TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 18 & 19TH JUNE 1998

NAME: ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE

APPLICATION NO: AM6478/97

DAY: 2 & 3

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MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, in Bundle A, I call the 7th applicant, Mr Abraham Christoffel Fourie and I see there in the index it's incorrect, it shows there that A.C. Vlok's application appears on page 118 to 137, it must be Mr Fourie's application. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Fourie you are an applicant in this matter and you were also found guilty by the court on all the charges except for the theft of the vehicle?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what sentence did you get?

MR FOURIE: 21 Years effectively.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you are currently out on bail pending your appeal?

MR FOURIE: That is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: Since when have you been out on bail?

MR FOURIE: I do not know or I cannot recall the date.

MS VAN DER WALT: I think it is October last year.

MR FOURIE: Yes I think so, I'm not sure of the date.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Fourie on 18 December you were born in Ladysmith in Natal. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in your parents house, did you support any particular political party?

MR FOURIE: My father was a Nationalist who at that stage followed Dr Verwoerd's policy.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you yourself did you belong to any political party?

MR FOURIE: I firstly supported the HNP and I grew up in a very conservative environment.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you receive any military training?

MR FOURIE: Yes I did.

MS VAN DER WALT: And during your military training were you given instructions to fight a certain enemy?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct. The enemy was the ANC/SACP alliance and on the border of Angola it was SWAPO.

MS VAN DER WALT: You served for 12 years in the Defence Force?

MR FOURIE: That is correct and it was voluntary.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you attend any right-wing meetings?

MR FOURIE: All the meetings that I heard of I did attend. Amongst others, most of them were the AWB meetings which I joined in 1977.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you attend most of the AWB meetings?

MR FOURIE: I saw them as the true mouthpiece of the Afrikaner Boer who support the interests of the Boere.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know what their ideologies were and did you believe in them?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie can you give us a definition of an Afrikaner Boer. Who is an Afrikaner Boer?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson the way I understood it was it was a person who thinks the way I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but what is that?

MR FOURIE: You believe in self determination, everybody is his own piece of land where he is governed by his own people who are of the same culture and who understand and know this culture.

CHAIRPERSON: Are these Afrikaans people who live on farms?

MR FOURIE: No I don't think so.

CHAIRPERSON: How does the Boer part fit in?

MR FOURIE: That is the man who believes that everybody together believes in self determination being governed by his own people who understand him.

CHAIRPERSON: So the Afrikaner Boer is a name that certain people give to themselves?

MR FOURIE: Yes that's correct Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that you believed in the ideology of the AWB, what is the ideology of the AWB precisely?

MR FOURIE: It is self determination, that you be governed by your own people in order to prevent conflict because of this reason because you understand the culture and the interests of these people to put it in short.

CHAIRPERSON: To prevent what type of conflict?

MR FOURIE: If you govern another person and you do not understand him there could be certain disputes. You do not understand his culture, you do not understand the way in which he believes and there could be certain conflict.

MS VAN DER WALT: You attended various AWB meetings, how did you feel about the National Party at that stage?

MR FOURIE: I felt that the National Party cannot keep up or stand for what Dr Verwoerd stood in the past and the way he created a living for us and that they would not be able to retain their power and that they will have to give it over at some stage to the ANC and SACP alliance.

MS VAN DER WALT: After you joined the AWB did you go through any courses?

MR FOURIE: Yes I took it very seriously and because I was blessed with a healthy life and had the experience of self protection, I took it seriously to such an extent that I obtained a Boere identity book to be part of the Boerevolk. I attended courses and I trained people and I saw that many of our people were qualified for the struggle that lies ahead, as was announced from the stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie you talked about an identity document. What type of identity document was this?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I brought it with me in order for me to prove that it is a Boere identity document. It also has an identity photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does this come from?

MR FOURIE: A long time ago we were told that the day when we have a Volkstaat you will only be able to be acknowledged in this Volkstaat if you have an identity document to prove that you are part of the Boerevolk and then I obtained one. It was issued by - he was also a TV actor, him and his wife. I cannot remember his surname, he had glasses with a goatee beard. He was also present at right-wing meetings. I will probably remember his name later.

CHAIRPERSON: If you remember it will you please inform us.

MR FOURIE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not realise that it's illegal to have another identity document?

MR FOURIE: I believed that if it was illegal they wouldn't have issued it. I even went to the South African Police and took my marriage certificate and driver's licence, I asked them to put a stamp on it.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a photocopy of the original?

MR FOURIE: No, if I know that there's an SAP stamp in it then it will be accepted.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson that was or the date is '91, the 27th of the 12th month 1991 it was stamped.

CHAIRPERSON: And did the policeman stamp it?

MR FOURIE: Yes he did.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was this identity document issued by the AWB?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson this person spoke at a meeting, I will remember his surname later one, and then we filled in forms or various people did it in order to obtain such a document and I see on top of the book it says: "Boerevolk".

CHAIRPERSON: Who would take note of it in this Boere State where you would have used it?

MR FOURIE: No I did not go into it like that, my interest was that I obtained this identity document.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you accept that the government of that Boere State, if you decided to go in there, will take note of it?

MR FOURIE: Precisely so, yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Fourie, just in passing, I see that you say that when you were 15 years old you started working. What standard have you got?

MR FOURIE: I left school in Standard 7.

MS VAN DER WALT: And afterwards did you receive any other training?

MR FOURIE: Only in my work did I receive training to qualify.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you very much.

MS VAN DER WALT: What qualifications did you receive for your work?

MR FOURIE: At that stage I had just turned 16, I left when I was 15 and then I started working in Durban at the railways as an Assistant Track Master, as they called it Track Engineer Assistant.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you qualify in any trade?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I went over to the truck and passenger section, that's where I worked myself up in the 14 1/2 years that I was there and I became a higher ranking official.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that you attended certain courses and you also gave training and that you saw it in a very serious light. What type of courses did you undergo and what training did you give?

MR FOURIE: Firstly it was about the training of people and the security of the leader, the protection of the Generals in staff.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are you now talking about the leader, is that Eugene Terreblanche?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is.

MS VAN DER WALT: And any other training that you provided?

MR FOURIE: Through that we also trained the people in the handling of weapons, self protection in case they would be attacked in their homes.

MS VAN DER WALT: The training that you received or the courses that you attended, did this entail any military training?

MR FOURIE: Yes it was extended, the further you qualify as a Commandant in the Ystergarde for example.

MS VAN DER WALT: This Ystergarde what exactly is this?

MR FOURIE: We were told that we must do all the security aspects. At the end of the day we have to assist if there is any protection necessary, or how can I put it, we have to act or defend if when there is danger.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was this the elite section of the AWB?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is exactly why I joined them because I believed that it was the elite section and that they were highly disciplined.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, I read in your application that you acted as body guard for Mr Terreblanche at various meetings throughout the country?

MR FOURIE: Yes, when I was asked I did it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you work at that stage?

MR FOURIE: Yes I did work, I did this in my off times.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do at that stage?

MR FOURIE: At that stage I worked at Barlows, the Barlows Group, I was a mechanic.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. If you worked during the day you wouldn't have gone with them?

MR FOURIE: No I would not, but there were times where the work was such that I could ask permission to go.

CHAIRPERSON: From Barlows?

MR FOURIE: Yes, then I would obtain leave and I would go, for example if I was in Johannesburg and he had to fly somewhere I would accompany him to the airport. They did not what it was about, I just asked for leave and would then go with them.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Ystergarde they also had a different uniform to the rest of the AWB members?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: They wore black clothes?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Just to come back to the point regarding the meetings that you attended. What was said at these meetings where you accompanied Terreblanche, what was the message that was conveyed?

MR FOURIE: To make this very short Mr Chairperson, if the previous government would capitulate and hand over power to the ANC we would not stand for it and that the words that Mr Eugene Terreblanche used is that we will only negotiate with the ANC across the barrel of a gun and that we will not give this country and that there will be a war.

CHAIRPERSON: This country that you are referring to, is this the whole of South Africa?

MR FOURIE: That is how I understood it at that stage, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the message that there would only be negotiations across the barrel of a gun, how did you understand that?

MR FOURIE: That nobody would take our country, this is our country that it was bought with the blood of our ancestors and that we will not give it away.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you see it as war?

MR FOURIE: Yes I did.

MS VAN DER WALT: Before the election there were various Western Transvaal towns who had right-wing Town Councils and negotiated with the AWB. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is how I understood it and they handed over the freedom to the AWB and other right-wing parties like the CP.

MS VAN DER WALT: What promises were made regarding work situations in the future Boere Afrikaner Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: As time went by, Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe's words to me were that the Ystergarde would be provided with work, we will do the security aspects for the Mayor of the town and it was told to me that I would work in Klerksdorp as Head of Security and when I asked about my people who would like to do security work as well they said to me that twenty of my people would also be ensured of work.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage where did you live and under which command of the AWB did you live?

MR FOURIE: I am from Johannesburg where I lived on a small holding. I was the Commander of the Vaal Triangle in Johannesburg Offices.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your rank?

MR FOURIE: The rank that I had at that stage was Commandant.

MS VAN DER WALT: During February 1994 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying Commandant?

MR FOURIE: Yes that's true.

ADV GCABASHE: You say you were from Johannesburg, you lived on a smallholding. Where was this?

MR FOURIE: At De Deur.

ADV GCABASHE: De Deur?

MR FOURIE: It's near Meyerton.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes and which period was this?

MR FOURIE: 1993 to 1994.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you know Johannesburg fairly well?

MR FOURIE: No not so well because I came from Natal.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you stay in Johannesburg?

MR FOURIE: I worked for Barlows for 14 years, but I was not a person who travelled around a lot, I was at home most of the time.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were in Johannesburg for 14 years?

MR FOURIE: That's correct yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know the centre of town well?

MR FOURIE: Are you talking about the inner city, no Chairperson I didn't move around a lot in the city centre.

CHAIRPERSON: But during the 14 years didn't you drive around a lot in the city to get to know it?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: During February 1994 there was a gathering at Ventersdorp and it was members of the AWB who gathered together there. At firs there was a chief meeting which was addressed by certain speakers. Were you present?

MR FOURIE: I was part of the protection at Trim Park.

MS VAN DER WALT: And do you know who addressed the meeting?

MR FOURIE: As I moved around Mr Eugene Terreblanche spoke, Mr Manie Maritz he spoke there during the time I was there. Someone else spoke of Dr Hendrik Verwoerd.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was that the Secretary, Mr Olivier?

MR FOURIE: I presume so yes and General Dirk Ackerman also addressed the meeting, General Etsabeth. There were others as well but I didn't hear much of what they said.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie the Dr Verwoerd you are referring to, surely he's not the one who was killed in Parliament?

MR FOURIE: I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: The Dr Verwoerd you are talking about, who was that?

MR FOURIE: No it wasn't Dr Verwoerd himself, I was thinking of Dr Verwoerd, I think it's his son Hendrik Verwoerd.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also made mention of Etsabeth and you said that he also addressed the meeting, what rank did he have?

MR FOURIE: He was a General Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did you understand of the speech he held there?

MR FOURIE: I did not stand at one point and listen but I understood that he spoke about the secession or something like that of the Volkstaat and those type of things.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about the secession, does that mean that the Volkstaat would be introduced by means of secession?

MR FOURIE: That's how I understood it Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: The AWB, after this meeting, was the country divided into different regions?

MR FOURIE: I asked someone why there were so few people and he said that what was happening here was happening all over the country because the country is divided into different regions and everybody must hear what was going on.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also spoke of General Ackerman who during the meeting at Ventersdorp, he was also a speaker, what was the message he conveyed?

MR FOURIE: During that time I was also there when the meeting took place and I heard General Ackerman speaking and he said there's no more time for talk, it's time for war and at one point the leader of the AWB, Mr Eugene Terreblanche, when he spoke he, the officers who were sitting there were screaming war, the people want war and then I heard Terreblanche saying to them do you know what you're talking about ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this now Mr Terreblanche?

MR FOURIE: Yes Terreblanche. And he said I give you 2 weeks, go back to your people and then you come back to me with an answer and tell me what the people want and they shouted the people are tired they want war. That is what it came down to, maybe it is not the exact words, but that is what it came down to and then when General Ackerman spoke he said there's no more time for talking, it's time for war.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now the people who were shouting, you mentioned officers, are those the people you are referring to?

MR FOURIE: Yes that's the way I understood it, it was a closed meeting and an officers meeting and that's why there were only officers.

CHAIRPERSON: When did this meeting take place?

MR FOURIE: First there was an open meeting ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No but there where the people, the Generals as you call them, said that the people want a war, when did that meeting take place?

MR FOURIE: At the Trim Park in Ventersdorp that same day.

CHAIRPERSON: When during the year would that have been?

MR FOURIE: It was in February Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: 1994?

MR FOURIE: Yes 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that the people in Ventersdorp gathered together, as the previous applicant testified, in order to start a war or do I have it wrong?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson as usual we got instructions to go to Ventersdorp to do the security there and when we got there I saw that the majority were officers so it was not the same as the previous meetings in the Town Halls where the general AWB Wen Kommando members were addressed.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the time when everybody went with children, wives and all their belongings to Ventersdorp?

MR FOURIE: No not yet, that was later.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I could just put it on record that if you look at Mr Le Roux's application he does not deal with this specific meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you. I would just like you to try and explain to the Committee that when you said there was a meeting for officers only - you also testified to the extent of an open meeting.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you just clarify those two concepts, you did the security of both these meetings. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you explain?

MR FOURIE: The first meeting as I understood it was concerned with the general aspects of the Volkstaat, secession and a lot of other things, I was not involved the whole time because I had the men under me and I was looking after security. The second one was where the officers were and they spoke about a map where the Volkstaat then would have been, something of that nature.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Fourie the first meeting was that attended by the general public?

MR FOURIE: Yes there was general public present at the first meeting.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was it then at the second meeting that there was talk about the war?

MR FOURIE: Yes about the war.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Fourie was this in a building at the Trim Park or was it in open air?

MR FOURIE: It was a cement platform with a roof.

ADV BOSMAN: So if you did the security, could you hear what was said at the meeting or were you outside the Trim Park?

MR FOURIE: With the closed meeting at the Trim Park I couldn't hear everything when I was moving around in the Trim Park.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the closed meeting?

MR FOURIE: With the closed meeting I couldn't hear everything that was happening, the open meeting there were loudspeakers and if you wanted to listen you could hear what was being said.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you heard what was being said with regard to the war?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know Brigadier Chris Van den Heever?

MR FOURIE: Yes I know him, he was in my area and I was under him when I was in the Wen Kommando and I was Commandant.

MS VAN DER WALT: What type of rank did he have, was it a special type of rank as Brigadier?

MR FOURIE: As we knew he was a fighting Colonel and he served under General Japie Oelofse and he was part of the special task force and he was also an instructor in the special forces where he gave special training to the special members.

MS VAN DER WALT: The fighting General that you just referred to within the AWB, what was his job, did he have special tasks?

MR FOURIE: I do not know what his tasks were because he served under Oelofse, but I know that he - you find people like you say, people who bragged, well he bragged that he was training these people in the special force of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: To do what?

MR FOURIE: Well I believe it was for purposes of war, that type of thing.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you assist the Committee with regard the rank structure of the AWB. The previous witness spoke about the Generals in staff, how did you understand this, what was the structure?

MR FOURIE: I knew that the leader was the head of the AWB then you find the KG ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: What is that?

MR FOURIE: That is the Commandant General in the AWB, it was first Mr Christiaan De Wet, I think he was a former policeman and then later when he wasn't there anymore it was General Cruywagen.

CHAIRPERSON: These Generals you're talking about - I do not know how to put this, but these were AWB Generals they were not normal Generals in the Defence Force?

MR FOURIE: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who took the decision for any actions which were to take place within the AWB?

MR FOURIE: I assume it was the Generals in staff who made the decisions and I am sure they must have received approval from the leader of the AWB which is Eugene Terreblanche.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt can we just finish with the rank structure and just learn the identities of these people?

MS VAN DER WALT: You mentioned the KG, and then?

MR FOURIE: Under the KG or Commandant General you would find normal General. A few of them that I knew was General Oelofse, Dirk Ackerman, General Smit, General Etsabeth and General Nick Fourie and I also think there was another General Faan Fourie, then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And Nico Prinsloo?

MR FOURIE: And General Nico Prinsloo, thank you Chairperson. And then next you would find the Colonels, I didn't know all of them and then you would have the Chief Commandants, you would have the General and then the Colonel ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: You spoke about a Brigadier, did you not perhaps leave out a rank, at a point you spoke about a Brigadier?

MR FOURIE: Yes, the Brigadier.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where does he fit into it ...(inaudible) Generals, who are under them the Colonels?

MR FOURIE: Under the General you find a Colonel but later, the Brigadier was first the fighting Colonel, Chris Van den Heever then I saw that he became a Brigadier.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would he have fitting in to it?

MR FOURIE: He fitted in somewhere, I think Brigadier is automatically higher than a Colonel.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MS VAN DER WALT: Okay you got to the rank of Colonel, then do you find your Head Commandants or Chief Commandants ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just interrupt you there for a second. There are several Generals and now you said the Brigadier would come after the Generals and then Colonel, were there different Colonels who acted in different regions in the country?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I left the Wen Kommando when these things were changing, that's when that came into place that the General had a Colonel underneath him and the only Brigadier in the Wen Kommando that I knew of was Brigadier Chris Van den Heever. I suspect because he founded the special forces, that's why he was in that Division.

You would then find the Colonel, under the Colonel you would find 4 Chief Commandants and that's depending on the regions. There would be four regions and each region would have a Chief Commandant. Next you would find your normal Commandant, under your normal Commandant you will find the Veld Cornet and then a Corporal and then a Deputy Corporal and then the normal members.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that you left the Wen Kommando, is that when you went to the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: No I served in both, but then I left the Witwatersrand to the Vaal Triangle.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now the Ystergarde, did they have their own structure?

MR FOURIE: Yes the Ystergarde had their own structure because they served directly under the leadership of Eugene Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: So if an instruction was given to the Ystergarde would it have come from Eugene Terreblanche?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: There was evidence of a Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe, do you know what his position was?

MR FOURIE: Under the leader Eugene Terreblanche you would find the Brigadier of the Ystergarde and under him you would have the Colonel, but none of us knew who the Colonel was. There was some secrecy there from the conclusion I made, between the Brigadier there was a gap and then there was the Commandants of the Ystergarde and I was one of them.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now this Colonel of the Ystergarde, amongst yourselves did you discuss or guess who this person might be?

MR FOURIE: We often suspected that it was Cliffie Barnard because he worked so closely with the leader and he did a lot of things we did not know about.

MS VAN DER WALT: And these many things that he did, is this with regards to the AWB?

MR FOURIE: Yes with regards to the AWB movement.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was he also involved with head office?

MR FOURIE: He worked in the head office, yes. He never wore a uniform so we did not know.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Just for clarity you have your Brigadier, Colonel, Commandant and then the members in the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson then you get the Captains underneath whom, underneath the Commandant - I'm sorry, no I'm sorry I have to rectify, you get your Major under the Commandant and then the Captain and then Lieutenant.

ADV GCABASHE: And then the members?

MR FOURIE: No, the Ystergarde worked on a different principle. After the Lieutenant you would find the COs, they were people who were interested in the Ystergarde but first had to be trained.

MS VAN DER WALT: What does the CO stand for?

MR FOURIE: It stand for Candidate Officer.

ADV GCABASHE: Alright, now what I really wanted to know was if I was Lieutenant, who do I get my orders from?

MR FOURIE: From the Captain.

ADV GCABASHE: Right now if Barnard was a Colonel and this was unclear really, why would I listen to anything he had to say if I were say a Lieutenant or anybody below that particular person?

MR FOURIE: In usual circumstances where we gathered and there was such a matter then you receive your instructions from the Brigadier because at that stage we did not know of a Colonel.

ADV BOSMAN: Would you have received instructions or obeyed orders from Mr Barnard.

MR FOURIE: No not in an ordinary meeting where we did security, it was concerned with the security.

CHAIRPERSON: Who would you receive your orders from then?

MR FOURIE: I do not think that I would accept some of his orders except if the leader talked to him and he came to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have had to observe it?

MR FOURIE: Yes I had to observe it.

CHAIRPERSON: Otherwise he wouldn't have thought that you would accept any instructions from him?

MR FOURIE: No not in such an open meeting.

ADV BOSMAN: Do I understand you correctly that you would then see Mr Barnard as a messenger of the leader?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for clarity's sake, you said that you would accept it that he would bring a message only if you observed that the leader talks to him in an open meeting?

MR FOURIE: Let me put it this way Mr Chairperson. Let's say there's an AWB meeting in this Town Hall and the Brigadier Leon told me I must ensure that the security outside is up to standard and then where the leader is, I protected him, and he comes to me from the leader and he tells me for example Commandant the leader say you must do this and this then I would have because we fall directly underneath the leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us say that you're at a farm and they come to tell you do this and do that, what would your position be then?

MR FOURIE: It depends with what he comes with. If he says the leader says so ... (inaudible - end of tape).

ADV BOSMAN: Can you tell us, have you got any idea why there was so much secrecy around this Colonel, Barnard?

MR FOURIE: We never thought about it Mr Chairperson, we never went into the matter or looked into the matter.

ADV GCABASHE: Still with respect to Mr Le Roux, he was a Lieutenant, would it be reasonable in your opinion, would it be reasonable for him to take an order from Barnard in the circumstances in which they were at the time?

MR FOURIE: If that was an order from the leader Mr Eugene Terreblanche yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes but consider these circumstances where he couldn't clarify that, he was just told this, in those circumstances where you can't verify it would you think it's reasonable. What is your opinion for that person to accept that, Nico Prinsloo said ...?

MR FOURIE: I do not quite understand what you mean.

CHAIRPERSON: If a subordinate was told look General Nico Prinsloo says we must do this or that, would you say that it is reasonable that a subordinate will accept such an order or instruction?

MR FOURIE: Well it depends on the circumstances Mr Chairman, like I understood it where there's a war situation it's different than when there's an open meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the question, would you have reacted on that?

MR FOURIE: If my Brigadier was present I would have accepted it yes, otherwise not.

MR MALAN: Can I just ask the following question, you said Mr Le Roux was a Lieutenant?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: You also said that that is the lowest rank except for a Candidate Officer?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So it is more or less an ordinary soldier within the Ystergarde structure in terms of level?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: Now the question that I'm asking is, not if you are a Commandant but when you are a Lieutenant and Barnard comes to you and tells you General Nico Prinsloo says we must do it, it's an order we must plant bombs, my question to you is do you think it is a reasonable action of Mr Le Roux to believe Barnard and to have listened to him?

MR FOURIE: Yes I would assume that in such a war situation, yes.

MR MALAN: No I don't understand you because if there's a war situation, there's not a war but there's the possibility that a war can begin now and I think one would think a few times before you obey such an order. I think if it was not in a war situation and he tells you General Prinsloo say we must, would you not then have believed it easier?

MR FOURIE: Yes I will accept it, the reason why you say General Prinsloo because General Prinsloo was part of the Generals in staff and he had something to do with the Ystergarde and then the Brigadier of the Ystergarde because the Ystergarde does not have a General. The way we understood it was that Nico Prinsloo stood in for the, or represented the Ystergarde in the presence of the Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe.

MR MALAN: Let me ask the question in a more simple way. It is about impressions and I do not want to argue with you but you heard that Mr Le Roux said that he received an order, Barnard told him that we are going to plant bombs, Prinsloo says that we must place these bombs in the centre of town. The question is, given Le Roux's situation and position, do you think it was reasonable for him to accept it and obey it?

MR FOURIE: Yes I think so.

MR MALAN: Why do you say that?

MR FOURIE: Because he was loyal towards his officer.

MR MALAN: But did you not just say that you did not know if Barnard was an officer or not?

MR FOURIE: No but if he moved with the leader and was part of the Generals in staff he had to have a higher rank.

MR MALAN: Did he move with them?

MR FOURIE: Yes he always did, most of the time he did, he never really moved amongst people of our rank.

ADV BOSMAN: Tell me, did the people in general wear uniform when they moved around with the leader etc?

MR FOURIE: Where there were open meetings we always wore our uniforms.

ADV BOSMAN: Were there any rank insignia, could you see what the rank of the person was?

MR FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: And Mr Barnard in general, was he the only person who did not have a uniform on?

MR FOURIE: I do not think he like it. It seems to me as if he did not like the idea that people know who he is and to wear a uniform because he had long hair and the way I saw it, if you are in uniform then your hair has to be short and neat and he did not want to cut his hair.

ADV BOSMAN: Did he have another job besides his involvement with the AWB?

MR FOURIE: No as far as I know Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: I see from the questions that were put by the Committee that you always refer to an open meeting. Were instructions ever given to the Ystergarde at these open meetings?

MR FOURIE: How do you mean open meetings, do you mean where the public is present, like in a Town Hall. Could you just please put the question again?

MS VAN DER WALT: Would certain instructions then be given to the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: By who?

MS VAN DER WALT: By their commanding officers?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you have any knowledge of any call up instructions that you would have received?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who said that there will be call up instructions?

MR FOURIE: After the closed meeting Brigadier Van den Heever, who was known as the fighting Colonel in the special forces, he would gather the people under a tree, there were various Wen Kommando officers from the AWB and he then said that the Generals in staff decided that the people must move up on the 15th of April to Ventersdorp. He did not say Ventersdorp, he said the Western Transvaal.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did they have to move?

MR FOURIE: He said or he talked about protection, security, that people must leave their houses, they must come with caravans, power generators or anything that could help them establish themselves within the Western Transvaal because if we do not get a Volkstaat then there will be war.

MS VAN DER WALT: And was mention made of the Defence Force in Potchefstroom that would assist the AWB?

MR FOURIE: Yes at one stage he did talk or say that we must not worry, because there's enough support from the Defence Force and the police and there was another person, but we'll get to that later and that 40 000 men would march up and as we march up to the Western Transvaal he would add, that the things that we must bring with, for example caravans, power generators etc we must bring, like what they call affirmative shopping, in other words you must go and buy but not pay because they cannot claim it back from you and as you move through and for example if you do not have enough money for petrol and you encounter problems while taking this petrol, you can just shoot your way through or out of the situation in order for no one else to come into the Western Transvaal.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you just put it clearly to us, is this now General Van den Heever who gave these instructions?

MR FOURIE: Brigadier Van den Heever, yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thanks.

ADV GCABASHE: And was this instruction given strictly to the officers who remained after the closed meeting.

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is what he told the officers after that closed meeting.

ADV GCABASHE: So to just help me understand this, if you were coming up from Durban with your family or from Senegal with your family, essentially they were saying bring everybody and this affirmative shopping entailed getting free petrol or whatever all the way up to the Western Transvaal. Just realistically, how was this supposed to work, how did you understand this?

MR FOURIE: I did not really list to what he said because it is not the way in which I do things and just taking things without paying for it.

MS VAN DER WALT: I see that in your application on page 130, paragraph 15 that you say that the meeting was addressed by Etsabeth that the military will assist the AWB. You now gave evidence that it was Chris Van den Heever?

MR FOURIE: Chris Van den Heever conveyed the message from General Etsabeth because he was present when Etsabeth said this because this meeting which he had under the tree was after that closed meeting.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did General Etsabeth address the closed meeting and say that the Potchefstroom Defence Force would support the AWB?

MR FOURIE: Yes he did say that and he mentioned the 40 000 men or soldiers who would take part in this and that the Defence Force would be part of this. He said that they said that we will be provided with ratels and other military vehicles, weapons etc.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we just get clarity here. The evidence that you give now regarding Chris Van den Heever, you talk about a meeting or a gather underneath a tree, when was this now. Was that on the same day?

MR FOURIE: Yes it was on the same day.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you at one stage receive call up instructions?

MR FOURIE: Yes after Brigadier Van den Heever spoke to us we had a meeting with Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe, are you talking about that?

MS VAN DER WALT: No I am asking if you received any call up instructions?

MR FOURIE: Leon Van der Merwe said there that we will be called up.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was that on the same day?

MR FOURIE: Yes it was on the same day.

MS VAN DER WALT: And now these call up instructions, you already gave evidence that the wives and children must come with?

MR FOURIE: Yes he said we must bring everyone with because he, Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe, conveyed a message that apparently a fax had been intercepted which indicated that there was a threat towards the Ystergarde members, their children and wives. And the reason, we believe, was in order for us to be a threat to the enemy.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who uttered this threat?

MR FOURIE: It was Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe who told me about this threat.

MS VAN DER WALT: In this fax, who threatened the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: He said the enemy, it could have been the security forces, it could have been the ANC I do not know.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did he specify?

MR FOURIE: No he did not.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then at a later stage you received a call up instruction. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: When was this?

MR FOURIE: Round about the 10th of April 1994.

MS VAN DER WALT: I see on page 132, paragraph 20 you mentioned the 14th?

MR FOURIE: Yes but under the trees they spoke and said that on the 14th and 15th we must rise up towards Ventersdorp and then Gert Fourie said wouldn't it be better to go there before the time because it might be chaos with all the convoys of cars and everything and if you go there on the 12th then you'll be stationed there earlier.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you all move up to Ventersdorp?

MR FOURIE: The 10th I received a call from Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe and he told me that we must go to Ventersdorp. Me and the Major who was underneath me, Major Johan Smit, I contacted him by phone and I told him that he must give this message to the men, the fact that we received a call up instruction to Ventersdorp.

MS VAN DER WALT: Just to interrupt you, this Major Johan Smit was also a person who was charged with you?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And he was found not guilty?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: So what did you do with your family?

MR FOURIE: Yes, to put it this way it was a massive struggle to leave behind all the things you have been working for all your life, specifically if you are not young anymore and you must give it all away and move again. But to go to a Volkstaat where you know people will look after your interests, then surely you must make the sacrifice so I spoke to my wife and I explained it to her and we trusted what we were told and what we were promised and there will be milk and honey in this Volkstaat so we gave it all up and we sold all our things and we decided to march on towards this Volkstaat.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you still working at Barlows then?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: How many years was it then?

MR FOURIE: 13 1/2, 14 years around there.

MS VAN DER WALT: And as I understood your evidence you worked yourself up when you left school in Standard 7 in order to obtain that position at Barlows?

MR FOURIE: No, first I worked at the railways, because I worked very long hours there and then I moved up to the Transvaal where I saw I could only work day shifts and I could spend more time with my family and then I started working for Barlows. I didn't have my papers but they gave me a chance to get into the car industry and that's where I worked as a mechanic.

MS VAN DER WALT: And there you qualified?

MR FOURIE: No up until now I did not qualify as a mechanic, there were problems with the writing of the papers, I don't know things weren't going very well, I don't know why.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you decided to give up these years of service at Barlows and go to the Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you went to Ventersdorp, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That's correct, all the men came to my house with the caravans and their possessions that they brought with them, their belongings and from there we all drove together towards Ventersdorp.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, you did all these things because you believed that, did you believe all the promises?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson it might be difficult for others to believe.

CHAIRPERSON: No I'm only asking.

MR FOURIE: But me myself it was a thing I believed in and I think I was doing the right thing.

CHAIRPERSON: At least there was a hope that it would realise?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So things didn't work out that way. Where do you live now?

MR FOURIE: Now I'm back in Johannesburg Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: At Barlows?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson I lost that job, because of all these things I lost my job.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you return to your house?

MR FOURIE: No I don't have a house anymore Chairperson, I live with my child.

MS VAN DER WALT: In Ventersdorp there was evidence that the people got together at Trim Park. Did you also go there?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson, first in Ventersdorp where we went around the head office and I got Leon Van der Merwe there and I told him we are here, the men are here with their wives and children. We were promised that there would be a safe place for the wife and kids and that we would have a place to stay and I asked him where do we go from here so he told us that we must go the Trim Park, that there are already people there. We must go and establish ourselves there and he would later joint us. And then we went to the Trim Park.

MS VAN DER WALT: Carry on.

MR FOURIE: So we hung around there. We found Etienne Le Roux there, him and his wife were sort of settled in, they gave us coffee and Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe then arrived there and he spoke to us and he told us - firstly when we all got together there he said to us it's a good thing you're here and that we were supposed to do the security and he would inform us later about what we were supposed to do because he didn't know exactly what was going on and somebody would take us to Cliffie Barnard's farm where there was a better place for us to camp and to settle ourselves in.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did he also address you with regards to the Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: Yes he did say something, he said that the Ystergarde would occupy the towns and the CP people or the towns with CP councils - I'm not clever enough that I understood all these things well, but the major thing was that we trusted in the leadership and he also mentioned the hunting of our people and he asked us whether all the "Garde" people were there and I said all of us were there.

MS VAN DER WALT: It would seem that the farm of Barnard was not quite fit and woman went elsewhere?

MR FOURIE: Yes woman are used to nice facilities and luxuries. The bathroom which was there, the one toilet was not enough for everybody, there were too many women and children and the women were not happy so they decided they'd find us another place to stay, this is for the women and children so then we went to the head office where we met Jan De Wet and his wife, he's also an applicant here and then they took us to Ottersdal, the farm which he was living on then.

MS VAN DER WALT: Several times in your evidence you mention that you went to head office, so head office was there in Ventersdorp and that's where Terreblanche governed, he governed from that head office. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: So Terreblanche, him the leader, he must have known that the people were gathering together there and what was going on?

MR FOURIE: Yes definitely because we greeted him, he must have known. How else could he make people come to Ventersdorp and he doesn't know, otherwise he would have asked us questions, what we were doing there.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you saw him at head office?

MR FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then the men eventually went to a game farm at Magaliesberg, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct. We then left the women behind and went back to Ventersdorp and Major Smit told us that h received an instruction from Brigadier Van der Merwe that we must return to his house.

MS VAN DER WALT: This is now from Ottersdal?

MR FOURIE: Ottersdal, that's correct. So off we went. In that time I did what Major Smit told me because there at the trees the people were speaking and Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe said that nobody should carry his rank anymore.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this at the Trim Park?

MR FOURIE: Yes this is at the Trim Park.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes.

MR FOURIE: Before we went to Cliffie's farm and we were not wearing uniform or anything of the kind.

MS VAN DER WALT: What made you understand and why were you told that you were not going to carry rank anymore or wear your rank anymore?

MR FOURIE: I think it was in order to avoid becoming a target because if you occupy or protect a place, as you learn in the army, if you carry a rank and you can see who are the officers then they would use sharpshooters to kill them.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage did you realise you were in a war?

MR FOURIE: At that stage no, I did not know exactly what was going on.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you accepted what you were told?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you go to the game farm in Magaliesberg?

MR FOURIE: Yes and we went with an escort.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when you got there, were any instructions given?

MR FOURIE: When we arrived there there were already some other people and I learned from the men that General Nico Prinsloo and Jannie were busy with the construction of poles for the radios.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was this Jannie Kruger?

MR FOURIE: Yes, to be able to be in contact with head office and with the farmers in the vicinity, in order to be in radio contact with them.

MS VAN DER WALT: So do you carry any knowledge with regards to the fact that radio poles were erected?

MR FOURIE: Yes they were because I saw and others must have seen as well how Jannie Kruger had problems with the radios and trying to connect with the others and then they went back to change the poles a bit.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know that Jannie Kruger was also involved with head office?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is the AWB head office.

MR FOURIE: Yes the AWB head office in Ventersdorp.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was he also a member of the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: So if I understand you correctly then you had connection with head office and head office would have known that you were gathering at this game farm?

MR FOURIE: The way I understood it was that if there were any problems with regards to the farmers, they would make contact with head office and head office would let us know what to do. That is why they used that area because it was quite high and it was situated in the middle and that made it easy to have better contact with people around that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie who would have given you all this information?

MR FOURIE: If you are together then you can see the people are busy and then you would ask what is happening and then they will tell you that we're putting up the radio poles because we must be in connection with head office and then they would say yes head office would let us know if there were any problems.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem to me that a lot of promises were made, the question of this is going to happen and in case it wasn't going to work, did you make back up plans. Now where did all this information, how did you receive all this information, you as a group gathered together there?

MR FOURIE: When we were in Ventersdorp at that moment we did not know about the radio poles or the game farm.

CHAIRPERSON: But the time you were spending there you received this information, is that no so?

MR FOURIE: At the game farm?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, yes. Now who carried all this information, who was the messenger.

MR FOURIE: At the game farm Jannie Kruger told us how the radios would work.

MS VAN DER WALT: At the game farm, after you arrived there, were you then appointed as Camp Commandant?

MR FOURIE: No Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe came to me and said to me, AB you are appointed as Camp Commandant and you must make sure there is good hygiene. Holes were dug and all the rubbish was thrown into that, and don't throw a lot of rubbish around, he said that to me and Commandant Duppie, he said that Duppie would be the Commandant of operations.

MS VAN DER WALT: This is the applicant Johan Du Plessis?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Major Smit?

MR FOURIE: Major Smit would be in command of the guards.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you explain how this camp was organised or managed?

MR FOURIE: Guards were put out at the gates, the bottom in order for no one to just come in and out as they wish. There was a radio person who worked in shifts, guards who walked around and some of us had to patrol the roads etc in order that if we saw something wrong we could report back.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can I just ask you, you talk about guards who walk around, it is maybe an expression that no everyone will understand?

MR FOURIE: It's guards who do not just stand still at one post, they roam around to make sure that there are no problems anywhere.

MS VAN DER WALT: The people who gathered there, could they leave the camp if they wanted to?

MR FOURIE: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you do?

MR FOURIE: First they had to ask permission to leave?

ADV BOSMAN: Who had to give this permission Mr Fourie?

MR FOURIE: If for example Commandant Duppie as we called him, if he was not there then they had to come and ask me because I was the Camp Commandant and they had to tell me where they were going.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Fourie I would like to clear something up. It seems as if you were responsible for the households of this camp, you were not really involved with instructions and orders and that you just stood in in order to give leave to certain people. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes I accepted it as such.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we will take a lunch adjournment until 2 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: (s.u.o.)

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: (cont)

Mr Fourie before we adjourned we were at the camp at the game farm and you gave evidence regarding the procedures that were followed there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt can you just hold it please. Can we settle down please? Can we close that door? Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: We were at the game farm as you call it, at Magaliesberg and according to your evidence there was strict discipline within this camp. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes we tried to enforce it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you, except for the Camp Commandant, did you have any other duties or services that you had to render?

MR FOURIE: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there patrols?

MR FOURIE: Yes there were patrols in which I took part, Gert and myself.

MS VAN DER WALT: Albie Breers who was also arrested with you but he was never accused?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: These patrols, what did they entail?

MR FOURIE: Well Commandant Duppie as we called him, he was in charge of these patrols. We had to drive around on these farm roads to see if we find something wrong and then report back to him and remain in radio contact and do for example security.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, why are you applying for amnesty?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I was convicted and I must apply for amnesty in order for my release.

CHAIRPERSON: For what is this amnesty, for what charges? Can you name them for me please?

MR FOURIE: I do not have everything with me. They held me responsible for all the bombs that went out, the murder, explosives, possession of explosives, detonating devices that were in my possession.

CHAIRPERSON: The three bombs?

MR FOURIE: They said that I was responsible for all the bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: For all three bombs?

MR FOURIE: For all the bombs yes, the pipe bombs etc.

CHAIRPERSON: The bombs that were used in Bree Street?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That was used in Germiston?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that which was used at the airport?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct as well as the pipe bombs and explosives that they found when the people were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you applying for amnesty regarding the charges concerning Randburg?

MR FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words it's the four places?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us complete then your involvement with these four places?

MR FOURIE: Yes we're getting there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you say Randfontein?

MR FOURIE: Yes I said it was Randfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us take it incident by incident, we don't want to hear about what happened before or what your position was at the farm.

MR FOURIE: I can't really hear what you said now.

CHAIRPERSON: If you want you may use the equipment.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson with respect I would like to ask or state the applicant's evidence will now follow just after he arrived at the game farm. It is actually impossible to take it incident for incident because I do not want to take it forward, all the evidence because at certain stages certain bombs went out because the other applicants who were for example just involved in the Randfontein incident, but his evidence entails an overview of all the bombs because he personally did not go out with the pipe bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Fine I am in your hands, I'm trying to prevent unnecessary evidence.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes I'll try my best but it is unfortunately as his evidence goes. You said that you were patrolling the farm - on page 33, paragraph 22 this applicant would like to amend it, it is the same incident where Mr Le Roux also amended his. It is a small amendment but it creates a wrong impression.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the amendment?

MS VAN DER WALT: This evidence, it is not as it says here that Barnard heard from him who was qualified in explosives and also that Le Roux already told Barnard that he knew Johannesburg. That is actually the essence of the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you saying then, that on 23 April 1994 Clifton Barnard asked this witness for Koekemoer?

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that Le Roux already told Clifford Barnard at a previous opportunity that he knew Johannesburg, he did not ask him at that stage. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You mention here paragraph 22 on page 133. The first amendment was on the second line of that paragraph which must read as follows: While we were at this game farm on Saturday 23 April 1994, Clifton Barnard asked me where Koekemoer was. And then it goes on: ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: The fact that he was an expert in explosives must also be added into that sentence.

MS CAMBANIS: Excuse me Mr Chair, it would appear that two rather substantial amendments are being made to paragraph 22 and perhaps it would be better if the applicant gave the evidence of what the amendment are because it appears from consultations that there's some doubt now whether those are the amendments and he is better placed in a position to say why these amendments are there than out of the mouth of his counsel. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I must comment, I would have expected representatives to have consulted each other on proposed amendments instead of just putting it on the table and there may be an objection to it. So from now on clear it up with your colleagues before you put it on record.

MS VAN DER WALT: I apologise, it is basically just that the applicant is not satisfied with the words as they stand there but I think he should place it on record himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie would you like to repeat paragraph 22 as you would like it to read?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

"While we were on the game farm on Saturday 23 April 1994, Clifton Barnard told me to go to Koekemoer and to hear from him if he knows about explosives and then send him back to me, that is now Clifton".

Please repeat?

"Clifton Barnard told me to go to Koekemoer and to hear from him if he knows about explosives and then to send him to him. ... (inaudible - end of tape). Pieter Koekemoer confirmed this with me and then went to Cliffie".

That is how that paragraph should read Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are then any other amendments you would like to make concerning this paragraph?

MR FOURIE: The rest of this paragraph regarding Etienne who asked me who knew Johannesburg, this happened beforehand.

CHAIRPERSON: Please rectify the whole paragraph as you want it.

CHAIRPERSON: Must we remove that?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: So that which you have asked to be removed no longer exists? ...(transcriber's translation).

MR FOURIE: Yes that must be deleted.

MR PRIOR: Excuse me Mr Fourie you say that the part concerning Barnard, this happened earlier. But if it did happen earlier, you must have knowledge of what it says here? ...(transcriber's translation).

MR FOURIE: Yes, Barnard in our presence - yes, okay now I understand your point Mr Chairperson, I do carry knowledge that Etienne Le Roux knew about Johannesburg.

MR PRIOR: So what is said here is correct, it just happened earlier on. But it is saying that Barnard, earlier on on his farm, wanted to know from me who knows Johannesburg and Etienne Le Roux said that he knew it fairly well.

MR FOURIE: I do not want us to waste time on something that has already been discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: You wanted to say something Mr Bracher?

MR BRACHER: May I just say that it mustn't be overlooked, with respect, that these are sworn statements given under oath, they can't be amended as such, they can be explained. He can change his evidence but he can't amend a sworn affidavit, there's no such procedure with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) that you raise, is this an affidavit? I don't know the answer.

MR BRACHER: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's precisely the point, it's a statement attached to an Affidavit. There is one view that holds that it is part of the Affidavit, there's another argument that says it's merely a statement attached to a sworn Affidavit. It's not the first time that I've come across this kind of problem.

MR BRACHER: If it says for instance in 9A, provides evidence of the deeds in Annexure A then that must be a sworn statement.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) in technical words. I have in the past, and I have no intention of deviating from it, to allow the amendment but to also allow questions just to clarify what may have been the wrong information in that particular statement.

MR BRACHER: Yes that's a pragmatic answer I'm sure.

MS VAN DER WALT: You amended these changes, why did it say that here?

MR FOURIE: Well Koekemoer gave this evidence and with our consultation I would like to rectify it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Initially in your statement did you put it that you thought this is how it occurred?

MR FOURIE: Yes and the time it was given, you sometimes remember different aspects and that is why I wanted to rectify this.

MS VAN DER WALT: But it is a fact that Koekemoer and Le Roux then left with Barnard from Koesterfontein?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now at the game farm was there any planning concerning the theft of vehicles?

MR FOURIE: Yes I saw Duppie and Jannie Kruger they were busy with the men and I took note that it was concerning the theft of 4X4 vehicles.

MS VAN DER WALT: On that Sunday evening on the 24th of April 1994 there was a meeting that took place on this game farm. Do you have any knowledge of this?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who attended this meeting?

MR FOURIE: It was General Nico Prinsloo, Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe, Koper ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this now Myburgh?

MR FOURIE: Yes Koper Myburgh, myself, Duppie ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: This is now Johan Du Plessis?

MR FOURIE: Yes, and Johan Smit.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what was discussed?

MR FOURIE: Koper Myburgh discussed the handing-out of the pipe bombs, that they must be handed out amongst the people who are at the game farm to go and detonate them somewhere.

MS VAN DER WALT: The way in which you understand the rank structure of the AWB, what is your comment now on your evidence that - Koper Myburgh, do you know what his rank was?

MR FOURIE: No I did not know what his rank was.

MS VAN DER WALT: But in your presence there was now a General and a Brigadier as well as a Commandant. How did you see perceive this meeting.

MR FOURIE: If he was the speaker he had to get the approval from the Brigadier and Leon Van der Merwe.

MS VAN DER WALT: In other words he was the speaker?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is how I saw it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know if he was involved with the head quarters in Ventersdorp, that is now Koper Myburgh?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And was he a member of the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: Yes I heard so.

MS VAN DER WALT: After the meeting, what happened then?

MR FOURIE: Nico Prinsloo told me that I must gather the men outside. First he said that everyone at this game farm must take part in this operation, that we must forget about a Volkstaat, there isn't a Volkstaat anymore, the time has passed, the election must be stopped, we have to create chaos, people must be forced into panic so that the election cannot be held.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only reason why these bombs had to be planted?

MR FOURIE: That is how I understood it Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So the idea that there was going to be a fight for a Volkstaat was now abandoned?

MR FOURIE: I don't know, there was no talk about anything else.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you just said that it was said there is not longer a Volkstaat, forget about the Volkstaat, the election must be stopped?

MR FOURIE: Yes, now I understand you correctly, yes that's what was said.

MS VAN DER WALT: So the election had to be stopped, is that what you're saying?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was the main and only reason for these bombs as you understood it?

MR FOURIE: As I understood it there, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now after this meeting, what happened then?

MR FOURIE: I walked out and told the people to go outside as Duppie wanted to address them. Johan Smit, who was a Major at that time, shouted at everybody and told them to go outside because Duppie wanted to see them.

MS VAN DER WALT: And outside, what happened?

MR FOURIE: I do not know exactly what happened outside. There were windows close to the place where they were talking, I was close to that and I saw that Koper Myburgh was demonstrating to the people how to use these pipe bombs, how they worked etc. Then they divided the people into four groups, groups of three people in a group.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why were the people divided into groups?

MR FOURIE: I do not know why, I assume - I don't believe one person could do such a thing.

CHAIRPERSON: At this meeting, when it was said that the election must be stopped, who was present?

MR FOURIE: General Nico Prinsloo, Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe, Koper Myburgh, myself and Duppie, that's Johan Du Plessis and Major Johan Smit.

ADV BOSMAN: None of the other applicants were there?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The meeting was called, you brought the people on the farm together and you say in paragraph 25 that Koper Myburgh demonstrated to the people how the pipe bombs worked and Johan Du Plessis was leading this meeting. Who listened to them and looked what they were doing?

MR FOURIE: The people who were called outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Any of the applicants?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are they?

MR FOURIE: I cannot remember exactly who were outside, but there were some of them there, Gert Fourie, Jaco Smit I saw him there, Veebosch ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that?

MR FOURIE: Oh are we talking about the applicants? Jaco Smit was there - Jaco Nel, sorry, Peet Steyn, Johan - we call him JJ, Johan Venter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Le Roux was he present?

MR FOURIE: No he wasn't outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he not outside?

MR FOURIE: No he wasn't, I didn't see him there.

CHAIRPERSON: And were these people also told to forget about the Volkstaat, forget about it, it no longer exists. Our job is now to make sure that the elections do not take place?

MR FOURIE: I do not know Chairperson. I wasn't present during those activities.

CHAIRPERSON: What did Johan Du Plessis tell them?

MR FOURIE: As I can remember he distributed things to the, to tell you the honest truth I do not know what he said to them. ... (transcribers translation).

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew that the Volkstaat was forgotten at that stage?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: I notice you didn't mention Barnard, Cliffie Barnard, was he there as well that night?

MR FOURIE: In the meeting where Koper was discussing the pipe bombs, is that what you're talking about?

ADV GCABASHE: The meeting where they were told to forget about the Volkstaat and to concentrate on disrupting the election?

MR FOURIE: I cannot remember whether he was there or not Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that the pipe bombs were demonstrated and there were groups of people brought together and they were chosen?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know, these groups of people, were they spoken to by someone maybe Johan Du Plessis, did he address these groups?

MR FOURIE: Johan Du Plessis was outside with them.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention in your amnesty application that the groups were divided as follows, as you can see on page 135, you mentioned Randfontein, Carltonville, Krugersdorp and Pretoria. How do you know that these groups were divided into this fashion?

MR FOURIE: As things continued I learned that this was the case. I wasn't immediately aware of who belonged to what group.

MS VAN DER WALT: I'm not saying that you gave instructions to these people, all I'm asking is how do you know that these people were in these groups and went to those places?

MR FOURIE: At one stage when the other man came back and the bomb was not detonated, he told me.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who did not detonate the bomb?

MR FOURIE: I think it was Hanekom. Philip Van Voller, Pieter Hanekom and Pieter Duvenhage.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is that the group from Krugersdorp?

MR FOURIE: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And there was also a group who went to Pretoria, do you know who they were?

MR FOURIE: They drove with, by brother was present there, he was there himself, Gert Fourie.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the group who went to Randfontein, do you know who they were?

MR FOURIE: Later on I learned that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you aware of the fact, at that stage, that these groups were taking pipe bombs with them?

MR FOURIE: Yes I was aware of that Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You are saying that one of the groups did not detonate the pipe bomb. What do you know about that?

MR FOURIE: When they got back this man came walking towards me, I think it was Hanekom, and he told me what must he do, the thing didn't go off. And I said that's fine.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Pretoria group, that evening they did not return. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then what happened?

MR FOURIE: General Nico Prinsloo said the we are going to move camp. We were under the impression that they might have been arrested whilst they were on their way to Pretoria.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why was the camp moved because of that reason?

MR FOURIE: I do not know, I did not partake in making this decision, it might have been because it was now unsafe because if the people were arrested they might have spoken to the police. That was the conclusion that I made.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you learn while you were at the game farm that there was an explosion in Johannesburg?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did you do then?

MR FOURIE: When the message came through I thought that people would receive the message, I was thinking things are happening now.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you were not present at Koesterfontein, you did not know that they were building bombs. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now you knew there was an explosion, did you know who was responsible for it?

MR FOURIE: I suspected that it was the right-wingers.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why?

MR FOURIE: Because there were discussion concerning the elections which had to be stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Fourie you saw the demonstration of how the pipe bombs were to be used, you saw that?

MR FOURIE: No I didn't observe all of it but I was aware of it.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you become aware of it?

MR FOURIE: Because it was said to us in the meeting that the men had to take part in the pipe bomb demonstration.

CHAIRPERSON: Your application page 134, paragraph 25 you say that you brought the members together at the game farm. Everybody went outside and Commandant Johan Du Plessis led the meeting, Koper Myburgh demonstrated the function of the pipe bombs to the people. There were four groups of three people each chosen. Did you not observe this?

MR FOURIE: Yes from the inside. What I mean is, I thought you said you wanted to know if I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: From where did you observe this?

MR FOURIE: I was inside the building and the porch had big windows, you could see straight through them.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you saw this, what did you think was happening?

MR FOURIE: As it was discussed in the meeting the elections must be stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you think was going to happen with the pipe bombs?

MR FOURIE: They were going to detonate them somewhere to create chaos.

CHAIRPERSON: So you knew it was going to happen?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know about the car bomb?

MR FOURIE: No I had no knowledge concerning the previous bombs and I do not know what happened in Koesterfontein.

ADV BOSMAN: Just tell me, this meeting where you saw what was happening, why weren't you present there?

MR FOURIE: It wasn't my responsibility and I did not want to involve myself in other people's matters.

MR MALAN: Sorry I just want to ask you a question. You said you did not have knowledge, but earlier on you said that there were guards at this camp?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And people couldn't leave the camp without permission?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR MALAN: The permission was to be obtained from, was it Du Plessis or yourself?

MR FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Did nobody ask you permission to leave the camp?

MR FOURIE: For example Cliffie and them?

MR MALAN: Yes.

MR FOURIE: He just told me that he's taking them. I couldn't oppose him.

MR MALAN: So you knew they were out of the camp?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And did you link that with the explosion of the car bomb, was that the suspicion you had when you said you suspected them to be right-wingers?

MR FOURIE: No that's not the reason that made me suspect this.

MR MALAN: So when you heard over the new the car bomb exploded in Bree Street, you still didn't know that it was part of your group involved with that?

MR FOURIE: If I can remember correctly Chairperson, that evening on the news there was a question that they suspected the right-wingers of being responsible for that, I'm quite sure that's what they said.

MR MALAN: But you said that you yourself suspected them?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR MALAN: But you did not think that these right-wingers were coming from your groups from the farm?

MR FOURIE: Exactly Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Please tell me, the meeting that took place on the Sunday evening, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they not talk there that evening of a bomb that exploded that morning?

MR FOURIE: At that meeting they did not talk about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing, not at all?

MR FOURIE: Nothing Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So when did you hear the news, before or after this meeting?

MR FOURIE: We went to fetch a television and it was on the television. I will have to lie if I say when it was, I cannot remember when I saw it on the television.

CHAIRPERSON: But you must have watched TV after the meeting because after you guys spoke, it would seem that the right-wingers were responsible for the explosion. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: I'll tell you something Chairperson why I thought it was right-wing people who did this, because General Nico Prinsloo when the Natalers from Natal arrived there he told them that the BKA, "Boere Crisis Action" was already busy with certain things but he did not elaborate.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you agree that the television news, you must have seen it after the meeting because you testified that the conclusion was made that it was the right-wing people who were responsible for the bombs because of the fact of what had been said at the meeting. Is that not true?

MR FOURIE: I cannot follow you very easily, please excuse me.

CHAIRPERSON: When you heard on the TV news that there was a bomb explosion, did you come to the conclusion that it had to be the right-wing party who had to be responsible for that bomb. This is the one that was shown on TV and you say that you made that conclusion because of what you heard at the meeting on the game farm that evening. I am asking you do you agree that you must have heard the news after the meeting?

MR FOURIE: Now I see what you mean.

CHAIRPERSON: You made the conclusion because of the meeting that took place and then you saw the TV news?

MR FOURIE: Then I must correct myself. It was the TVs news broadcast I thought it was right-wing people who were involved?

CHAIRPERSON: Because of the fact that you heard it at the meeting?

MR FOURIE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the meeting have nothing to do with it?

MR FOURIE: No the meeting had nothing to do with it.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said you made the conclusion because of what you heard at the meeting?

MR FOURIE: No that's a misunderstanding.

ADV BOSMAN: At what stage Mr Fourie did you learn for the first time that Le Roux or knew that Le Roux and Barnard were responsible for the Bree Street bomb. When did you find that out for the first time?

MR FOURIE: That Le Roux and Barnard ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Yes that they were responsible for the Bree Street Bomb explosion?

MR FOURIE: When we got to the shooting range everything became clear to me while we were there.

MS VAN DER WALT: You tried to sort out some confusion here. The way I understand your evidence, you saw on the television and you heard the comment that it could possibly be a right-wing action?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that evening when pipe bombs were handed out and you knew pipe bombs were going out, what did you then think?

MR FOURIE: ... (inaudible - beginning of tape) self it wasn't maybe the same people who did it, because why are the pipe bombs leaving the same place.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am referring to paragraph 28 on page 136: After the first car bomb exploded and with the knowledge of the explosive expert Barnard asked me - when I realised then that the struggle had just begun. Can you comment on that paragraph?

MR FOURIE: How will I put it, if they sent the pipe bombs from us, who made them. If some of them brought them with then they had to be connected with the, or they had something to do with the other bomb explosions.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you made the conclusion although you did not know what happened in Koesterfontein?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then at a later stage like you gave evidence, you heard what had happened?

MR FOURIE: That is correct yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then go to the shooting range?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what happened there?

MR FOURIE: We arrived there, things were very disordered and the men asked me if they can go and visit their wives.

MS VAN DER WALT: All the men?

MR FOURIE: No, the majority who were in my area and I told them I'll go and talk to Brigadier Van der Merwe in order to get permission to go to our wives and he then said we could.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there anybody else then appointed as Camp Commandant?

MR FOURIE: General Nico Prinsloo appointed Miles Sharp, he was a person who came from Natal, he appointed him as Camp Commandant.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did the people from Natal arrive at the game farm, can you remember?

MR FOURIE: I can't remember the date exactly, but it was after we arrived there.

MS VAN DER WALT: You then left the shooting range?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know about any other bombs that were exploded?

MR FOURIE: No I didn't know about anything else.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then return to the shooting range?

MR FOURIE: When we returned from our wives to go back to the shooting range, we stopped at Ventersdorp at the headquarters because Jan De Wet was with us and he said that we must go around to the headquarters. When we arrived there we me the leader of the AWB, Mr Eugene Terreblanche and other people who worked there at the head quarters. He then called us into his office and Jan De Wet and he told us that General Nico Prinsloo and Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe were arrested.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know where they were arrested?

MR FOURIE: No I do not know.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this General Nico Prinsloo and Brigadier Van der Merwe, were they your co-accused?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And they were found not guilty?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is true. When we arrived at the office or when we left the office some of the other men stood outside and Mr Eugene Terreblanche told them, he said men these Generals of mine ate dirt, they dropped us, they left us in the lurch and he used another word in-between which starts with B, "bliksem", he said that they left us in the lurch and those were his words. He said here is money, go and buy some petrol and do not let them catch you even if you have to shoot your way clear.

Then he said to us if we get caught we can just keep silent, we have the right to keep silent because it was a good thing, and then the same word he used, and they did well to change this Section 29 and it was then amended. I do not have a lot of knowledge concerning that. He then explained to us how it works that we have the right to keep silent or that we would need lawyers to speak for us and we must just remember that we are the heroes of the Volk, the true freedom fighters who were prepared to take part in the struggle.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Fourie can you remember what day it was, was that the day after the explosion at Jan Smuts when you then arrived at the headquarters?

MR FOURIE: I really do not know, I cannot say.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage had you heard about the explosions?

MR FOURIE: Well if one is away from the women then one would like to spend some time with your wife and children. I did not really consider what was going on.

MS VAN DER WALT: I have copies of the Boere identity document, maybe it could be presented to the Committee if the Chairperson agrees, I will submit the original one. I then ask permission that it can be submitted as Exhibit D. Sorry I usually speak Afrikaans and then I make such a mistake.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, just going back to what Terreblanche was saying to you, you know he gave you the petrol money and said you should try and get away, where were you all supposed to got to because you had all come up to Ventersdorp to help form this Volkstaat. Where were you going to?

MR FOURIE: I had no idea where we should go. When we left there I was with other men and they just took a direction. I was at so many places, today I wouldn't remember how to get there.

ADV GCABASHE: And roughly when exactly did this meeting take place?

MR FOURIE: Are you asking for the date and the day? I cannot remember, it was the day after they were arrested at the shooting range. The same day we went home and from there we went to Ventersdorp to give you an indication of what occurred.

ADV GCABASHE: Now the people who Terreblanche was addressing were officers from the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: It was the people who went to their wives and then came back.

ADV GCABASHE: And then you were then supposed to pass this message on to others, was this the idea?

MR FOURIE: No some of the people were present there.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we just get some clarity. You just said that this was after the people were arrested at the shooting range when you went to Ventersdorp?

MR FOURIE: I would like to correct myself, after Leon Van der Merwe and Nico Prinsloo were arrested.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know if other people were arrested that same day at the shooting range?

MR FOURIE: At that stage, no. When we left we went to other people who Jan De Wet knew, if I could just remember correctly, and this woman who lived on that farm told us that the people at the shooting range, that some of our people at the shooting range were arrested.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then flee?

MR FOURIE: Yes we were then on the run, from that stage on.

MS VAN DER WALT: And a few months afterwards you were arrested?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to take you back to this Boere identity document which you showed to the Committee. You said that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Will this be Exhibit E, Exhibit D is the statement of Mr Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: I forgot about that, I'm sorry. Then it will be Exhibit E. You could not remember the name of the person who handed over this document to you. Have you thought about his name?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I now know his name. The male person was the actor Scott Jacobs, I'm sorry Schalk Jacobs and the female was Elma Potgieter. As far as I can remember they were husband and wife.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did they issue these documents?

MR FOURIE: Yes if you look at the back of the document you will see Potgieterís Printers, and then it rang a bell and I remembered their names.

MS VAN DER WALT: They were then the publishers, how did it come about that you applied for this document. What happened, why did you apply for such a document?

MR FOURIE: At one meeting which I attended when I was a Chief Commandant in the Wen Kommando, then this Schalk Jacobs attended one of the monthly meetings and asked permission to address the people and he then talked about this document. As far as I can remember some of these forms were attached to the AWB forms that went through headquarters and that is how some of the other people obtained some of them.

MS VAN DER WALT: So there are other people who also have such documents?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: On the first page the Boerevolk's principles are outlined?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then it continues, me the holder of this document declare that I reconcile or side myself with the freedom struggle of the Boerevolk and that I will fight this struggle on the basis of the following principles. And then on the second page there are various things that you have to read through, Boerevolk, the land, the Anthem, form of government and then the last paragraph: I read the above in applying for this document, I understand it and will commit myself to the struggle of the Boerevolk. When you received this document did you believe in what you undertook?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then on the third page your particular, basically with the same information as a normal identity document.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie there is something that I would like to find out. I think this is probably the only identity document in the whole world with two ID numbers. Which one would you then use? That is on page 3.

MR FOURIE: Yes there are two identity numbers. That's a very good question Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And it seems as if it's from two countries, the Boerevolk and the Republic of South Africa?

MR FOURIE: At certain opportunities where I went into a bank to go and draw money and once when I had to sign for insurance papers, before this incident I took out the same ID document because I was very proud of it. They then asked me where I found this ID document and I said this is our new Boere identity document and they asked for the number and I am sure that my real ID number is also there. If it now must be compared to other documents, but I understood that in the Volkstaat as it was promised to us, we would make use of those new identity numbers.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were also asked by the Chairman on what charges you are applying for amnesty. You were found guilty of the three charges concerning the car bombs, that is Bree Street, Germiston and Jan Smuts airport?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And together with all the charges that go along with that, the murder charges, attempted murder and attempt to damage property, you were found guilty. Furthermore you were also found guilty on the explosion in Pretoria and Randfontein and Westonaria?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And also with regards to all the other charges that go along with that, attempted murder and deliberate damage of property and then also that you were found in possession of explosives and detonation devices. You personally, never really owned those explosives?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson most of them I didn't even know about.

MS VAN DER WALT: But the judge found you guilty because you were seen as being in charge of the camp at the game farm?

MR FOURIE: That's how I understood it Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you gain any benefit from all these act which were committed during those operations?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson after this incident I realised that our soldiers, the freedom fighters, the leaders of the AWB, the Volksfront and the CP we were misused by the AWB, Volksfront and CP because they never filled their promises for a Volkstaat as they promised. I made provision in all the years that I've been working and in ten years time I would have been able to retire and I could have spent the rest of my life in peace with my wife, children and grandchildren.

I had to sacrifice all of that and also the money and we went to the Volkstaat where they promised us we would live in peace. Since my arrest I lost everything. I got out on bail, I had problems finding work because you can't get work when you come from prison, the people think you're horrible. After my sentence I sold the rest of my property in order to live and I also had a responsibility towards my family. I lost two wonderful parents, they couldn't really take what was happening anymore.

After I received my sentence I couldn't even go to my own father's funeral because they thought I was too bad and I wasn't allowed to show respect to my father and my dear mother who was not too well, and these things really tore her apart, I could not fulfil my obligations toward her. And now I must work until the day I can no longer, if I find work that is.

MS VAN DER WALT: What are you saying, are you saying you did not gain any benefit out of these events, but whilst you were there at the camp and you were aware of what was happening, did you as you said before, reconcile yourself with what was happening then and did you believe that you were doing it on behalf of the AWB or what were you thinking?

MR FOURIE: Yes I think we had a completely different picture of how things might turn out. We believed in our leaders, if a man is standing on stage and he's a leader, obviously he knows better than you do. Me myself I would never pull my children into such a thing, I would never say to them something unless I know it's good for them.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you are saying that you were doing it on behalf of the AWB and it's intentions?

MR FOURIE: I believed that what I was doing was the right thing. The leaders of the AWB, Volksfront and the Freedom Front and the CP, I believed all of them. I listened to all the people shouting at the meetings, shouting enough is enough, it's time for war. I mean how do you otherwise become involved in a thing like this, you have to believe in it.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words Mr Fourie you knew that the possibility existed that people might lose their lives?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson when these things happened, I foresaw that there would be loss of life.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew that this would happen by means of explosives?

MR FOURIE: To my regret, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: There is just one other aspect, I by accident omitted this. On page 129, paragraph 13 you mentioned several Generals - it's on page 129 Chairperson, paragraph 13 and it continues to page 130.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph?

MS VAN DER WALT: Paragraph 13, it's right at the bottom. You mentioned that at that meeting the following people were present. This is now the meeting in February 1994 where there was an open meeting as well as a closed meeting and you made mention of the following Generals who were present there when Eugene Terreblanche was there as well. Do you confirm that those Generals were in fact there?

MR FOURIE: Yes I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: Just one last aspect, are you still a member of the AWB?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson, at the moment I have nothing to do with politics, I am not interested in politics because I feel people use you as pawns to gain benefit from you and then you are thrown away.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you feel that you were used?

MR FOURIE: I feel that I was used and also the other people also believed that they were used.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Fourie I put it to you for the applicants that I'm representing that it was never conveyed to them and specifically Du Plessis that at the game farm that they were never told to forget about the Volkstaat. Do you have any comment?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson, I wasn't talking about a Volkstaat idea that was discarded.

MR PRINSLOO: Did I misunderstand you when you said that they must forget about a Volkstaat.

MR FOURIE: No the impression I got was that from the other side we would not be given a Volkstaat and we must forget that we would get one because they won't give us one.

MR PRINSLOO: I understand what you mean. Mr Fourie furthermore, at the game farm while you were there, were you aware of the fact that other Generals, except for Prinsloo, were there, General Cruywagen, General Ackerman, do you know about them?

MR FOURIE: No that could have happened when I was doing patrols but there was a time when I did see Cruywagen one morning there.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie I'm going to question you in English, perhaps you would like to put the earphones on. Mr Fourie, whilst giving evidence, and in particular towards the end when you spoke about your parents, you became tearful and emotional did you not?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Have you ever become tearful and emotional about the people that were killed in this bombing campaign?

MR FOURIE: At one point when you're in a war situation, unfortunately it is the case that people are going to die, it's what we say in the army when we acted and today I do not feel about mentioning this because it was different at that time, but at that time they called it casualties of war ... (inaudible - end of tape).

MR LANDMAN: ... (inaudible - beginning of tape) from Natal that bombs had been planted by the Boere Crisis Action. Is that right?

MR FOURIE: He said that there were certain things going on by using the BKA Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Now can you give any reason why Mr or General Prinsloo wouldn't have told you that the bomb in Bree Street was planted by the AWB?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson I do not know what his idea was, I don't know why he didn't tell me or why he didn't inform us with regards to that, I really cannot tell you I cannot speak for him.

MR LANDMAN: In your dealings with General Prinsloo I take it you noticed that he was proud to be a member of the AWB?

MR FOURIE: Who was proud to be a member?

MR LANDMAN: General Prinsloo.

MR FOURIE: Yes he was proud to be a member, is that what you're asking me? That's correct Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And Mr Fourie when the pipe bombs were handed out did General Prinsloo indicate that he was happy that members of the AWB were going out on these operations?

MR FOURIE: It carried his approval, I wouldn't say he was happy, we weren't happy we didn't chat if that's what you're asking.

MR LANDMAN: Did he openly associate himself with the fact that members of the AWB were going to go out and plant pipe bombs in various areas?

MR FOURIE: That is so Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: But when it came to the Bree Street bomb, he never publicly, even amongst yourselves, associated himself with that car bomb. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: I can't hear very well, the voice is too loud.

MR LANDMAN: I'll repeat the question, is it correct that in connection with the Bree Street car bomb, General Prinsloo did not publicly or even amongst you in the AWB camp, publicly acknowledge that he was associated with that bomb?

MR FOURIE: I cannot speak for him, he did not discuss it with us Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Now what is the Boere Crisis Action, what is that organisation?

MR FOURIE: I do not have a lot of knowledge about the Boere Crisis Action, but as far as I know it was a unit that fell under Constand Viljoen which was concerned with the Boere and he had something to do with that.

MR LANDMAN: Do you know whether Cliffie Barnard, Koper Myburgh, Etienne Le Roux and Jan De Wet were members of that Boere Action?

MR FOURIE: Are you asking me if I knew if they were part of it? No I do not know if they were part of it or not.

MR LANDMAN: You see I want to refer you to the bundle which is entitled Volume 2 with the indictment in. On page 95 of that bundle, you will find that 94 is marked and then 96, it's the one in-between. Mr Fourie I would like you just to start at page 94 if you would just turn back one page. Just turn back the page.

MR FOURIE: 94.

MR LANDMAN: Yes and if you look at the bottom Mr Fourie I'm going to read it out to you: Concerning Bree Street he approved the bombing in Johannesburg - that is now yourself - but it is not clear if it was the same bomb and secondly if it was an approval which occurred with hindsight regarding this misconduct could have been done by the Boere Crisis Action of which accused numbers 1 to 4 were members of.

MR FOURIE: Who described it?

MR LANDMAN: This is the judge in the trial court, Judge Flemming. Do you agree with that or no?

MR FOURIE: It could be Mr Chairperson but I have got no proof to substantiate it. They never told me that they were members of the Boere Crisis Action.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie do you in your amnesty application, do you admit that you were involved in committing the offence of murder in connection with the Bree Street bombing? Do you admit that you killed the people who were involved in that bombing?

MR FOURIE: I did not have a say Mr Chairperson, I didn't have any say in that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: The interpretation was whether he admits that he was involved with the people and not that he admits that he killed the people so it came across incorrectly. Could you please repeat the question.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie let me put to you what my dilemma is. If I understand you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Has the previous question been repeated or the answer? Are you satisfied? Mr Landman could you repeat your previous question please?

MR LANDMAN: Chairman I'm going to try and see if I can recall the form of the question. Mr Fourie do you say to this Committee that you were, are you saying to this Committee that you agree that you killed the people who were involved in the Bree Street bombing?

MR PRIOR: In other words killed the people who were blown up in this bomb?

MR FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer?

MR FOURIE: Do they want to know if I was indirectly involved with the planning of it?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, do you accept that you are responsible for the death of these people?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, because I was part of them I must accept it.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie did you know that that bomb was going to be planted in Johannesburg that Sunday?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson I did not know that.

MR LANDMAN: Did you know that any bombs were going to be planted on the Sunday?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Did you do anything to participate in planning that bomb?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: So you played no role whatsoever in connection with that bombing?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson when those bombs were planned, that is what I think you are wanting to know, I had nothing to do with that, I was at the game farm, I did not know what was going on at Koesterfontein. Only later did I hear what happened.

MR LANDMAN: When did you first find out that it was one of your fellow applicants who was involved in this bombing?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson if I can remember correctly, one evening some of our people arrived at the game farm, amongst others, Jan De Wet. I do not know or he talked about the bomb but it was so long ago and so many things that I have to give attention and he talked about a bomb, but I cannot with certainty say if it was the Bree Street bombing that he talked about.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not give evidence earlier on that you heard about the bombing on the TV?

MR FOURIE: No but I did not understand that they were talking about that.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know which bomb they were talking about?

MR FOURIE: No one told me about any bomb.

MR LANDMAN: When did you first find out that one of the applicants, in particular Mr Le Roux, was involved in that bombing, when were you first informed of that?

MR FOURIE: On the game farm just before we left, I think it was the following day, I cannot remember Mr Chairperson. I'm thinking now if it was Cliffie or someone who the following day after the pipe bomb mission arrived at the game farm who talked about the bombs, I cannot remember, at this stage I cannot remember no.

MR LANDMAN: You see Mr Fourie what I have difficulty in understanding is why are you asking for amnesty in respect of an incident which you were not involved in at all?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, I marched up with the rest of the people, I was not a big leader but I was in a leadership position and when these things happened, I reconciled myself with what happened. I cannot leave my men behind and claim no responsibility, I must claim some responsibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, to be fair to you, the advocate is not talking about your loyalty, he's talking about the fact that you had an influence in this crime.

MR FOURIE: Well I did not contribute anything to that crime, but I was convicted for it.

MR LANDMAN: Could we possibly, just to clarify that, possibly look at Volume 2 again which contains a summary inter alia of convictions and sentences. And if we turn to page ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Landman haven't you made your point?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman in fact what I would like to do is just to address the Committee very briefly about this matter. I'm not even sure whether there's any need to continue at all in respect of the Bree Street bombing.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we all understand the point you made.

MR LANDMAN: Yes, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Mr Fourie when you made your application for amnesty is it correct that Annexure A is more or less the evidence that was given by Mr Koekemoer at the trial?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson Annexure A, is that what you are talking about?

MS CAMBANIS: Sir your application for amnesty, the sequence of events and the facts stated in your application, does that not more or less correlate with what Mr Koekemoer's evidence was at your trial?

MR FOURIE: What is this, is this on the first page? I do not know what you are talking about.

MS CAMBANIS: The facts that - who were the applicants that were involved in the bombing incidents and what the motives for those bombs were?

MR FOURIE: We who were involved in this whole set-up, is that what you're talking about and then the motive of the whole set-up. What about that?

MS CAMBANIS: Was Mr Koekemoer's evidence regarding the motive for this correct. Do you agree with that?

MR FOURIE: That we must disrupt the elections, is that what you would like to know?

MS CAMBANIS: Well let me be specific. If Mr Koekemoer said that the purpose was acts of terror against Black people, is that correct? The purpose of the bombing?

MR FOURIE: What did I hear about Blacks, repeat the question please?

MS CAMBANIS: The purpose was for acts of terror against Black people.

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I have no knowledge of acts of terror against Black people. This was not, according to me - I have never been a racist and I have got no idea of racist acts of terror or that something like that existed. Is that what you wanted to know Mr Chairperson?

MS CAMBANIS: Just simply, do you deny that that was the motive as Koekemoer gave evidence?

MR FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: And do you deny that it was bombs were used for terror attacks on Blacks and Black taxis?

MR FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: And he also gave evidence that when you heard about the bombs you were actually amused by them.

MR FOURIE: What do you mean about amused?

MS CAMBANIS: You laughed Sir.

MR FOURIE: I cannot hear.

CHAIRPERSON: It is put to you Sir that when you heard about the bombs that went off, you laughed about it.

MR FOURIE: Laughed about the bombs that were planted?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes that is what was put to you? You are being asked for your comment.

MR FOURIE: I did not consider it as a laughing matter.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makubela?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAKUBELA: Mr Fourie I have got very few questions for you. Earlier on during evidence in chief you told us of affirmative buying and that meant that if you didn't have money you could go into a shop and take things and never pay for them and your response to that you said that - you actually told us that you did not go with that idea because you were never raised that way and you were also asked whether you agreed to killing people in Bree Street and you said yes and you further on said you reconcile yourself with this fact because you were part of these people. Now I've got a concern here, were you raised to reconcile yourself with things that are much more detestable like the killing of people than things that are less detestable like taking things and never paying for them?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson during that period when we marched up to the so-called Volkstaat in Ventersdorp then I did not see any reason to kill people, to steal something from anyone because then I have to sit with my conscience which is not right. In a war situation it is a different matter.

MR MAKUBELA: You further told us that you were told that if the previous government gave power to the African National Congress you will not give in, you would not negotiate with them and the only way you would negotiate with them is through the barrel of the gun. I suppose and I presume you also reconciled yourself with this fact because these were people with whom you were in one organisation. Do you have, as a person now, do you have any problems with the African National Congress in general and Black people in particular.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to put it as follows: It is not the applicant who said that he will not negotiate, that he will just do it over the barrel of a gun, it was Eugene Terreblanche, the leader of the AWB, if I could just correct the question.

MR MALAN: Chairman I would just say that from the direct translation it was translated that he reconciled himself with that statement, I don't think that it was put that it was his words.

MR MAKUBELA: I will put the question once again. It was said if the previous government gave power to the African National Congress, you will not negotiate with the, the only way you would negotiate with them was through the barrel of a gun and now you told us that you reconciled yourself with everything that was said by this organisation, I suppose you also reconciled yourself with this aspect or this fact.

Now I'm asking you, do you as a person, have a problem Mr Fourie with the African National Congress in general and Black people in particular, because we know it is common cause that the African National Congress has it's membership, most of it's membership are Black people?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson there are not only black members in the ANC. As far as I am concerned, in my home when children do something bad they are punished. I do not differentiate between my daughter and my son. If one of them did something wrong it had to be corrected or rectified. It is the same here whether the person is White, Black or if he is Brown if he doesn't agree with me, and if he is not interested in my concerns then there would be a problem. It is not about racism.

MR MAKUBELA: And finally Mr Fourie there's one aspect that strikes me in your evidence in chief, you seem to be disassociating yourself mostly, well except for the fact that you said you reconcile yourself with everything that the organisation stood for, but mostly in your evidence you seem to be disassociating yourself, you told us first that in the meetings you never heard anything because you were patrolling, you told us when there was a demonstration of the pipe bombs you were also not there, you did not observe this, you only saw it from I think a room, you also told us that you did not even know if the bombs were going to be planted and stuff like that, my concern here is why is it that you seem to be disassociating yourself with most of these things which are very crucial in this matter, is it in an attempt, a desperate attempt to absolve yourself from these horrible deeds?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson I was asked about ten different things, if you could just move to a point and we can ask each one of them separately then it might be easier for me and you can get a better impression with regards I'll give.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's make it simpler for your, it's put to you that it seems that you distance yourself from the majority of incidents and how these events took place and how they came about and therefore you were asked if this is an attempt to get yourself out of these problems?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I am in this situation, I'm not making apologies. You expect me to tell you the truth and that is what I'm trying to do, I want to give you the truth and that's the story Chairperson. If I must give account I must take responsibility because I was part of the group and we had to fight this battle against the elections then I admit it, I was part of the struggle but there were things I did not know about and I simply did not know about them Chairperson.

MR BOSMAN: Mr Fourie are you trying to tell us that physically you did not partake in most of those things, but in your mind and in your conscience you did reconcile yourself with that, is that what you are trying to tell us?

MR FOURIE: I was with my people, our people and what they did I must reconcile myself with that. I cannot let them take responsibility on their own, we went there together, we did all of these things together Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie can I just add something, I heard you say that you knew of certain things for example you knew that you were looking for a guy who was an expert with explosives, that was Koekemoer, you also knew that a man was looked for who knew Johannesburg, you knew things were going to happen. You didn't know exactly when or where, but you were part of it, you didn't oppose it you saw it as part of the struggle and in that aspect you do accept that you took part in a fashion, but you did not physically go out and kill anybody?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson, but I'm part of them because I went with them to Ventersdorp.

MR MAKUBELA: And finally Mr Fourie, in paragraph 28 on page 136 you say that ...(inaudible) ....(tape ends)

MR FOURIE: ...(inaudible) against the people who wanted to make sure that the election took place, we wanted to stop the elections, if I understand your question correctly.

MR MALAN: The question that Mr Makubela asked you was against who did you forge this battle, you said the people who wanted to make the election take place. Who was that?

MR FOURIE: The ANC, SACP and the National Party Chairperson.

MR MAKUBELA: Thank you I don't have any further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKUBELA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie just before I forget. In an answer to one of my colleagues questions and I do not understand you very well, I don't understand the answer very well, how could you reconcile yourself with something that you did not even know about?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson our people were involved there, I was present amongst those people, what could I do, we were together in this thing and we had to accept it.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that your reason why you accept responsibility for the Bree Street bomb?

MR FOURIE: That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Even if you didn't know it was going to happen?

MR FOURIE: That is so Chairperson, I was found not guilty on that charge.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he found guilty or not guilty on that charge?

MR FOURIE: I was found guilty.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, I wonder if the Committee could indicate until what time it intends sitting, there are still four of us to come, perhaps if we could caucus we could cut down our cross examination substantially. With respect Mr Chair to Malan I'm now being railroaded, I would like the opportunity to consult with my colleagues to my left in an attempt between all four of us we could perhaps minimise the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We'll see how far you get till 4 o'clock.

MR KRIEL: With or without the opportunity of consulting with my colleagues?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on until 4 o'clock.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: I'm indebted to you Sir. Mr Fourie you did military service for the then government, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Where were you stationed?

MR FOURIE: I was a member of the Northern Natal Command after I finished my service in Ladysmith, it was at 5 SAI, as they called it.

MR KRIEL: You were an infantryman.

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR KRIEL: And how long did this last?

MR FOURIE: 9 Months basic training Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And which rank did you achieve there?

MR FOURIE: No I didn't have a rank, I was too naughty. I could have got a rank but I didn't want it.

MR KRIEL: You were a Private right through?

MR FOURIE: I was a foot soldier, I worked with mortars, I had training concerning that. I also had driving training and LMG and things like that.

MR KRIEL: And after that you did camps for about 10 years, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And during that time were you ever promoted?

MR FOURIE: No when they discussed it with me I wasn't interested.

MR KRIEL: And then you finished your military service and when was this?

MR FOURIE: My military service - I cannot remember exactly, but I think I did my military service in '67/'68 or '68/'69, that's when I did my 9 months military service Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: But when did you finish in general with your military service, the initial time as well as the camps that you later had to attend?

MR FOURIE: I think it was 1979. I did my last 3 months of border service in South West Africa at Angola and there was an argument between myself and some of the officers with regards to the political situation in the country and afterwards when I got back home after the 3 months I received a letter from the South African Defence Force which said that I was no longer needed to do service.

MR KRIEL: When did you join the AWB, was it whilst you were busy with the camps or not?

MR FOURIE: It was during that time, 1977.

MR KRIEL: That's when you joined the AWB?

MR FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And how long did it take you to become a Commandant in the AWB?

MR FOURIE: It took me a long time Chairperson, it only happened later, maybe 10 or 11 years after that.

MR KRIEL: Mr Fourie if I understand you correctly, the Wen Kommando, sorry the Ystergarde was the elite?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And you were a member of that?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR KRIEL: And the Wen Kommando was that a military wing of the AWB which was lower in rank than the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: I believe that when a person is in uniform he must act with discipline. Let me put it this way, I was in the Wen Kommando, I was proud to wear my uniform and I believe when a man is in uniform you must portray a good image because people look at you when you wear a uniform and I worked my way up and I handled it in the proper fashion and later I became Chief Commandant, I organised meetings, I had meetings with people and as far as I was concerned it was important the people could stand together and hold each others hands. I never proclaimed violence, to me it was unity within the nation that mattered. As far as I was concerned, as people can testify who served under me at that time, it was important for me to help the poor and underprivileged if you had too much. People arrived there who we later named braaivleis fighters, they did not carry my approval and that's why I joined the Ystergarde.

MR KRIEL: Yes it's about these braaivleis fighters that I want to talk about. This weekend that the bombs were planted, did the braaivleis fighters also gather at a certain spot?

MR FOURIE: Are you asking me if they did? Well the way we understood it in Ventersdorp there would be 40 000 people who would gather there and they are now from all the districts all over the country, their commanders and their men, but I did not say that all of them were braaivleis fighters, some of them would be one of them.

MR KRIEL: If I could just rectify this matter, these braaivleis fighters were they at the game farm?

MR FOURIE: No, no alcohol was allowed according to my knowledge.

MR KRIEL: And on the shooting range?

MR FOURIE: Not as far as I know of. Are you talking about the braaivleis fighters, the AWBs?

MR KRIEL: I'm using your words, I'm talking about the braaivleis fighters.

MR FOURIE: Some of them were from the Wen Kommando, yes.

MR KRIEL: And do you consider the Wen Kommando people as braaivleis fighters?

MR FOURIE: No, like I put it to you not all of them, some of them would be one of them.

MR KRIEL: I'm asking you if there were braaivleis fighters, you said yes there were Wen Kommando's and the conclusion I made was that the braaivleis fighters would be the Wen Kommando.

MR FOURIE: Yes the Wen Kommando people did arrive at the shooting range who delivered meat for us to braai, and they were from the Wen Kommando.

MR KRIEL: And did you have a braai?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR KRIEL: On what day was that?

MR FOURIE: It was on the same day when we arrived at the shooting range and it was the same day when we went to the wives.

MR KRIEL: Was that the Monday?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I cannot precisely say what the day was.

MR KRIEL: Let's just take you back. The Sunday or the Sunday evening the groups with the pipe bombs left, you say they did not return.

MR FOURIE: Are you saying it's the Sunday.

MR KRIEL: Yes the Sunday.

MR FOURIE: Yes well then it was the Monday Mr Chairperson that you're talking about when it occurred at the shooting range.

MR KRIEL: So you were already at the shooting range on Monday.

MR FOURIE: Yes, if I can make my conclusion from what you say Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Mr Chair I wonder if this isn't a good time to adjourn?

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairperson. There's one matter that we have to clear up and that is the question around Mr Koper Myburgh. If the panel can remember he withdrew his application formally and I can see that he is still present. I took it up with the legal representatives of the applicants. If you can also remember Adv Van der Walt also withdrew as his advocate and Adv Prinsloo told me that Mr Myburgh considers himself the implicated person and that's why he can be here rightfully.

I understood it that he consulted with Mr Myburgh and that position was then conveyed to me. I then told Adv Prinsloo that I don't understand his position but I made it clear that he is not interested in the process as such and that therefore according to me - so I'm actually asking for a decision from the Committee and I was also requested by the prison services, there's certain costs and security matters and if he's not needed here, it would be better if he remained in prison. If he's needed by one of the parties then at that stage an arrangement will be made for him to be brought here but in the mean time he must rather remain in jail. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Myburgh could you please come forward. Is there any reason why you think you must be present here for the rest of this hearing?

MR MYBURGH: Yes Mr Chairperson I am being implicated by some of the applicants here and as they give evidence I make notes where I am implicated and incriminated.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you going to do about it?

MR MYBURGH: There could later be some actions that could be taken by myself. Currently I'm planning certain actions.

CHAIRPERSON: It may be so but those actions that you are planning have got nothing to do with the Committee, or am I wrong?

MR MYBURGH: It has got.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you planning to do regarding the Committee?

MR MYBURGH: Well if the Committee can ensure that I receive all the records then it won't be necessary for me to be present.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not asking this, what are you going to do about the allegations, concerning the Committee?

MR MYBURGH: I can put it to you in this many words, I will act as a witness for some of the applicants and that the people who serve in front of this Committee and applied for amnesty are here, they are pawns in a game, they were manipulated and misused. There will be further action taken to expose betrayal or elements of betrayal.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not worried about that, all that I would like to know is why do you think it is necessary for you to be here concerning this hearing?

MR MYBURGH: Well to hear where I am implicated and where some of the commanders are implicated or incriminated if I can say it in so many words.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes that's a private matter so you've got no interest in what happens in the hearing concerning the Committee and the Committee's work, is that not true?

MR MYBURGH: But I've got interest in what is being said.

CHAIRPERSON: What can you do about it?

MR MYBURGH: Like I said, actions will follow.

CHAIRPERSON: Concerning the Committee?

MR MYBURGH: No, concerning the allegations and statements that are made.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to come to the Committee and do something about what has been said?

MR MYBURGH: Not this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. He is then not needed at this hearing. We adjourn - well I assume that the request came for only the present witness to be led out of order. I would assume that we'd go back to the original plans. If there's time to go on to another witness tomorrow.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman I know it's difficult and one doesn't want to stop the various legal teams presenting their cases in their best way, but we have a situation where we have ten applicants. Each have made substantial applications setting out the facts of the applications. We have spent the better part, if not the whole day, listening to the evidence in chief.

I know in other hearings throughout the country in light of matters where the applicants have simply under oath confirmed what they've said in their applications, confirmed their statements and here and there embellished or enlarged, leaving the bulk of the work to the cross-examiner. I plant it as a seed of thought that possibly on that basis we can get through ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) to insist on any applicant being led in a particular way. If however there's a manner in which you can come to an arrangement amongst yourselves, that's your matter but the panel is not in a position to make any ruling in that regard. Settled? Now, is that all you want to raise?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I simply raised it as a thought to consider before we adjourn, I didn't expect a ruling. Thank you, I hear what the Committee has said.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll then adjourn until half past nine tomorrow.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION: 19TH JUNE 1998 - DAY 3

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] some confusion as to what the recent applicant is actually applying for. Now hopefully that is sorted out in the near future but yesterday I sort of indicated to Mr Landman while he was cross-examining that he had made his point. I donít know if that is the reason why he immediately stopped his cross-examination.

Now with the new developments it may be necessary for me to give him another opportunity if he so desires but that will depend on what the outcome of the investigation as to what the amnesty application is all about.

MICROPHONES SWITCHED OFF

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair I undertake to brief Mr Landman over the course of the weekend about developments that have taken place today and on his behalf I request that should it become necessary he be allowed to continue.

CHAIRPERSON: We can always recall the applicant. Mrs Van Der Walt are you happy with that kind of arrangement?

MS VAN DER WALT: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie you are still under oath to tell the truth?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL (con)

Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Fourie, yesterday afternoon when we ended we were busy with the braaivleis fighters. Let us leave that aspect there for the moment. I would like to take you back, you were called up to Ventersdorp where you would establish your Volkstaat, approximately the 10th April.

MR FOURIE: We were called up. Could you please repeat your question?

MR KRIEL: 10 April 1994 you were called up to Ventersdorp where you would establish your Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is true.

MR KRIEL: You then went to Cliffie Barnardís farm, was that Koesterfontein?

MR FOURIE: No, Mr Chairperson it was only a few kilometres out of Ventersdorp.

MR KRIEL: But was that Cliffie Barnardís farm?

MR FOURIE: Yes, as far as I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you hold on a second please. Will all those who are not using the microphones just turn the volume completely down because we tend to get the echoes. Thank you.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Sir, you went to Cliffie Barnardís farm and that was with the wives and the children?

MR FOURIE: That is correct, yes.

MR KRIEL: This farm was not suitable for the children and wives and the children and wives then went to Jan De Wetís farm?

MR FOURIE: That is correct, yes.

MR KRIEL: Did you at any time stay over at Barnardís farm, Koesterfontein?

MR FOURIE: Before we took the women away, yes, that is correct.

MR KRIEL: Did you see any explosives there?

MR FOURIE: No, none Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: The men were then divided from the women and were sent to the game farm?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR KRIEL: Do you understand the difference, I assume, between political rhetoric and orders and instructions?

MR FOURIE: How do you mean, what do you mean?

MR KRIEL: Do you understand the difference between political rhetoric and orders?

MS BOSMAN: Mr Kriel, maybe you should just describe the word rhetoric.

MR KRIEL: Let me put it this way. The leader addressed different meetings?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And at these meetings he told you about the future and the past etc?

MR FOURIE: That is correct, yes.

MR KRIEL: But at those meetings he did not give you direct orders? The orders came from within your own structure, in other words the person just above you?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson his speeches at the meetings, one would say that he spoke in such a way at the meetings that it was, it sounded like things that had to be done and will be done in the future and I think most of the people understood it in that way.

MR KRIEL: But how did you understand it Sir?

MR FOURIE: I understood it the way he talked about it, I understood that the things are in a terrible condition in this country.

MR KRIEL: So everything that he said, you accepted as an order?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Sir you received an order to go to the game farm. What would you have done at that game farm?

MR FOURIE: We had to protect the farmers, provide security.

MR KRIEL: Because of that you then went on patrol?

MR FOURIE: Yes, amongst other things.

MR KRIEL: On this Saturday, why did you go on patrol, to prevent what? Why did you go on patrol? To prevent what?

MR FOURIE: To see if everything is in order in the area where the farmers were.

MR KRIEL: What does that entail?

MR FOURIE: That entails that they are safe. That the farmers would not be hindered and if we do see something, for example, things or vehicles which doesnít belong there, then we can report back. And I assume it is to ensure that the area is safe.

MR KRIEL: Of what? From whom?

MR FOURIE: For attacks on the farmers. I assumed it was attacks against the farmers because the specific person whose game farm this was has already been attacked earlier. He told us himself.

MR KRIEL: Saturday 23rd April 1994, Cliffie Barnard arrived at the game farm. Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes. It was the 24th of April, it was a Saturday.

MR KRIEL: At that stage Koekemoer was already with you on the farm?

MR FOURIE: Let me just get the story in order. When we drove from Ventersdorp to the game farm Koekemoer did arrive with us.

MR KRIEL: That was between the 10th and 14th April of that year, the 10th and the 15th April?

MR FOURIE: It was from Ventersdorp to the game farm, that is where I saw him. I did not see him before that, if that is your question?

MR KRIEL: On what date did you go to this game farm or what was the date?

MR FOURIE: Iím not sure what the dates were Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: That was put to you, that it had to be between the 10th and 15th April of that year, do you agree or is it another date?

MR FOURIE: Now I understand, yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: So Koekemoer was with you at the game farm from the time of approximately the 15th until the 23rd April 1994?

MR FOURIE: No he was only there that evening when we got there at the game farm and then he left with Barnard.

MR KRIEL: Was it the same evening when he arrived there?

MR FOURIE: Yes. That is when Barnard said that I must go to Koekemoer.

MR KRIEL: Did Koekemoer arrive there on the latest the 15th?

MR FOURIE: I cannot remember the dates Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Let me try and ask it this way. We know that in terms of your evidence, Page 133, Paragraph 22, we know that on Saturday 23rd April Cliffie Barnard arrived there.

MR FOURIE: That evening?

MR KRIEL: I do not know when that was, thatís when he was looking for the explosive expert?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that was the evening when we arrived at the game farm.

MR KRIEL: Good, that was the 23rd, Saturday?

MR MALAN: Iím sorry Mr Kriel, Iím lost at the moment because youíre talking about the 10th to the 15th of April but the witness and the evidence shows that it was the 23rd April regarding Koekemoer. I think he said that he only saw him on one evening and that was the 23rd April. Can you just explain to us where the 15th comes in and what the importance of that date is?

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson. The applicant indicated that approximately the 10th he went to Ventersdorp when they were called up. The main call up instructions were for the 15th or the 14th and 15th they gathered there, they went to Koesterfontein, from Koesterfontein they separated and the men went to the game farm.

MS BOSMAN: You make a mistake. They were in Vredasdorp then they went to Cliffie Barnardís farm. Cliffie Barnardís farm is not Koesterfontein. Koper Myburghís parentsí farm is Koesterfontein and thatís where the confusion comes in.

INTERPRETER: The speakerís microphone.

MR KRIEL: How long were you at the game farm?

MR FOURIE: From I think the Friday evening we arrived there. I cannot remember, I think it was a Tuesday morning we went to the shooting range.

INTERPRETER: Iím sorry the interpreters cannot hear the speaker.

MR FOURIE: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You need to repeat that the interpreters didnít hear the question before the last one.

MR KRIEL: What I would like to ascertain is, when did Koekemoer arrive at the game farm?

MR FOURIE: That evening when we arrived at the game farm.

MR KRIEL: Good, that was the Friday then?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR KRIEL: Friday the 22nd of April?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR KRIEL: Did you know Koekemoer before hand?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not know him in the same way I knew the people under me.

MR KRIEL: No, weíre not asking you how you knew him but did you know him before the 22nd?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not know him. No Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Was that the first day that you saw him?

MR FOURIE: That they tell me that heís Koekemoer, yes.

MR KRIEL: Have you seen him before? Even though you did not know his name was Koekemoer?

MR FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Where was that?

MR FOURIE: That was with the Ystergarde, actions of protection.

MR KRIEL: Mr Koekemoer was he member of the Wen Kommando or the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: The way I understood it he was a member of the Ystergarde.

MR KRIEL: Were you also a member of the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I was a Commandant in the Ystergarde Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Tell me then how is it then that the people do not know each other?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson we were in different districts.

MR KRIEL: Was he in your district?

MR FOURIE: No, Mr Chairperson. And the way in which I understood it, he fell under Ventersdorp area and he was one of the last candidates who qualified during that period.

ADV GCABASHE: You did not know anything about Koekemoerís expertise at that stage did you?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: If we can then go to the Sunday evening, the 24th April?

MR FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: That specific evening, if I understand it correctly Koper Myburgh and others arrived there and they asked you to organise a meeting, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I was asked to attend a meeting Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Were you not asked to bring the people together?

MR FOURIE: No, I misunderstood the question. I thought it was where we talked with the Generals and out of that meeting or in that meeting I was asked to gather the members together outside for Dupee.

MR KRIEL: I donít understand, did you attend the meeting or did you call this meeting together?

MR MALAN: The witness said there were two meetings. The first meeting was of Officers which he had to attend after that meeting it was a broader meeting where he got the instructions to talk to Colonel Dupee and gather all the people together for a public discussion. If you talk about a meeting please indicate what meeting youíre talking about.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Let us continue to the second meeting of Sunday evening, that meeting. Did you bring the people together, call them together?

MR FOURIE: Yes. I was told to call the people together for Commandant Dupee outside. I was on my way to do it, Iíve already spoken to the people but during that same time Johan Smit who at that stage was a Major, he shouted to the people that they must go outside, that Commandant Dupee wants to speak to them.

MR KRIEL: I accept that you were not present at the second meeting?

MR FOURIE: No, I was not permanently present Mr Chairperson, so I do not know everything that happened.

MR KRIEL: Why not? It is an important meeting. The members must be addressed. Why were you not present?

MR FOURIE: I say that I was not permanently present at this meeting but Commandant Dupee was in charge of the meeting.

MR KRIEL: Why were you not permanently present at such an important meeting?

MR FOURIE: Because I already knew what will be discussed at that meeting, if that is the answer what you looking for.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Now which meeting did you address where you were explaining the admin, the household procedures, was it the first or the second? I understood it to be the second meeting.

MR FOURIE: Please repeat Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You addressed one of those meetings to explain all the household admin procedures because you had been appointed in charge of household matters. Thatís what I understand. If you look at Volume 2, Page, thereís a 9 and a 59, 9 really is what weíre looking at, Volume 2. Go to Page 15, that should be where we find it. Paragraph 17, "beskuldige nege", was that not yourself as Camp Commandant. You were introduced as Camp Commandant and you were asked to speak to people about, just household matters because you were now head of household admin matters. If this did happen, which meeting was this that you addressed? If Iím not incorrect in saying you are number 9, you were number 9 in the case?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson. I was accused number 9. I was introduced to the people as the Camp Commandant. I did not convey that to them myself. I was in charge of the guards, services and Commandant Dupee was introduced as the Commandant of Operations. Is that what you would like to know Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: So when you explained the rules of the Camp to the members, was that in one of those two meetings which Mr Kriel referred to?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that another opportunity, was it another time?

MR FOURIE: I went to each one of them and I told them that this is what we expect of them. Weíre not children and I do not want to talk about it again and thatís how things are going to be.

ADV GCABASHE: So can you explain to us when is it that you addressed the membership? The people who were gathered there, if it was not at one of these two meetings. Was it before these two meetings or after these two meetings? Just help us understand this.

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, when I addressed a group of people, that was when the Natalers arrived there, the people from Natal. And they were welcomed by General Nico Prinsloo. That was outside of the hall when they arrived there and he said to them, he told them who Commandant Dupee is. He was the Commandant of Operations and Commandant A B Fourie is the Commandant, is the Camp Commandant and Iím in charge of that and then I spoke to them and I showed them where the rubbish dumps were and things like that.

ADV GCABASHE: So this was on the morning of the 25th April?

MR FOURIE: Ja, thatís when the Natalers arrived there Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What the panel member just said, that was allegations made by the State. This witness did not give evidence in front of the Commission when he addressed the people. It was the statements of the State. I just want to put it on Record.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

ADV GCABASHE: Heís quite correct in what he says now. Itís when the Natalians arrived that he did address the people. So I was trying to put it all together to try and find out which meetings weíre talking about and what his participation was in all of those meetings. So what he has said now Ms Van Der Walt is exactly what he had said yesterday. Iím satisfied with that.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. The Sunday night there were two meetings. You say that you did not attend the second meeting because you already knew what was going to be said, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Thatís correct. I was not permanently present.

MR KRIEL: Because you knew what was going to be said?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR KRIEL: What would have been said?

MR FOURIE: In the meeting where we were together, before these other people were called together, Koper Myburgh in the presence of Nico Prinsloo and also in the presence of Brigadier Leon Van Der Merwe he said that the pipe bombs, the people at the game farm must be involved with the pipe bombs and it should be distributed amongst them.

MR KRIEL: So you were aware of the pipe bombs which would have been built or which would have been thrown or which would have been used?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And you reconciled yourself with that?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: I also note that these groups that were put together there was a Gert Fourie. Is that family of yours?

MR FOURIE: Thatís my brother Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Did you also discuss this with him? The pipe bombs that is.

MR FOURIE: He told me that he was going to Pretoria.

MR KRIEL: And did he tell you that he was going to take pipe bombs to Pretoria?

MR FOURIE: He said he was going with the men. He was appointed to go with them.

MR KRIEL: And did he tell you what they were going to do with the pipe bombs?

MR FOURIE: He did tell me.

MR KRIEL: What would they have done with them?

MR FOURIE: They must go and detonate those pipe bombs in Pretoria.

MR KRIEL: Did he say where and what the target was?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Were you not interested in the target?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson. I assumed that they knew what they were supposed to do.

MR KRIEL: Just a few more questions. After Rustenberg you returned to the head office of the AWB and you spoke to the leader there, is that correct? And he made rude remarks with regards to the colleagues or with regards to his staff?

MR FOURIE: Thatís correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: How did you feel with regard to your leaders at that stage?

MR FOURIE: I was as surprised as he was that the men who were supposed to arrange things and if the leaders were so shocked and the expressions he used and I thought what would happen to our men.

MR KRIEL: And then you went on the run?

MR FOURIE: Thatís correct Chairperson. When we left there we went around another farm where we were told the people were arrested on the shooting range and from there we went on the run.

MR KRIEL: Yesterday you indicated that you are no longer a member of the AWB?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And no longer of the Ysterbrigarde either?

MR FOURIE: I was never again involved with any of that Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Why is it then that you still have this identity document and you carry it around with you?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson I consulted with my advocate and said, we talked about the identity document and it was necessary for me to submit it Committee and I brought it from my house.

MR KRIEL: So you do not carry it around with you, you only brought it as an exhibit?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson. My real documents, the proper ID documents I have in my pocket every day.

MR KRIEL: The leader, Eugene Terreblanche, is not willing to assist you with your application, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: I do not know what his idea is Chairperson. I must fight for myself and my family now.

MR KRIEL: What is your current thoughts of the then leader?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson I had much greater respect for him then.

MR KRIEL: And now?

MR FOURIE: I do not know what to think. Itís difficult when you believed in people and they let you down, then itís difficult. I do not know what to say. I feel really bad about it.

MR KRIEL: If you do not know what to say, why do you feel bad?

MR FOURIE: I do not know what expression to use Chairperson. I donít want to be insulting towards others.

MR KRIEL: Do you still respect him?

MR FOURIE: I just hope that one day heíll come to the front and he will accept responsibility in front of this Committee.

MR KRIEL: The question is really how do you feel about him now? Thatís why Iím asking. Do you still respect him?

MR FOURIE: I do not feel towards him the way I felt towards him in the past.

MR KRIEL: But how do you feel about him?

MR FOURIE: How can I say. Between a parent and a child, I feel like an orphan, if I can use that expression, if that would satisfy you.

MR KRIEL: He sold you out? He gave you away?

MR FOURIE: Thatís how I feel Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: I want you to use stronger words, heís a coward?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Sir.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I place on record, and I didnít know when the opportune time was to hand up the statement but I circulated copies of a statement provided by Attorneys Van Niekerk who are the attorneys for Mr Eugene Terreblanche. The indication from that attorney, Mr Van Niekerk was that Mr Terreblanche will not be attending in person hence the provision of his, I think two or three paragraph statement, five paragraph statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you read on that, what is the status of that document?

MR PRIOR: Yes. It certainly, well it canít be cross-examined but I place on record that was the indication to me as Evidence Leader that Mr Terreblanche will not be coming and he sent through an affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: So be it.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Fourie, I just want to understand your evidence well. When you responded to the call up apparently to move to the Western Transvaal it seems to me the main aim was to go and establish the Volkstaat, is that impression correct?

MR FOURIE: I did not go there to found the Volkstaat, that was the responsibility of the leaders but the Volkstaat would have been established there, then it was my purpose to protect it.

CHAIRPERSON: But you would have lived there?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the political objective was to obtain this Volkstaat, to live there and to protect it?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you. And to the extent that you then mention that you regarded yourself being in a war situation? Would it then be within the same context, that you wanted, you were at war with those who were at war with your idea of establishing a Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: Thatís correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: And maybe leaving that point for a moment. As a member of the Ystergarde, would it be fair to say to you that seeing that this was the elite unit within the AWB you would be expected to be in touch with what were the policies, the principles of the AWB?

MR FOURIE: [no English translation]

MR MOTLAUNG: [no English translation]. What they stood for.

MR FOURIE: What was the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie in that book you submitted yesterday, the first two pages I think, there you will find the policy of the AWB.

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the question is, did you know that?

MR FOURIE: I read it many years ago, so I read it a long time ago. I read it when I joined the AWB and I signed a form for my identity document.

INTERPRETER: Speakerís microphone is not on.

MR MOTLAUNG: Now, as far as your knowledge of the policies, principles etc., of the AWB went and from the things that were said in meetings, either open public meetings or meetings where only officers could attend, was it ever the policy of the AWB to kill or maim innocent civilians or even damage their property?

MR FOURIE: What we were told to do, when you believe in the AWB is that what you are asking me?

MR MOTLAUNG: Iím sorry, it seems weíre at crossed lines. Iím asking you, from your knowledge of what the AWB stood for, itís policies, principles etc., and from the things that were said in meetings of whatever nature, was it ever the policy of the AWB to kill, maim or injure innocent civilians or damage their property?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson if you want an answer, that you just go into the street, assault people, it shouldnít be like that. But when your life was threatened and you had to defend yourself, in those cases itís a completely different set up.

MR MOTLAUNG: Now having regarded yourself as being in a war situation, who would you have identified as the enemy?

MR FOURIE: In a war situation where war was already declared.

CHAIRPERSON: I think youíd better define that war you referred to.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Maybe I should start by asking the applicant to describe to me what was his impression of a war. What was your understanding of this war? What type of war was this?

MS BOSMAN: Perhaps you could put it more simply. Against who did the AWB and the Volksfront wage a war?

MR FOURIE: Against the people who were opposed to our principles Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: And who were these people who were opposed to your policies or principles?

MR FOURIE: I suppose thatís the people who did not come with us, who did not want us to have a Volkstaat and those people who wanted an election where the ANC would come into power against us.

MR MOTLAUNG: Is it your evidence that any person who didnít trek with you to the Western Transvaal, youíd regard as an enemy?

MR FOURIE: Thatís how I saw it Chairperson because that 40 thousand people would have joined us, would have been the people who wanted the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Most of the people you thought who would be in favour of the Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: I canít hear you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the most amount of people at that time you think would have been in favour of a Volkstaat, or the establishment of a Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, as I understood it, with regards to the amount of members in the AWB, we were given an amount and there were six figures, so that would be more than one hundred thousand, six figures.

CHAIRPERSON: Letís say, at the most it would have been a bit less than a million. Did you then think at that time, letís make it a million people. The rest of the people in this country, were they then the enemy?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: In this war of which youíre speaking?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, that could have been the case but I believe not in amounts or figures because a lot of people said the ANC would walk over us but I did not believe in the amount of people that would have created a victory. I believe the Almighty God, if the Almighty God was on our side we would be victorious. So if a hundred thousand men, nobody would stand a chance against us.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you. Am I then understanding you correctly that as far as you were concerned, once you were in the Western Transvaal anywhere the Volkstaat would be, anybody outside would be regarded by yourselves as a legitimate target?

MR FOURIE: I do not want to answer you incorrect but could you please repeat the question in order for me to understand what you want?

MR MOTLAUNG: Do I understand you correctly that once you were in the Western Transvaal where the Volkstaat would be, would it be fair to say that you would then regard any other person, irrespective of colour or location, as long as that person is outside the Western Transvaal where the Volkstaat would be, you would regard that person as a legitimate target?

MR FOURIE: In that case can I put my answer as follows, in that case we did not have a Volkstaat. We were provided with a Volkstaat. In other words, the others who did not march up with us were those who criticised us for our Volkstaat and did not want to give it to us and they were our enemy.

MR MOTLAUNG: Is it not correct Sir, that you never expected any black person to trek with you to the Western Transvaal? In fact you actively discouraged them from doing so? Is that not so Sir?

MR FOURIE: No I do not understand your question.

CHAIRPERSON: In this Volkstaat, would it have been possible that a black person could live and work in that area?

MR FOURIE: Iíve got nothing against that. If they can just provide us with a life, he could have come to work for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he have the right to vote in that Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: The right to vote we cannot provide him, that is in what we believe. That in his own area he can have a say that he has got a person from his own group. For example, a Zulu governs a Zulu, Xhosa governs a Xhosa and we have our own leader who governs his own people.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it as follows. If it would have been established and black people had their own area, would a member of the AWB have the right to go and look for work from a black person?

MR FOURIE: Would a member of the AWB, did he have the right to go and work for a black person? If he believed it, yes he could.

CHAIRPERSON: What would happen with his membership in the AWB?

MR FOURIE: Nobody talked about what would happen to such a person.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why I ask this question is, in the guidelines in that book that you quoted earlier on.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Letís move to the Germiston bombing. From your answers regarding the Bree Street bombing, it seems to me your evidence would be that as far as that bomb is concerned, you had no knowledge about it, that it was going to be planted, you never played any role in that action, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct. I did not know about the planning of the bomb.

MR MOTLAUNG: And as far as the pipe bombs are concerned, you say that you knew that they would be used, correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct.

MR MOTLAUNG: According to you Sir, how would they be used? Who would be attacked, using these bombs?

MR FOURIE: No, that was not told to us.

MR MOTLAUNG: What would be your understanding yourself?

MR FOURIE: Those pipe bombs had to be placed in order to create chaos, to disrupt the elections that would take place because everybody realised thereís nothing to stop the ANC from coming into power because they are a majority or would stand against the ANC and vote because we already saw that people were intimidated to gain what they wanted.

MR MOTLAUNG: But talking about the sowing of that chaos. How would you go about sowing that chaos? What was your understanding? For example go to a crèche or a nursery where school children are and plant the bomb or to a church where people are praying, plant the bomb?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, in a political struggle I saw that if you wanted to enforce something then certain lives would be lost.

MR MOTLAUNG: But Sir, is it not fair to say that, as a trained soldier, I would agree with your statement partly that there are times when certain innocent lives have to be lost by merely being caught in the cross fire but itís not really intended for them. Was that not your understanding?

MR FOURIE: Iím not quite sure what you want from me. Could you please clarify your question?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, in a war situation, the lives of civilians, not the target? It is accepted that those lives could during a war be taken or, but they are not really the target. What do you say about that?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, as I said yesterday it is unfortunately in such a case, they call it casualties of war.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that but the question is, do you agree with the statement that ordinary people are not the target in a war? Or they should not be the target.

MR FOURIE: Unfortunately it did happen that they were the target.

MS BOSMAN: Mr Fourie, I think what the legal representative is asking to you is that when you fight in a war, you go for a specific group, you target a specific group, and when you go for this target you, they way you call it also have casualties of war. Do you understand that distinction? Let me give you an example, if you go to a school where there is children with the intention that the children would die in that bombing then they are a target but when you go to a school to blow up the building and there were children that you did not know of and they died then they would be casualties of war. So then you must make that distinction.

MR FOURIE: Yes, now I understand it.

MS BOSMAN: The question that is put to you is, if the intention was that their target must be anybody or that the people or the ordinary people were killed during this targeting of a certain group of people?

MR FOURIE: No I do not really understand.

MS BOSMAN: I suggest that in the light of my explanation of the two differences that you perhaps could just put your question to the witness again. I donít think that I particularly put that as well to him.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Fourie, I think I can, but, merely repeat the question and I hope you understand it this time. That it is fair, I accept it that you can talk of the so-called casualties of war, but the point is, there is definitely a difference, I submit, between your actual target and the unfortunate casualty of a war situation. Do you understand that difference?

MR FOURIE: I believe Mr Chairperson that if you wanted to create chaos, like I said must happen, then anybody can be involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way, letís say there was a decision in the offices of the ANC in Johannesburg to blow up Johannesburg. That is now the target. And before a building or in front of this building a group of people walk past. The target would be the building and the ANC members. Not necessarily the people who walked outside but we assume that they can be hit in the process of blowing up this building and it is in that light that this question is put to you. Do you understand it now?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motlaung, can you repeat the question there?

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Do you now understand the distinction between the two? The actual target and the unfortunate casualty?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words the casualties of war would be the people who walked outside this building or in front of the building, not the building or the people inside the building. Do you understand?

MR FOURIE: The message that had to be conveyed to disrupt the election.

CHAIRPERSON: We can deal with that later. Weíre not talking about the message. The question is simple. Do you understand the distinction?

MR FOURIE: No, I do not understand the distinction.

MR MALAN: Mr Fourie if I understand you correctly, then you are saying that the target was anybody it doesnít matter who was hit. The distinction that the people are looking for here is the unfortunate victims but you did not make that distinction. You thought that anybody who was killed in that explosion, you did not look for a specific group. Now the question of Mr Motlaung was, if you chose a school with children, if that was the command or order it had to be done.

But I think the question was put to you in terms of a policy. You would not think it would be policy to blow up a school with school children or a church?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: That was the two specific examples. Iím asking this to you but whoever was hit, you did not care? I think that was what you wanted.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Fourie, is it your evidence that when you attended some meeting, Iím referring this particular instance to Paragraph 15 of your Application, Page 130. At the certain meeting there was also these highly placed.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you. You have it? Paragraph 15, can you see there?

MR FOURIE: Thatís correct yes.

MR MOTLAUNG: At the meeting that you are referring to in that paragraph, you were told that the army and the police were ready to assist you in the establishment of the Volkstaat, correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct. That is how it was conveyed to us.

MR MOTLAUNG: Did you believe it Sir? What was said to you.

MR FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you this?

MR FOURIE: General Etsabeth said it at the meeting but where we were present at Brigadier Chris Van Den Heeverís when we were under the trees, or he repeated what was said by the Generals and to bring it under the attention of the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it as follows Mr Fourie. Is it also true that you believed that in the leadership of the AWB when they promise you that such a Volkstaat would exist, that is now the Generals and the leadership, whoever, over a period of time?

MR FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you believed them?

MR FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Now who was this highly placed officer of the Defence Force who was there?

MR FOURIE: This Brigadier Chris Van Den Heever. I did not see an officer in uniform but this Brigadier Chris Van Den Heever who was the Colonel of the Special Forces. I knew that in the South African Defence Force he was involved in the Defence Force.

CHAIRPERSON: What rank did he have in the Defence Force?

MR FOURIE: Iím not sure. I think he was a staff sergeant or something like that.

MR MALAN: Was he still involved with the army whilst this meeting took place?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, I do not know whether he retired from the army.

MR MALAN: I do not know how to switch this off. Iím not going to ask anymore questions. Can the technical people just have a look at this?

MR MOTLAUNG: Now Sir apart from the things that were said to you, did I understand you correctly that you were also under the impression that having in mind the numbers that were being mentioned, the six digit numbers about the force that you heard, you were convinced that this was a war that you would definitely win? No one could come right against you?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Now Sir, if that is correct, can you explain to me please? Why would you regard it as being necessary to go beyond the Volkstaat where you can patrol it, make it safe, you know you have the army behind you, you have the police behind you, why would it then be necessary to go outside, Iím talking about places like Germiston, Johannesburg, and attack the people who were there, who are nowhere next to you or posing any threat to you?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, we did not yet have a Volkstaat. Nobody told us this is your Volkstaat, this is where you can stay.

MR MOTLAUNG: Because, in conclusion, I want to suggest to you that you people went beyond all conceivable limits. You knew that you had an army behind you, you had the police, you already were in the Western Transvaal. You were already patrolling and you could have defended yourselves against any danger that approaches you, but you go out and you attack innocent civilians.

Iím suggesting to you that this cannot be condoned under whatever circumstances. Even under war situation.

MR FOURIE: Chairperson I did not patrol all of the Western Transvaal and knew whether all the people were there as was promised. I was on the game farm and thatís a small little area and we drove out of the game farm and we drove a few kilometres to Magalies. I did not know if the other guys were behind us as promised, is that what you want to know?

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLAUNG

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRACHER: Mr Fourie, earlier you spoke of our men, were you one of the men?

MR FOURIE: The Ystergarde or the men at the game farm?

MR BRACHER: No, you spoke about the leaders and the men. Were you a leader or one of the men?

MR FOURIE: I was one of the officers Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Whereís that, a leader or a men?

MR FOURIE: No, then I would have been one of the men. I was an officer.

MR BRACHER: And you were chief commandant of the Wencommando, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That was the case before I was called up to Western Transvaal. When I left Johannesburg I was no longer their chief commandant of the Wencommando.

MR BRACHER: You were a commandant in the Ystergarde and you were also the commandant at the camp at the game farm? Thereís nobody in the AWB who takes responsibility. And what were your words yesterday? It seems to me you, who were a commandant bites as much dust as the Generals, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: No I did not eat dust. I was amongst the people.

MR BRACHER: The moment you decided, "I now realised that we had started the struggle", thatís what you say in Paragraph 28. The moment you realised that or decided that, you went to visit your wife and you never returned, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Where must I return to if the men were arrested? Then I must go back and be taken into custody or be arrested and then I mean nothing to the nation.

MR BRACHER: But you lied in front of the Criminal Court, you said that during that meeting we spoke about pipe bombs. You said you were ill and nobody woke you up, thatís what you said in Court, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: I cannot remember that I said that I was ill and nobody woke me up.

MR BRACHER: But you took medicine?

MR FOURIE: Yes I was under medication.

MR BRACHER: Can I just read this? He says he was using medicine but the chance is almost zero that everybody would be woken up except him because such a pipe bomb mission was planned and would be executed without informing the commandant of the camp. And you said you didnít know anything about the pipe bombs in the Criminal Court, that when you said that.

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, now we get to the actual point.

MR BRACHER: I hope so.

MR FOURIE: In the Ystergarde you take an oath that you would not betray your people and if you turn your back on them you should be shot. I carried my pride. I didnít want to betray any of my people. Koekemoer made statements and he did certain things because he received payment. I was rather willing to go and sit in prison than betray my people.

MR BRACHER: Mr Fourie, you lied in order not to go to prison. You bit the dust, did you not? Is that correct? It wasnít that you did not talk, it was the fact that you lied to stay out of prison. Do you have an answer to that?

MR FOURIE: Then it is so Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: I just want to put it on Record that this is quoted from the evidence which he gave in the criminal proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Now thatís the second time itís put on Record.

MR BRACHER: Yesterday you changed your evidence with regard to the meeting between yourself and Clifton Barnard on the game farm on Saturday the 23rd April and the 24th and on Page 133, Paragraph 22, you said originally while you were on the game farm on Saturday 23rd April 1994 Clifton Barnard asked me who was an expert in explosives and I suggested Pieter Koekemoer, I introduced him to Pieter Koekemoer. Thatís your version in writing, is it not?

MS VAN DER WALT: It was amended.

MR BRACHER: Yes, I know that. Thatís before you amended it. Thatís what you said in a written statement under oath?

MR FOURIE: I just corrected this, that it should be the way itís supposed to be Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now letís get to the point in order not to waste time. You signed your statement after you had read through it, is that not correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes I did read it.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were satisfied that that was the correct version, thatís before you signed it? Is that the truth or not?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson, itís the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the important question is this, when you went through this, before you signed it and you read it as the truth, why didnít you correct it then?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, as I read through this thing and after a while, when I read it through again, certain things came back to me. I remembered certain things and thatís why it was changed or amended. It was a long time ago that these things happened and briefly it was the way things happened. But as time went by I remembered certain other things and during the consultation also.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Sir.

MR BRACHER: Your memory is not too good. Barnard says and itís on Page 15, Paragraph 23,

"I asked Abie Fourie who was at the game farm who knew Johannesburg well and who was an expert in explosives. I was given two members, Etienne Le Roux who knew Joíburg well and Koekemoer who was an expert in explosives."

Can you see that? Can you see that you were involved in that decision? Thatís what Barnard says.

MR FOURIE: Which Paragraph is that?

MR BRACHER: Itís Page 15, Paragraph 23. Can you see that?

MR FOURIE: Chairperson, this incident took place at Cliffieís farm. Clifton Barnard asked me in the presence of the others and he asked me to find out who knew Johannesburg well and then Etienne Le Roux answered and said that he knew Johannesburg well.

MR BRACHER: And what about the fact that as you suggested Koekemoer to him as being an expert in explosives?

MR FOURIE: That happened at the game farm Chairperson, when he said to me, I must go and ask Koekemoer if he knows explosives and then send him to him.

MR BRACHER: Just look on Page 38, Paragraph 29, thatís Myburghís version.

"We went to the game farm at Magaliesberg where the other members were gathered. Barnard then asked Abie Fourie who was commandant of the camp who knew Johannesburg well and who was an expert in explosives and two members were given to him,"

etc., can you see that?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson, thatís not the way it happened.

MR BRACHER: And Page 60, Paragraph 19, thatís the original version of Mr Le Roux. Thatís exactly the same words heís using and this is all put together by your own advocate, is that true?

CHAIRPERSON: That was also an amended paragraph.

MR BRACHER: Yes I know but it seems to me that in May certain things were remembered which are different today when it suites them. What do you say about that? Do you say the other versions are incorrect?

MR FOURIE: At the game farm Chairperson it did not happen the way itís written down here. There where me and Cliffie walked, he said to me or he told me that he was looking for a man who knew Johannesburg well and Etienne Le Roux was in the company then.

MS VAN DER WALT: I do think I must make objection to the remark that was made. Itís quite evident that the applicant, Mr Le Roux testified that together they consulted, certain mistakes were pointed out and it was corrected. Now if this was an absolute mistake or contradiction, the one said ĎAí planted the bomb in Johannesburg and the other one said ĎBí planted the bomb, then such a remark might be justified but really this is not important and the applicants came to you and honestly told you that a mistake was made.

Itís things that happened a long time ago, the people forget certain things and surely I donít think itís necessary.

MR BRACHER: Mr Chairman Iíve finished with that point. Iíll deal with it in argument. Now the meeting on Page 134, Paragraph 24 of your written version. Regarding that meeting, you were in the inner circle, being an officer, it was a closed meeting.

MR FOURIE: Paragraph?

MR BRACHER: Paragraph 24, Page 134.

MR FOURIE: Iíve got it thank you.

MR BRACHER: You were part of the inner circle of officers who discussed these pipe bombs?

MR FOURIE: Sorry, what would you like to know?

MR BRACHER: You were part of the inner circle of officers who discussed the throwing of pipe bombs, you were not only one of the men who later found out about it?

MR FOURIE: Yes I was present there.

MR BRACHER: And if you say, the question of the throwing of pipe bombs were discussed which target would you have chosen?

MR FOURIE: The discussion Iím referring to here, it was discussed that the people outside had to be used, we didnít discuss who the targets would be or what the targets would be.

MR BRACHER: So the men had to decide about the targets, they had to decide it themselves?

MR FOURIE: It would have been discussed outside of the building Chairperson, it was not discussed inside.

MR BRACHER: So what was discussed outside?

MR FOURIE: There I was not permanently present so I do not know which instructions were given.

MR BRACHER: Now read the next paragraph because this differs from the evidence this morning.

"After this meeting I called together the members at the game farm, not Major Smit, me, thatís Abie Fourie, I called the members together."

Is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Thatís like Iíve said. I was told to call the men together. I went, I did that and I spoke to some of them when Major Smit shouted out to the people to go outside.

MR BRACHER: You say "I" called the people together, not Major Smit?

MR FOURIE: Thatís what I remembered later Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Just I just once again read the utterance at the Criminal Court.

Thereís a contradiction amongst the Transvalers that, thereís differences about who helped to organise with regards to the meeting at the pipe bombs and also who received the feedback.

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Was that your evidence?

MR FOURIE: It is correct.

MR BRACHER: For the Record can I say thatís Page 95, Page 3505 of the Judgment.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thatís exactly what he testified. Itís exactly what he testified to here Chairperson. There is no difference. He testified that he started to call the people together then Major Smit shouted. So he helped to get the people outside and he did say that people gave him feedback, thatís what he testified.

MR BRACHER: Mr Chairman this morning he said he didnít call the people together. He was about to when Major Smit did it. Iím not happy with that but Iíll come back to it in argument, Iíll check my notes because itís, okay. So you brought the members together or started this?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Where were you when you didnít hear what they were talking about?

MR FOURIE: I was in the area, the stoep or verandah is close where the people were.

MR BRACHER: And you helped to choose the groups, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: I beg your pardon.

MR BRACHER: You helped to choose the four groups?

MR FOURIE: No I did not help to choose them or select them.

MR BRACHER: Or select them?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Did you select anybody?

MR FOURIE: No.

MR BRACHER: Turn to Page 201, Paragraph 24, thatís your brotherís version, Gerhardus Daniel Fourie.

"With my arrival at the hall I was asked if I wanted to go with Pier Steyn and Jaco Nel, I then agreed",

Is that correct? Paragraph 24, Page 201.

MR FOURIE: It could be that. It occurred like that or happened like that.

MR BRACHER: Page back to Page 134, the end of Paragraph 23, 134, itís the last sentence of 23.

"At this stage the other Ystergarde members did not realise what the main purpose of this gathering was."

What was the main purpose of this gathering? Paragraph 23, the last sentence of 23

MR FOURIE: The last sentence? When we marched up to the game farm Mr Chairperson, then we did not know about bombs and things that will be manufactured.

MR BRACHER: Was the bombings the main purpose of the gathering?

MR FOURIE: No, it did not have anything to do with it.

MR BRACHER: Then why do you say here that itís the main purpose of the gathering?

MR FOURIE: What I mean by saying that is that what happened at Koesterfontein and how the things worked out in the end.

MR BRACHER: Was that the purpose of the gathering? To bomb innocent individuals?

MR FOURIE: I think you mean that we had to plant the bombs from there.

MR BRACHER: I want to know what you meant when you said this under oath?

MR FOURIE: We all marched up to the game farm to provide protection, that was told to us. Thatís what they said to us and then at the game farm when these explosions took place and the pipe bombs arrived there, thatís what I mean, we did not know that will happen.

MR BRACHER: What was the purpose then?

MR FOURIE: It must have been the higher ranks who planned it that way.

MR BRACHER: The higher ranks of whom?

MR FOURIE: The people or men who started it.

MR BRACHER: It was part of the Ystergarde or who?

MR FOURIE: From the Generals or the Brigadiers in the Ystergarde who may have known.

ADV GCABASHE: And when was this communicated to you? This real purpose.

MR FOURIE: Let me just hear the Afrikaans please. Could you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: When did they tell you what the main purpose was?

MR FOURIE: When the bomb exploded and the pipe bombs arrived there, then I realised what everything was about.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the main purpose of this trek, this march up to the game farm?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, just to help me here. Just give us a date and a meeting, just so I can understand exactly when this was communicated to you. Because you are now talking about after the bomb had exploded. Iím assuming thatís the Bree Street bomb and tell me if I am wrong. And the pipe bombs had arrived. So are we talking about the 24th or the 25th here?

MR MALAN: I think thereís a problem here with the interpreting and the use of Afrikaans. I heard you saying that the last sentence was, the main purpose was your awareness of what happened. So in other words it was somebody elseís agenda and for you it was said that you must do protection but it had nothing to do with that. But it seemed to you that the main purpose of the gathering was the bombs?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did anybody tell you? That is the question, did anybody tell you that this was the purpose of the gathering?

MR FOURIE: The bombs? No. That I assumed.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR BRACHER: At the game farm you built the radio masts or poles or you erected them?

MR FOURIE: Yes, it was done by Jannie Kruger.

MR BRACHER: Were you in contact with head office?

MR FOURIE: I was not busy or I had nothing to do with the radio. I do not know what was discussed but Jannie Kruger when I was there and tried to contact head office. I went to the turret and made some changes.

MR BRACHER: Was there contact with head office?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR BRACHER: Bundle A that was submitted, Page 13, thereís an article I think from Die Beeld where your headquarters on the 22nd April, they said the following. If you look at the first article, itís the seventh paragraph, Mr Rundle, Mr Fred Rundle, a member of the AWBís executive council in the seventh paragraph he said,

"We are not planning to act aggressively. If our people are attacked, we will retaliate with all the powers within the AWB."

Three lines afterwards,

"No, we will not disrupt the election. What can we do to that, physically stop the people to get to the voting polls. We will not do it because we are not kaffirs."

Can you see that?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I can see it.

MR BRACHER: That was the policy of the AWB on the 22nd April. Did you know that?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not.

MR BRACHER: Did you ever ask, you as a commandant, what the policy was or the current policy when you planted these bombs?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not. I would expect that the higher officers who were present there had to convey this to us. And that Rundle is a newspaper person, he was not involved with us.

MR BRACHER: But before you sent people to go and plant bombs, did you ask what the policy was of the leader?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson. How can I enquire if the officers sit there in the presence where the things were discussed?

MR BRACHER: The officers, did they never say to you or in front of you that you must go and bomb innocent people?

MR FOURIE: They will not say it, if they give orders or instructions to plant bombs.

MR BRACHER: Do you personally know of any specific order of the leadership of the AWB that car bombs must be used to kill innocent people?

MR FOURIE: Officers were present when these things were discussed.

MR BRACHER: The car bombs?

MR FOURIE: No, not the car bombs.

MR BRACHER: Iím talking about the car bomb, forget about the pipe bomb.

MR FOURIE: No, I did not know about the car bomb.

MR BRACHER: Do you personally know of any specific order of the AWB leadership that car bombs, as far as you know, Barnard did not have a rank within the AWB, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not know what rank he had.

MR BRACHER: If he had a rank.

MR FOURIE: He had to have a rank but I did not know what rank.

MR BRACHER: Why did he have to have a rank if he did not have a uniform on?

MR FOURIE: Because he had close contact with headquarters, with the leader of the AWB and no one worked there if they were not an officer.

MR BRACHER: How do you know that?

MR FOURIE: That was confidential information, not just anybody can work there.

MR BRACHER: Why would you then need a rank to work in an office. That was his evidence.

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I cannot give you an answer regarding that but Cliffie Barnard, you cannot say anything about him, heís a secretive person. It is difficult to place him.

MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRACHER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie you were fairly high up in the ranks of the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As it was put to you, you were third in this rank order, is that not correct? First youíve got the Brigadier.

MR FOURIE: Yes, Chairperson then the Colonel.

CHAIRPERSON: First youíve got the Brigadier then the Colonel, then the commandant?

MR FOURIE: Thatís correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were a commandant?

MR FOURIE: I knew a lot about training.

CHAIRPERSON: No, listen to the question. Why couldnít you find out anything about the people with a higher rank? What was going on? Was there a change in policy or what was going on? You were part of a meeting of the higher officers that was before they used the pipe bombs.

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, order groups were held where things were also discussed where we were not allowed.

CHAIRPERSON: But in this meeting where you were, did they mention the pipe bombs?

MR FOURIE: Yes where I was present, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you in your capacity as commandant asked what is going on?

MR FOURIE: Because in that evening when the pipe bombs were discussed, it was said that we must disrupt the election, we must create chaos.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were asked a while ago, why didnít you find out. And I did not understand your answer very well that is why Iím asking. As a commandant did you not think that you could ask questions?

MR FOURIE: You are not allowed to, you cannot question instructions from a commander above you.

CHAIRPERSON: Iím not saying that you must question it. You must just find out whatís going on. Could you not do it?

MR FOURIE: The message was already conveyed that the election must be stopped and that chaos must be created amongst the people.

MS BOSMAN: Mr Fourie can you just indicate, at that meeting of the officers, that so-called first meeting, how many people were there which had a rank higher than yours?

MR FOURIE: Three.

MS BOSMAN: Who were they? Their ranks?

MR FOURIE: Well I knew about Brigadier Leon van der Merwe, General Nico Prinsloo and Koper, I did not know what his rank was, that is Myburgh who also worked at head office.

MS BOSMAN: Did you not know what Myburghís rank was?

MR FOURIE: No I havenít asked him even up to now.

MS BOSMAN: You do not know at all what his rank is?

MR FOURIE: Up to the present, no.

MS BOSMAN: So how did you know that he was above you?

MR FOURIE: Why would he then give commands in the presence of the others? I did not know anything about his rank.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairperson, just a few questions. Mr Fourie, did you have the authority to, for example break up that camp or to tell the men there, "go home"? Could you take that decision?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson, I would not dare it.

MR PRIOR: Who would have to give you that kind of instruction or order to break up camp?

MR FOURIE: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe. It would then be conveyed by Nico Prinsloo. It had to come from him. If I did it I could have been reprimanded for it.

MR PRIOR: I would just like your comment. According to Page 19 of bundle 2, I can see in the list there, ammunition, weapons, that was confiscated by the Police. Nine parachutes were also confiscated. Did you have any knowledge about the parachutes on this farm?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I knew about the parachutes when they brought them in and I asked them what are these bags and I think it was Jannie Kruger.

MR PRIOR: How would you use these parachutes in the activities of the camp, on the game farm at that stage? Did you know?

MR FOURIE: No, I did not.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that if I understand your evidence as a whole that you all moved to the Western Transvaal with the idea of the war that would start the Volkstaat idea and that that area you would protect against any attacks? In other words, you would claim that area as a Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Do I also understand your evidence that at one stage because you did not get this Volkstaat you let go of this idea?

MR FOURIE: When we did not get the Volkstaat?

MR PRIOR: At one stage it was said to you, they will not give us a Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

MR MALAN: We are not going to get a Volkstaat. They will not give it to us.

MR FOURIE: Thank you Chairperson, I understood it that way. I just wanted some clarity.

MR PRIOR: The further developments or the plan to throw bombs or to plant bombs, was that taken, this decision, was that taken at the game farm, the pipe bomb mission?

MR FOURIE: I knew that was planned there, at the game farm Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: And otherwise it was your instructions to have patrols, to put stationed guards and to protect the farmers etc.

MR FOURIE: Yes I was part of the patrol and Major Smith, Johan Smit that is was in charge of the guards.

MR PRIOR: Can I put it to you like this, do you know, or was it maybe the case that the bomb planting and throwing of bombs was happening in revenge because you could not get what you wanted by using negotiation? In other words it was an action.

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson, I wouldnít put it like that.

MR PRIOR: Well we know that the Bree Street bomb exploded on the 24th, the Germiston one the next day and the men were sent out with the pipe bombs on the 26th of April that is?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: And you went home on the 26th and several people were given permission to go and visit their wives, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes, after we went to the shooting range we went home.

MR PRIOR: So in other words the whole camp as I understood it, except the people who stayed behind and were arrested on the 27th there were no further activities except for the Jan Smuts bomb?

MR FOURIE: Yes, I did not know about the Jan Smuts bomb.

MR PRIOR: I think the Judge described it as a reaction as well against the fact that your activities there were stopped by the police. In other words, the people who planted the bomb at Jan Smuts, did it out of revenge because the police stopped your activities?

MR FOURIE: No, Chairperson I wouldnít see it as such.

MR PRIOR: What was your last answer?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson, I wouldnít say that, that it happened because of revenge.

MR PRIOR: But you didnít even know about it?

MR FOURIE: No I did not.

MR PRIOR: So why can you say why it was planted there?

MR FOURIE: I thought he asked my opinion Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Chairperson, can I just ask a last question please. This meeting where you were present, together with the officers and you discussed the pipe bombs, was there any talk of creating total chaos?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson it was said.

MR PRIOR: And the targets or where the bombs would be planted or where they would be thrown, was that not discussed?

MR FOURIE: No, it was not discussed.

MR PRIOR: And did you also discuss peoplesí lives? That type of behaviour, the fact that through that type of behaviour people would necessarily be killed?

MR FOURIE: It was not discussed.

MR PRIOR: Was there any talk of black people who would then be the targets and by doing that youíd cause violence amongst the different races?

MR FOURIE: At that meeting you are talking about it wasnít discussed.

MR PRIOR: Was it discussed at a later gathering or meeting?

MR FOURIE: Not that I know about Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR MALAN: Thereís just one thing Iíd like to ask you, and this is regards to the bombs. You were asked quite a lot of questions with regards to the change of policy concerning the throwing of bombs, did you know of any other bombs which were thrown before?

MR FOURIE: By our people?

MR MALAN: Yes by some of your people.

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson.

MR MALAN: You mentioned Jaapie Oelofse, General Jaapie Oelofse or Mr Le Roux referred to Mr Oelofse, is this person known to you?

MR FOURIE: General Jaapie Oelofse, Iím sure I mentioned him before and I said that Brigadier Chris Van Den Heever was serving under General Jaapie Oelofse.

MR MALAN: Were you aware of the fact that General Jaapie Oelofse was already in prison at that time?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson. Thatís why I said Brigadier Chris Van Den Heever served under General Jaapie Oelofse.

MR MALAN: But didnít you see in the news that bombs were thrown?

MR FOURIE: Yes but what I understood is that you are asking me if I was aware of our people who were doing it.

MS BOSMAN: Mr Fourie when Mr Malan asked you, "your people", he meant the AWB, not your specific little group but AWB people?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Can I just understand your answer correctly then. Were you aware of it or not? Did you see in the news that bombs were thrown by right-wing people and any other place, were you aware of that or not?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson I was aware of it.

MR MALAN: So when you had to deal with the pipe bombs, do think it was the first time that pipe bombs were made by the AWB or did you think it was not the first time?

MR FOURIE: By our people, it was the first time it was made by our people.

MR MALAN: This is the group you were involved with?

MR FOURIE: Thatís correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But not necessarily in the broader AWB or Freedom Front structure?

MR FOURIE: That could be that other people were not involved with us had done it.

MR MALAN: So if I understand you correctly, it was quite a new thing that suddenly within a specific AWB set up, pipe bombs were made? Was that a completely novel idea to you or not?

MR FOURIE: No I wouldnít say it was a new idea Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But it was the first time you got into contact with bombs coming from your people?

MR FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. Just to help me Mr Fourie. The total number of people who gathered at Trim Park, let me start there. There were 70 or 70 families. I know we talked about 70. Explain the 70 to me please?

MR FOURIE: They were people in total Chairperson. Together with our wives and children.

ADV GCABASHE: Right, so the people who eventually were at the game park, before the Natalians arrived, how many were there? So thatís on the 24th, how many men were there?

MR FOURIE: Iíd estimate about 35.

ADV GCABASHE: Now add the Natalians for me. How many Natalians arrived?

MR FOURIE: There were quite a lot of them. Iíd say, if I have to make a rough estimate, Iíd say about 40.

ADV GCABASHE: So in total again we go to about 75 men, at the end of the day who were at the game park?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But this call up to move to Ventersdorp, to the Western Transvaal had gone out to the entire AWB membership, had it not?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now give me a rough estimate, I know youíve talked of six digit figures, is that the entire AWB membership you mention as roughly six digit figures?

MR FOURIE: That is the total membership of the AWB Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now did you or anyone question why such a small percentage of people turned up at Ventersdorp, so soon before the election? The question is, the election was on the 27th, my assumption is by the 23rd everybody was there? Did anybody ask, or did you ask, why so few of you had turned up?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson I did not ask that. I did not ask because the other members would have been spread around the Western Transvaal. We would have been at specific places and there would have been other members at other places.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, there would have been. Tell me as a fact, do you know if there were in fact other groupings in other parts of the Western Transvaal?

MR FOURIE: Afterwards I found out. At that stage I did not know where the other people gathered but afterwards I learned from this specific Brigadier Chris Van Den Heever who was also gathered together with his special forces.

ADV GCABASHE: You learnt that Van Den Heever had gathered somewhere else in the Western Transvaal with his special forces, is this what youíre saying?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now if you can explain those special forces to me because as I understand it Van Den Heever, to your knowledge, was still a member of the Defence Force. Are you talking of Van Den Heever as a Defence Force member or as a member of the Ystergarde?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson he was in the Wen Kommando in the Wen Kommando of the AWB.

ADV GCABASHE: So Van Den Heever was there in his capacity as a member of the AWB with his special forces? Thatís what you understood?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, do you know if they were involved as special forces in any action at all between the 23rd and the 27th April 1994?

MR FOURIE: No Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: So you really had this group of 75 people at the game park who decided that there was something they must do to, and Iím not sure about this, youíll help me Mr Fourie, either to ensure that they get a Volkstaat or to sow chaos before the election, one of the two or both?

MR FOURIE: To spread chaos. How did you put the question?

ADV GCABASHE: The reason these people were gathered in Ventersdorp and at the game park was for one of two reasons, as I understand it, or maybe both and the reasons are, one, to sow chaos before the elections and/or to ensure that you get a Volkstaat? This is why these 75 people were there?

MR FOURIE: At the beginning it was to protect the Volkstaat and then when the instruction came concerning the pipe bombs we were told to create chaos, if that is what you would like to know Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, thank you, Iím comfortable with that. Now, this change over to the creation of chaos, that came on the 24th, you understood this to be happening after hearing things on the 24th of April?

MR FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: At that point, how long did you expect to remain in the Western Transvaal?

MR FOURIE: Do you mean with that what was happening or in total?

ADV GCABASHE: No the context really is once the agenda appeared to have changed, you sensed this, that the agenda had changed from the long term goal to a short terms goal. Having realised this, how long did you expect to be located in the Western Transvaal?

MR FOURIE: I expected everybody would move up to the Western Transvaal because we would be there permanently.

ADV GCABASHE: So Nico Prinsloo, and Iím here quoting from the summary of facts in Volume 2 and I know itís not what your evidence has been but what the State put together. If you look at Page 13 of Volume 2. 15.3, these are things that Nico Prinsloo was supposed to have said when he was addressing the Natalians. And Iím looking specifically at 15.3, that sentence,

"That the people would stay there for two to three months."

MR FOURIE: Thatís how I made the conclusion, yes at that specific place.

ADV GCABASHE: Now hold on. I am saying to you this is what Nico Prinsloo is supposed to have said to the Natalians. Are you now saying that you too drew this conclusion? You also came to this conclusion? Just help me with that.

MR FOURIE: Yes, I made that conclusion Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But this is precisely why I asked you a few minutes ago Mr Fourie how long you had intended to stay in the Western Transvaal after realising the agenda had changed because I didnít want to accept, you know what Prinsloo had said as being what you believed in as well. Just help me with this.

MR FOURIE: I suspected, because we were placed in that protection unit, that we would stay in that vicinity for that period of time but in the Western Transvaal, for a longer time.

ADV GCABASHE: At this meeting with the Natalians, Nico Prinsloo didnít say anything at all about the Bree Street bomb being a bomb that one of your groupings had set off?

MR FOURIE: I cannot remember it in that way Chairperson. I knew he spoke and said that the Boer crises action already took responsibility, I think he said for a power station or something to that effect.

ADV GCABASHE: In fact if you had to look at 15.2 thatís exactly what he did say. He mentioned the Boer crises organisation. Now my question to you is, as a long standing member of this organisation, thinking about it now, wasnít it strange that Nico Prinsloo would not have used the Bree Street bombing as something with which to encourage all of you as a rallying point, saying, "come men come", weíve already started doing this. Wouldnít you have expected that?

MR FOURIE: Yes that could be Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But instead the motivation he used was something that the Boer Crises Committee may or may not have done. Again very strange.

MR FOURIE: I do not follow.

ADV GCABASHE: All Iím saying, that instead of using your own acts to motivate the men, he uses the acts of the Boer Crises Committee to motivate people, isnít this strange?

MR FOURIE: Yes, it would seem the case Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Fourie. Thanks Chair.

MR FOURIE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, if I understand your evidence correctly, you moved up to Ventersdorp with the purpose to protect this Volkstaat, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage there was not a Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I would like to understand, the establishment or founding of this Volkstaat, if I understand your evidence and you must correct me if Iím wrong, would take place in one or two ways. Either the Volkstaat would be handed over or it would be taken, am I correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes, youíre correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And this journey to Ventersdorp, the purpose of this journey was to protect this area, is that correct?

MR FOURIE: Yes, correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So the idea was that it would be established or if itís going to be given or taken, it will be established?

MR FOURIE: Yes, we believed that it would be handed over to us.

CHAIRPERSON: And you would then patrol the Western Transvaal and protect this area as a Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was your political motive or purpose or goal?

MR FOURIE: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no other reason why you wanted to go there?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure about it?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: At one stage, you were told that the elections must be stopped, can you remember your evidence?

MR FOURIE: Yes, when the pipe bombs were handed out.

CHAIRPERSON: If they succeeded in stopping the elections, what then? What would happen afterwards, regarding this Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: You ask that if the elections were stopped, what would happen then with the Volkstaat?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, something about the Volkstaat.

MR FOURIE: Then we would have protected the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I do not understand. You did not have a Volkstaat at that stage when you decided to stop the elections. Now let us say that the elections were stopped, with the events that occurred, the AWBís activities, what afterwards? What would happen then?

MR FOURIE: I believe that they would have given us instructions what we had to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not know what was going to happen?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If I understand your evidence, it was not the purpose why you went to Ventersdorp and that is to stop the elections?

MR FOURIE: No we did not know what the plans were.

CHAIRPERSON: Your purpose was to protect Ventersdorp, not Ventersdorp, the Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said that was the only purpose?

MR FOURIE: That is how it was conveyed to us.

CHAIRPERSON: When they told you that this is not going to happen, I think it was the evening of the 24th, forget it, then you had to realise then that thereíll be no protection of this Volkstaat, is that not true, at that stage?

MR FOURIE: I assume then we had to protect the Western Transvaal that we wanted.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you were informed that this is not going to happen. "We will not get a Volkstaat, either handed over or taken, forget about that. Our purpose is now to stop the elections," do you remember your evidence?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you had to realise then that the purpose why I came to Ventersdorp in the first instance will not happen?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is how it was told to us.

CHAIRPERSON: And now you give evidence that in some way you reconcile yourself with certain crimes regarding the stopping of the election. With what political objective did you reconcile yourself?

MR FOURIE: I do not really know what you mean.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you answer, let me then explain a bit more, just to be fair to you. Why did you reconcile yourself with the stopping of the elections?

MR FOURIE: To force - why did I reconcile myself in stopping the election?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR FOURIE: That is to force them to give us a Volkstaat Mr Chairperson. That they must listen to us.

CHAIRPERSON: So your political purpose when you were at the farm or at Ventersdorp, do I understand you correctly?

MR FOURIE: No, I donít understand what youíre saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Initially you went to Ventersdorp to protect this Volkstaat. At a stage when you were there you were informed, "forget about the Volkstaat, it is not going to happen, we will not take it, it will not be handed over," did you remember your evidence?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage you say that your political purpose or objectives then have changed and you took a different route. That the elections must be stopped in order to force the establishment of that Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you were there, your political objective changed?

MR FOURIE: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me now, what was said at that meeting regarding the fact that you must forget about the Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: They said Koper Myburgh told them that the pipe bombs or that the men must be brought together and they must be involved with the pipe bombs to create chaos, to create fear amongst the people and Prinsloo said that we can forget about a Volkstaat, we will not get it. We must force them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say that?

MR FOURIE: Yes, he did. That is what he said.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you, what did he say? He said that you must create chaos in the elections? You will not get a Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is what he said. At the end, we must forget about it, they will not give us a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: And what else did he say?

MR FOURIE: That is what he said in his last speech. It will not be given but we must create panic and fear and create chaos in order to stop the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: And you reconciled yourself with those changes?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think that the few pipe bombs would force them to give you a Volkstaat?

MR FOURIE: I thought that there would be follow up by the men as it was promised.

CHAIRPERSON: At this stage, when you were there, things went wrong and you then left and went to go home?

MR FOURIE: Yes, that is correct. That is where we went to the wives.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you were part of the preparations at the farm or where the preparations occurred at the farm? That is now the game farm? Is that not true?

MR FOURIE: I do not follow you now.

CHAIRPERSON: You then left the preparation and the planning, that is now from the shooting range?

MR FOURIE: Yes. Then we went to the wives.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think, well all these things now then stopped because the people were arrested?

MR FOURIE: We didnít know then that they were arrested. We went to go and visit our wives and some of the members wanted to go to them. We were on our way back Mr Chairperson. If I can remember correctly the following day we went back when we were on our way we stopped in Ventersdorp and then from there, on our way back we went to the shooting range and then we went to a farm where we heard from this lady that they told us these people were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: What time was that?

MR FOURIE: When we heard that the people were arrested?

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in the morning or the evening, afternoon?

MR FOURIE: It had to be in the afternoon. I think it was probably midday.

CHAIRPERSON: Midday?

MR FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before lunch time?

MR FOURIE: Yes, approximately then. Because we left the women early.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that stage you thought nothing would happen?

MR FOURIE: No, I didnít think that, that nothing would happen further.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why did you go back to the farm or the shooting range? If you did not think that they would stop you, or somewhere a problem, why did you go back to the shooting range? Because things continue.

MR FOURIE: People were arrested, then I cannot go there. That is my point.

CHAIRPERSON: When you heard that there were problems, did you think that temporarily, things would stop?

MR FOURIE: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How late that day did you realise that or thought that?

MR FOURIE: When the people were arrested and we started running away.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was on the 26th of April?

MR FOURIE: If Iíve got it right, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you did not go back to the shooting range or the farm?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you hear about the airport bombing?

MR FOURIE: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the same day or a few days later?

MR FOURIE: It had to be later.

CHAIRPERSON: A few days or the same day?

MR FOURIE: No, I think it was a few days later.

CHAIRPERSON: When you thought that things would temporarily stop, I would just like to get clarity from you, could you definitely not reconcile yourself if something had happened after that because you thought it stopped. You did not expect that something would happen, is that not true?

MR FOURIE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: When you thought that nothing would happen you cannot reconcile yourself with things that happened afterwards?

MR FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS VAN DER WALT: Could I just rectify something which could be of interest with your permission. According to the charge docket, the bomb in Jan Smuts exploded the 27th, the morning and at that same morning the people were arrested at the shooting range. I would just like to rectify that because the dates and after the questions that you put I would just put it to you that the applicant is not quite sure about the dates.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are going to object to what was alleged by the State, I do not know if we are in a position or you have to present us with the correct version. Were they arrested on the 27th or not?

MS VAN DER WALT: The following applicant will give evidence in that light.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not want to make decisions about allegations.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van Der Walt, on behalf of the witnesses and all the applicants I am not planning or except if you want to do it, to release any witness who is under oath during the weekend. Unless some of the people here would like to do it in that manner. Then I donít want to call anybody else. What is your opinion?

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, I think it would be unfair against the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any objection of the other people here? It is now 20 past 12. I was planning, because of certain flights to adjourn at 1 oíclock. I think itís a good time now to adjourn. Then we adjourn until half past nine on Monday.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS