inquest and why their evidence in the inquest differed from what they're saying now and so on. That's been carrying on on a substantial scale up to now.

JUDGE NGCOBO: ...(inaudible) that these witnesses may have given evidence at the inquest, and also to the extent that that court may have made certain findings often concerning their evidence and then as witnesses, what are we to do about that?

CHAIRPERSON: We're not concerned with the findings of the inquest court, but by consent, their evidence as it stands may form part of the record. I think that's the suggestion that is being made.

MR TIPP: That is correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGCOBO: But what about the findings of the inquest court, are we - in regard to that?

MR TIPP: No, without regard to the findings that that is simply embodied as part of the record of these proceedings, upon which we will then mount argument Mr Chairman.

MR DORFLING: But Mr Chair, I've got a difficulty with that proposition, it means we accept evidence without it being placed in the perspective of the totality of the evidence at the inquest court. There's been a ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, hold on.

JUDGE NGCOBO: How are we to evaluate that evidence?

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman I appreciate that, it's really my learned friend's list that we're talking about, if he's not happy to do on the basis that the record is placed before the Committee. If the Committee in turn is not happy to look at untested evidence, then we would with respect suggest that they be called as witnesses. We understand ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee does not know what evidence these people are going to give ...

MR TIPP: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, and for us to say we will call them at this stage might not be a particularly judicious decision, without know what it is all about.

MR BIZOS: May I come in here Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BIZOS: It is - counsel for the Committee, Mr Chairman, can call the witnesses. We will confine ourselves once they have taken the oath, to ask and to confirm certain evidence that they gave at the inquest. If that is not accepted, our learned friends will have an opportunity to cross-examine them, but there admissions in that evidence which we consider vital to the just decision of this case, and relying on our learned friends that they would call these witnesses, we came here to hear them and we would not like to loose the value of those concessions that they made at the inquest Mr Chairman, and we would urge that counsel for the Committee can call them, should they not ask them anything more that identify themselves, and give us an opportunity to ask a few questions of each one of them Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll take a short adjournment to consider this matter.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant van Reenen, is he here?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been subpoenaed to come and give evidence in this matter, will you just come forward please.

We've considered the request on whether questions should be put to you or not, and to Sergeant Gollach and Van Greunen. The Committee has decided that since you've been subpoenaed to attend, and that you are here, that the applicants be afforded to put such questions to you as they wish so that we may have a full picture of what happened. Do you understand?

MR VAN REENEN: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Now put such questions as are relevant to the purposes of this inquiry.

MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Inspector van Reenen, we spent many hours in the inquest court, we are not going to spend that long here today. I just want to remind you of a few aspects of the evidence that you gave in the course of the inquest and to ask you to confirm whether it is correct.

MR VAN REENEN: Fine.

MR TIPP: Now first of all, you will remember that after you were assigned to go to Shell House and you got there at about 10h30, a little after that you heard some shots in the vicinity from somewhere down Plein Street in a westerly direction, do you recall that?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And an ANC guard in fact came up to you where the Police were and asked you please to intervene and go and deal with it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's is correct, he asked me to accompany him.

MR TIPP: And it was clear to you and the other Policemen that the ANC in fact wanted the Police to take charge of the situation there and to ensure security?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, on that day they asked us to go with.

MR TIPP: Do you agree with what I'm putting to you, that they wanted the Police to ensure security of the lives and property there at Shell House?

MR VAN REENEN: He came to us and told us that there was a shooting taking place, he asked us to go with, and we did.

MR TIPP: I'd like you just please to ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Mr Tip ...

MR TIPP: Yes?

MR LAX: Sergeant, you can put on some earphones and have the Afrikaans translation in your ears, clearly ...(intervention)

MR VAN REENEN: That won't be necessary thank you.

MR LAX: You okay with that?

MR VAN REENEN: Mm.

MR TIPP: Inspector just deal with the question crisply please that I'm putting to you, was it clear to you that that man from the ANC wanted the Police to deal with it and to look after the security of the situation there?

MR VAN REENEN: He came to me and asked for my assistance, and I accompanied him.

MR TIPP: Now a little after that you went off to investigate, Inspector you've heard - well let me come directly to the point, very shortly after that, you saw the - a large group of marchers of about 500-strong moving south down King George Street. At that stage they were between Noord Street and De Villiers Street?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: You and Sergeant van Greunen ran towards them to try to divert them?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And do you agree with me that at that stage events were happening very fast and in an atmosphere of very high tension?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: You knew that Shell House was the national headquarters of the ANC?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes I knew.

MR TIPP: You knew that the march that day was part of the IFP campaign against the election?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you knew on that day of the long-standing history of conflict between the ANC and the IFP?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And when you saw this large group of armed marchers approaching, the possibility of a violent confrontation between them and the ANC personnel was clear to your mind?

MR VAN REENEN: As you've seen in my affidavit, moments before the group there was already a shooting incident which had taken place on the corners of King George and Plein Streets. I thought that there would be a confrontation between the two approaching groups, and that is why I went to the two groups to deter this kind of conflict.

MR TIPP: And Inspector, you'll recall I think during the course of the inquest proceedings that you were shown certain photographic material, and from your own observations at the time, you will remember that the portion of King George Street between De Villiers Street and Plein Street was one that had a number of concrete barricades across it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: On the Plein Street side those concrete barricades ran right across King George Street?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And on the De Villiers Street side a couple had been moved aside to allow a car in and out?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: But for the rest it was also barricaded, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: And also of course we know that King George Street as one moves south, it doesn't proceed, it runs directly into buildings?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, in Small Street.

MR TIPP: You as at 1994, you were a Policeman with 8 years experience and had some experience with crowd control and crowd movements?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: And I think you'll agree with me that of all the streets in the vicinity there, that block of King George Street between De Villiers Street and Plein Street, was the most unsuitable for the movement of a large number of marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes I would say so.

MR TIPP: Well De Villiers Street was wider and open.

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: Wanderers Street was wider, Klein Street was wider, yes?

MR VAN REENEN: That's right.

MR TIPP: And open, yes?

NO AUDIBLE ANSWER

MR TIPP: If you nod, we won't ...(intervention)

MR VAN REENEN: Yes that's correct, I agree.

MR TIPP: Now Inspector, we've been busy with the application here for - over some days, I want with your assistance, objectively to try to convey to the Committee what the state of mind was of yourself at that time, and through that to try to convey in slightly more detail as to the atmosphere at that time, are you with me?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes I understand you.

MR TIPP: Good.

MR VAN REENEN: Now your state of mind as you ran up King George Street in the direction of the marchers, you realised, you saw, and your evidence was that the sight of that large on-coming group of armed people was a sight to induce fear, particularly for anybody who might consider it his duty to try to stop them.

MR VAN REENEN: I wouldn't put it in that light, the group came down King George Street, they were toyi-toying. As I've already said, I had managed a number of marchers before, and I wouldn't say that I was afraid of them, that's why I approach them, in order to deter them, because in previous marches one would usually go to the Induna, they would usually listen to you and they would do what you asked them to do.

MR TIPP: Well that's what would normally happen with a crowd control, the position on this day in fact was different, there was no Induna that you could see, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: I moved to the group, I didn't see any other group as such, I moved to that group.

MR TIPP: Just deal with the question, you didn't see any Induna to whom you could have - whom you could approach?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't.

MR TIPP: And also there were no Policemen moving with the group?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: Now Inspector van Reenen, I want to remind you of your evidence, we can go through the record if necessary, but at the stage that you were at the front of the group, you then feared for your own safety, is that correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's, when they had already crossed De Villiers Street and they didn't want to concede to my appeal to move down De Villiers Street, I moved right in an eastern direction and I was bumped out of the way, myself and Sergeant van Greunen, by the crowd.

MR TIPP: You used in the inquest frequently the phrase "hulle het jou uit die pad uit gestamp", correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And now at that stage it was clear that this was a different kind of march from ones that you dealt with previously, two uniformed Policemen openly carrying weapons had gone to them, with arms outstretched, calling on them to turn away and clearly indicating that should turn away, and they ignored you, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Now at that stage, let's look at your state of mind, at that stage did you fear for your own safety?

MR VAN REENEN: I knew firstly that I was on the corners of King George and Plein Streets where shooting had already taken place moments before. It was an ANC building, here was an IFP march approaching the building, there would possibly be further confrontation and I was caught between the two parties, and I moved right.

MR TIPP: Well let me just read to you a few lines from you evidence at the inquest. Mr Chairman I begin at 2094, at line 24. I asked you the following question, I said:

"I'm not discussing possibilities with you, I want you to tell us what your state of mind was at that instant...", we're talking now about the stage that they were clearly going to ignore you, "and let me ...", the question goes on, "... let me ask you again and you can answer, did you fear for your safety - or let me stop there, did you fear for your safety?" --- and your answer "Ja, toe hulle oor die straat beweeg en ek gesien het ek kan die mense nie keer nie, toe gaan ek na die kant toe"

then over the page, Mr Chairman, 2095, the Court understood it, the Court said:

"Dan is die antwoord ja.", --- and you said "Ja, in daardie opsig, ek moes wegkom voor die groep want anders sou die groep my ook moontlik beseer het. Indien wel, toe beweeg ek weg voor die groep."

MR VAN REENEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And then the Court went on in the next line, said:

"So die antwoord is ja ...", did you fear for your own safety, "...die antwoord is ja, is dit so? --- Van die groep se kant af, ja. Hulle wou nie afgedraai het nie en ek wou nie voor hulle bly nie."

So from the on-coming group's side you feared for your own safety at that stage?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, that's exactly what I've said, after they had already crossed the street and they didn't want to concede ...(intervention)

MR TIPP: That's the stage I'm now talking about, how things developed there when they clearly ignored the Police instructions to turn away. And on that same page, the very next lines Mr Chairman, just for the record, at lines 11 to 13 on page 2095, I then asked you:

"Did you think then Inspector, that if you try to stand your ground, that you would be overrun and physically harmed by this oncoming group?" --- And your answer was simply "Ja."

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And at page 2096, Mr Chairman, lines 18 to 20, in that context I specifically asked you, the previous question was the sight of this group proceeding onwards despite the efforts of the Police to divert them, that was the context, and then I asked you specifically at line 18"

"For anyone in their path, was it not a sight to induce fear?" --- And your answer: "Ja, die persoon wat hulle wil keer, natuurlik vir daardie persoon."

Correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And you'll remember, just to put it in the perspective of the perceptions of the ANC people who were on duty to protect the building and the lives of those in it, I asked you whether you could point to any facts that would suggest that their perception that what was happening was an attack, and you said you could point to no facts to suggest that that perception would be wrong, do you remember that?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: You confirm it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's right.

MR TIPP: Now Inspector, one of the important elements playing a role in that situation, from the point of anybody like yourself who was involved in it, was a question of time, and again I'm not going to waste time, it's not intended to be a pun, I just want to get directly to the point. You'll remember at one stage I asked you "did it ever occur to you to use teargas to try to keep them away", and your answer was in the context of your were already close to the group and it was no longer possible to do that. Do you remember that bit of evidence?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you were asked at page - at 2098 some questions by the Court, the previous question beginning at line 19 Mr Chairman:

"Hoekom het u nie omgedraai en in King George Straat terugbeweeg en aanhou om die groep te probeer keer?"

In other words why didn't you just continue your efforts to stop them and move all the way down King George?

You answer: "As ek dit so moet vat, indien daar gevuur sou gewees het sou ek in die middel gewees het voor die groep en voor die mense wat op die hoeke staan van King George en Pleinstraat."

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: So you're saying, from your point of view at that stage, you were now between two possible perils, the oncoming group which might harm you, and the ANC who might harm you if in fact they opened fire?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: And the Court then went on in the next question:

"Is dit nou wat u gedink het op daardie stadium, as ek nou voor hierdie groep aangaan, miskien gaan ek geskiet word?" --- and your answer was, I'm going to read it: "Alles gebeur so vinnig op daardie stadium, daar gaan so baie deur 'n mens, jy moet altyd alles voorsien, jy het 'n paar sekondes om te dink wat moet jy doen, waarnatoe moet jy gaan, wat moet jy presies doen in daardie spesifieke tyd."

Correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And does that still in your mind correctly reflect the pressure that was on you at that time?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: When - I think when you speak here about a few seconds, "'n paar sekondes", you literally meant that, it was just a few seconds.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And extrapolating Inspector, the ANC personnel would have been in substantially the same situation as you, they would also have had literally at that stage as that group kept coming past - ignoring you, kept coming on into King George Street, they also had literally a few seconds in which to assess the situation and to react.

MR VAN REENEN: They had more time than I did because they were further away from the group than I was.

MR TIPP: It's a very short block that, isn't it?

MR VAN REENEN: Approximately 50 - 60 paces.

MR TIPP: And they were already into King George Street?

MR VAN REENEN: They were with me approximately 10 to 15 paces into it.

MR TIPP: Roughly speaking, another 40 metres?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And if they moved fast, it would literally be a matter of seconds before they were on top of the ANC?

MR VAN REENEN: But they had more time that I did at that stage.

MR TIPP: We're not talking about whether you only had 3 seconds and they might have had 7 or 8 seconds, I'm just putting to you that literally they also only had a few seconds in which to assess and deal with the situation.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: I want to also very briefly Mr Chairman, to underline the sense of urgency, the sense of pressure, and the sense of peril that attended that situation, with a few references to one or two aspects of the evidence. You follow what I'm doing?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: Now it's common cause Inspector - well let me put the context of it first, my apologies Mr Chairman. Your evidence was emphatic at the inquest, you saw a group coming down King George Street and you say there was not a group at all in De Villiers Street.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Now I'm putting to you that it's common cause that there was in fact a very large group, numbering in the region of 500, which at the same time as the one came down King George, moving south, had come along De Villiers Street moving east to the very same intersection.

MR VAN REENEN: That is not so. We wouldn't have pointed the group into the direction of De Villiers Street, because there was another group coming up and they would have collided. There was no group coming up De Villiers Street.

MR TIPP: That's your recollection of it Inspector, but I'm just putting to you that it's common cause that there was this group, and the fact that you didn't see it and believed that you could in fact direct a large group in that direction, illustrates again how difficult it was for anybody to form a clear sense of what was happening, even on so large a scale. Would you accept that?

MR VAN REENEN: No I would not agree because I looked down De Villiers Street, and there was no group approaching. At that stage no incident had occurred on those corners. The group was still moving forward, I went to them, De Villiers Street was open, and I did not show them down De Villiers Street.

MR TIPP: By the same token, and along the same vein, it's common cause that in that very intersection, literally in the moments before the shooting began, there was Mr von Eggedy, the one you've heard so much about and you've heard references again to him today while you were listening to the evidence. And I believe Inspector, that you've seem perhaps a video of him or at least photographs of him.

MR VAN REENEN: I don't know.

MR TIPP: You haven't?

MR VAN REENEN: No I haven't.

MR TIPP: Well it's common cause that in the intersection immediately before the shooting there was this tall gentleman with strikingly long hair circling the intersection and calling on the marchers to stop. Now you didn't see him?

MR VAN REENEN: Chairperson, if you could just precisely indicate to me where this person was in the intersection, was he already in King George Street after the intersection, or was he himself in the intersection where I was, because if they say that he was in the intersection, then I don't agree with that because no other person was with me in the intersection, it was only me and Sergeant van Green in the intersection. If it's possibly after the intersection in King George Street, it could be, but that had to be after the intersection.

MR TIPP: Well Inspector, I'm going to do the next best thing to showing you a video of what happened, because the only pictorial depiction that we have is one prepared by Mr von Eggedy himself, entirely independently, Mr Chairman in Bundle B at page 112. Mr Chairman I think it's not necessary for the Committee to turn it up, but it's the sketch portion of Mr von Eggedy's very first statement. You will see there Inspector where Mr von Eggedy puts himself, in the intersection, circling in it.

MR VAN REENEN: I don't agree with this evidence. I don't agree, he was not in the middle where he says that he was, because I moved from the northern side into King George Street, I re-iterated back down the street in an eastern direction and there no person behind or in front of me while I was deterring the marchers into De Villiers Street. He could not have been there at any point as he alleges, according to me.

MR TIPP: Well let me then put to you for your comment, the evidence of your colleague, Sergeant van Greunen. You're doubtless aware that Sergeant van Greunen testified at the inquest that what he saw was a group of about 500, coming from De Villiers Street and turning into that part of King George Street next to Shell House. And to put it in slightly more detail, Sergeant van Greunen says that when you and he ran up to stop the crowd, they had already turned into King George Street, in other words they were already through the intersection. Now that was your colleague Sergeant van Greunen who ran right up next to you.

MR VAN REENEN: That's not correct, that is not what happened on that day. As I've already said, there was one group moving down King George Street in a southern direction, that is the only group which I observed.

MR TIPP: Immediately after the events you went off to find Sergeant van Greunen, he'd run off?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: I take it that he would have reported to you then that he'd been injured by one of the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: With a sharp instrument like a spear or an assegai?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: That was in the course of the efforts by you and he to divert or stop the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Inspector, just one or two concluding aspects I hope, at the inquest at one point you gave evidence that you were not able to give a definite "yes" or a definite "no" as to whether or not there was a reason for the ANC guards to have opened fire, do you remember that?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And that's ...(indistinct)

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: ...(inaudible) as to where the first shots came from?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: So I think you will be able to confirm that once the crowd had pushed its way past you at whatever speed, it entered into that part of King George Street next to Shell House and again within a few seconds shooting broke out?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: That the shooting was of a short duration?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: We've heard estimates in the region of 10/12 seconds, would that correspond with your assessment?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that would be approximately correct.

MR TIPP: And whilst the shooting was still going on, marchers were, had turned and were trying to get away, did you see that?

MR VAN REENEN: After the shooting had taken place the marchers moved down De Villiers Street in a western direction, and some of the marchers moved back to the corners.

MR TIPP: Inspector you're not answering the question that I put to you, I just want to know whether you were in fact in a position to observe this, that whilst the shooting was still proceeding, marchers were running back, trying to get away.

MR VAN REENEN: I didn't see that.

MR TIPP: You didn't notice that. Inspector, whilst there was shooting, on your version you were still in De Villiers Street, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: After the shooting?

MR TIPP: No, sorry, whilst the shooting was still continuing.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, I was in De Villiers Street towards the east.

MR TIPP: Did you see or notice at all that there was firing from the side of the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't notice anything.

MR TIPP: Could you from what you heard, were you able to tell whether or not such shots were fired?

MR VAN REENEN: No I couldn't say.

MR TIPP: You couldn't say. Just for - I'll leave it at that Mr Chairman. Again in the spirit that this is not a trial, I'm not going to begin to put versions in respect of matters. Thank you for the opportunity.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr van Reenen I would want your indulgence because I want to form a picture in my mind as to how the group was armed, and you of all the witnesses we've heard were very much close to this group. Would you just take a second of your time to describe to us the kinds of weapons that you saw amongst the group of marchers, because you were very close to them?

MR VAN REENEN: All that I saw was knobkierries, assegais, shields, sticks, that's all that I noticed among the group as such which was before me.

MS KHAMPEPE: Are you able to say whether there were any firearms amongst the group?

MR VAN REENEN: I saw no firearms.

MS KHAMPEPE: And when you say the group was toyi-toying, are you referring to a chant when you say they were toyi-toying as you approached them?

MR VAN REENEN: They didn't storm, they moved forward slowly as they usually would. They'd moved forward and backward, forward and backward, that is how the movement took place. They didn't storm at all, not at that stage.

MS KHAMPEPE: Were you able to identify any person who would have appeared to you to have been leading the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't see anybody at that stage.

MS KHAMPEPE: Are you able to say whether the group was marching in a very organized manner?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, they appeared as such. When they moved down King George Street from north to south, they appeared like that, they appeared to be very ordered.

MS KHAMPEPE: And would you say the order disappeared immediately after you were bumped out by them?

MR VAN REENEN: Well then I couldn't see what they were doing any longer at stage because I had given way and they had moved ahead. I couldn't tell you whether or not they were still toyi-toying or whether they stormed, I simply got out of the way in front of them. After they had crossed the intersection it is very difficult for me to say exactly how they had proceeded, because I had been pushed out of the way and I was already in De Villiers Street at that stage.

MS KHAMPEPE: You were so induced by fear after that incident that you were unable to observe what the marchers did after you were bumped out?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR LAX: You were asked earlier by Mr Tip whether you could see if the marchers were running away from being shot at while the shooting was happening, and you said you didn't see that.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR LAX: Did you see whether they were running forward while the shooting was on the go?

MR VAN REENEN: No I couldn't see anything.

MR LAX: You couldn't see anything at all?

MR VAN REENEN: No, when I moved into De Villiers Street I couldn't see whether or not they were storming or whether they were still moving forward as they had. They had already crossed the intersection, they had gone into King George Street and over De Villiers Street. I can't tell you whether or not they ran forward or ran backwards or whether they were toyi-toyi'ing.

MR LAX: You see because my understanding is that there was a big group of people and they pushed past you. Now I think you mentioned a figure of roundabout 500-odd people, more than that, is that right?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR LAX: For a group of that size to carry on moving into King George would have quite some time, for them to move into King George and for the end of that group to be finished, you with me?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct, I agree.

MR LAX: You retreat into De Villiers Street, but you can still see the group moving down King George Street surely, at that point? In other words even the middle or the back of that group must have still been visible to you going into King George Street?

MR VAN REENEN: After the intersection I didn't look at them again, I moved to the side into De Villiers Street, I can't tell you.

MR LAX: So you didn't turn around and observe the group at all after that?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You did say that your friend or your companion Greunen had been injured and you think, you said, he'd been injured with a spear?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't see the actual injury being inflicted, did you?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that time you were armed I take it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And Greunen was armed as well?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the possibility exists that he was stabbed at a time when he had a gun in his hand?

MR VAN REENEN: It's possible.

MR LAX: Sorry just one last thing, did it ever occur to you at any point to fire your own firearm as a warning shot to try and cause this group to disperse?

MR VAN REENEN: I didn't think of it at that stage.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair, I would likewise also like to point out just two extracts from the record and just ask the witness for his response.

Inspector, firstly I want to refer to the position of deceased and injured after the shooting incident. On page 205 of the record I will read the following extraction of your evidence, line 10, could you just find it, 205, line 10. Do you have it before you?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

MR DORFLING: It reads:

"Well I's sought shelter on the eastern side in de Villiers Street itself. If you take de Villiers Street, that would have been in de Villiers Street on the southern tip because that's where I stood. The shooting had finished. I noticed that there were plus minus 20 people who were standing on the corner of King George, they were lying on the corner of King George Street, to the west"

With reference to that evidence could assist the Committee regarding exactly where the people would be lying, how far into King George Street, was it on the intersection, where?

MR VAN REENEN: It was in King George Street itself. King George Street from north to south and it was in King George Street already past De Villiers Street, approximately 10 to 15 paces into King George Street already. The people lay on the western side in King George Street itself.

MR DORFLING: Is it correct to say that on the other side of Shell House, on the pavement?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: One of the Honourable Committee members asked you what firearms or whether you had seen any firearms amongst the crowd, you answered in the negative to that. I'd like to refer you to page 2056 of the record when it was asked to you whether or not you heard anybody fire shots from within the crowd. Could you please turn to page 2056, line 12. There advocate Matzke asked you about this specific aspect:

"When you encountered the group on St George and de Villiers Street, did you hear any gunfire from the group of Zulus" --- "No, I didn't"

Do you stand with that evidence?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes that's correct, I do.

MR DORFLING: Is it correct to say that until the moment that you were bumped out of the way you heard no gunfire, and you were right next to the march? Up until that moment you heard no gunfire coming from the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Finally, you were asked about the injury of Sergeant van Greunen, who would have reported to you that he had been injured with some sort of short object, what was the nature of the injury?

MR VAN REENEN: I don't know on which side of his shoulder it was, it was on the back of his shoulder, there was a cut.

MR DORFLING: Did he receive any stitches or medical treatment for that injury?

MR VAN REENEN: As far as I know it wasn't very serious.

MR DORFLING: It would appear then that the person who had injured him had probably been behind him when he was injured, would you agree?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: As you sit here today Inspector, you have already indicated this in the inquest, that as far as you could see, and perhaps I could refer you to the page 2056, line 22 where the question was put to whether you could find any reason why shots were fired, your answer was:

"no I can't tell you."

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Is that still your evidence, as you sit here today could you find no reason within your own mind why shots were fired?

MR VAN REENEN: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DORFLING

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, I've just got a couple of questions to raise with the witness with your leave, thank you.

Mr van Reenen, just regarding the shooting incident, if you'll refer back to page 2055 before line 10, the piece after that you relate how you arrived there and then you say:

"Moments thereafter shots were fired"

Let's just place that in perspective, you said that you and Van Greunen were bumped out of the way:

"Van Greunen went west and I went east, moments after that shots were fired"

So there moments after you had been bumped out of the way in a western direction, the shots went off?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Could I then also refer you to page 2107, at the top of the page from line 1:

"What did you see when the shots were fired for the first time"? --- When I heard the shots I saw how the group of people on the western side began to fall"

Therefore moments after you had been bumped out of the way, the shots went off and when the shots went off you saw the people fall?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: In conjunction with my learned friend's question, inasfar as it was a shooting incident from within the group, you also confirm at other places such as page 2104 that there was no shooting from within the group, that is from line 10 and further, that is in relation to my learned friend Mr Tip's questions.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: As far as you know, you never heard any shots being fired from within the group?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: And then, in conclusion, on that very same page there has been evidence given by the ANC guards, and it was also put to you that you indeed after you had tried to stop the group and they wouldn't give in to your appeal, you did not move away from the group but you actually ran back in the direction of the ANC, in fact you ran until you joined the ANC guards who were on the corner of King George's Street?

MR VAN REENEN: That is a false statement, van Greunen and I never ran back to Plein Street on the corner of King George Street, we moved down De Villiers Street, we never ran back to King George Street.

MR PRETORIUS: Constable van Greunen was with the group who had been shot where the people later fell?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR BERGER: No further questions for the witness thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

WITNESS IS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gollach would you please come forward.

MR GOLLACH: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, it's me this time.

Sergeant Gollach, I want to take you very briefly to the first incident in Plein Street when there was a shooting down from the direction of Wanderers, do you recall that?

MR GOLLACH: Ja.

MR BERGER: The shots came from the direction of Wanderers Street and an ANC guard came to you and said that they were being shot at, the ANC guards were being shot at and as a result of that you went west down Plein Street in the direction of Wanderers Street to investigate, is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You will also recall that after you had crossed Plein Street, I beg your pardon, King George Street, you said that you heard 2 to 3 shots from a handgun which was behind you, is that right?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Not a shotgun?

MR GOLLACH: No.

MR BERGER: And you'll also recall that you were very frightened at that time, correct?

MR GOLLACH: I was rather nervous, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And you will recall what was put to you, I put it to you in fact, during the inquest. I had Mr Eddie Khumalo sitting next to me and he pointed out that you were the young policeman who had taken cover in Plein Street between King George and De Villiers and that you appeared to be very frightened and in fact you were shaking, and Mr Khumalo in fact came to assist you and to take you out of that dangerous situation.

MR GOLLACH: No, at that stage all of us, myself, Skippers, Potgieter and Van Reenen had crossed the intersection. I can't remember that he took me out of there, we all moved back to the intersection.

MR BERGER: Well you'll recall at the inquest you gave various answers to that question, but the very first answer that you gave when I put it to you that Mr Khumalo said that he in fact came and took you out of that dangerous situation, you said that:

"It is possible that Mr Khumalo came to assist me"

Did you not?

MR GOLLACH: Is that in the record, if it is could you please refer me to it.

MR BERGER: Page 4214 and 4215 of the record. At the top of page 4214, well if I can just go to the bottom of 4213, I asked you:

"You felt that you were in the middle of a dangerous situation, is that right?"

You answer:

"Ja."

Question:

"You were nervous, correct?

--- "That's correct".

"You were shaking, were you not?"

Answer:

"I can't recall"

Then I said to you:

"Mr Khumalo over here, I asked him to come to Court today to see if you are one of the two people that he spoke about who was shivering in Plein Street, nervous and unsure what to do, and he tells me that you are one of them."

And your answer:

"If it is as he says it is, it may be so. That is not how I experienced it. I would say that one was afraid, one knew where the shots were coming from but I wouldn't say that I was shaking"

Question:

"And at that - there were two of you, two young Policemen and that he feared for your safety, that he came and took you out of that situation and told you Commanding Officer not to send young plicemen into such a dangerous situation."

--- "That I can't recall, no"

And then after that the Court asked you certain questions and you said you couldn't remember. Then at 4215 when I said:

"Sergeant is it possible that Mr Khumalo in fact did come and take you and a colleague of yours out of that dangerous situation?"

You said:

"Ek kan nie onthou nie, ek kan nie sê dit is nie moontlik nie. Ek kan nie onthou dan enigiemand - volgens my het ons self terugbeweeg. Ek sal nie so sê nie, nee."

And then further on you say it wasn't possible; and then further on say it was possible, but the point that I'm putting to you is that when I first asked you, you said:

"Yes, it's possible"

MR GOLLACH: It could have been, but I don't think that's what happened, we all moved back. It could have happened, but that's not how I remember it subsequently.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect Mr Chair, I think my learned friend should just read on a few more lines where the witness's evidence is quite clear at page 4215, at line 10:

"Sergeant is it possible that Mr Khumalo in fact did come to take you and a colleague of yours out of that dangerous situation. --- Ek kan nie onthou nie, ek kan nie sê dit is nie moontlik nie, ek kan nie onthou dat enigiemand - volgens my het ons self terugbeweeg. Ek sal nie so sê nie, nee."

And then by Court:

"Maar wat is daardie antwoord?"

And the answer:

"No."

That was the answer given by the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Yes, I said to the witness that he gave both answers and the first answer that he gave was the one that it is possible, and he's just confirmed now it is possible, but that's not the way he recalls it.

In that first incident, Sergeant Gollach, is it correct, this is the Wanderers Street incident, is it correct that the ANC guards that you saw were on street level, you didn't see any guards on the balcony level?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct, I didn't see anybody up there.

MR BERGER: Then after that incident you moved back to the corner of Plein and King George?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Were you standing with Sergeant Potgieter at that corner?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, it was me and Sergeant Potgieter, and I think Sergeant Skippers as well.

MR BERGER: So you're saying there were three policemen on that corner?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, I can remember seeing Sergeant Skippers there as well.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: No, there was Potgieter, himself and Skippers.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR GOLLACH: No Chairperson, Potgieter, Skippers and me.

MR BERGER: And you - did you see Sergeant van Reenen and van Greunen moving up King George Street towards the marchers in De Villiers Street?

MR GOLLACH: Yes Chairperson.

MR BERGER: You also saw Sergeant van Reenen and Van Greunen trying to keep the marchers away, from coming down towards where you were standing, correct?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: You also saw that the marchers paid absolutely no heed, and knocked Van Reenen and Van Greunen out of the way?

MR GOLLACH: I didn't physically see him being bumped out of the way, I just saw the group continuing with their movement ahead, through Van Greunen and Van Reenen.

MR BERGER: What you saw is Van Reenen and Van Greunen being engulfed by the crowd?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct Chairperson.

MR BERGER: You never saw Mr von Eggedy, is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: Not from where I was.

MR BERGER: And at that time you were standing amongst the ANC guards?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: In fact you evidence was that you were right inbetween the guards.

MR GOLLACH: Among the guards, that's correct.

MR BERGER: You had a clear view of Van Reenen and Van Greunen running up the street and what was happening to them at the intersection?

MR GOLLACH: Up until that point, yes.

MR BERGER: And yet you never saw Von Eggedy at all?

MR GOLLACH: I didn't see him there.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that at the critical time you were actually not on that corner Sergeant Gollach?

MR GOLLACH: At that stage I was on the corner.

MR BERGER: Were you on that corner when the guards on that corner opened fire?

MR GOLLACH: When the ANC security guard with the AK47 began to shoot I moved to the entrance because I saw that more guards were coming out, and I told people to move back because of the guards that were coming out. I was there just as the shooting began, just as the guard began shooting.

MR BERGER: Your colleague Constable Skippers saw one of the marchers coming down from De Villiers Street towards Plein in King George with an AK47, you didn't see that either?

MR GOLLACH: No, I didn't see that.

MR BERGER: According to your evidence the ANC guard with the AK47 fired, as you put it, a "sarsie skote". You said maybe 5 or a few more shots.

MR GOLLACH: It was only a few shots which he fired.

MR BERGER: You then went round the corner towards the entrance of Shell House; you went to look for Major Els, you couldn't find him; you then went up Klein Street, you came up again west in De Villiers Street to the corner of King George and De Villiers, am I right?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct Chairperson.

MR BERGER: You never saw Sergeant van Reenen in De Villiers Street, am I correct?

MR GOLLACH: Sergeant van Reenen in De Villiers Street?

MR BERGER: Yes.

MR GOLLACH: When I came back on the other side, Sergeant Skippers, he was in De Villiers Street. I didn't see Inspector van Reenen in De Villiers Street, I didn't notice him there.

MR BERGER: You were watching the crowd at the time that the ANC guards opened fire?

MR GOLLACH: I was chatting to the ANC guards all the time, then I saw the march move up through Van Reenen and Van Greunen. That's the last time I saw them.

MR BERGER: So are you saying that if they had attacked, and I can give you the words of Mr von Eggedy, if they had been brandishing their weapons on full charge in the manner of an attack, are you saying you might not have seen that?

MR GOLLACH: At that stage I didn't see it like that.

MR BERGER: Thank you Sergeant, I'm done. Thank you Sergeant.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MS KHAMPEPE: Sergeant, I don't know whether you actually understood the last question, would you have been in a position to have seen if the crowd was on full charge from where you were?

MR GOLLACH: At that stage they weren't storming. When they moved past Van Reenen and Van Greunen, that was the last time that I saw them, they weren't storming, they had just gone through the intersection, they weren't storming, they didn't come running, they were simply toyi-toying.

MR BERGER: Sorry Chairperson, if I may just ask two more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry Sergeant Gollach. When you were standing at that corner, you never saw or heard any shot strike the window of the shop a few metres in front of you?

MR GOLLACH: No I didn't experience it that way while I was standing there.

MR BERGER: You never saw anybody fire any shots into the underside of the parapet on the corner of King George and Plein Street?

MR GOLLACH: No, I also didn't experience it in that way.

MR BERGER: And you never saw any of the ANC guards fire warning shots?

MR GOLLACH: No.

MR BERGER: Either into the air or into the underside of the parapet?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You never saw it?

MR GOLLACH: No.

MR BERGER: Thank you very much.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR DORFLING: Thank you Chair. With your permission, may I just with reference to the witness's evidence in front of the inquest, refer the witness to page 4184 of the record from line 6 onwards. Sergeant I'm going to read you a piece of evidence, I'll read it paragraph by paragraph, upon which I would like for you to indicate to the Committee whether that evidence is correct or incorrect, and if it is incorrect, in what respect it is incorrect. This is with regard to the inquest. You refer on line 6, page 4184 to the position of the marchers when you saw them for the first time:

"Waar was hierdie groep toe u hulle die eerste keer sien, hoe ver nog?"

--- "So 10 meter sou ek skat voor die kruising in King George en De Villiers aan die ander kant van die kruising."

You're referring to the northern side of the intersection on King George and de Villiers, is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Is that paragraph correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Ja.

"Op hierdie stadium het Sersant van Reenen en Sersant Van Greunen vooruit gehardloop in King Georgestraat in die rigting van hierdie optoggangers? --- Ek self, Potgieter en Skippers, ek weet nie van ander lede wat daar was nie op die toneel. Het die kruising oorgesteek op die sypaadjie van Shell House, waar ons van die sekuriteitswagte gesien het wat daar bymekaar gekom het. Ek het gemerk dat Van Reenen en Van Greunen het vooruit gehardloop na die kruising toe waar hulle optoggangers ongeveer in die middel van die kruising probeer keer het, probeer wegwys het. Hulle het aangehou loop, die optoggangers, deur Van Greunen en Van Reenen. Op daardie stadium het die ANC wagte wat hier by ons gestaan het vir ons gesê dat hulle gaan skiet op hierdie optoggangers."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Can you firstly tell us how many guards there were? Approximately 10 or more, 10 tot 12, is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING:

"Waar was u op daardium stadium? --- Ek was reg tussen die wagte gewees op die sypaadjie, reg langs Shell House gewees, op die suid-westelike hoek."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING:

"En as ek u sê hulle het gesê hulle gaan skiet, het almal gelyk gepraat, het een persoon gepraat? --- Nee, dit was - die spanning het hoog geloop. Die mense, die sekuriteitswagte het die heeltyd vir my gesê hulle gaan op die mense skiet. Ek het die heeltyd met hulle terruggepraat in Engels en gesê hulle moennie skiet nie, aangesien ek nie gedink het op daardie stadium dit is nodig dat hulle moet skiet nie."

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING:

"En wat was u reaksie as u sê hulle moennie skiet nie? --- Dit was die heeltyd het hulle vir my gesê hulle gaan skiet. Dit het vir my voorgekom asof hulle baie gespanne was en gereed was om te skiet. Ek het die gemoedere die heeltyd kalmeer, en vir hulle gesê om nie te skiet nie."

"Op daardie stadium toe u nou met hierdie wagte gepraat het, die groep wat nou in aantog was, het u enigiets agtergekom uit hulle houding uit, het u enigiets gehoor van daardie kant af? --- Nee, ek kon niks uit hulle houding opermerk. Ek weet nie wat u spesifiek bedoel nie, houdings soos in?"

"U sê u het nie gedink dit is nodig vir die wagte om te skiet nie, hoekom sê u so? --- Hulle het aangehou loop oor die kruising, getoyi-toyi in die sin van dans toyi-toyi, en ek het die laaste keer opgemerk toe hulle verby Van Reenen-hulle beweeg in die kruising, steeds waar ek die heeltyd met die ANC wagte probeer onderhandel het. Ek het nie daarna weer gekyk wat die houding was, en enigiets van dié aard nie, wat dit was nie."

"Goed, wat gebeur toe? --- Die ANC wagte wat op diehoek was waar ons gestaan het was gewapen met handwapens, en onder andere het ek een gesien met 'n AK47 geweer."

Is that evidence correct?"

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.

MR DORFLING:

"Ja, die gemoedere het hoog geloop die heeltyd. Dit was spanningsvol en op 'n stadium het van die ANC wagte begin skiet op die optoggangers."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING:

"Goed u moet probeer om soveel detail ten opsigte van dit aan die Hof te gee wat u kan onthou. Wie het eerste geskiet en wat het gebeur? --- Ek kan nie onthou wie van die wagte eerste geskiet het nie, maar wat ek wel kan onthou is dat die een met die AK47 het geskiet. Hy het op die grond gelê."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: I would just like to make certain that I understand your evidence correctly, are you saying that the first person who shot, shot from within the ranks of the ANC guards?

MR GOLLACH: From where I was standing, where the first shots were fired from was where I was standing with those people who I was with.

MR DORFLING: And then with reference to the man with the AK47:

"U sê hy het op die grond gelê en in die rigting van die aankomende optoggangers geskiet? --- Ek het gemerk van waar ek staan dat nog wagte vanuit Shell House kom om te kom aansluit by hierdie groep wat hier gestaan het"

Is dit korrek?

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.

MR DORFLING:

"Ek het op daardie stadium het ek hulle teruggejaag of teruggestuur, ek het vir hulle gesê hulle is nie nodig nie, hulle moet teruggaan. Dadelik het daarvandaan afbeweeg na die hoofingang en ek het hulle teruggestuur in die gebou in, waarop hulle gereageer het. Hulle het teruggegaan."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that is correct.

MR DORFLING: Lastly page 4187, Sergeant, line 18 to 22:

"Weet u hoe die skietery begin het? --- Ek weet nie hoe die skietery begin het nie, ek kan net getuig dan van die ANC sekuriteitswagte geskiet het, maar ek weet nie wie dit begin het nie. Ek het nie skote gehoor wat van ander plekke afgekom het nie, ek het net die skote gehoor wat hulle geskiet het."

Is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: If evidence were to be placed before the Committee which would indicate that from within the crowds shots were fired from the ANC guards, or that that is the impression which was created while you were with the guards, what would your comment be?

MR GOLLACH: I did not notice anything like that, I did not hear any shots coming from the crowd from where I was standing.

MR DORFLING: According to you evidence as I understand today, the first shots which you heard were fired in your immediate environment?

MR GOLLACH: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Sergeant, you also confirmed with my learned friend Mr Berger, that when the shooting incident began you moved away from the corner?

MR GOLLACH: When the guard with the AK47 began shooting I moved back to the front, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: The shooting continued thereafter, but you moved away from it?

MR GOLLACH: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman, with your leave, may I just ask one question to this witness?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR VAN WYK: Thank you. Sergeant, I would like to know, that you mentioned earlier in that morning you were monitoring the radio, and that you went to the corners of Jeppe and Vermeulen Streets?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR VAN WYK: You received a report that there was a person who was shooting at some of the marchers from within a building?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct, Inspector van Reenen was already on the scene.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MS KHAMPEPE: Sergeant following from the questions which have been posed by Mr Dorfling, I just want to know, when this ANC security guard told you that they were about to shoot, was it after both Sergeant van Greunen and Van Reenen had been engulfed by the crowd?

MR GOLLACH: I can't say with certainty where they were at that stage. I can't say at which stage that took place, I can't even recall.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much, you're excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

JUDGE NGCOBO: How long do you need to call Mr Mhlaba?

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, provided that I can see Mr Mhlaba tomorrow morning ...(intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes we understand that, but how much time do you need to be able to call Mr Mhlaba, I think that's what we want to establish.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, wait, how much time you need to find him? You've had enough time to find him.

MR DORFLING: We've trying to get him here tomorrow morning Mr Chair. I can't give an undertaking that he would be here, we're trying our best. Mr Chair, may I just seek your guidance. The witness Sergeant van Greunen is also present. He has been subpoenaed for today. Is there a need for him to attend tomorrow morning?

CHAIRPERSON: Are there questions you wish to put to Greunen as well?

MR DORFLING: Yes Mr Chairman, briefly, we will not detain the Committee long.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now ...

MR VAN GREUNEN: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR TIPP: Sergeant van Greunen, you've been listening to the evidence and you've seen what the process is. We just want to highlight one or two aspects of what happened at Shell House insofar as it concerns you.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And if you want to answer in Afrikaans, you've heard the ruling, you're very free and welcome to do so.

MR VAN GREUNEN: No it's not a problem.

MR TIPP: Whatever suits you. Sergeant, you'd been at Shell House throughout the morning, is that correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And was there at any time throughout your presence as a policeman there, any discussion as to what the police were to do in the event of a confrontation-situation arising?

MR VAN GREUNEN: None at all.

MR TIPP: You were not briefed and you were not given any orders by your Commanding Officer, Major Els?

MR VAN GREUNEN: None at all, we were just told we're working in special digits that day.

MR TIPP: That's all?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: And we know that at 10h30 the Regional Commissioner, General Calitz, gave an order as a matter of priority that Shell House was to be cleared, you heard nothing about such order and you saw nothing being done to give effect to it?

MR VAN GREUNEN: None at all.

MR TIPP: Now Sergeant, at about 10h45, the Committee has already heard the evidence, I'm just going through it to put you in context, there were some shots down from the area roughly of Wanderers Street, apparently from some marchers and a number of policemen went off in that direction to investigate.

MR VAN GREUNEN: I don't know about the policemen who went to investigate about a shooting in Wanderers Street at that time.

MR TIPP: Well let - I'm not going to waste time on it, but you gave evidence at the inquest that at about 10h45 you heard a few shots and you moved west to the corner of King George and Plein Street, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And roundabout 11h00 shortly before the main shooting, the shooting that we're all concerned with, you heard other shots there in the vicinity of Shell House?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And your state of mind at that time, one couldn't tell precisely where they were coming from or what was happening, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you yourself were very tense and nervous?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And that is before the large group of marchers that you saw even came into your sight?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Generally Sergeant, the atmosphere there was one of tension and a sense of emminant peril, would you agree?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I agree.

MR TIPP: And that that is something that the ANC personnel there would also have shared from your observation there?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct, we were all tense.

MR TIPP: Now Sergeant, you've of course heard already me raise with Inspector van Reenen the apparently strange circumstance that two police officers, you and now Inspector van Reenen ran up to stop the crowd, you saw a group of 500 coming from De Villiers Street and round the corner into King George, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And in fact you gave evidence at the inqest that you'd looked up towards up King George Street in the direction of Noord Street and you hadn't seen a large group from there at all?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And we know in fact that there was one group from De Villiers Street and another from King George Street.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Now all that I'm putting to you is that the strange circumstance of so large a difference in observation in respect of groups of 500 is to be accounted for, because the events happened so fast and because they were really very frightening from beginning to end, would you agree with that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I would agree.

MR TIPP: You yourself, as you were moving up with then Sergeant van Reenen to try to stop the group from coming on, you felt afraid for your own safety?

MR VAN GREUNEN: You could say I was cautious and I was afraid, although it was part of the duty to try and stop the conflict before it happens.

MR TIPP: It's not for me to compliment you, but it must have been a very difficult situation for any policeman, and an act of courage to move in that direction at all, but be that as it may, I'm just going to refer you to your evidence, I can read it if necessary, if you don't recall it Sergeant, you just say so, but you gave evidence that as you approached the marchers you felt that you were in danger, you didn't know how the Zulus would react to you approaching them and you didn't know what was going to happen there. Do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And also it was a dangerous situation because you had, as you put it, the Zulus with traditional weapons on the one side and the ANC with firearms on the other side?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And the potential for conflict was clear to you at that time?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's also correct.

MR TIPP: Also at the time, is it correct that the possibility had crossed your mind that these marchers might in fact try to press their way into Shell House?

MR VAN GREUNEN: At that stage I didn't really think about that at that time, all I thought about was trying to get the people to move in a different direction other than coming up in King George Street.

MR TIPP: Perhaps you can just explain one, a couple of lines from your evidence.

Mr Chairman at page 1986, line 13 to 17.

You have your record there Sergeant, I think. I'll just read it to you. You'd given reasons why you at one stage of your evidence had said that you could see no reason why there had been shooting on the marchers, and one of them was that the building, Shell House, had according to you, correctly or not is unimportant now, but you had believed that it had bulletproof doors, do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct, ja.

MR TIPP: And I then asked you at line 13 on that page:

"Kan 'n mens daarvan die gevolgtrekking maak dat hoewel ten tye van die voorval opgeval het dat die optoggangers miskien sou probeer om binne-in Shell House in te druk?"

And your answer was:

"Dit kan moontlik wees."

And I asked you again:

"Moontlik?"

And you said: "Ja."

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct, Sir.

MR TIPP: And do I understand that bit of evidence correctly then that "ten tye van die voorval", at the time of the incident, that possibility had crossed your mind?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: Now we already know Sergeant that you, as did Inspector van Reenen, both of you were in uniform as you approached the on-coming marchers, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Police uniform, a regulation blue uniform?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you were both openly carrying arms, in fact you were carrying a shotgun.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And it was perfectly visible to people as you approached them?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: It was also absolutely clear to them that you police officers wanted them not to proceed further south down King George Street?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Notwithstanding that, you were knocked out of the way by them?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And in the course of that you were injured by a spear or an assegaai, fortunately not a serious injury?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: But nevertheless Sergeant, it was an injury caused by someone who was aggessively pushing you out of the way, so that he and his fellow, the fellows in the group could move on to where they wanted to go?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: The general bearing of that group, the one that gave you cause for alarm about your safety, was one of aggressiveness, do you agree?

MR VAN GREUNEN: At first it didn't seem as aggressive. I guess when we tried to stop them, they probably just wanted to show us, listen we're gonna carry on up the street, and that's it.

MR TIPP: Well at that moment, that's the critical moment really, at that stage was it clear to you that their conduct was in fact aggressive?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Ja, I felt that way, ja.

MR TIPP: Yes. And when you were knocked to one side you ended up with your back against the burglar-bars of the window of the Woburn Pharmacy, which is on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street opposite Shell House?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And while you were there, members of this crowd were still knocking you aside as they moved past you?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: That was also your evidence. And like Inspector van Reenen, you regularly in your evidence in the inquest used the phrase

"uit die pad uit gestamp"

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And they had in fact proceeded, the front of the group in your estimation at the time, had proceeded some 5 or 10 metres past the pharmacy when shooting broke out.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Is it also correct, and you gave a graphic description Sergeant, that members of this crowd then were trying to flee, some were falling, whether they had been struck by gunfire or were simply taking cover, you did not know but while that was happening gunfire continued.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you, to get out of the scene of that conflict, then ran around the corner into De Villiers Street?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is also correct.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, just one moment.

Just in conclusion Sergeant, and again if necessary I can refer you to passages, if you're not certain then I'll do so with pleasure, but you'll remember that in the course of the inquest you were asked whether you could say positively where the first shots came from. At some points in your evidence you said that you couldn't say where the first shots came from; at other points in your evidence you said they came from your right-hand side, from the direction of the ANC. Do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And as you sit there today, would it be fair to say that you really, you are not confidently able to state under oath where those first shots came from?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's also correct.

MR TIPP: And you'll remember also Sergeant, although there's nothing in your statement to this effect, in fact nothing about Shell House really at all, at one stage you said that you had heard one of the ANC people on the corner say something like the following "let's kill some Zulus, they are going to attack Shell House", do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I remember that.

MR TIPP: And you also remember that at other points in your evidence you accepted that perhaps it hadn't happened at all?

MR VAN GREUNEN: It's ...

MR TIPP: Would you like me to refer you it?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Yes please.

MR TIPP: Yes, I'll do so.

Mr Chairman at page 1990, just to put it in context Mr Chairman, the Committee will see that at page 1989 I raised in cross-examination the question of this statement, I'm not going to read it. At page 1990, line 1 the Court asked:

"Wel is u seker dit het gebeur, of maak u miskien 'n fout, want soos ek verstaan, sekere van daardie persone wat daar was, vennaam ANC lede, hulle gaan sê dit het nie gebeur nie, niemand het dit gesê nie. Is u seker, of is u nie seker nie, maak u 'n fout?"

And your answer:

"Ek weet nie of die ander Polisiemanne wat saam met my daar was die opmerkings gehoor het en dit in hulle verklarings geskryf het nie, dan sê ek maar eerder ek is nie seker daar nie."

Right?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: At there are a few other, at line 12 you said "so sê maar liewer ek is nie seker nie." At line, approximately 16, you said:

"goed, ek is dan nie seker nie."

At line 19 you said:

"Ek sal sê ek kan dit onthou"

You went back to saying "well I can remember it." And then at line 27 I asked you, I pointed out:

"Daar's geen melding van so 'n opmerking in u verklaring nie"

And then your answer was:

"Dan dra ek nie kennis nie."

And there are one or two other such references.

Again, as you sit there Sergeant, we're not running a trial, as you sit there, are you confidently able to state under oath that you definitely heard such a remark, or are you not sure?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I'm not sure, Sir.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

JUDGE NGCOBO: Where would you have obtained the information regarding those remarks from?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 1990.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Did you hear those remarks or didn't you hear them?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I'd say no, I didn't hear those remarks, Sir.

JUDGE NGCOBO: I beg your pardon?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: He says that he didn't hear.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, just one or two aspects. Mr van Greunen did you ever see a firearm amongst the crowd, the Zulus?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Negative.

MR PRETORIUS: When the shooting started, you described it at 1987 further as a "volley of shots" that started firing whilst you were standing with you back against the pharmacy, is that correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct Sir.

MR PRETORIUS: And that is then that you also experienced the people falling down around you, you can't say whether they were shot or not, but they were felling down around you, is that correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

MR DORFLING: No questions thank you Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DORFLING

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr van Greunen, would I be correct in saying that amongst the portion of the crowd that you saw, you didn't see a firearm?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct Madam.

MS KHAMPEPE: But you would be unable to say whether of the approximately 500 members who constituted that crowd, none of them had a firearm?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I didn't see any firearms amongst the crowd.

MS KHAMPEPE: Of the portion that you saw?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Of the portion that I saw, that's right.

MS KHAMPEPE: Are you telling us that of the crowd that you saw, the entire crowd, because the evidence that is before us is that you were able to observe that the crowd consisted of approximately 500 members, am I correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct Madam.

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes. Would I be therefore correct that you didn't observe 500 members and you would be unable to say, of the 500 members that you saw, at least initially observed, you would be unable to say if none of them carried any firearm?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I would be unable.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair may I just indicate, I've had word about the one gentleman that tried to locate the witness and as at 16h30 this afternoon we weren't able to locate Mr Mhlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if he's not here by 09h30 tomorrow morning we will proceed without him.

MR DORFLING: I would urge the Committee to consider obtaining the availability of Mr Mhlaba. We're trying our best to locate him. He had an appointment with me last week and it was arranged for the purposes of him here but I'm just having difficulty to locate him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I'm not making a decision just now but I'm tempted to say that if we can't trace him by tomorrow morning then we'll have to proceed with the inquiry without him.

JUDGE NGCOBO: When last was Mr Mhlaba seen?

MR DORFLING: I spoke to him in person on the last occasion when we took the adjournment.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Oh I see, okay. But does he work in Johannesburg, do you know?

MR DORFLING: He was unemployed at that point in time as far as I was aware.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, okay. Was he informed that he would be required to come and give evidence today?

MR DORFLING: Indeed so, I made an appointment with him to see me last week for purposes of adducing his evidence in this week, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, thank you, very well.

CHAIRPERSON: The appointment was not made by you personally, but through somebody else?

MR DORFLING: No, no, I personally arranged with Mr Mhlaba to come and see me last week Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DORFLING: I saw him in person at the time of the last adjournment and I at that occasion arranged for him to come and see me last week and ever since he didn't turn up. We have trying to locate him.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Is there any - do you have any other witness that we might be able to hear perhaps in the absence of Mr Mhlaba?

MR DORFLING: From my side I've got no further witnesses.

JUDGE NGCOBO: What about your colleagues?

MR PRETORIUS: We've got no witnesses we'd like to call, but all I'm going to submit is just some further pages by Mr du Plessis of the ballistic experts. Honourable Chairman and Committee members would recall that my learned friend, Mr Berger submitted certain pages but not the full report, and there's just a few pages in addition to that which I would like to submit.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, may I just reverting to Mr Mhlaba indicate that on the last occasion when I saw him, the date for this hearing hadn't been fixed, that's why we only had an arrangement to see each other prior to the hearing and unfortunately I couldn't fix a date because I didn't see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, I'm now going to adjourn and we'll resume at 09h30 tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION: 04.08.98 - DAY 2

CHAIRPERSON: Before the commencing of evidence I'd just like to place on record the tragedy suffered by Ms Ramula Patel, the leader of evidence. She received news last night that her mother had passed away after a short illness, and she had to leave early this morning. We're sorry that she's had to meet this kind of difficulty and my Committee will be conveying our sympathies to her and to the other members of her family.

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman we would like to place on record our sadness about the announcement of this event. She is a person who has been of tremendous assistance to all of us in making documents available and always being available and we associate ourselves with the remarks that you have made.

MR DORFLING: Could we likewise on behalf of the objectors convey our sympathies to the family and bereaved ones.

MR PRETORIUS: From our side we'd like to convey our sympathies as well.

There's just one further thing, Ms Patel assisted us by making available to us her copy of the record so that we could make copies of that last night, on the understanding that we return it to her this morning. We've indeed got the copies here, her copy here to be returned to her but unfortunately we can't return it to her now in view of the circumstances. May I request from the Chair to indicate to us to whom we can return it so that it can eventually find its way to herself.

CHAIRPERSON: At the conclusion of these hearings you can bring them over to me and I will see to it that it reaches her. Thank you very much.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dorfling your witness is ready?

MR DORFLING: Indeed so Mr Chair. I beg leave to call Mr Bafana Gonzweize Mhlaba. The witness will be giving his evidence in the Zulu language, Mr Chair.

BAFANA GONZWEIZE MHLABA: (Duly sworn in, states)

EXAMINATION BY MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair.

Mr Mhlaba you were born in 1957, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: You were brought up in the Zulu culture, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Do you still adhere to Zulu tradition and Zulu rituals?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Have you undergone any formal schooling?

MR MHLABA: I didn't attend school.

MR DORFLING: On the 28th of March 1994 you were residing at the Mansfield Hostel in room no E7, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Presently you are unemployed, were you employed at that stage?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I worked.

MR DORFLING: Now there was a planned Zulu gathering at Library Gardens on the 28th of March 1994, did this come to your knowledge?

MR MHLABA: I was told by our team leader or our Induna, Mr Mbatha.

MR DORFLING: What were you told by Mr Mbatha?

MR MHLABA: Mbatha told us that there is an imbezo, a meeting, where the King will be present and that will be in town.

MR DORFLING: Was any venue in specific mentioned to you?

MR MHLABA: They said we will meet at the place he said, the garden, Library Gardens.

MR DORFLING: Did you at that stage know where the Library Gardens were situated?

MR MHLABA: I didn't know the place personally.

MR DORFLING: How were you going to find your way there?

MR MHLABA: Mr Mbatha was to direct us.

MR DORFLING: Is that Induna Mbatha?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Can you describe the events of the morning of the 28th of March 1994? I want you to start at the hostel, how you found your route to town and what happened.

MR MHLABA: Yes, I can explain before the Committee. I don't know whether I can continue?

MR DORFLING: Yes, please continue.

MR MHLABA: On that particular day as we were informed earlier before the day, on the 28th we were called as usual by a clock. On our arrival the Induna took us into a train. At the Mansfield Station we went in and we got into the train and we departed.

MR DORFLING: The people that boarded the train, were they residents of the Mansfield Hostel?

MR MHLABA: Yes, but I will not know because we find some other people waiting at the station, they might be people from outside.

MR DORFLING: Fine you may proceed, you then boarded the train, what happened then?

MR MHLABA: The train pulled out, we were happy until we arrived at Park Station.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened at Park Station?

MR MHLABA: When we arrived at Park Station, those who were in the front coaches, as we were in the middle coaches, they went out of the train while our group went out following them.

MR DORFLING: Were you divided into two groups at that stage?

MR MHLABA: I would say I don't remember if there were more that two, but I would say ... (no further English translation)

INTERPRETER: Excuse me, there are some technical problems.

MR DORFLING: Can I for the convenience of the Interpreter just perhaps repeat the question. Were you divided into two groups at that point in time?

MR MHLABA: As I have explained, when I alighted from the train there was one group infront of us, I was in the second group myself. I won't be able to say if there was a third or another group.

MS KHAMPEPE: May I interpose, when you got out of the station, you yourself in the group in which you were in, did you meet with the second group? Did you meet the second group to form one group?

MR MHLABA: When we went outside we didn't combine to form one group, we just followed each other.

MS KHAMPEPE: "We just follow each other", you mean going to the same direction, the same ..(indistinct)?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Did you have anybody in particular leading your group?

MR MHLABA: Nobody was an Induna in our group, the Induna was in front, however there were marshals who controlled us, or the chorus leaders.

MR DORFLING: If you say the Induna was in the front, was that in the front of the first group in other words, to leave the station?

MR MHLABA: Yes, he was infront of the first group.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened as you come out of the station?

MR MHLABA: Out of the station we saw our brothers who were being turned back from a direction which we were supposed to proceed. Our brothers were stopped by the police and we were told that we should turn to the left and use that street to the left. We followed them.

MR DORFLING: You are referring to you "brothers", are you referring to the first group or to other people?

MR MHLABA: I'm talking about the first group which was in front of us.

MR DORFLING: You explained that they were turned back, and then later you explained they were asked to turn left, can you just explain what exactly happened?

MR MHLABA: The truth is I didn't say they were turned back, I said since they were in front of us they were told that they shouldn't take the turn out from the Park Station, they should take the left turn and take the road from the Park Station, not that they should go back but they should turn to the left.

MR DORFLING: Yes, did your group follow that group?

MR MHLABA: Yes we followed them, the group that was told to turn to the left.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened then?

MR MHLABA: The group in front of us proceeded to the left and we followed it. It was on a certain street they took a turn, I will say it is the second street, they turned to the right, and we were following them. There were some sounds of explosion and I didn't know from which direction they were coming from.

MR DORFLING: Can I just interpose here Mr Mhlaba. Do you know the street names?

MR MHLABA: I don't know them.

MR DORFLING: Okay, you mentioned that the first group at the second street turned to their right, you followed them and then there was this sound of explosions, what do you mean by that?

MR MHLABA: Since we're behind them and we didn't take a turn we heard explosions but we didn't know where they were coming from, we were still far back.

MR DORFLING: If you say an explosion, is it like a bomb or something else?

MR MHLABA: The sound of guns or rifles.

MR DORFLING: Could you at that point in time determine from where these gunshots were coming?

MR MHLABA: As I said, I will not be in a position to explain as to where the sound was coming from because I was right inbetween the buildings.

MR DORFLING: You've mentioned that the first group turned right at the second street, did your group follow them?

MR MHLABA: Yes we also turned right and on the second street they turned and that's where we came to meet them to form one group.

MR DORFLING: I just want to make sure we understand you correctly, so as you were directed to go left at the station you proceeded over one street and at the second street the first group turned to their right, and your group followed them, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: And what happened then?

MR MHLABA: When we met them and form one group, as I've explained, we met them at that turn and we formed one group.

MR DORFLING: If you say "you met them at a turn", what do you mean?

MR MHLABA: As we're following each other and they were in front of us, we found them standing as we're coming from behind, so we met them there and we formed one group.

MR DORFLING: Mr Mhlaba I want you to explain, you said you found them and met with them at a turn, can you just explain that please?

MR MHLABA: When I say we met them in Zulu, as I've explained we were following each other, when someone come to a stop and you came to that place, it means we met, it means we are no longer following each other.

MS KHAMPEPE: Can you briefly explain yourself. I would like you to explain to me that at the time when you were still following each other, the other group was in front of you, was it at any stage did you ever went a different direction, took a different street, or were you walking on the same street?

MR MHLABA: We were on the same street but we were not close to each other. I will say that we're about some few paces from each other but on the same street.

MS KHAMPEPE: When you say there was a time where you came to meet each other, did you mean that those in front came to a stop and they waited for you to arrive at the same spot?

MR MHLABA: Yes, they stopped for us so that we can meet and form one group to go together.

MR MHLABA: Was it not because you took different roads?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: That was the clarification that was needed.

MR LAX: If I could just interpose for a second, you said you met them at a turn, and I understood Mr Dorfling to ask you, "what do you mean by at a turn"?

MR DORFLING: Indeed so, Mr Chair.

MR MHLABA: I didn't say we met at a turn, I said we took a turn on the second road or street and just before there's the intersection, they stop and waited for us. So I would say that's an intersection, a four-way stop.

MR DORFLING: I'm indebted to the Committee members, thank you.

What happened then?

MR MHLABA: We left as one group and there was Mr Mbatha as one of the marshals controlling the crowd, and that's where the shooting started. It looked like they were inside the building. They shot at us and we turned to run away. When I turned to look back I saw one of my colleagues or my friend injured.

MR DORFLING: Can we just stop there for a moment Mr Mhlaba. I would like you to go slowly and explain everything that you saw on that day. Can we first just go back at the time when you were together at the intersection, the two groups. Just before the shooting commenced, what were you doing?

MR MHLABA: We were shouting our Zulu - it's a tradition praise song, shouting in Zulu "amandla", ...[indistinct] as power to us.

JUDGE NGCOBO: No, no, Mr Interpreter, the witness was saying "uSotho", not "amandla".

MR DORFLING: With your leave Mr Chair I would ask the witness to get up from where he's standing and perhaps just give a description of the movement that was taking place at that point in time and the words that were uttered, with your leave.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: Can I perhaps ask the witness to come to the front somewhere here to just make it visible to all of us.

MR MHLABA DEMONSTRATES AS REQUESTED

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair, I'm indebted to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Witness describes a movement forward and with every two steps a short step backwards, but at each time he moved his right arm was raised above his shoulder when he repeated the words "Amandla Awetho" and the word "Usotho".

MR DORFLING: I'm indebted for that Mr Chair. A further significant which I would perhaps like to place on record if the Committee is in agreement with that, is that the one foot is constantly leading, the one foot remains behind the other. A step forward, either the left foot or the right foot leading at the time of the forward movement and it remains the same foot that's leading.

CHAIRPERSON: Any objection to that?

MR BERGER: There's no objections.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR DORFLING: What is the significance of this movement and these utterances Mr Mhlaba? What does it mean?

MR MHLABA: It means that we, according to the Zulu tradition, when we are happy or celebrating to a function, it's always our tradition that we should do it step by step while shouting the praises.

MR DORFLING: I note that you say whilst shouting the praises, are the words you used actually praise words?

MR MHLABA: I'm not understanding, I'm not getting the full understanding of what you are saying. I would like a clarification.

MR DORFLING: Yes, you mentioned that this is always the way we do things when we're shouting the praises, that's the way it was translated. I'm trying to ask you or to convey to you that you should try and explain that to the Committee. These praises you're referring to, are those the words you used, are those praise words?

MR MHLABA: I would say those are the words that we use to celebrate when we're celebrating. When we are going to an Imbizo, a traditional meeting or whatever meeting called in the community to meet the King.

MR DORFLING: Are there words you uttered, are these words you uttered and the movements you made on that day any different from what you would do during other gatherings on behalf of ...(intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Dorfling, just a minute. Did you say that ...(no English translation)

MR MHLABA: ...(no English translation)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Ja okay, you said these words are the words that you normally use when you are to meet Zulu?

MR MHLABA: I mean when we're having meetings.

JUDGE NGCOBO: But not to meet the King?

MR MHLABA: I would say the meeting of the Zulus is when we're asked to meet the King or a Chief, we use the same words. We always do it in the name of the King.

MR DORFLING: You were doing this movement and uttering these words at the time when the shooting commenced. Can you describe in detail what you saw yourself, not what you were told by anybody else, what you yourself observed when the shooting commenced?

MR MHLABA: I would say the truth is, when we started chanting together as a group they started shooting at us. We didn't continue forward, we ran backwards. Some of our friends didn't manage to escape because when I turned back, I realised that one of our friends was injured from the back and he was bleeding.

MR DORFLING: Before you attended to this friend of yours, can you describe whether you say anybody shooting in the direction of the marchers?

MR MHLABA: Yes I did see the people who were shooting. I can't remember the number but they were under the building. There were some on top of the building, about three of them who were shooting at us, shooting from above. I saw them while trying to help the injured brother.

MR DORFLING: Can I again ask you to just take it step by step. The people that you saw, as you call it: "under the building", would you describe exactly where you saw them.

MR MHLABA: In front of us, towards our direction where we're going, the direction in which we're proceeding.

MR DORFLING: Were they down the street in the direction you were continuing in?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question.

MR DORFLING: Were they further down the street in the direction you were continuing in?

MR MHLABA: Yes, they were on the same street, right in front of us. I wouldn't say down or up the street but they were really on the same street, just before us.

MR DORFLING: Now you were at that point in time, roughly at an intersection you've described?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Now how far ahead of you did you see these people, just roughly? If you can perhaps with reference to a building or a street indicate where they were positioned.

MR MHLABA: I would say from where I am they will be on the opposite building, on the other side, I will say referring to Small Street, just to the other building after passing Small Street.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair I would venture to suggest in the region of 50 metres perhaps from where the witness is sitting to the other side of the Small Street Road so to speak, just outside the church.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Not very clear views, but we'll accept that as a rough figure Mr Chairman.

MR DORFLING: You've described the people in that direction, did you yourself see any of them shooting in the direction of the marchers?

MR MHLABA: Some of them whom I saw, there were those who were on top of the building which we were to pass, it building in stones. They were standing on top of the building and they were shooting at us. That was the last time I saw the people who shot at us.

MR DORFLING: Can we just go back to the first person or persons that you saw shooting in the direction of the crowd, who are they and where were they positioned?

MR MHLABA: I wouldn't be able to say who they were, they were dressed in white clothes. I don't know how many there were.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mhlaba in your evidence you have talked about two different people, there were those who were in front of you and there were others who were shooting from the top of the building?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: Your lawyer is trying to find out exactly who were the first between these two groups to shoot at you. Were they the people who were right in front of you or whether they were the people on top of the building who started shooting.

MR MHLABA: I would say the people who first shot at us, they were the people who were right in front of us.

MR DORFLING: Now can we go through it step by step and just take it slowly Mr Mhlaba. You see the people in front of you, they shoot in the direction of the crowd, what do you do? Just slowly, step by step.

MR MHLABA: When they started shooting at us we turned back and ran.

MR DORFLING: Yes, and what happened then?

MR MHLABA: While we were running back, not all of us managed to escape the shooting, as we were running back, those from the top of the building, they also started shooting at us. They shot one of our friends, and I tried to help him, and that's where I got shot too, while trying to help him.

MR DORFLING: Can you again just describe in detail, you say a friend of yours got shot, did he fall down, did he remain upright?

MR MHLABA: He got shot and he fell, because when I turned back as I was running, I found that he was bleeding from the back and when I tried to tried to remove the jersey to find out where the wound was, that's when I got shot.

MR DORFLING: Can you just describe your own position when you were hit by the bullet, were you at that point in time upright or what was your position?

MR MHLABA: I would say I was kneeling, I was just bending, and he was lying on the ground. I was just to pull up his jersey to see how he was injured, and I got shot at that time and I fell next to him.

MR DORFLING: I saw you actually getting up from your chair, you were bending forward with you upper body, is that right? Were you bending over the injured person?

MR MHLABA: Yes, what do you mean when I was bending forward?

MR DORFLING: You bent your upper body over the man.

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: And you've indicated that this was the time when you were struck by a bullet. Can you please indicate where you were hit?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Yes, where were you hit by the bullet?

MR MHLABA: I was shot here.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: As it pleases the Committee Mr Chair. What happened then Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: The police arrived and they tried to push me to the corner of the intersection. All I could remember seeing, I saw the things and after I fell I didn't see anything except the police coming to come and help us, and they took me into an ambulance.

MR DORFLING: At the time when you got shot, did you carry anything with you?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I was holding a stick, a shield and a spear.

MR DORFLING: Mr Interpreter did the witness the word "uboko" and "induko"?

JUDGE NGCOBO: Sharpened stick.

MR DORFLING: Yes, I would just like your guidance Mr Committee members, I picked up two words "induko" and "uboko".

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: No, I think all the words were right, but I think I've just got one word missing. "Induko" and "uboko".

MR LAX: "Induko" is a stick Mr Dorfling, it's a ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: I'm made to believe that "uboko" is also a stick, just a longer stick. Maybe we can ask the witness.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Mhlaba just repeat, tell us what did you carry on the previous question.

MR MHLABA: I was holding a shield, a "boko", it's a long stick which has a tail. On the other side I was holding a knobkierrie, on the other side there was also a spear.

MR DORFLING: Did you at the time when the shooting started, did you become aware of any firearms being discharged from amongst the group of marchers where you were positioned?

MR MHLABA: I didn't see any firearm among those people in front of me.

MR DORFLING: Did you become aware of anybody discharging a firearm in your vicinity? Amongst the marchers in other words.

MR MHLABA: As I've explained before the Committee, I didn't see anyone holding a firearm. I didn't see anyone with my eyes.

MR LAX: Did you hear anyone firing a firearm around you? I think that's what Mr Dorfling is also trying to ask you.

MR MHLABA: The way this shooting happened, even if there was someone shooting just beside you, you wouldn't be able to detect that because there was a lot of noise.

MS KHAMPEPE: The noise you're talking about, is it the noise of your chanting or was it the noise that was caused by the shooting?

MR MHLABA: This was a noise of the shooting. There were firearm crackings coming from all directions I would say, you couldn't say from which direction the shooting's coming from.

MR DORFLING: And can I just determine from you, immediately prior to the shooting starting, prior to you observing the people in front of you that fired in the direction of the crowd, was there any shooting from amongst the Zulu marchers at that point in time?

MR MHLABA: As I've already explained, the shooting started when Mr Mbatha was telling us we shall now continue as one group. It was when we met the first group to form one group.

MR DORFLING: Was there at that point in time any shooting amongst the marchers, that's what I'm asking?

MR MHLABA: I didn't hear any shooting within us and I didn't see any shooting. I'm not saying there wasn't but I didn't witness such.

MR DORFLING: Now after you got injured that day, did you go to hospital, were you hospitalised for your injury?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I went to hospital. We were told that they can't help us because there were so many people who were so badly injured and we were told that we should wait for medical treatment.

MR DORFLING: And how long were you away from work?

MR MHLABA: I stayed about 3 months without work.

MR DORFLING: Now Mr Mhlaba, if people were to come to this Committee and give evidence that the Zulu people, the marchers, were attacking the building or the personnel of Shell House, the people working there, and that's the reason why the Zulu people got shot at, what would you comment be to that?

MR MHLABA: I will deny that because I personally as a grown-up person, it was a peaceful march and when we got shot we were surprised.

MR DORFLING: I've got no further questions to the witness that you Mr Chair, Members of the Committee.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DORLFLING

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Just one aspect please Mr Chair.

The way in which you moved and which you described to the Committee, is that the normal way that the Zulus move when they go to attend a peaceful meeting?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct, that's our tradition.

MR PRETORIUS: Would it have been any different if you had for instance to war?

MR MHLABA: Yes, there will be striking difference, because when we're going to war we don't even talk to each other, we just walk and there is no chanting or singing, we just proceed.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mhlaba you considered yourself at the time as one of the "Amabuto"?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: And when the amabuto move, do they move with discipline?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Is it the usual way of movement that every group is under charge of an Induna?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct, each group has to have its own leader or Induna. Even if it's not the Induna himself, there will be the assistant Induna.

MR TIPP: And the senior Induna in this case, Mr Mbatha, would see to it that each group was under the charge of a responsible Induna or someone else appointed to be in control?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: You know of course of Induna Kanyele?

MR MHLABA: Yes I know.

MR TIPP: Did you see him on that morning when the groups were forming up Park Station?

MR MHLABA: I didn't see him because those who were in front of us, we couldn't see them. We couldn't see, those were really in front of the first group because we could only see the people from the back on the first group.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba, I'm talking about your group. Is it not so that Induna Kanyele was in charge of the second group that morning?

MR MHLABA: As I've explained, when we went out of Park Station in numbers, the one who was our leader - I wouldn't say we have a real leader, there were however marshals, and the person that I remember seeing in front of us was Mr Mbatha, and I didn't see Kanyele.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba these groups were large in number, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: In each of them there were several hundred members?

MR MHLABA: Yes I would say that's correct, even if I won't be able to give a specific number, be we were more than hundred.

MR TIPP: I'm not asking you for specific numbers. Now ahead of you there was a large group, and at the head of that there was the senior Induna, Mr Mbatha.

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct.

MR TIPP: Now I understood you to say a little while ago that the usual way of movement is that each and every group has someone appointed to be in charge and in control of that group.

MR MHLABA: My word is when we are going to a function we're normally accompanied by an Induna and the Induna has his own marshals who will control the crowd to make sure that they don't do things which are out our objectives, and as we march any member who is a little bit senior will always be in charge of controlling the marchers. It's not necessarily the Induna's who will always be conducting the crowd.

MR TIPP: Just tell us, was there a person in charge of your group?

MR MHLABA: I would say he was a person just like me, he was not an Induna just a respected member, so he was well versed when it comes to conducting those marches.

JUDGE NGCOBO: I think you've talked about - see what counsel is trying to find out from you is that there was the first group which was ahead of you and which was being led by Induna Mbatha.

MR MHLABA: That's correct.

JUDGE NGCOBO: And then there was this second one in which you were, was coming from behind, and you said there were people who had been the Induna?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Was there any person who was acting as a leading who was walking in front of you?

MR MHLABA: I will say there was no-one who was acting as the leader, we were moving just as a group following the front group.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Was Kanyele among the leaders?

MR MHLABA: Yes he was present, I would say he was one of the people who were acting as marshals directing the crowd.

JUDGE NGCOBO: In which group was he, was he in the second group or the first one?

MR MHLABA: I would say he was conducting part of our group, but he was not concentrating on our group, he will go forward and go back to see that we are proceeding accordingly. As he was patrolling there was another person on the other side controlling the crowd.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba is it correct that you are expected when you move in these groups, to remain in your groups, and that if for example the group at the front stops for some reason, then the second group will also stop, it doesn't simply proceed?

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct.

MR TIPP: Now where in your group were you, were you at the front or in the middle somewhere, or towards the back?

MR MHLABA: I would say I was in the middle, just in the middle, but I was not far from the front.

MR TIPP: Yes, is it also so that when groups of this nature move through cities like Johannesburg, that they are required and expected to obey police instructions?

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct. When we walk in the city we'll have to follow the directions given by the police because we have a route which we have to follow.

MR TIPP: Well apart from the fact that you've got a route, is it something that is conveyed to you by your leaders, by your Induna's that if a policeman comes to a group with an instruction, that the group must obey him?

MR MHLABA: That's correct, we are usually instructed that wherever we go we shall follow the law and we shall listen to the law officers, and we shall listen to anyone who has authority to direct us to whatever place we are going to.

MR TIPP: So for example if you are moving with a group of "amabutu" and two policemen were to approach from the front and raise their hands and make it clear that you should stop, then you would normally stop?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct, we have to stop. We have to stop and listen to what they want to say to us.

MR TIPP: Now Mr Mhlaba, if you were in the second group, and in the middle of the second group, were you still in that position when you turned - you took the right turn into the street where eventually the shooting took place?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question.

MR TIPP: Certainly. Let me take it in pieces, Mr Chairman. You've told us that you were somewhere in the middle of your group, not very far from the front, were you still in that position after you had taken the right turn into the street where the shooting took place?

MR MHLABA: I would say after getting out from the Park Station I wasn't far to the front. We took a turn to join the other group ...

MR TIPP: My question Mr Mhlaba, is whether you were still in that same position in your group after you had taken the turn, can you tell us?

MR MHLABA: Yes I was still in the same position.

MR TIPP: You then saw the front group come to a stop?

MR MHLABA: Yes, they were already standing.

MR TIPP: Now was this something that was arranged, that you would then joint them and form one group?

MR MHLABA: I would say this was not arranged, but we just saw Mr Mbatha stopping there and calling the second group to join them, that's how we came to meet with them.

MR TIPP: Can you just describe that for us in detail? Mr Mbatha was in the front of a large group that was in the front of your group, did you in fact see him give instructions that you were all to form one group?

MR MHLABA: I didn't hear him personally speaking, as we were far behind. I will try to demonstrate - that's how we come to a stop and wait for others. We normally kneel and wait for the others. As we saw them in that position, we signalled that they were stopping. I could see that he was calling us by his hand.

MR TIPP: So you personally saw quite clearly that the senior Induna, Mr Mbatha, was calling your group to merge with his group to form one larger group just in front of that intersection, is that what you're saying?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MR TIPP: What did you understand the reason for this merger to be?

MR MHLABA: I didn't know what was the problem, I thought maybe he wanted to make sure that we stay as one group. And we didn't know exactly - most of us didn't know where we were going, he was the only man who knew where we were going, so he wanted to make sure that we proceeded together as one group.

MR TIPP: Well up to that point there'd been no problems in the movement of the two groups as they went along the street, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: After the meeting of the groups Mr Mbatha instructed us to proceed, and that's where the shooting started.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I think perhaps my question was not clearly formulated, I'm going to put it again. As you moved in at least two groups from Park Station up to the point of that intersection, there had been no difficulties or problems with the movement in separate groups?

MR MHLABA: Yes, there were no problems.

MR TIPP: And I take it that the reason for breaking into smaller groups in the way that you did at Park Station as you moved through streets, is because it's easier to maintain control.

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: See I'm going to suggest to you that this unusual development under the instructions of your senior Induna, that you form into one large group at this intersection, was so that you would form one large group for the purpose of carrying out an attack, and not for the purpose of moving further in the streets in the normal way.

MR MHLABA: I would like to with respect, deny that. It wasn't for the purpose of shooting because if it was the case of ...(indistinct) where we have to attack, we wouldn't put women in front. When we - our tradition is that when we go to fight, we normally put the men in front, and it would be men only, with women not involved.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I am regrettably not very well versed in Zulu tradition and Zulu culture, but perhaps you can tell us, "amandla aweto", are you saying that that forms part of a Zulu traditional praise song or praise chant?

MR MHLABA: I would say, put it clearly, any person, they don't have to be a Zulu-speaking person, people normally shout "amandla aweto", meaning power to us. This has originated from the Zulu tradition, so I would say that's the reason why we were shouting "power to us" and "we will win as one".

MR TIPP: And the cry or the chant "usotho" is, as I understand it, typically a battle-cry, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: That's not true. "Usotho" goes to explain that we are the Zulu nation. As you know, there is "mangosotho", it's a tradition that we are following as Zulu people.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba, isn't it so that when traditionally and historically that when Zulu warriors went to war, that the typical battle-cry that accompanies them as an expression of their pride and their military prowess, was "usotho"?

MR MHLABA: I did not understand your word, you're talking about the soldiers of Kwa-Zulu, or the warriors or Kwa-Zulu?

MR TIPP: I'm speaking as best I can in historical and traditional terms of Zulu warriors, and that when Zulu warriors went to war, "usotho" would be their principal chant expressing their pride and their military strength as they attacked.

MR MHLABA: I never heard that when going to war the warriors would be singing songs or chanting slogans. I know that people prepare for the war and nobody will instruct them to be singing when going to war, because that would show the directions as to where they are from their opponents if they start singing.

MR TIPP: We'll move on Mr Mhlaba from that. You have described how your group on instructions from Induna Mbatha merged with the group in front, did you also see a group which was in the street on your right-hand side? In other words to the right of that very same intersection?

MR MHLABA: I would say the only group that we met was the group in front us. I didn't see any group on the other side, I only saw one group, the one which was in front of us which we came to form one group.

MR TIPP: Just describe for us please, the process of forming one group, did you for example - or did your group simply merge at the back of the front group, or did you push your way through the front group to the front of it, what exactly happened there?

MR MHLABA: Those in front, as I've already demonstrated, the Induna have stopped them and he signalled by hand, telling us to come closer. While they were kneeling there we came near, and then we came to join them and we were told to stand up and proceed. That's what we did, and we continued as one group.

MR TIPP: Let me just put it in these words Mr Mhlaba, is what you are describing then a process where the gap between the back of the first group and the front of the second group, your group, was done away with, and that's all that happened?

MR MHLABA: Yes, we formed one group.

MR TIPP: Well is my description of it correct?

MR MHLABA: As I've already explained, that's how we met and formed one group.

MR TIPP: So you were never near the front of what had been the first group?

MR MHLABA: Yes I wasn't in front, as I've explained before, I was - in the second group I was just in the middle near to the front. Even when we managed to form one group, I was still in the middle of the one group. When we joined them we were from behind. I wouldn't be able to say how far from behind or from the front - I wouldn't be able to say who was in front and who was at the back at that time.

MR TIPP: I'm not sure what you mean by that Mr Mhlaba. Can I just put it to you again. In front of you there was a group with many hundred-strong under the charge of Induna Mbatha. Behind that there was a second group, you were in that group. As you approached the intersection, the front group was stopped and Induna Mbatha said become one group, and the front of your group went up to the back of the first group. Is that what happened?

MR MHLABA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And were you still on the - you yourself had not yet reached the intersection?

MR MHLABA: I would say even the other group, they haven't yet reached the intersection, we were all about to reach. When we came into the intersection we were now proceeding as one group.

MR TIPP: To be clear about that, the front of the first group had not yet reached the intersection at that stage, the stage when you became one group?

MR MHLABA: Yes they were not yet at the intersection, they were just near the intersection. They were just before the robot, they were not yet into the intersection, they were about to enter the intersection.

MR TIPP: Could you perhaps indicate to us here how far you were at that time from the front of the first group? In other words the very front of the now combined group.

MR MHLABA: Are you talking about the second group, how far we were, or you mean all of us combined as one group?

MR TIPP: You've told us that you became one group, correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Now all I want is for you to indicate where you personally were, how far were you from the front of the group? In other words the front of what had been the first group. Do you follow?

MR MHLABA: Ja. I will estimate the distance as it - I will from the Interpreter, the lady Interpreter, it will be distance from where I am to the Interpreter, the lady Interpreter.

MR TIPP: About 20 metres Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's about 20 metres.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba, we know that in that intersection there was a white man with long hair, a tall man, who circled in that intersection, calling on the marchers to stop. Did you see that person?

MR MHLABA: I didn't see the person.

MR TIPP: We know that his efforts were unsuccessful and that he was overrun when the group advanced and was in fact struck a number of times and injured. Did you notice anything of that sort happening?

MR MHLABA: As I said, I didn't see any person getting injured. I don't know, maybe one of those who were in front will have seen that, but myself as a person in the middle of the group, I didn't see anybody.

MR TIPP: You say that your group was just moving forward, or the entire group was just moving forward slowly and very peacefully?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Did you see two uniformed policemen approach the front of that group in a clear attempt to stop it and to divert it?

MR MHLABA: Where were these police standing?

MR TIPP: They came from the direction in which you were heading, straight towards the front of the group with their arms outstretched, calling on them to turn away and making it clear that they shouldn't proceed further down that street.

MR MHLABA: I didn't see them.

MR TIPP: Well they have given evidence, they have explained that they were knocked aside by this group, one of them was injured as a result of being struck with a spear.

MR MHLABA: I would not deny that, but what I know is we were told that the police were there to protect us. I don't think all this happened, it might have happened another day where I was not present. It's possible that when you're in the middle of a group you might not be able to see what happens on the other side of the group.

MR TIPP: You see I'm putting it to you that those are not disputed descriptions of what happened, and I want you to explain as far as you can, how it can be that such incidents take place in respect of a group that you say is moving slowly and peacefully.

MR MHLABA: I am also asking the same question as to why were we attacked, because we were peaceful, no-one was provoking any person. And I'm asking the same question, why were we attacked, because I didn't see any problem amongst us as we were marching.

MR TIPP: Do you want me to repeat the question Mr Mhlaba, because I'm not asking you to ask questions, I'm asking you to answer them.

MR MHLABA: You can ask the question.

MR TIPP: Yes well let me put it again, and I'll put it more clearly. The white gentleman that I've referred to has given evidence, or evidence has been accepted given by him under oath, that he was beaten by members of the group in which you were moving who were charging forward waving weapons in the manner of people carrying out an attack. That evidence was given in the inquest, it was not challenged and it has been accepted here. Now what do you say about that?

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect, I do not want to interrupt unnecessarily Mr Chair, but the interpretation of Mr von Eggedy as to the movement of the crowd was specifically canvassed at the time of the inquest with him, and there was also specific interpretation given to that evidence by Mr Justice Nugent in his judgement. And I think if I recall correctly, specifically at page 137, in which Mr Justice Nugent made it quite clear that Mr von Eggedy's interpretation and the way he defined the movements was perhaps not that accurate, and to that extent that evidence is not accepted.

CHAIRPERSON: You can put what the evidence of Mr von Eggedy was, whether it was accepted by the inquest court or not.

MR TIPP: Yes, we'll deal with that in argument. I'll put it on that basis Mr Chairman.

Evidence was given by him that the crowd ignored his attempts to stop them, that they charged forward in the manner of people carrying out an attack, waving weapons, in the course of which he received a number of deliberate blows and was injured. Now you were in that crowd, what do you say about that evidence?

MR MHLABA: I personally I was with the group. I didn't see this white policeman getting injured from the position in which I was moving. I won't be able to know, maybe on the other of the group he might have.

JUDGE NGCOBO: From the position in which you were in this group, could you see the front of the group after the two groups had merged?

MR MHLABA: Yes, before we formed one group I could see the front but after the merging of the two groups I couldn't see what was happening in front.

JUDGE NGCOBO: The lawyer is telling you that there was evidence given that there was a white man who came to stand before the united, the one group which was formed, he was trying to give them instructions but however he got injured, he was attacked. He's saying the police also came to try to stop the group and you disobeyed them, is that true?

MR MHLABA: I would say I can hear what you're saying.

JUDGE NGCOBO: When you say this group was proceeding peacefully and that some of the instructions given to you was that to follow people who were in authority, this means the policemen, how did it happen that this kind of incident could take place?

MR MHLABA: I would say that from my position as I was marching within the group, I didn't see any conflict or any problem as we were marching. I only met the problem when we started getting shot or one of us was injured.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, we do accept that you didn't see these things happening, however the lawyer wants to find out that when you say you were marching peacefully and you were listening to instructions from police, why was one of the policemen who was trying to stop you, you didn't obey them and one of them got injured?

MR MHLABA: I will have an answer to that, I will say I was not in front but from my own knowledge from the time when we were deployed we were told to go to the meeting, we were told that we should co-operate with the police. However I'm not going to deny that any police was injured while marching.

MR TIPP: Can we just sum up what you're in a position to say Mr Mhlaba, that you were never really in a position to observe what was happening in the front of the group or what people there were doing, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes that's correct, that's what I'm saying.

MR TIPP: Can you tell us in relation to the intersection, where were you when you tried to help your colleague who had fallen and when you got injured yourself, when you were struck?

MR MHLABA: It was right at the intersection, because this brother of mine fell on one side next to a pavement just after passing the crossing street and that's where I also fell after I was shot.

MR TIPP: So you personally had gone right across the intersection, do I understand you correctly?

MR MHLABA: Yes, we were already across the street, because after meeting this first group and we formed one group we are about to cross the intersection and few people managed to cross the intersection, the others were still at the back and they turned and ran back and we all dived on the ground and those who were able to run, they ran away.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I'm going to ask you please just to take it slowly, I'll try and put my questions as simply as I can. Were you personally across that intersection when you were struck, or had you not yet gone right across the intersection?

MR MHLABA: I had already crossed the intersection, I had just finished crossing the street, I was on the other side of the street.

MR TIPP: Now I take it, I would imagine that you've been back to that scene since the event?

MR MHLABA: I would say I don't usually come to town. Since I got injured I'm staying at home in the township. I don't come to town that often and if I come to town I only come to the Commission and even today, that was the only time I'm coming here. I'm also afraid to go towards that direction.

MR TIPP: Let me just make it clear, even for the purpose of preparing this statement that has been put in by you in this Commission, you didn't go back to the scene to look at street names or to point out where you had been at various stages of the events?

MR MHLABA: As I've said, I can only describe as I'm sitting here as to how we moved during that day. After as I proceeding, jumping the first street ...(intervention)

MS KHAMPEPE: Sorry, you're not answering the question, the question put to you was, as you are here now, did you get any chance to meet with your lawyers in preparation to give the evidence you are giving before the Commission? Did you get a chance to go and see the scene where these things occurred?

MR MHLABA: I did meet my lawyers as I'm here today, however we never went to that place.

MR TIPP: So you're still not able to assist us just with references to street names or anything like that?

MR MHLABA: Yes I don't know the name of the streets.

MR TIPP: You had crossed over the intersection, does that mean then that all the people who had been in front of you had gone into the street past the intersection?

MR MHLABA: Yes those who were in front of me, they've already crossed the street, and those from behind, they were still on the other side, they haven't yet crossed. It means only half the people who were in front managed to cross the street when the shooting started.

MR TIPP: And the portion of the street we're talking about is now the street right next to the building where you saw some people on the - I think you called it the roof, on the balcony, who were among those who fired shots?

MR MHLABA: Yes, it is the one that passed next to the building on this hand. It's on the other side of the building ...(as he's demonstrating, can't get a clear picture).

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I'm sorry, you're doing all sorts of pointing out on the table, I'm afraid it's not assisting anybody here. Mr Chairman I wonder, we'll put up a map and - a street-plan, I wonder if it might be an opportune moment, and we'll then continue on hopefully a clearer base.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman may I just indicate at this time, I went through the exercise of trying to plot the witness by way of a map, it's gonna be of no assistance to the Committee, it's gonna ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

BAFANA GONZWEIZA MHLABA: (s.u.o.)

MR MHLABA: I've already explained before that I never even went to school. As it has already been displayed, I'm lost, I don't even know where to start.

MR TIPP: Has it ever been discussed with you what the name was of the building where this incident took place?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Have you been told that it was Shell House?

MR MHLABA: Yes they did tell me that it's Shell House building.

MR TIPP: Yes alright, well let me just make an attempt, Mr Chairman we're not going to attempt unduly, if I can just ask my colleague to just point out where Shell House is, and to point out the portion of King George Street just to the left of it. Now I'm going to ask you Mr Mhlaba, are you able to follow that the street next to that building? The building has been coloured green, and there's a street that has been pointed out to you running next to it, can you follow that?

MR MHLABA: I can't see the street which we are using. I don't know from the Park Station where we could be from the map. From the Park Station, yes we proceeded from Park Station. Which building are you talking about, is it this one? When we're there we were coming from that direction and the first group was standing there. We formed one group on that point and we proceeded down up and that's where they started shooting at us and the other person fell on that point.

MR TIPP: Well that's very helpful Mr Mhlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: You are going to - if all that means anything at all ...(inaudible)

MR TIPP: I'm going to.

CHAIRPERSON: As he points, will somebody read out the name of the streets or the roads that he's pointing at.

MR TIPP: Yes, let me try to summarise what has been pointed out. Mr Mhlaba has shown the direction from which they moved down King George Street from a northerly side towards a southern side. He has identified the intersection of King George Street and De Villiers Street, and has pointed to a position just to the south of that intersection in the portion of King George Street adjacent to Shell House where he was when he was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that it?

MR DORFLING: That's correct.

MR TIPP: My learned friends it?

MR DORFLING: I confirm.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, thank you.

MR TIPP: Thank you. So just to round off this point then, the point that you've just showed to the Committee where you were, it means that many hundreds of marchers were in front of you further to the south of King George Street along Shell House. I'm going to ask my colleague Mr Berger just to indicate the area and you can confirm.

So in that portion of the street there were hundreds of people, hundreds of marchers in front of you?

MR MHLABA: Yes, as we were crossing up - after crossing the street there were not many of them, but that's where the shooting occurred. The other one fell right at the corner.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR TIPP: The shooting in the general vicinity of the corner of King George and De Villiers, in that general vicinity, is that right Mr Mhlaba?

MR DORFLING: I confirm that that is what the witness pointed out physically on the map.

MR TIPP: Yes, that's in order.

Mr Mhlaba you've said already in your evidence earlier, you were asked whether there'd been any shooting from amongst the marchers, you say you didn't hear or see it but you can't say that there wasn't such shooting, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I said so. I didn't see anything, I will not deny what might have happened right in front of me as there was this large sounds of cracking guns. I didn't know where they were coming from.

MR TIPP: Well let me put it, there was shooting from all around you, from all directions I think your phrase was, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: No I'm not saying that, I am saying that due to the sound of the firearms which were fired I couldn't tell where the sound was coming from but where the shooting started, it was the people who were on the ground who started shooting and then thereafter the people on top of the building started shooting.

MR TIPP: Well I'm just going to put to you in conclusion, that there's evidence and the witnesses from the ANC say that shots had been fired from amongst your crowd before they fired, and that they fired because there was a charge, an attack on them.

MR MHLABA: Why were we attacking them, if they say we were?

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman I don't propose to debate the matter, that completes our questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DORFLING: Just one aspect Mr Chair with your leave. Mr Mhlaba had you prior to this day taken part in any Zulu marches?

MR MHLABA: Yes it was not my first march with the Zulu marchers.

MR DORFLING: And had you subsequent to this day taken part in any Zulu marches?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: I've got no further questions thank you Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DORFLING

JUDGE NGCOBO: It was put to you that you gathered at the point where you say you did so that you can attack Shell House, and you denied that?

MR MHLABA: Yes, we didn't mean to attack.

JUDGE NGCOBO: You then mentioned that there were women in the group.

MR MHLABA: Yes they were with us.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Were there any women in front, as far as you can recall?

MR MHLABA: I would say amongst all the groups since we are just mixed, there were women in our group and even after we formed one group there were women.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mhlaba, you have stated that you were in the middle of the second group and Mr Tipp has tried to ascertain exactly where you were once the two groups had merged. I just want you to estimate, probably by pointing if you can, from where you are to any part of this room, if you can, to show us exactly where you were by the time the two groups had merged. I do understand that you were right at the back but I would like to just get a mental picture of exactly where you were once the two groups had merged.

MR LAX: Sorry, in relation to what, if I could just add that?

MS KHAMPEPE: Once you came to the second group, where exactly were you before you started doing anything, before you started moving?

MR MHLABA: As I've explained before, when we came to meet the first group I would say from the female interpreter, that's the distance from where I am, I personally as a person who was in the second group from behind, I would say it will have been a distance from here to the interpreter's box.

MS KHAMPEPE: This first group, if you can estimate as to how far it was, what distance will you give from where you are sitting, how far was it from you?

MR MHLABA: You mean in respect to the second group?

MS KHAMPEPE: I mean at the time when you joined the first group to form one. You said when you arrived, Mbatha has already stopped them so that they can unite with you to form one group.

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: At that time, you said that you were about the distance from where you are to the interpreter.

MR MHLABA: I will say no, in the first group it will be from where I am, just from - if they were starting from here ...(witness is demonstrating) and ...

MS KHAMPEPE: In your evidence, if that is true, it will mean that you were not able, you're not in a position to see what's happening in front?

MR MHLABA: Yes, as I've already stated I'm not sure of what happened inside.

MS KHAMPEPE: And again you wont be in a position to see what Mbatha was doing in front of the group?

MR MHLABA: Yes I would be lying to say I know.

MS KHAMPEPE: And again you are not in a position to say that the people who were in front of the one group, they were people who were marching peacefully or otherwise?

MR MHLABA: No I can comment on that one, if they were doing something out of our mandate you could see, because you could see that. However, unless if someone went out of the group and do something aside.

MS KHAMPEPE: You mean beside getting out of group, you won't be able to know what was happening in front?

MR MHLABA: Yes I won't be able to see exactly what the people in front did.

MR MHLABA: As you communicated through shouting?

MR MHLABA: Yes that was the case.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mr Mbatha told you that there was going to be a meeting on the 28th, was that an order, or was that merely a request?

MR MHLABA: It was a request because we were requested by the King to listen to his wishes and also the things that were requested from the Pretoria, the Government, and we wanted to find out as to how - what came out from the meetings in Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't go to work on that day?

MR MHLABA: Yes I didn't go to work on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you feel that you were compelled to attend this meeting?

MR MHLABA: I wasn't compelled because being compelled, it means someone have to tell you to do something that you wouldn't like to do. However, I also wish that I'll become part of what the King was going to say.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand. Did you pay your own trainfare or was that paid for you by somebody else?

MR MHLABA: I won't know exactly who paid. We were told by the leaders or the Indunas that we will travel by train, we didn't know who was supposed to pay for the fare.

MS KHAMPEPE: To your own knowledge Mr Mhlaba, it is true that all the people who were getting into the train, they didn't pay for themselves?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. Are there any further questions you wish to put?

MR DORFLING: There's no questions that arise from the Committee's questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Good, thank you very much. Yes thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well now as I understand the position there are going to be no further witnesses in this matter.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair I would like to indicate that on behalf of the objectors for whom I appear there are no further witnesses. I've also been requested by Ms van der Westhuizen who is not present, to also indicate that on her behalf there's no further witnesses to be called by the objectors.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, as I've indicated yesterday, we've got no further witnesses to call. However, as I've also indicated yesterday, that there is a number, it's only four pages of the ballistic expert evidence which I wish to hand up to the Honourable Chairman and Honourable Members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR PRETORIUS: Unfortunately the memo that I drafted had not been typed by the time we left this morning. However, I would only like then to point out that the three or four major things appearing in this four pages for the benefit of the Committee. The first is that on page 7267 from line 20 to the bottom thereof, it appears that the witness testified that 38 AK47 shots were fired from the south-western corner of Shell House.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: The second is, which has already been canvassed and accepted by the applicants, that no shots were fired in the direction of the south-western corner of Shell House. That appears on 7268 from approximately line 19 to the bottom thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRETORIUS: And the third thing that appears on page 7269 from the top of the page up to approximately line 15, is that no shots were fired from the position where the people laid down that was injured at the corner there. There were no shots fired from that position. You referred to the sketch-plan which was already handed it, it will be noted that the blue circle from where the firing took place was actually not from that particular corner but in the middle of the street some distance away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.

MR PRETORIUS: Then we've go no further questions, I have no further witnesses to call Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Off-hand I can't recall what Exhibit this report, the ballistics report is. Is there anybody who remembers?

MR LAX: It's part of one of the "C's" under "B".

CHAIRPERSON: We'll just have to find - just in case we don't let this be Exhibit F. Yes, thank you very much.

MR DORFLING: I think we can just mark it Exhibit F, maybe that would be ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, this will go in as Exhibit F.

MR BERGER: Chairperson just for the record, and I'm not going to burden the Committee now with a ballistics argument, we don't agree with some of the submissions, in particular the final submission made by my learned friend about the circle, but we will deal with it in argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, quite understandably. He's giving you the purpose for which these pages are being handed to us from his point of view. We understand, thank you.

Now I think we should finalise one or two things, and that is we would welcome comprehensive written argument from counsel involved in this matter and as I have indicated earlier this morning, because of the burden that this Committee carries, we would appreciate it if that is done within 10 days from today. May I suggest that you please don't wait until you get the transcript of the remainder of the evidence, you can start doing your work, you know, now as it where, and in the hope that you'd be able to finish and let us have your heads within 10 days. Mr Tipp that's quite clear isn't it?

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman that's perfectly clear and we will ensure that our heads are completed within that period. It may be that once we receive the responses from our learned friends, that we may need to file a short reply. If that is necessary we will attend to it with every dispatch.

CHAIRPERSON: Well one advantage about making your heads available or interchanging heads, is that it can only make the work of the Commission that much easier, and it will be of greater assistance to us once we have considered the replies, if there are any need for replies.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, may I similarly indicate the moment Mr Tipp and his team's argument is available, I would perhaps also like to comment on certain submissions made there and similarly I've agreed with Mr Tipp the moment his have become available I'll supplement the heads that have already been done by that time with whatever argument needs to be presented.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR PRETORIUS: A similar arrangement has been made between me and Mr Tipp as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, from a logistics point of view, my attorney of record has just asked me to make sure that we dispatch it to the right address, is it going to the Cape Town address or where is it supposed to be going?

CHAIRPERSON: No the administration of the Amnesty Committee is in Cape Town and it should go to the Executive Secretary of the Amnesty Committee please.

MR DORFLING: I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. It remains for me to thank all of you for having assisted us with this inquiry. Things have moved much more smoothly than they might otherwise have. Thank you very much. I come to the conclusion of these hearings and we adjourn.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS