who was pregnant, and sheís dead.

MR WILLS: And who was that that had shot this woman?

MR NDLOVU: Martin Kanyele.

MR WILLS: Now from your evidence it seems clear that at that stage you didnít kill anyone, is that right?

MR NDLOVU: No, by then I hadnít because I was at the corner of the house, I was approaching and Mogwaza was down there watching the car.

MR WILLS: So why are you applying for amnesty in respect of this incident?

MR NDLOVU: The actual fact is that I know that times will go by and that the case - the court case will actually come out, and no-one was arrested there. So I want everything that happened while I was there, I want it to be revealed and to be know that I was also there, although I was not directly involved. But it should be know that that what happened there, I was around myself.

MR WILLS: And is it not so that despite the fact that you were a policeman at that stage, and despite the fact that being a policeman you had a duty to report crimes, and you failed to report the crime.

MR NDLOVU: Yes itís like that. The sergeant was there, and something was supposed to be done, but nothing happened.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now I want you to turn to the second incident you referred to in regard to attacks on ANC areas in Ndwedwe. That involves the incident where you were involved in an attack at a school. Can you explain or give the details of that incident to the Committee Members?

MR NDLOVU: On a certain day, although I do not remember when, we were patrolling in the Ndwedwe area. The soldiers worked hand in hand with the ANC. I would like to explain this. Because of this fact these soldiers were directed by the ANC to raid Mr Mfayelaís house. And at that house they stole an amount of R3000-00, and we did not know how we could in fact get ourselves involved in this incident.

We therefore decided that some Telewenies should go to Osendiswene and wait for them, and they should in fact throw oranges and apples into the hippos because the soldiers normally thought that when you throw something into the hippo, it was a grenade, a hand grenade. When the soldiers came to report this incident at the police station we were called to intervene, and we asked them why they worked with the Verulam Police Station instead of us.

They then started working with us, and from that time each battalion had two policemen working with them. I was in one and Moosa Pungula was in the other. As we were patrolling around Sindeswene and we passed a certain school, I did not know its name. A group of people from the area who apparently had been holding a meeting came out and ran away. We did not discuss this, but we just started shooting.

MR WILLS: Now why did you shoot - I mean, who did you think you were shooting at?

MR NDLOVU: Not that we thought of it. We knew it for a fact that these were ANC people because Inkatha people did not go into that area, and normally after theyíd held a meeting the houses will be burnt and people will be killed. I remember one day we had to go collect corpses from that area who had been killed by the people of Sindeswene.

MR WILLS: You say you shot at this crowd, do you know if anybody was killed, or injured?

MR NDLOVU: Some did get injured because the commander came to report that some people had been shot at at Sindeswene and some were injured, but I donít know exactly how many were injured. No-one died in that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, just one question.

Mr Ndlovu when you were firing at this group of people, can you give an estimation of the distance that you were away from them when you were shooting - how far away were they from you?

MR NDLOVU: I think from where I am they were about at that first door.

CHAIRPERSON: I think weíve estimated that at about 30 paces, do you agree?

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: About 30 paces.

MR WILLS: May I continue? Mr Ndlovu Iím not sure, I canít recall exactly who shot, you said you were patrolling with the SADF at that stage. Was it just you who shot or were there other people who shot?

MR NDLOVU: I and Moosa Pungula as well as the soldiers shot at these people. The SADF used R.4, and we used shotguns.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many soldiers were there with you who shot, can you give us some indication?

MR Ndlovu: If my memory serves me well, I think about 12 in total.

MR WILLS: As I understand, your position is that the soldiers were in fact in two vehicles, is that correct, and there were about 6 soldiers in each vehicle?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: But can you say that you saw all of those 12 soldiers shoot, or not?

MR NDLOVU: When people are firing it is difficult to look around and see if everybodyís firing, but shots were being fired, and then they only stopped when they realised that the people were running too far away from them.

MR WILLS: Now were you ever arrested or prosecuted, or charged in respect of this incident?

MR NDLOVU: No.

MR WILLS: The final incident which we want to apply for amnesty for Mr Ndlovu, is the death of Bongane Ntombela. Now this occurred in the Pietermaritzburg area, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

MR WILLS: Now as I understand your history at about that time, after being stationed in Ndwedwe, you were then stationed in Mpumalanga for a while. Is that right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And then you received a message to travel to Pietermaritzburg for a specific reason, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now can you tell us what happened then - can you tell us how you got to Maritzburg?

MR NDLOVU: Chair, Mr Lethal came to me in a private car one evening. He told me he had been looking for me for a long while. When I enquired why, he said MZ Khumalo had informed him that his son had been attacked at Imbali at a house near WP Ndlovuís home. Therefore he wanted people to go guard that house and, "because the only person that I trust, I thought I should I come approach you". And he asked me where Siphiso Lethal is, and I told him he must be at his home, and we went to look for him. This was on a Thursday, I think on the 28th of November. We found Siphiso at his home and he packed his belongings, and we left. When we arrived at Imbali it was at night, and Mr MZís son was not at home and he had not left the key. We were then forced to return back. I and Mudla Induna returned and we left Siphiso Lethal at WP Ndlovuís home.

At about 5am the following day Mudla Induna had come to pick me up, and we left, but before we went to Pietermaritzburg we went to the Durban office of the IFP and he make a call to MZ Khumalo and told him that he had found people to go guard his son. After Durban we went to Pietermaritzburg and he left us there.

MR WILLS: Yes, I just want you to give a bit more detail in relation to the houses and where they were situated. Can you tell us what the political affiliation of the persons were who resided in that area where those houses were situated?

MR NDLOVU: The house in which Mr Khumaloís resided was at a corner in Unit 2 near Mr WP Ndlovuís home, who is a member of Parliament. In the area those were the only two houses that I regarded as Inkatha houses, the rest belonged to the comrades.

MR WILLS: Yes. So your duty was then to guard Mr Khumaloís son, then it transpired that you killed Bongane. Can you tell us how this occurred.

MR NDLOVU: When we arrived at Pietermaritzburg a certain policeman by the surname of Nwabe was to be buried at the weekend. This policeman was said to have been shot by comrades and his service pistol was stolen. Mr ...(indistinct) Lethal had told us about this incident, and he warned us to be careful when we were there.

One day when we were going to a hostel, it was myself, ME Ndlovu, a person who guarded Mr WP Ndlovuís house, Siphiso Lethal, and Mr Khumaloís son. There were four of us. We had an HMC and a shotgun. Siphiso had a shotgun, ME Ndlovu had a HMC. On our way to the hostel we encountered a crowd of people. These people must have been comrades because IFP members do not use that road, we used it because we had guns. And when they saw us they just started running away, and as they were doing so they said some things directed to us.

MR WILLS: What things did they say to you?

MR NDLOVU: They were actually insulting us, saying we were stooges, Gadgaís stooges because they could see that we had guns, therefore we must be policemen. And some used to see us standing at that house on the corner, therefore people used to see us, and they knew that we were guarding that house. They then ran away.

On our way from the hostel we met one of them, and on meeting him we recognised him as one of the people who had been in the crowd that had insulted us. And ME Ndlovu just shot him on the leg. I was carrying - or I removed the HMC from ME Ndlovu and I shot him four times on the head, and he died.

MR WILLS: Now is it not so that ...(intervention)

MR NDLOVU: We had suspicions that he could be one of the people who had killed the policeman at Imbali.

MR WILLS: Yes, I just want to get clarity. You say you went to the hostel with these four people, and then you returned. As I understand, your evidence is, at the time you killed this person, Bongane, there were only two of you present, and that was you and ME Ndlovu. The other persons that you were with before had already left your company and had nothing to do with this incident. Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now youíve indicated to the Committee and the members of the community that you were involved in politics and youíve been in some human rights violations. What have you got to say about that now?

MR NDLOVU: Chair, I would like to give thanks for this opportunity. Actually when I grew up I was not the same person that I am today. I was made to be what I am. What is important, the people should realise who was behind all of this.

At that time my life was in danger because if I had defied instruction I might have also been killed. What I request from the community of Mpumalanga and the family members from Ramsomi and Dombela families, I ask God to heal their wounds. It was not my intention to kill them, but I know that it is difficult for them to forgive me. I am doing all this so that when I die, if I die anytime from now, my soul should have peace so that my spirit doesnít wander around when Iím dead, but should find peace.

So those who lost their loved ones because of me, it is very difficult, there is not much I can say about this. I myself did not gain anything from this. My family is facing hardship. I can only request that the community accept me. I know that when I left Mpumalanga the violence had subsided. We were used in all these areas by the leaders, political leaders who couldnít handle the situation in their own areas, they couldnít control the violence in their own areas so they used us.

CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN

MR NDLOVU: Therefore Chair I say to the people of Mpumalanga I was able to move around Mpumalanga because there was peace in this region at that time, but we would be taken from this place and be used in different areas where there was still violence, including Intchanga, Zululand and Ndwedwe. Therefore there were some youths that were actually being taken, I was not the only one who did this. I say to all the people who lost their relatives, I ask for forgiveness. Thank you Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Stewart do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART: I do thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Ndlovu do you know Mpumlani Mshengo?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR STEWART: And did he stay with you at Mrs Tuleís house at the time that you were there?

MR NDLOVU: Yes we did stay with her.

MR STEWART: And was this Mshengo involved at that time in violence?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR STEWART: You yourself have knowledge of that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

MR STEWART: Now on the question of the death of Msomi you explained that you got instructions from someone called Jack, am I right?

MR NDLOVU: I did not say I received instruction from Jack.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said that Jack came to him with a message from Mr Lethal, and conveyed a message, and then he went off with Jack Gomede and that message was later confirmed when he spoke with Mr Lethal, and then they both went off.

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson if youíll just bear with me for a second. You see I just want to try and confirm your - as I understand your evidence you said that initially you received this instruction from or through Jack Gomede, who said it was from Mudla Induna, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: I said Jack came to me and said Mudla Induna required to see us. And when we got there he said there was a task that we were supposed to carry out. That is how I explained it.

MR STEWART: You see Mr Ndlovu, what Mudla Induna will say in the event that it becomes necessary is that although the instruction may have come from him through Jack Gomede - he doesnít remember that, but he didnít see you to discuss it or confirm it until after the incident, and not before. Now thatís his recollection, I donít know - you have the opportunity to comment on that, what your recollection is, whether you have a different recollection or whether youíre not sure. But thatís what he says, and I can repeat it to you if you havenít followed me.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Stewart I havenít followed you. Will Mr Lethal say that Mr Ndlovu was never instructed by him initially to go and kill Mr Msomi, and that he only was advised by Mr Ndlovu after Mr Ndlovu had killed Mr Msomi? Is that Mr Lethalís version?

MR STEWART: No not quite. Mr Lethalís version is that he doesnít have a recollection of giving the instruction through Jack, although itís possible, but according to his recollection he did not give the instruction or confirm the instruction in person with Mr Ndlovu, that the meeting with Mr Ndlovu in person did not take place until after the event.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your comments on that Mr Ndlovu?

MR NDLOVU: Chairperson I do not have a gun. Secondly Jack doesnít own a gun. Therefore where would we have obtained the guns which we used to kill Mr Msomi if he doesnít have knowledge of it.

MR STEWART: Mr Ndlovu this Mpumlani Mshengo that I spoke about earlier, he was involved in this incident am I right?

MR NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

MR STEWART: What exactly was his involvement?

MR NDLOVU: I received the 9mm gun from him. He gave me the gun to go kill this person.

MR STEWART: And Mshengo knew the purpose of giving you the gun?

MR NDLOVU: Yes he did know it very well.

MR STEWART: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart. Mr Ngubane do you have any questions to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairperson. Now Mr Ndlovu you spoke about the incident when you shot at the taxi drivers, do you remember?

MR NDLOVU: Let us not call them taxi drivers because I attacked one taxi on that day.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, well did the taxi have the drivers or just ordinary passengers?

MR NDLOVU: There were passengers at the taxi.

MR NGUBANE: Can you recall more or less in which year this incident took place?

MR NDLOVU: I donít remember clearly, but I think it was around 1990 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ndlovu could you please speak a little louder so the people can hear what youíre saying?.

MR NGUBANE: Iím indebted to you Mr Chairman. And Mr Ndlovu this incident, did it take place at a spot known as the First Bus stop or Taxi Stop in Mpumalanga?

MR NDLOVU: No, thereís a road going or moving across Unit 4. This happened at a spot called Kentucky.

MR Ngubane: Okay. So the shooting that took place at a place where the taxi was shot at the First Bus stop, do you bear any knowledge of that?

MR NDLOVU: If I remember correctly, the people who were involved there were Jack Gomede and his group, although I did not know who they were, but I do remember the incident.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know perhaps who had instructed them to shoot the people at that First Bus stop, or donít you know?

MR NDLOVU: I do not have knowledge thereof.

MR NGUBANE: The incidents that occurred in Mpumalanga that you have mentioned; the killing of Msomi and this shooting of a taxi, are they the only incidents that you were involved in where people were killed here in Mpumalanga?

MR STEWART: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You see we donít know whether somebody was killed in the taxi incident.

MR NGUBANE: I stand corrected. Where there was a shooting where people might have been killed or injured?

MR NDLOVU: I did not attack anywhere else unless there was fighting between the IFP and ANC youths. I will be involved in such incidents but I and my group have not been involved in other incidents.

MR NGUBANE: One of the applicants here if Iím not mistaken, itís either Khumalo or Hlongwane, in the papers says that there were instructions to clean the areas known as Unit 9 and Unit 8 in Mpumalanga. Do you know anything about those instructions to clean those areas?

MR NDLOVU: Chair, as he already explained that there were different groups. We as people who stayed in Woody Glen, Mrs Thlontlo didnít want us to involve ourselves with the youth involved with Mr Nkeshle, so I do have knowledge of what happened in that group.

MR NGUBANE: When actually did you become a policeman in the - in which year did you become a policeman?

MR NDLOVU: At the end of 1988.

MR NGUBANE: Was it before the official opening of the police station here in Mpumalanga?

MR NDLOVU: I do not remember when it was officially opened.

MR NGUBANE: But do you remember the ceremony relating to the official opening of the police station there in Mpumalanga?

MR NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

MR NGUBANE: Where you present here in Mpumalanga when there was an official ceremony to open the police station?

MR NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

MR NGUBANE: And do you know that a lot of havoc happened in Mpumalanga on that particular day where various houses were attacked - by the police in conjunction with Inkatha?

MR NDLOVU: I wouldnít say that it was the police in collaboration with Inkatha because I do not have exact knowledge. The police were in front and the youth just went out and started attacking peopleís houses. I therefore wouldnít specifically say that the police were in front or working with these people who were attacking, but they were in front.

MR NGUBANE: Were you also part of that convoy?

MR NDLOVU: Chair because there was a large number of people it is not possible for them to have attacked - all of them to have attacked those houses, but I think it was a few houses that were attacked. I did not partake in the attack.

MR NGUBANE: Were there any specific instructions from anyone to attack the houses and injure people on that particular day?

MR NDLOVU: I will be telling a lie, I do not know about it.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT: Yes Mr Chairman. These soldiers that you say you were with, about 12 of them, when you fired at people coming out of a school, were they white soldiers?

MR NDLOVU: Chair when you say theyíre from there, you mean that they were there, they were already there? You should actually explain that they were already there, the white soldiers.

MR HEWITT: But they were white?

MR NDLOVU: Yes they were white.

MR HEWITT: And this was in Ndwedwe?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Do you know what unit they belonged to?

MR NDLOVU: I canít quite remember, I think it was 63 if not 32. I canít quite remember, itís somewhere there, I did not take that into consideration.

MR HEWITT: 63 or 32?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Battalion?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Mr Mpshe do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Mr Ndlovu, the shooting of the taxiís, remember when you said you had to shoot at the taxiís because they were seen to be collaborating with the comrades, do you remember that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes I do.

ADV MPSHE: I hear you mention the police, Iím referring to the taxiís that you shot at.

MR NDLOVU: Yes the taxiís not the police.

ADV MPSHE And Iím correct to state that these taxiís were attacked because they were seen to be collaborating with the comrades?

MR NDLOVU: Chair you cannot just say that the reason to be, it would - that if they were not working with them then they would be able to defend those people who are there, so itís obvious that they were working together with them.

ADV MPSHE: This was as result of the assumption that they were working with them, you assumed that?

MR NDLOVU: Chair as Iíve explained, yes they were working together, not that because we were assuming. Those taxiís were no longer actually entering for where we were staying. Therefore there were community cars which were escorted by the police when people are going to and from work, and they would wait for them there by the police station and the community cars would actually take them. The taxiís were not actually coming in here at ...(indistinct). In actual fact they were actually working with the comrades.

ADV MPSHE: Letís move on to the Ndwedwe patrol. Is it correct that when you were patrolling the area you were doing that for the soul purpose of curbing crime, to maintain law and order in that area?

MR NDLOVU: Chair I was not trained to finish violence. What I was trained ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Sorry I missed that, heís speaking away from the speaker I canít hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu the interpreter missed what you said. If you can just speak into the microphone please and just repeat what youíve said so it can be interpreted.

MR NDLOVU: There at Ndwedwe we were posted there to protect IFP people, and now we were told that the comrades are bothering IFP people. Secondly, the police who were working there were no longer residing in their areas because the comrades chased them away, they were staying in the police station. That is the situation that we went there to correct.

ADV MPSHE: Perhaps to sum it up, youíre saying the police force went to that area to protect IFP people in the area. Is that the position?

MR NDLOVU: Yes that is what we were doing.

MS KHAMPEPE: If I may interpose Mr Mpshe, how were you to protect IFP members in that area?

MR NDLOVU: Chair if it happens that theyíre being attacked or maybe they were in a meeting, we should actually accompany them and so on.

MS KHAMPEPE: And that was the protection you were supposed to give them?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: Now the house to which you went, you know, when you were parked somewhere and you could not go down to that house and a van came with reinforcements - the house to which you went, what was happening?.

MR NDLOVU: I did explain Chair that there were people who were on the yard there, and amongst them a shot actually fired, a gun directed to us where the truck 325 was standing. We couldnít actually use the truck to go there to find them quickly so we just forced in that we actually have to use the walkie-talkie to the police station to get a smaller van so that we can quickly go there.

ADV MPSHE: Now the shots that were fired, were they being fired at any IFP person in the neighbourhood or to the police who were up on the mountain?

MR NDLOVU: Chair we were the people who were there on that hill, so it means it was actually directed to us because the bullet crossed our truck.

ADV MPSHE: And not to any IFP member down there, not so?

MR NDLOVU: No there were no IFP people around.

ADV MPSHE: Now letís move down to the school where people were shot as they were running out of the school premises. Are you in a position to can tell this Committee as to the composition of this crowd that ran out, whether there were children and women, and that kind of thing?

MR NDLOVU: I did explain Chair, that it were elderly who were there who had their meeting. I donít remember seeing a child around there.

ADV MPSHE: By elderly people that would include also women?

MR NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

ADV MPSHE: Before you could open up fire on them, did they say anything to you or did anything happen to you - or you just saw them run out and you started shooting?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: Yes to what, you just saw them and you started shooting, or you saw them, they said something, you started shooting - yes to what?

MR NDLOVU: We just shot, they said nothing to us.

ADV MPSHE: The soldiers who had accompanied you, did they also partake in the shooting?

MR NDLOVU: Yes they did.

ADV MPSHE: Will you perhaps know the reason why the soldiers also partook in this?

MR NDLOVU: ...(no English translation)

ADV MPSHE: Soldiers.

MR NDLOVU: The soldiers then asked from us about that area, as I explained that we send the youth there so that they can go there and scare them using the applies as if they are throwing hand grenades, so that they can run away and come to us and ask for help from us. In that sense we were able then to tell them that the people who were doing that were the comrades, so that they can come to us for help and then I should think that they were also paying revenge such that they got injured others ...(indistinct)

ADV MPSHE: If I have to conclude from what you have said, is that the soldiers took part in shooting at the crowd because of your disinformation to them, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: Now letís move to the Bongane Ntombela matter. You were convicted for this offence, not so, charged and found guilty?

MR NDLOVU: Yes indeed.

ADV MPSHE: And in that court you relate what happened on that particular at the killing of Ntombela.

MR NDLOVU: Yes I did.

ADV MPSHE: Was any woman involved in this incident?

MR NDLOVU: Chair I cannot say that this person was involved because we met and she was not by herself, there were two of them, and again Chair, I would like to explain there because you are giving me a chance now. This female, her name was Tobele, and staying there at Unit 2. I greeted her and I asked for her ...(indistinct) and then she stopped and I asked her name and surname, she told me.

And then I as a male, I was then starting to propose and then she said itís difficult for her to talk to me because the comrades are looking at her as sheís talking to me. If she continues talking to me her house will be burnt, her home. The only thing she will give me her telephone number where I wrote it on a box of matches. I canít quite remember what happened to that number because after my arrest it got lost. So thatís how we parted with that girl. I never saw her until I saw her in court in that incident.

ADV MPSHE: Did you not molest this girl? Did you not molest/assault this girl?

MR NDLOVU: No not even touching her by the hand.

ADV MPSHE: Iím asking you this because Iím in possession of the judgment in this case, and the facts, summary of substantial facts are mentioned thereon. Do you remember that?

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson I must object to the this, the summary of substantial fact forms part of the indictment to my recollection, and Mr Mpshe can correct me if Iím wrong, thereís no reference to any violence against the woman in the judgment, but I stand to be corrected.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Mpshe just from personal knowledge and experience, it often happens that the summary of substantial facts differs substantially from the evidence that is ultimately led in a trial. But is there anything in the judgment relating to this, or is it just contained in the summary of substantial ...

ADV MPSHE: It is contained in the summary of substantial facts Mr Chairman, I didnít have time to go deep into the judgment, but I will ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you can ask - you can put the question, but we will, you know, I just let you know that no weight is really attached in this matter to what is contained in the summary of substantial facts that was accompanied the indictment in the court case, especially if we donít know if the evidence was in accordance with such summary.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. The incident of this woman you have mentioned, did it happen before you could come across Bongane Ntombela or after?

MR NDLOVU: Our incident about this girl, it was before we met Bongane Ntombela.

ADV MPSHE: You remember in that case your defence was one of self-defence against Bongane Ntombela, do you remember that? MR NDLOVU: Yes it is like that.

ADV MPSHE: Was it the truth?

MR NDLOVU: Chair in court we were talking about this case I was trying to cover myself in a sense that I did not want to be revealed because I knew that that was the case, so I had to defend myself there with the judge. That was not the truth, it is today that Iím telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN

ADV MPSHE: Today here as you said, you are telling the truth, am I right?

MR NDLOVU: Yes this is the truth that Iím telling.

ADV MPSHE: And your intention today was to tell everything that happened on that day that led to the killing of Ntombela, not so - the full disclosure?

MR NDLOVU: Yes it is like that.

ADV MPSHE: But you will agree with me that the incident of the girl before you met Ntombela was not disclosed viva voce today?

MR NDLOVU: Chair, about this girl I saw on my sight has not been problematic because I didnít do anything to that girl. If my memory serves me well, even in court, she indicated that I didnít do anything. And I asked her when I was trying to propose love to her what her name was, so I didnít see that to be problematic such that I can put it in here, include it.

ADV MPSHE: I see. And you were on the side of the IFP, fighting against anything that was ANC or UDF?

MR NDLOVU: Chair, let us not interpret it that way, not all of us were fighting with everybody, or whether itís a female or a child. Myself, what I used to do, I used to partake with those at my own - I would direct my attack on those that I was fighting with, not to the girls.

ADV MPSHE: I see. Perhaps I took this from what other applicants said. If I remember Hlongwane said: ...(no English translation) - so you were not part of that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes Chair as he has explained that we were different. We youths, we did not actually work with them, we were at Woody Glen.

ADV MPSHE: I see. Mr Chairman can I just be afforded one second, I just want to check something quickly. Iím indebted to you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: Now finally Mr Ndlovu with reference to the Bongane Ntombela killing, you were at all relevant times operating as police when you killed him?

MR NDLOVU: We were not using the police in that incident, not as police.

ADV MPSHE: Didnít you go there by police van?

MR NDLOVU: We walked on foot, we walked.

ADV MPSHE: Now finally, when you shot Ntombela, you said you shot him 4 times with a HMC, how far were you from him when you discharged the 4 shots?

MR NDLOVU: If I remember correctly, he might have been right in front from where Iím sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: And the witness indicates approximately 1 meter away, about the width of the table.

ADV MPSHE: This HMC, if Iím correct, itís a small machine-gun am I right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: And one bullet at that distance would suffice to kill a person?

MR NDLOVU: Let me explain this, he did not die instantly, we heard that he died on his way to the hospital. Therefore I do not agree that one bullet would have killed him.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose that depends on the accuracy of the shooting.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman that will be all thanks..

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR WILLS: Iíve made a fundamental error in the leading of this witness and I request that I can re-open his application insofar as the attempted murder is concerned, just through concentrating on other issues. I didnít raise that issue at all. I donít think that anybody will suffer prejudice as a result of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the attempted murder of - which incident is that?

MR WILLS: Yes thatís the attempted murders in respect of which heís been convicted, and itís just a little related incident to the murder of Bongane Ntombela.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you omitted it and it needs to be covered, then you can do so Mr Wills and Iíll of course give the other parties an opportunity to put questions on that further point.

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Thank you. Mr Ndlovu after - you recall that you were also convicted in respect of attempted murders of certain policemen in the trial relating to the murder of Bongane?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, they were from the Murder and Robbery Unit in Pietermaritzburg.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee just briefly what happened in that regard.

MR NDLOVU: Chair, when I finished or stopped shooting Bongane Ntombela there was a gunshot that went off somewhere in the distance from a combi. When I turned around I heard several directed to me. I changed the magazine and then I returned fire. I then realised that these people must have powerful guns. I was then forced to retreat. When I started running away I felt something on my leg, and I realised that there was blood on my leg, I had been shot. I ran away and to WP Ndlovuís house.

MR WILLS: And it was shortly thereafter that the police arrived and arrested you, and it was then that you realised that these people that youíd been shooting at were in fact the police, is that right?

MR NDLOVU: When the police arrived at Mr Ndlovuís house they requested permission to enter the house because the gates were locked. They then phoned the Murder and Robbery Unit, requested their colonel to phone WP Ndlovu because they wanted to search his house because a certain person had been shooting at them. WP Ndlovu gave them permission to enter the house, and then they got into the house.

They themselves did not know for a fact who had been shooting at them. They laid their on the ground and then they went into the house searching for others. They called us individually to enter the house. They had made us take off our pants so that they could see the person who had been shot at the incident. Thatís when they discovered it was me. They then arrested me as well as Christopher Lethal who in fact was innocent because he had not been at the scene. They wrongly thought that it was ME Ndlovu with whom Iíd been at the scene.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry just on that, were any of the policemen who you shot at injured or killed there, do you know?

MR NDLOVU: No-one was injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

Mr Stewart do you have any cross-examination on this new evidence?

MR STEWART: None Mr Chairperson.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No questions Mr Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: No questions Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: This incident you have just described, are you asking for amnesty on it?

MR NDLOVU: Chair, this happened at one and the same time. It was just a second after I had finished shooting this person, these are not different incidents. Because I thought maybe these were MK members who had been with this boy or who were colleagues of this person.

ADV MPSHE: Alright to be more direct, for shooting at the police ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe if you look at page 407, itís murder and four attempted murders.

How many policemen were there Mr Ndlovu?

MR NDLOVU: I donít remember whether there were 4 or 5.

ADV MPSHE: Chair can guide me, page 407?

CHAIRPERSON: It just says heís applying for murder and four attempted murders. Now he says he canít recall whether there were 4 or 5 policemen. I take it, perhaps Mr Wills can confirm it, that the four attempted murders relate to this evidence weíve just heard.

MR WILLS: Thatís correct yes.

ADV MPSHE: Now these 4 attempted murders, letís go straight on it. Were these policemen when you were firing at them, were they of any opposition to your organisation?

CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN

ADV MPSHE: My question was, were they of your opposition, these policemen?

MR NDLOVU: Chair in actual fact I explained that I did not know whether they were policemen because they were in a private car. I thought that they may be colleagues of the deceased, therefore I cannot say for certain whether they were the political opponents, but I thought that they were colleagues, or part of MK. That is what I thought at the time.

ADV MPSHE: That will be all Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills do have any re-examination, not only out of this new evidence, but out of the cross-examination?

MR WILLS: No re-examination.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Khampepe do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR NDLOVU: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Ndlovu Iím going to confine the first question to the incident in which Mr Bongane Ntombela was killed. You have described the crowd of who you perceived to have been ANC members, as having been a big crowd. How big was that crowd in terms of numbers, can you approximate whether it was approximately 20; 40; a few hundred people who comprised that crowd?

MR NDLOVU: About 15 to 20.

MS KHAMPEPE: You have also stated the reason why you killed Mr Ntombela was because you recognised him as having been amongst those people who had passed some insolent remarks, particularly about you being Gadgaís stooges, am I correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Can you briefly explain to us how you were able to recognise that Mr Ntombela had indeed been amongst the crowd of people who had passed such insolent remarks about your organisation and your leader?

MR NDLOVU: Chair this happened within a short space of time. When we returned, it was at about 2, after we had seen him at around midday. We recognised the clothes that he had been wearing before.

MS KHAMPEPE: What clothes had he been wearing?

MR NDLOVU: I think he had a yellowish jersey on, although I cannot remember what sort of pants he had.

MS KHAMPEPE: Were you able, from a crowd of approximately 15 to 20 people, still able to distinguish a person wearing simply a jersey, and by that kind of clothing only be able to associate that person as being amongst the crowd that had passed insolent remarks to you?

MR NDLOVU: Chair I think there must be something that I missed. When we met him he hesitated for a minute. That is how we indeed confirmed that he must have been there. I donít think I mentioned this before, I must have made a mistake.

MS KHAMPEPE: When you met him for the second time, were you openly carrying your firearms?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Would you not have thought that he probably hesitated because he saw you in possession of firearms?

MR NDLOVU: If you know that you are guilty and you meet the person whom you wronged, you try by all means to get away. So I think he realised that these are the people who he had met before, and he was afraid and tried to flee. If you have a guilty conscience about something youíve done, that is how you behave.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now in your statement which forms part of your application that has just been circulated to us and itís written 416, you state that Bongane Ntombela had been killed because he had killed special constable Nwabe. Do you know this as a fact, that Bongane Ntombela had killed constable Nwabe?

MR NDLOVU: I will explain this, I did not say it for a fact that he did kill him, but we thought he must have been part of the group that killed constable Nwabe at Imbali.

MS KHAMPEPE: Why did you think he was part of the group that killed constable Nwabe? On what grounds did you base your suspicion?

MR NDLOVU: It was a suspicion that we had because when we caught him we assaulted him and we were questioning him.

MS KHAMPEPE: So you only suspected that he might have killed constable Nwabe once you caught him?

MR NDLOVU: Even though it was not him who killed the constable, we must also, we should have done something in retaliation for the act that had been committed against the constable to actually relay a message to them that what they can do, we also can do.

MS KHAMPEPE: So that could have - your retaliation could have been metered out on any person other than Bongane Ntombela?

MR NDLOVU: I would say that he was unfortunate to meet us on that day.

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes. With regard to the incident which involved Mr Kanyele shooting a pregnant woman, do you recall that incident that you have testified to?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: What I want to know is, for what purpose you had gone to the house where the pregnant woman was.

MR NDLOVU: The person that we had been looking for from that house, the person who had been shooting at us had been in that yard and when we went there, we went there to search or to look for this person. But when we got there they refused to open the door, and that is how it came about that or the occupants of the house were shot at.

MS KHAMPEPE: Would I therefore be correct in saying that the original intention of going to that house was not to kill any of the occupants in the house?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Khampepe. Mr Moloi do you have any questions.

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ndlovu from your evidence, especially the cross-examination or the examination rather by Mr Mpshe, I understand that at that trial you faced with regard to the murder of Ntombela, you devised a defence which you raised to protect yourself. Is that right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: And did you testify at the hearing in support of this defence you raised?

MR NDLOVU: Yes I did testify.

MR MOLOI: And your evidence there must have been under oath, was it not?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: An oath to tell the truth and nothing else but the truth, right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: And yet you did not tell the truth at that hearing, am I right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: If your defence was upheld to you, you would have walked out there a free man. Is that correct with regard to ...(intervention)

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: And you also gave evidence here today under oath, is it right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: You say this Committee and the community should believe that you are now telling the truth under oath. Is that right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct Chair.

MR MOLOI: Having told a lie under oath before, why in your mind, should this Committee and the community accept that today you are telling the truth?

MR NDLOVU: I think I did explain Chair, that that was in a court of law, and I had to defend myself. But today I am in-front of this community to apologise for what I did. There is a difference, I was in a court of law denying charges, but today I accept and I admit that I did commit the crime, and that is why Iím asking the community to accept what Iím saying.

MR MOLOI: But the end result, is it not so that the end result remains the same. If your defence at that trial was upheld, you would have walked out a free man. And equally should your application succeed today and be granted amnesty, you would walk out a free person. Is the end result not the same?

MR NDLOVU: I think that the family members of the victims do not know what happened in court. They just learnt that I had killed their child. I think that today they are going to heal and understand that what were the circumstances surrounding the death of their children.

MR MOLOI: And you must be believed in that regard, right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata do you have any questions?

MR MOTATA: Just one Chairperson. Mr Ndlovu I just want to get some clarity on just one issue, and that is when you were trained and shown videos, you remember when you said you were shown videos on a Sunday evening or Sunday evenings, do you recall that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes that is correct.

MR MOTATA: And you say you were shown Inkatha people being burned, you recall that?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR MOTATA: Did you see in which areas within South Africa those people were burnt?

MR NDLOVU: Chair, because I do not know many places I cannot say what those areas where. I donít know whether they were in Johannesburg or the Transvaal. The only area that I knew was Kwa-Zulu.

MR MOTATA: Were it not that you were told these people you see being burned, those are IFP people, but you never recognised any of those people to be IFP people. Would I be correct in so thinking or assuming?

MR NDLOVU: Chair, when the video was shown there were many of us. I donít therefore think that everybody, even those at the back, could hear what this person was saying because they were not clearly mentioning "this is the UDF and such and such an area, doing this and that", but we were just told that this is the UDF and this is what they are doing here in South Africa.

MR MOTATA: You did not recognise any of those people you saw burning as IFP members, you did not, would I be right?

MR NDLOVU: No I did not see their faces but I did see people burning.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson Iíve got no further questions.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

MR DLADLA: I thought my learned friend John was going to re-examine. I would say whatever I want to say after him.

CHAIRPERSON: No I asked for re-examination and you said none - and in fact youíve had your bite at the apple, but you - at the cherry whatever, but I will be giving an opportunity on questions arising out of questions put by the panel, but I just want to ask one or two questions myself first.

Mr Ndlovu from the time that you were trained as a special constable at Koeberg as youíve described, and during the period in which you were involved in these incidents that youíve told us about, did you receive a regular remuneration, an income?

MR NDLOVU: Yes I did receive a salary because I was working.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you receive the salary from?

MR NDLOVU: When I was in Kwa-Zulu there was a colonel Burger who used to come to Kwa-Zulu Natal stations to pay our salaries. There would be two of them, but I remember colonel Burger.

CHAIRPERSON: In what capacity did you receive this salary, in your capacity as a special constable or in your capacity as, or in any other capacity?

MR NDLOVU: I was receiving salary as a special constable.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it coming from the police, the South African Police?

MR NDLOVU: I was in the Kwa-Zulu Police at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Wills do you have any questions arising out of questions put by the panel?

MR WILLS: No questions thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: No thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I wonít forget you this time Mr Ngubane. Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: None.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT: Yes I do Mr Chairman.

Page 407 and 408 of your application for amnesty, I want to read what is written at the bottom of page 407, which is the nature in particular of an offence which you committed, and it reads as follows:

"I was from the Imbali Hostel with other constables. While we were getting out from the township we came across two ANC supporters. One of the officers was wearing the full uniform, so it was clear from these two ANC supporters that we were the Kwa-Zulu Police officers. They drew firearms and shot us. One of them got killed, since we retaliated too."

In an answer to a typed question, namely "state whether any person was injured, killed or suffered any damage" the answer "yes" is given by you.

And then the next question, it says, "If so, (1) ..." and I canít quite read my photostat Mr Chairman, but it appears - I can read out "of the victim", presumably itís the name of the victim. And then the name given is "Bongane Ntombela". Now having regard to what has been filled in on this application for amnesty, the description of the incident where Bongane Ntombela is described as the victim, is that correct as Iíve just read it out, namely that two ANC people realised that they were dealing with Kwa-Zulu Police officers, that these two ANC people started firing at the Kwa-Zulu Police officers, who retaliated, and Bongane Ntombela was killed. Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: I donít remember saying this.

CHAIRPERSON: You see this is part of the application form Mr Ndlovu. Youíve got - I must say Mr Hewitt there that this applicant has two application forms. This one which youíve read out of now which was dated 12 December 1996, signed in the Westville Correctional Services Prison, and then thereís another one which starts on page 413, which is clearly not the same at all.

MR HEWITT: Yes, no I had picked up that there were two applications. Iím just pointing it out.

CHAIRPERSON: So youíve filled two applications Mr Ndlovu? In the one application youíve given the version that was read out by Mr Hewitt. In the other application on this loose sheet that was handed to us, youíve given anther version, which is closer to the version which youíve given now in this hearing. So if you can answer Mr - you say you canít remember filling in two forms?

MR NDLOVU: Let me explain Chair, if I remember correctly the people at Westville did not want us to involve ourselves in the TRC process. Somebody came with an IFP lawyer, Nicky Britz, as well as captain Shlengwa, who was the head of the BSI, but was not working at the IFP office. They did not want us to involve ourselves with the TRC process because they said it was part of those people who were being used by the ANC to undermine their integrity. Therefore I realised that it will be difficult for me not to reveal what actually happened, just like the involvement of MZ Khumalo in incidents at Imbali, therefore it should be taken into consideration that they were afraid that I would actually undermine him.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that you purposely told the wrong - your purposefully gave the wrong version in this first application, because of those reasons?

MR NDLOVU: While I was told what I should write, and I realised that this could eventually become problematic to me if Iím supposed to protect other people who at this stage are not supporting me, because these people are not helping me in any way.

MR HEWITT: If I could try and be of assistance here, and also in fairness to the applicant, I simply put this version to him because it didnít square at all with what was given to - the version that has been given here. But I canít take this matter any further. It seems to me that Mr Mpshe can take the matter a lot further because I notice that on page 412 of this affidavit, it seems to have been attested by the applicant on the 12th of December 1996. And on the page which I have, 417, I see that thereís a Correctional Services ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Itís 8 months later or 4 months later.

MR HEWITT: Dated the 8th of April 1997. Now I donít know, I donítí have any documents relating to this applicantís trial, Mr Mpshe has that, and I donít know when this applicantís actually trial - his trial actually took place, if in fact it took place, after this statement was made on the 12th of December 1996. On the face of it the version which I read out seems to be a self-defence situation, and I have heard for the first time from Mr Mpshe today that the false defence which was put up by this applicant in his trial was one of self-defence, which was rejected.

So the time that he made this affidavit in relation to his giving of a false alibi or defence - Iím not sure what his defence was, but it seems to me Mr Mpshe can throw more light on this aspect. There is obviously a clear contradiction between the two versions, but at what point it occurred is obviously of crucial importance now.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Hewitt, I understand what you say. Mr Mpshe do you have any ...[intervention]

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chair, if the Chair allows me to have a second bit?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Mr Ndlovu you will recall my last question to you was under the killing of Bongane Ntombela, I said to you, at all relevant times you were operating as the police. Do you recall that question?

MR NDLOVU: Yes I do remember.

ADV MPSHE: Right. And your answer was "no", do you remember that?

MR NDLOVU: You spoke about a van and I said to you that we were on foot. That is what I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said you didnít have a police firearm, and I think the thrust of the answer was that you were not operating as a policeman at the time.

ADV MPSHE: Did you hear what the Chair said?

MR NDLOVU: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: When you answered Mr Mpsheís question as to whether or not you were acting at all times in your capacity as a policeman, you answered that you didnít have a police firearm, you had a different firearm; and you didnít use a police van, and you came on foot, thereby giving the impression that you didnít act in your capacity as a special constable, is that so? Itís for you to tell us.

MR NDLOVU: That is correct Chair.

ADV MPSHE: Now the application that you filled, you signed on the 12th of December Ď96, this was after you were convicted for the killing of Ntombela?

MR NDLOVU: And then ...(intervention)

ADV MPSHE: Iím saying, the application dated 12 December Ď96 signed by yourself - on page 412 Mr Chairman and members of the Committee - 412, this application was filled in by yourself after you were convicted for the killing of Bongane Ntombela.

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: And when you filled in this application as you had indicated to me when I asked you a question about full disclosure, you wanted here to tell the truth because you told the court not the truth, am I right?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: And whatever is in this application will be the truth?

MR NDLOVU: Chair I explained that firstly, this is not my handwriting, I was actually guided on how to write this application so as to protect the other people that I mentioned before.

ADV MPSHE: I see, who guided you?

MR NDLOVU: There was captain Nshlengo who had come with an IFP lawyer, a Mr De Klerk.

ADV MPSHE: But despite that, your feeling was to tell the Truth Commission the truth?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: Now letís look at page 409 - 409 paginated Mr Chairman and Members. I will read for your convenience, that is under "B", the justification for regarding the acts as political. You say:

"As they the KZP I was justified to act in defence of myself, the reason being that that place Imbali Township is a ANC base. Some of the K.P. officers who had been killed and were still under surveillance and threatened by the ANC military wing"

Do you see that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes I see it.

ADV MPSHE: Do you realise that what you have said in this application, the paragraph Iíve just quoted, tallies very well in as far as defence is concerned with what youíve said in court.

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

ADV MPSHE: So if you told this Committee that what you said in court was untrue in as far as the self-defence is concerned, it would mean that even what you say here before this Commission, itís also untrue. Am I right?

MR NDLOVU: ...(no audible answer)

MR MOLOI: Mr Mpshe donít we have a clarification before the applies, he has just told us that in clarification when the Chair was asking from a question that emanated from Mr Hewitt, that the IFP had no faith in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, they merely saw it as an extension. And then they came with captain Shlengwa and this De Klerk which Iím not sure whether itís the same De Klerk who signed as a Commissioner of Oaths as well, that this application was not filled in by himself, it was written out for him, and he had no way because he had these IFP people there. I suppose if we could go along those lines we could get better clarification.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you. Letís go back to what has been said. What is written in here - or let me say, the person who wrote here, wrote what he was told by yourself, is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: I explained Chair, that they said I should put it in a way that was slightly better than what I said in court, but along the same vein. So these are similar because they were trying to protect these people I mentioned before, the people that Iíve mentioned the other statement.

ADV MPSHE: Ja, letís not confuse ourselves, the person who was writing wrote what you told him to write, am I correct?

MR WILLS: Sorry with respect Mr Chairperson, he has to my mind answered the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Heís said that he - I think itís clear from the question that he told what too write, but was told to say something in similar vein to the defence, thatís what I gathered.

ADV MPSHE: I will leave it at that Mr Chairman. But ...(intervention)

MS KHAMPEPE: Before you leave it Mr Mpshe, I think heís made it quite clear that he was told what to say in his application. What I want to establish is, whose handwriting is reflected in this application, is it your handwriting or is it Mr De Klerkís handwriting?

MR NDLOVU: I think we met in a hall, I think it was one of the IFP members who is rather educated as well Mr De Klerk and captain Shlengwa. I do not remember exactly who it was, they were in a hurry and they wanted this to be mailed urgently to Cape Town, so I cannot remember what was happening exactly at the hall.

MS KHAMPEPE: And Mr De Klerk, was he the one who was advising that person who was writing what to write in your application form?

MR NDLOVU: Mr De Klerk made an example about me that it will be difficult for us to implicate leaders because we have light sentences - 15 to 20 years. He showed us a membership card, heís also an IFP member who was willing to help us, but he didnít want us to put Inkatha in a bad light. Therefore I think heís one of the people who played a role in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: And just - sorry Ms - how did it come about that you completed the other application form then, the one that was signed on the 26th of September 1997, if you look at page 418?

MR NDLOVU: Because I realised that I was running out of time and I had not sent a true reflection of events, I asked a certain person from Dassenhoek to get me a TRC investigatorís phone numbers. This he did and captain Mbata came to see me, together with Mr Mudlala, to whom I related the entire story.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ndlovu you were present in court at your trial when witnesses were testifying.

CHAIRPERSON: We can assume that, I donít think we need to get the answer.

ADV MPSHE: Chairman I was trying to avoid it being said that "how do you know that he was not rude in court and evidence was given in his absence", the criminal procedure act makes room for that Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I know but I think we can assume - he said he was there.

ADV MPSHE: Do you remember a certain Mr Dladla testifying?

MR NDLOVU: Yes I remember him.

ADV MPSHE: Do you remember what Mr Dladla testified - when Mr Dladla testified, he testified about the two girls and Ntombela being killed when he came to rescue the two girls you were assaulting?

MR NDLOVU: I donít remember him putting it that way. What he said was that he had peeped out of a toilet window when he saw us meeting these girls. He said I had a shotgun and my colleague had an HMC. He was not able to specify the guns but he was just describing them. He said we molested these girls, but in actual fact I did not molest anyone because if I remember correctly, ME Ndlovu started playing with a child that this girl was carrying. And then we left these girls, and thereafter met Bongane.

These girls had already disappeared by that time. The girls even mentioned when testified that they had heard gunshot from far away, and when they turned they saw that this boy had been shot. I think that was her testimony. But what this person said was not the truth because he peeped out of a window, and that window was very small, he couldnít have seen.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson I ...(intervention)

MS KHAMPEPE: Before you can proceed Mr - if I can be granted this indulgence, Mr Mpshe if you question Mr Ndlovu on the evidence given by Mr Dladla, please bear in mind the fact the judge in the trial a quo stated that Mr Dladlaís capacity for accurate observation as to what happened had to be taken with a greater circumspection. So you really have to be fair to Mr Ndlovu by having that in mind.

MR WILLS: Yes, and further if I may just add Ms Committee Member, thank you for that - on page 12 of the judgment the judge makes the finding that Mr Dladlaís evidence must be viewed with considerable reserve.

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

ADV MPSHE: I donít want to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Stewart, Mr Mpshe what are you trying to establish here, that Mr Ndlovu molested those girls?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman I was going to state the purpose of my quoting this before the Committee Member and my learned friend jutted in. I was going to state that the purpose is not to question him on Mr Dladlaís evidence, but to make good that which I would have - I could have - the impression I created about such things - summary of substantial facts. I was just quoting this to indicate that the very summary of substantial facts are substantiated in the evidence, but I do not cross-examine him on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but he was acquitted on that charge - was there not a charge - what was he acquitted on here?

MR WILLS: Sorry, he wasnít charged with that in the trial. There was no charge, he was charged with ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No charge, yes.

ADV MPSHE: So I was just trying to put the record straight, that the summary of facts has been substantiated in the evidence, it is not cross-examination on him on what was said by Mr Dladla, and that is all.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

MR STEWART: Sorry, if I could just make a final comment on that issue, the summary of substantial facts was not confirmed in the evidence, rather the reverse happened, and the judge made no findings in regard to that aspect of the indictment.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hewitt, just on the point that you raised about the - when the case was finalised, I note that the judgment in this matter was delivered on the 1st of October 1993. So I think at the time in 1996, you know, the trial was - had been completed for some years.

MR HEWITT: Yes I have now seen that for the first time as well.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu I have understood the reason advanced by you for having submitted the application dated the 12th of December to have been to protect the IFP at the advice of captain Shlengwa and the legal representatives, and I have understood you to be saying that the IFP was not encouraging you to apply for amnesty since it had no confidence in the process of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. If that is so, why was it necessary for them to even come to you to request you to apply for amnesty?

MR NDLOVU: Who are you referring to?

MS KHAMPEPE: Iím referring to captain Shlengwa and the legal representative who was accompanying him, that youíve referred to as Mr De Klerk.

MR NDLOVU: I explained that they said that whoever wants to volunteer, but knowing very well that they are not going to implicate the IFP, may submit an application, but they will not be able to represent anybody who implicated the IFP. Therefore those who submitted applications at that time, we did as they had directed us.

MS KHAMPEPE: My concern is your evidence that they have no confidence in the process, yet they went out of their way to come to you to give you application forms and request you to complete those application forms for purposes of being part of the process that they had no confidence in.

MR NDLOVU: We also troubled them, we would phone Ulundi - I even wrote a letter to Dr M G Buthelezi asking him what he was doing about us, the people who had been fighting for Inkatha, and he said I should speak to captain Shlengwa and Nicky Brits - people who frequented the prison. I told him that these people had never given us anything concrete because we were now in jail, our families were in hardships, but they were not helping us. Therefore Dr Buthelezi directed us to these people, these people who were not helping us in any way.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Yes very briefly Mr Chairperson, just on that matter arising. Your evidence is to the effect that Mr De Klerk, captain Shlengwa and a person by the name of Nicky Brits attended at the prison and assisted you in the first amnesty application that you submitted. Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes I think that is what I was explaining.

MR WILLS: And that your distinct impression was that you were prevented from putting the correct version of what occurred and what you wanted to say to the Amnesty Committee because they wanted to protect the interests of the IFP and the senior members of the IFP, and thatís ...(intervention)

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that is why this first application arose? MR NDLOVU: That is correct Chair.

MR WILLS: You then contacted the Truth Commission because you wanted to tell the truth and they organised Legal Aid, and as a result of that I was eventually allocated to do the application. Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that the contents in your final application, the one where I was involved with submitting, is to the best of your recollections, the truth in this matter?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct Chair.

MR WILLS: Just for the record Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, I have a letter which is obviously in response to the letter that was referred to by Mr Ndlovu earlier, which I would like to read into the record. Itís on an Inkatha letterhead, it appears to be signed by the president of the IFP, and Iíd like to read this into the record. Itís dated the 20th of October 1997, it is an original letter for anybody to inspect. Itís sent to Mr Bertwell B Ndlovu, his prison number 93462925, Durban Correctional Services, Medium B C101, Private Bag X01 Westville:

"Dear Mr Ndlovu I wish to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 24th of June 1997. Thanks for your appreciation of the visit of Dr Giyane. Iím also hoping that others that we sent to see you regularly, such as Captain Shlengwa and Ms Brits do see you concerning problems about special constables and other problems. I do hope that you can discuss those things with the people that we send to the prison regularly. You cannot expect me to comment on such things with you in an open mail of this kind. Yours sincerely", and itís signed by the president of the IFP.

Thank you, thatíll be all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Sorry that can go in as an exhibit if itís required.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if a photocopy could be made of it and given to Mr Mpshe please. Are you going to be leading, Mr Stewart and Mr Wills, any further evidence in respect of the applicants that we have heard so far?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, Mr Ngubane had indicated to me his intention of making an application to re-open the cross-examination of Mr Lethuli on behalf of the victims who did not have notice that Mr Lethuli would be giving evidence on incidents in this area in Durban earlier in the year, and that application is not objected to by myself on behalf Mr Lethuli.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, any further witnesses you intend calling?

MR WILLS: I donít intend calling further witnesses at this session. Obviously at the Ermelo session.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Ngubane, I think - well weíve long passed 4 oíclock now, it will be a convenient time to postpone. Is there any other objection - or any objection at all to Mr Lethuli being called tomorrow morning for purposes of re-opening his cross-examination that has been brought by Mr Ngubane?

MR STEWART: I have no objection.

MR NGUBANE: I have no objection Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, then weíll begin tomorrow morningís session then with the further cross-examination of Mr Lethuli. We will now adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning, in this hall at half past nine.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS