TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: 17TH JUNE 1998

NAME: ETIENNE J LE ROUX - AM6467/97

DAY: 1

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MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, before I identify the matter and the billing, may I make two requests. That the people with cellphones please switch them off whilst the Committee is in session.

Secondly, I understand from the transcribers they require some voice identification of the various representatives for the transcription. If we may do that once the matter has been properly called.

CHAIRPERSON: For the purposes of the record I'm going to ask firstly the members of the panel to identify themselves and thereafter each one of this array of legal representatives to say who they represent and their names.

For the record, I'm Judge Pillay.

MR MALAN: My name is Wynand Malan.

ADV GCABASHE: Advocate Gcabashe.

MR MALAN: Somebody has got to switch mike off.

PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

ADV BOSMAN: I'm Advocate Francis Bosman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, could you?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm Advocate Prior, Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am Advocate Liza van der Walt. I appear on behalf of the applicants. On record, I appear for applicants one and two but my instructions for them was ended this morning. I now appear for applicant number three as it is on the record, applicant 4, 5 and 7.

MR PRINSLOO: I am Advocate Harry Prinsloo. I appear on behalf of applicant 6, Johan du Plessis and 8 to 12 Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: I'm Advocate A P Landman of the Johannesburg Bar, instructed by Mr Patel of the Wits Law Clinic and I appear of behalf of a victim of the Bree Street Bombings, Mr Joseph Buthelezi.

MS CAMBANIS: I'm Crystal Cambanis from the firm, Nicols Cambanis, appearing for the family of the deceased, Yaliswa Rita Siako: Bree Street, for an injured person, Sifiso Freda Ngwenya: Bree Street, Joan Fubbs: Bree Street, John and Joan Keans: Bree Street.

MR PATEL: My name is Adi Patel. I'm from the Wits Law Clinic, representing Joseph Buthelezi.

MR MAKUBELA: I'm Advocate T Makubela. I'm instructed by the Legal Aid Board. I appear for a victim of the Bree Street Bombing, John Ngoba.

MR KRIEL: My name is Kriel from the Firm F A Jacobs and Kriel Attorneys, Germiston. I appear on behalf of a victim, Jonathan Skosana as well as his family. I have been instructed by the Legal Aid Board.

MR MADLUM: My name is Ike Madlum for the firm Madlum and Associated in Germiston. We're acting on behalf of the Germiston Bomb Victims, Mr Maseko and Mr Maseu respectively.

MR BRACHER: Patrick Bracher from Attorneys de Nuys, Reitz. I represent the surviving parents of the victim Ontong in Germiston, Mrs Hilda Hosane Semenya also Germiston and Mr Simon Walker, a victim of the Bree Street Bombing. I'm assisted by Mr Marcus Sinjatsi who may also speak so I will put him on record too.

MR SINJATSI: Marcus Sinjatsi, de Nuys Reitz Attorneys. I represent Ontong, Walker and Semenya.

MR PRIOR: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to make one thing clear in case there is any misunderstanding. There's one representative per victim or applicant, is that not so? Do we understand that?

PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the date being the 17th of June 1998 and it's the amnesty applications as prepared and as billed, of Nicolas Clifton Barnard and 11 others which proceeds today.

Mr Chairman, may I indicate that all the relevant notices in terms of Section 19 have been sent out to implicated persons and to victims. As the Committee will see they are broadly and widely represented this morning. I do have all the returns and the various copies before me if it should prove necessary. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, I see there's a person sitting at the table that I assume is going to be the table from where evidence is going to be led, do you know anything about that? Who is he?

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, this is Mr Myburgh, the second applicant. I let him sit there because he represents himself. My instruction was ended this morning and that's why he is sitting there. Mr Barnard didn't come from the prison, he wasn't prepared to come but I did not receive any further instructions from him.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the position with his application or do you not know?

MS VAN DER WALT: According to what I was told by Mr Myburgh is that he is withdrawing his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Mr Myburgh, do you have anything to say?

MR MYBURGH: Yes. I also want to withdraw my amnesty application.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, then you are excused.

MR MYBURGH EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, I need to give an instruction. I think the evidence investigator or some investigator be requested to go and visit Mr Barnard and perhaps get a written withdrawal of some sort.

MR PRIOR: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Otherwise we can proceed. I assume applicant number 3 will be proceeded with.

MS VAN DER WALT: There is just one aspect if you allow me Chairperson, which I would just like to clarify. The application forms which were sent in for some of the applicants at that stage, and this is now during May last year, because of a great amount of applications some of the printed forms were not available and I myself typed forms. I forgot to add a date to some of the application forms.

I have discussed this with Mr Prior this morning, but on the Commission's file there is a covering letter by myself on the day when I submitted the application forms on the 10th of May. I would like to ask you Mr Chairperson that this cover letter will indicate that these applications were done before that date and there's is also a member of the Committee present to whom I handed the application forms in in Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, do you have dispute or objections to that?

MR PRIOR: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Then we accept that it is correct and in order.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is then the same for Mr Prinsloo's, thank you very much. I call Mr Etienne le Roux, the third applicant.

MR ETIENNE J LE ROUX: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Mr le Roux you are the third applicant in this application and your application forms ...[intervention] There is something wrong with these microphones, a person can't speak through it.

(Microphone problems attended to)

MS VAN DER WALT: On page 48 to 65 and Annexure B, that explains the political goal and on page 214 to 223, you confirm the contents of your application?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I do confirm that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr le Roux, on the 7th of May you were born in Pretoria, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in what type of house did you grown up, politically speaking?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I grew up in a conservative household.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you receive any military training?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, in 1972 I was in the 4th Regiment in Potchefstroom.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you do any border duties?

MR LE ROUX: No, not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you a member of the AWB during the incident for which you are applying for?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, during the incident I was a member of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you join the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: It is approximately 10 years ago but I cannot say with certainty what the date was.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you join the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: I was in the CP, that was the political party to which I belonged and the AWB was the resistance movement which I thought would give us a Volkstaat.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you go through any course in the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I did. We did camps, various camps where we received training concerning "ter sel" training.

MS VAN DER WALT: And do you support or did you support the ideology of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I did agree with all the principles of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what were these principles?

MR LE ROUX: They brought out a book which stipulated the principles. It was for freedom, a free "volk" regarding the three things, Northern Natal, Free State and Transvaal, that would be the republics for which we laid claim.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the first one?

MR LE ROUX: It was Northern Natal, Free State and then Transvaal.

MS VAN DER WALT: During ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Was that irrespective of apartheid?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, apartheid at that stage or the AWB did not have a lot to do with apartheid and I could not reconcile myself with that. I was against the NP government of the day.

MS VAN DER WALT: May I continue Mr Chairperson?

During 1990 you attended a meeting of the CP where Andries Treurnicht addressed this meeting?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is correct. At the meeting it was discussed, it was the beginning of the third liberation struggle and it would start at that stage, which was in 1990.

MS VAN DER WALT: Against whom was this liberation struggle?

MR LE ROUX: It was against anyone who would interfere with our ability to rule ourselves and it would not give this to us.

MS VAN DER WALT: During March 1993 there was a mobilisation campaign of the CP ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just stop a moment please.

Could the people please turn their instruments off or just down a bit because it seems as if the volume is on maximum as we can hear it hear. Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: This mobilisation campaign which started in March 1993, this is now of the CP, against whom did you have to mobilise? What was the feeling of the CP during that time towards the ANC/SACP Alliance?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage Mr Chairperson, the CP realised that the National Party is selling us out. Against the ANC they realised that it was a communist government that would be established and they wanted to stop this.

CHAIRPERSON: What would the National Party sell out?

MR LE ROUX: The National Party would give the government over or the country over to a communist government.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you attend any meetings of the AWB was addressed by the leader Eugene Terreblanche or any of the Staff Generals of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: I attended various meetings Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the AWB's attitude regarding the unbanning of the ANC/SACP?

MR LE ROUX: My view was that the AWB was completely opposed to this.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the AWB's opinion regarding the election that would take place in the beginning of 1994?

MR LE ROUX: My view was that the AWB wanted to stop this completely, they wanted to put a spoke in the wheel.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did Eugene Terreblanche say from the stage regarding the election that would take place?

MR LE ROUX: At various opportunities he said that if the ANC take over he will start shooting and plant bombs, that was one of the things he said. He also said that we will stop this thing with all the powers we have.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did he say regarding the weapons that had to be obtained for this campaign which began?

MR LE ROUX: If we did not have weapons we had to steal weapons if necessary.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did Eugene Terreblanche ever from the stage make you aware or said to you that he would negotiate at any stage or what was his attitude?

MR LE ROUX: I understood it that his attitude was that no negotiations would take place.

MS VAN DER WALT: During December 1993, you went through a camp in order to qualify for the Ystergarde?

MR LE ROUX: That is true, it was a week long camp. In the Ystergarde we usually go through a few weekend camps in order to qualify for the week camp.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Ystergarde, can you explain or tell the Committee what the Ystergarde is?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you please spell that word?

MS VAN DER WALT: Y-S-T-E-R-G-A-R-D-E.

MR LE ROUX: The Ystergarde had to goal or wanted to protect the leaders of the AWB and execute certain operations which would be necessary in order to gain power for the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about certain operations, what do you mean by that?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, it could have been anything, it was a wide spectrum.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Ystergarde as well as, for example ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Such as what?

MR LE ROUX: Anything that was necessary. For example to stop an election or to realise the goals of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr le Roux, the "Yestergarde", were they trained to kill?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, definitely so.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in these courses were you taught to, in certain situations if you wanted to reach a goal, to kill in order to reach them?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is true. We were trained with house penetration, leader protection, self protection, self ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: This "Yestergarde", were they the elite section of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: During that course which you succeeded in, was that in Klokkelaan?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: One of the State witnesses, Mr Koekemoer, did you meet him during that course?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I was with Koekemoer. He was the chief State witness.

MS VAN DER WALT: And was he a member of the Ystergarde?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: On the 15th of December 1993 you attended the Day of the Vow festivities at the Voortrekker Monument?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what were the speeches about of the leaders of the AWB? What was conveyed to you?

MR LE ROUX: It was told or it was said to me or conveyed to me that we must stop this election and that our liberation, we must fight for our liberation.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about stop, how must this happen, did you have to go over to war or what should you do?

MR LE ROUX: I understood it as war.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you say you understood it, was it ever announced, was it ever said by the Staff Generals or Eugene Terreblanche, that you are going to go into a war?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, at various meetings before that and afterwards they also mentioned that.

MS VAN DER WALT: During that time, at the end of 1993 there was a meeting held in Pretoria's Hall which was addressed by Constand Viljoen, were you present there?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I was.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was said or discussed at this meeting?

MR LE ROUX: They discussed at that stage that the Volkstaat wanted to take part in the election but the people in the meeting were opposed to the election and they campaigned at that meeting?

CHAIRPERSON: Why, why were they opposed to the election?

MR LE ROUX: Most of the people at that meeting were from the right-wing and they were against the transfer of power to the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to understand that, was that not in the light of the fact that they could not get a Volkstaat? What would their position be if the AWB got the Volkstaat in the Transvaal and Free State and Northern Natal? Would they still have been opposed against the general election?

MR LE ROUX: No, in that regard they wouldn't have been.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are you aware of the fact that General Constand Viljoen ...[intervention]

ADV BOSMAN: Mr le Roux, can you explain, is it correct that General Viljoen still wanted to negotiate and on that basis wanted to continue but that the AWB did not want to negotiate, if I understand you evidence correctly?

MR LE ROUX: General Viljoen, the way I understood him at that stage, was busy with two things. Firstly he was busy with the negotiation process and the preparation for a revolution.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you just explain to the Honourable Committee what you mean when you say that there was a preparation for a revolution?

MR LE ROUX: There was for example organisations established like the Boere Crisis Organisation who from the farms and local communities they had to protect them and in that regard General Viljoen was the Chairperson of these meetings. That was his involvement in that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you have any knowledge of the fact that General Viljoen and the leader of the AWB, Eugene Terreblanche attended meetings together and addressed people?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, he attended some of them with the leader and they did address the people. I know there were some meeting which were not held in public.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you say "agteraf" do you mean it was secret meetings?

MR LE ROUX: No, not accessible to general members of the public.

MS VAN DER WALT: In your application you mention various towns in the Western Transvaal where the AWB got the freedom of the town, do you confirm that part, the contents?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I was present for example in Schweizer- Reneke and Ventersdorp and other various towns where the freedom of the town was handed over to the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why was this done?

MR LE ROUX: The same people who believed in governing themselves and the Boerevolk.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did this fall under the possible Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr le Roux, as the tension built up after the election that took place in April 1994, did you receive any call-up instructions from the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: We in the Ystergarde had order groups and in those order groups we were called up during the election to go to Ventersdorp for certain tasks.

MS VAN DER WALT: What would these tasks be?

MR LE ROUX: These tasks would be that for example there would be a security organisation that had to look after certain towns. We also heard from General Viljoen that the AWB had to, or their responsibility was the towns and some of the cities and that certain things would happen, maybe war deeds would be committed.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was this then the AWB, would they go over to warfare or warfare actions within these cities? What would you have to do in these cities?

MR LE ROUX: I would like to say something Mr Chairperson. Before this election it was basically decided upon to establish a Western Transvaal Volkstaat, so the principle of the AWB of Northern Natal, Free State and Transvaal, this did not include these areas but only the Western Transvaal as a Volkstaat.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did the AWB have to do, what must they do in the cities?

MR LE ROUX: They only had to accept responsibility for the cities or towns. I understood that certain actions would be taken to ensure our Volkstaat.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did you have to do with regard to the election?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage the way I understood it, we had to be there for protection. Certain activities would take place which was revolutionary in a nature.

MS VAN DER WALT: You received a call-up instruction in April 1994, from whom did you receive this call-up instruction?

MR LE ROUX: One day Flokkie came to us ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: Is that one of the applicants?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: It is applicant number 5.

MR LE ROUX: He then informed us, we had an order group and then we received information regarding this matter.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where did you have to go?

MR LE ROUX: We were told to go to Trim Park in Ventersdorp and to meet at a certain date.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was Mr Vlok involved with the AWB headquarters in Ventersdorp?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you say tell us, what did you have to do? Did you got with your wife and children to Ventersdorp or what was the situation?

MR LE ROUX: They would make provision for women and children. I had a business at that stage and I closed the business because I thought that it would take a few months and I could come back to my business but I closed it and I followed the call-up instruction.

MS VAN DER WALT: Some of the other applicants mention in their applications that they left their work and jobs, sold their houses and went to Ventersdorp, do you have any knowledge of that?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did everybody have to leave everything and go to the Western Transvaal?

MR LE ROUX: Because it was a turning point within our political vision and every body would have acted together, it would have been a countrywide action.

MS VAN DER WALT: At the Trim Park at Ventersdorp where you met, was anything said to you there?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, several things were said, we would have stayed there, they spoke of a security organisation where we would have been divided into.

MS VAN DER WALT: During the behaviour there was it said to you that there would be maze available for the people who got together there?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And it would have been used when the war started?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: After you arrived in Ventersdorp at Trim Park, were there already other members of the AWB there?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where did you go from there?

MR LE ROUX: From there we went to Barnard's farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this now the first applicant?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is the first applicant.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, continue. What happened there?

MR LE ROUX: We went to Barnard's farm and there all the women and ourselves camped there, most of us had tents or caravans, and we gathered there on his farm. It wasn't very appropriate though, there were trees but there weren't any other facilities.

MS VAN DER WALT: And from there, where did you go?

MR LE ROUX: A meeting was held and we decided to go to the other applicant, Jan de Wet's farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did the men also go there?

MR LE ROUX: The men and the women went there.

MS VAN DER WALT: At a stage the men went on their own to a farm, a game farm in the Magaliesberge, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: The same day we arrived at Jan de Wet's farm we were called up and we had to go to this game farm close to the Magaliesberge.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did the men move there openly or did you move in secret?

MR LE ROUX: We moved there openly.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who was in charge of this gathering?

MR LE ROUX: The camp commandant, he's another applicant here, Fourie.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there any Generals involved at this gathering?

MR LE ROUX: There were several Generals there and we saw them every day or every day I was there.

MS VAN DER WALT: The General who was in charge of the game farm, who was he?

MR LE ROUX: It was General Nico Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then at that time he was the Secretary General of the AWB, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there any other General there who was involved at this camp?

MR LE ROUX: The head of the Ystergarde was there, he was present there.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his name?

MR LE ROUX: Mr van der Merwe.

MS VAN DER WALT: And he was a General at that stage?

MR LE ROUX: No, he was a Brigadier.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Brigadier van der Merwe was responsible for the training of the Ystergarde, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when I talk of training I mean military, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, military.

MS VAN DER WALT: And there at the game farm you were prepared to do warfare, was there ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr le Roux, who was responsible for the training?

MR LE ROUX: The person who was responsible for the training was Mr Leon van der Merwe, a Brigadier in the Ystergarde.

CHAIRPERSON: Deon van der Merwe?

MR LE ROUX: Leon van der Merwe.

CHAIRPERSON: The ranks such as General and Brigadier, was that in the AWB's hierarchy of ranks or in other institutions hierarchy?

MR LE ROUX: The Ystergarde's ranks differed from that of the general "wen" commando of the AWB. The rank of General for example didn't exist in the Ystergarde, it was only a rank that existed in the then "wen" commando. The highest rank in the Ystergarde was Brigadier and there were two Brigadiers in the Ystergarde.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you make mention of Generals then you are referring to the AWB, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what was the purpose of this gathering at the game farm in Magaliesberge?

MR LE ROUX: As we spoke amongst each other and as the word went, it was because of the fact that General Viljoen, Constand Viljoen at that stage, told us that we will be responsible for the towns and the cities.

MS VAN DER WALT: But why in Magaliesberge?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[intervention] General Viljoen, he was a General in general terms?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, in the Defence Force.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you gather at Magaliesberge?

MR LE ROUX: Magaliesberg was very central, it was centrally located. It was almost between - no, I wouldn't say between but very close to Pretoria and the Witwatersrand area.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was the purpose then that if you had to react you would be close to the cities?

MR LE ROUX: I understood it in such a fashion, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, there is just an amendment which the applicant wants to bring in his application and it's on page 60, paragraph 19. He will just rectify this in his evidence. The version as it is, it came to light during consultation that it is not quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Which paragraph?

MS VAN DER WALT: Paragraph 19.

"At the game farm"

this is now paragraph 19. Mr le Roux, do you have it in front of you?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: There were certain requests made, can you just explain exactly what happened there?

MR LE ROUX: On the game farm on the Saturday, we arrived there on the Friday evening, and the Saturday we got everything into order, the camping and where we slept in our sleeping bags in a big hall, and that evening Barnard arrived there ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: This is now the first applicant?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that's the first applicant. Afterwards he went to Mr Fourie.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes?

MR LE ROUX: And after that those two came to me and they spoke, they were looking for somebody who knew the Johannesburg area very well. But here I would just like to say something. On Barnard's farm I met Barnard and he and I spoke, it was the first meeting I had with Barnard and he and I talked there and because I knew that he worked at head office and he was highly regarded I made myself available to him with regard to any task he wanted done.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, and on the game farm he came to you?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, on the game farm he came to me and he said that I should go with him.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you ask you whether you knew Johannesburg very well?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage he already knew because we already discussed it.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what else did he request of you?

MR LE ROUX: He also asked who knew explosives well.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes?

MR LE ROUX: I always knew that Koekemoer knew explosives well because of the camp we did together at Klokkelaan.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did he know explosives well

MR LE ROUX: Because he was a blaster on the mines.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we just go back then to Barnard who is the first applicant. You said that he was involved with head office?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what was his attitude or rather his relationship with Eugene Terreblanche?

MR LE ROUX: They had very close contact, and what I knew was that he was hand in hand with Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Myburgh, the second applicant as well?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Mr Myburgh was also involved with head office?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: During that time with the meeting at Barnard's farm, did you see him as your superior?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage I heard stories that he had a very high rank within the AWB but he never carried it around with him.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then, where did you go then? When he arrived at the game farm did you leave with him?

MR LE ROUX: We took Koekemoer, me, him and Koekemoer and we went outside and there was a little golf car. We took some of the explosives out of the golf car and transferred it into my vehicle and the three of us together with the explosives went to Koesterfontein.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now you ...[intervention]

MR LE ROUX: I'm not sure if Myburgh was with us, I think Myburgh was with us.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said the pipe bombs were taken out of J J Venter's vehicle. During consultation you also mentioned that you were not sure whether it was Venter's or van Coller's vehicle.

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I wasn't sure, all I knew was that it was a golf car.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said those explosive were put into the vehicle or was it pipe bombs?

MR LE ROUX: There were several pipe bombs and also normal explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now these pipe bombs, were they already fabricated?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, they were already fabricated.

MS VAN DER WALT: And where did you go then?

MR LE ROUX: We went to Koesterfontein.

MS VAN DER WALT: What is Koesterfontein, can you explain?

MR LE ROUX: Koesterfontein is the farm of Koper Myburgh's father.

MS VAN DER WALT: And?

MR LE ROUX: The farm itself had buildings, there was an old building which was is on one side, an old house and it served as a workshop for the house. His mother and father never got there, they were never involved. They were not aware of what we were doing.

We stopped at the back and there we unloaded the explosives and took them into the workshop and the storage rooms.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know - when you were at the game farm and this request was made to you to accompany him, did you know what you were going to do?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage Barnard informed us that we were going to have something to do with bombs, we did not know exactly what but we knew we were going to plan bombs. Also when we saw the explosives being off-loaded we realised that.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you believe, these bombs that you were making, under whose instruction were you doing this?

MR LE ROUX: I believed it was an instruction of the AWB and let's say the heads of the AWB, the chiefs.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about the chiefs, is that mentioned in AWB terms, the Staff Generals?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Please explain to the Committee what you understood with regards the Staff Generals.

MR LE ROUX: The AWB has a leader and beneath him there would the Staff Generals and they are the ones responsible for the decisions and the normal proceedings of the AWB. Some of them are attributed certain tasks, for example one General would be in charge of the Ystergarde.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who was that?

MR LE ROUX: That was Nico Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: And it was Nico Prinsloo who was also involved with this?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you arrived at Koesterfontein, what happened there?

MR LE ROUX: It was the Saturday evening and Barnard ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we just get a date, the 23rd of April 1994, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct. Barnard informed us that we were going to build a bomb and in the Audi car that he had there. There was an Audi car of a Mr Breytenbach which he had there.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why would this bomb be built into Mr Breytenbach's car?

MR LE ROUX: The AWB at that stage I heard would steal vehicles in order to prepare car bombs and to prepare these vehicles in certain places and there wasn't any other vehicle available, the only ones we had were our own and that of Mr Breytenbach.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now during the trial there was also evidence given that Mr Barnard borrowed this car from Breytenbach and then went with that car to Koesterfontein, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct. What I understood, according to Barnard, was that Breytenbach basically gave him the car to do with it whatever he wanted to.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the other applicants will give evidence that you carry knowledge of a meeting that was held where the stealing of vehicles was discussed.

MR LE ROUX: That meeting on the Saturday night just before Barnard arrived, I did see a few chair which were placed on the floor in the hall where we were and certain arrangements were made but I wasn't really involved with it but I saw that they were doing a vehicle drill which is to jump out of vehicle and to take certain actions and I understand it was in order to teach them how to steal vehicles.

MS VAN DER WALT: But at Koesterfontein you were not provided with a car which was stolen?

MR LE ROUX: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: And do you carry any knowledge of Corrie Botha and his son who arrived at Koesterfontein?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Corrie Botha I knew from the Ystergarde, we called him: "klein Corrie". He arrived there that night with a trailer and out of the trailer we also took explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this Corrie Botha and his son were also co-accused and they were released, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what else did you do at Koesterfontein?

MR LE ROUX: It was a Saturday evening and we started looking ...(tape ends)

...[inaudible] back yard and there we looked for things and there was a roller ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this a lawn roller?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that's right it's a lawn roller.

MR LE ROUX: We used that to basically build a bomb in. We cut it open at the top, we made a square hole in it and we bent iron over this and in we threw some of the explosive, first the anthrax, we took that first and we combined it with diesel and we threw it inside this roller and fixed it there with a hammer. We put a fuse in the centre of the roller. We made a fuse of cortex and we again closed this up at the top.

MS VAN DER WALT: This fuse, where did this fuse go?

MR LE ROUX: The fuse would serve to activate the whole bomb.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was it inside the vehicle or what was the situation?

MR LE ROUX: No, what we did then is that we placed the whole roller in the car, we took the spare wheel out of the boot and we placed this whole thing inside and around that we also put more anthrax and around that we also put plastic explosives, EE4. Then we took a fuse and from the fuse itself which stuck out of this roller and the other fuses, we took all of them to the front of the car, in other words so it could be ignited from within the car by means of a flame.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there any discussions with regard to where this bomb would go?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard at that stage said that the bomb had to go to Johannesburg, the first one. He also said that he wasn't sure where in Johannesburg but he said he was looking for a place with a lot of buildings in order to exhilarate or exaggerate the effect of the bomb.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did it have to go to Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: The whole idea was to carry over a message in order to cause city terror and that was why the bomb had to be placed in Johannesburg, we had several options. I asked him where did he want to have the bomb placed, I explained to him that there was a certain area which was similar to what he was thinking of, for example we talked about the Carlton Centre but we didn't want to place it there because there are too many open spaces. We wanted to place it in an area where the buildings were close together and Bree Street was appropriate for this.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did it have to happen in a place where the buildings were close together?

MR LE ROUX: It was in order to heighten the effect of the blast, that the glass would shatter and things like that would happen.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you want to cause city terror or urban terror?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage I believed it would have the same effect as the Church Street bomb had. It would carry the message about self-determination with regard to the Volkstaat which we stood for and wanted to fight for.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who, a message for whom?

MR LE ROUX: A message for the government of the day and also for the future government and we knew already that the ANC would be governing the country.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now on that Sunday, the Sunday before the election, why did you do it exactly on that day?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know why exactly the Sunday but Barnard said that the bomb had to be planted on the Sunday.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you want to disrupt the election in such a fashion?

MR LE ROUX: It was in order to carry out the message that there are right-wing activities taking place and that the elections had to be stopped.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who took the lead when you were building this bomb?

MR LE ROUX: Koekemoer took it upon himself and he built the bomb, he told us what to do. Now and then we'd ask him how to go about it or what we must do.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Koekemoer also gave the same evidence you've given now during the criminal proceedings in the Supreme Court, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: On Sunday the 24th of April 1994, were you still on Koesterfontein?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what happened then?

MR LE ROUX: That morning we got into the car, the bomb was completed the previous evening, we then drove to Johannesburg with the bomb. We discussed it beforehand how we would drive and I drove the leading car and Myburgh and Barnard drove behind me with the bomb.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you say: "the leading car", what was the purpose of that?

MR LE ROUX: That was car was in order to clear the way at the front. We had radio communication and if something stopped me or if something happened I could contact them and say the police are there or there's a roadblock, whatever.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who would indicate where the bomb would be placed?

MR LE ROUX: I had the responsibility for doing that because I knew Johannesburg. I drove into Johannesburg and in Bree Street we turned off and I indicated the first place but the car didn't want to in. I then drove to the second place and I indicated that. There were various cars behind us and we had to stop around a corner, in other words in order for them to reach me, that is now Barnard and Myburgh.

MS VAN DER WALT: This bomb then exploded in Bree Street?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, they detonated it there, they got into the car, we drove on. A few blocks onwards we turned around in the same street and that is when the explosion occurred.

MS VAN DER WALT: It was a very powerful bomb?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, it was the biggest bomb we ever built.

MS VAN DER WALT: And during your hearing photographs were submitted with the damage that was done. When you left that morning from Koesterfontein, the evidence in the Court was that Koekemoer stayed behind alone at Koesterfontein.

MR LE ROUX: Koekemoer stayed there, yes. Barnard told him because Koekemoer had a problem with the pipe bombs. the pipe bombs did not have a fuse charge. Koekemoer indicated this to us and he said to us that he will change the bombs and so Barnard gave him the instruction to change all the pipe bombs and put a fuse in.

MS VAN DER WALT: During the hearing the evidence was also that he remained alone on the farm and that Myburgh's parents were not there.

MR LE ROUX: They left early that morning and he was alone on the farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: After Koekemoer gave his main evidence in the Court, and it also seems from the record that under cross-examination he admitted that he was a police informant with the then information service, he was placed by them to keep the police up to date with what is going on in the AWB.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Mr Chairperson. He presented himself as a police spy but when he was with us he spoke a different language and he really did his bit.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then the evidence was then further that, and Judge Flemming finding was also that Koekemoer could then or told the police that there was a bomb on it's way to Johannesburg and that he did not do it, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage the telephone worked and the: "marnet" radio worked, everything was available for him. He also knew that we would be away from the farm for quite a while but he didn't do anything.

MS VAN DER WALT: After this bomb went of in Bree Street, where did you go then?

MR LE ROUX: I went back to Koesterfontein and from there we went to Ventersdorp. Barnard said that he wanted to pick up money at headquarters for petrol for the people who had to plant the bomb.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you know talk about headquarters are you talking about the AWB headquarters?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Eugene Terreblanche works from that office?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was a further decision made that Sunday that there'd be further explosions?

MR LE ROUX: While driving back Myburgh told me that they wanted to plant a bomb in one of the residential areas of Johannesburg. From Koesterfontein we went to Ventersdorp. First we went to the head office, I think he got money but I can't confirm that but he did hand out money to the people for petrol.

After that we went to his house on the farm and there we took a shower. After that we went to the farmhouse General Nico Prinsloo, there we picked up a trailer of the AWB, hooked it and went again back to Koesterfontein.

MS VAN DER WALT: At Koesterfontein, what did you do there?

MR LE ROUX: At Koesterfontein we again started building a bomb in the trailer.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why was it build in the trailer?

MR LE ROUX: We asked Nico Prinsloo to provide us with vehicles, cars, for the bombs that we are building but at that stage there weren't any vehicles available as nobody stole any so we began to build this in the trailer.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about: "we", who is this?

MR LE ROUX: It was Koekemoer, Barnard and myself.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes?

MR LE ROUX: We took a gas bottle as the principle part of the bomb. It was a gas bottle that was full of gas. We then tied cortex around this gas bottle and placed it within the trailer with the same idea that we had with the previous bomb. We then put loose explosives around this gas bottle in the trailer, we then picked up shrapnel, metal, and placed it on this bomb. The next morning we would place sand on top of it just to stack it together.

MS VAN DER WALT: This bomb, did it also have a fuse or how would you detonate it?

MR LE ROUX: This bomb worked differently, it had a crisis detonator. It was - from within the car we had a wire that led from the trailer to the car so if we go into a roadblock we could then detonate it there.

MS VAN DER WALT: But if you then detonate it, what would happen to the occupants of the car?

MR LE ROUX: They had to leave the car and run and that was one of our discussion points.

MS VAN DER WALT: With the building of this bomb, what was discussed?

MR LE ROUX: The discussion went around where we would place this bomb. Barnard was responsible for this and we decided to place it in the Eastern side of Johannesburg. Barnard said that he thinks the best place is at Germiston station and I told him that it is deserted and it's not like in the past, but not far from there is a taxi rank and close to that there is a big Volkskas building which would also heighten the effect of the bomb.

He then agreed with the placing of the bomb there. One of the points that we also took into consideration was that the highway near Germiston also ended there and we could easily escape from there.

MS VAN DER WALT: Whose vehicle would you use then to pull this trailer?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage he looked for a car or vehicle, I do not know how he got it but he contacted Jan de Wet.

MS VAN DER WALT: Jan de Wet is also an applicant?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes?

MR LE ROUX: He had a trailer and that evening while we were building this bomb he arrived ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: This is now Jan de Wet?

MR LE ROUX: Yes. The following he and Flokkie, also an applicant, arrived there - sorry, was dropped off the previous evening and he stayed with us that night.

The following day, that is now the Monday the 25th in the morning, I took my car and I pulled the trailer up to where we were not far from the house. There we put soil or ground on it and at that stage the other applicant also arrived.

We then hooked this trailer onto his car and took the wire through up into the car and we were on our way to Germiston. I drove and we were also in radio contact.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you drive alone in the leader car?

MR LE ROUX: That same morning another applicant, du Plessis, he arrived and he drove with me in training for the next bomb that we would place.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you then indicate the place where the bomb would go off?

MR LE ROUX: We drove into Germiston, I first indicated one place, I don't think they saw me, the second place I indicated with pointed over my shoulder where to plant the bomb and then after I indicated the second place I saw that he understood what I meant. He stopped and drove into a one-way.

Afterwards I saw that the car with the bomb was driving past me and at that stage I did not know where they were going but I could not follow him. Johan du Plessis and myself then decided to escape or get away out of Germiston because they knew where to place the bomb.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you then hear that the bomb did explode?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I did.

MS VAN DER WALT: You are talking now about the places that you indicated to where they must plant the bomb, that is now the taxi rank and the Volkskas building, did you have a specific target or what was the purpose of placing a bomb there?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I knew at that stage that in the Volkskas building there was an East Rand, as I understood the East Rand's CEO and that was one of the reasons why we wanted to, or this police station we wanted to target them.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why?

MR LE ROUX: Because the police were part of the current government or of the previous government then.

MS VAN DER WALT: After you left from Germiston, where did you go to from there?

MR LE ROUX: From Germiston we went back to Koesterfontein. At Koesterfontein we again went to the game farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: Koekemoer at that stage when the Germiston bomb left that Monday morning, he was once again alone on the farm according to the evidence in Court and he once again did not contact the police?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, he was alone again.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt if you've reached a convenient stage do you think we could adjourn now?

MS VAN DER WALT: I think it is an appropriate time.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for tea.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ETIENNE J LE ROUX: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, I'm going to give you three minutes to take all your photographs, be my guest. After that I'm going to carry on.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr le Roux, you have mentioned to the Committee that you were in Germiston and you and Mr du Plessis then returned, did you go back to Koesterfontein?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you see Mr de Wet and Vlok that day?

MR LE ROUX: I'm not sure but we definitely saw them on the game farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when you arrived at Koesterfontein, what happened there?

MR LE ROUX: At Koesterfontein we found Koekemoer there and we returned with him to the game farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have no knowledge concerning what happened on the game farm with regards to pipe bombs?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I do. I know several pipe bombs left there. The one night we loaded pipe bombs into Jan de Wet's vehicle which was supposed to go to the game farm taking into consideration other attacks.

MS VAN DER WALT: These are pipe bombs built on Koesterfontein?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And on the game farm, what happened there?

MR LE ROUX: At the game farm we started making preparations to move from there to another place. They spoke of some or other vehicle of Pretoria which would have planted a bomb there had not returned yet and therefore we had to move. We then went to the shooting range ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this now the Waterfall Shooting Range at Rustenberg?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct. We went to the shooting range. The four of use were together, Myburgh, Barnard, Koekemoer and myself and together with our group we had the two vehicles, it was the Peugeot which would later become the Jan Smuts car bomb, and our vehicle.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we just get clarification Mr le Roux, these people who gathered together at the game farm, can you tell the Committee approximately how many people there were?

MR LE ROUX: There were quite a few, it I give an estimate I'd say about 70 or more.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the people on the game farm were only men, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, only men, no women and children were allowed, it was a war situation and we acted under strict discipline and it was a revolution that was going to take place and we were busy with that.

MS VAN DER WALT: The camp was under the charge of a Camp Commandant and that is Abie Fourie, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then there was also a Commandant Operations?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this Commandant Operations, that was du Plessis. What did you understand with regard to the rank he held within the camp?

MR LE ROUX: It was that he was in charge of certain operations, in other words he would have sent out the pipe bombs and he had command over that.

MS VAN DER WALT: The AWB existed, as you already testified, out of several ranks, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there any instructions given to you during this gathering?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, from the start we were given orders. It was a rank hierarchy, it was military circumstances in which we operated.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your rank during that time?

MR LE ROUX: At that time I was a Lieutenant in the "Yestergarde".

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you said you went to the shooting range and the other people at the game farm, did they also arrive at the shooting range?

MR LE ROUX: Some of them were already there and some of them arrived after us.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the situation at the shooting range, was it the same as it was at the game farm, under strict discipline?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct, there was discipline and the rank hierarchy was respected there.

MS VAN DER WALT: And at the shooting range, what happened there?

MR LE ROUX: At the shooting the afternoon some of the men wanted to go and visit their wives and it was decided that some of them could go to their wives at Jan de Wet's farm and then they decided how they were going to drive, they had a small meeting. I was opposed to the meeting and I said that it could place is in a difficult situation in case any one of them were caught and he could then inform the police where we were if they were caught and I was opposed to this whole movement.

MS VAN DER WALT: But did some of the men go and visit their wives?

MR LE ROUX: According to me there were two vehicles that left with men who wanted to visit their wives.

MS VAN DER WALT: And who was in charge of the shooting range, the camp there after the men left?

MR LE ROUX: I know Commandant Abie Fourie was in charge of the camp at first and then he appointed somebody else but I cannot remember who.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention in your amnesty application on page 63, you mention Mike Miles Sharp.

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is that the person who was then in Command?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is he from the Natal unit?

MR LE ROUX: He was part of the Natalers, as we put it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there people coming from Natal who attended this gathering?

MR LE ROUX: The chief group there was our group from Vereeniging, Johannesburg and Pretoria and then there were quite a few from Natal, we called them Natalers.

MS VAN DER WALT: And why did they go there?

MR LE ROUX: For the same reason, that is in order to force this Volkstaat onto the government and to stop the election.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there a further bomb build at the shooting range?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard informed us that we were still going to build another bomb and he told me he is going to Jan Smuts with this bomb. We started the evening with the building of the bomb, I was not involved with the building of the bomb. Once again it was Koekemoer who was in charge of the building of the bomb and basically he built the whole bomb.

MS VAN DER WALT: Please continue.

MR LE ROUX: At that stage the car had a problem. Because it was stolen they hot wired this car and the coil started boiling over so I took the coil from my car to place it over the coil of the Peugeot in order to rectify it because I was responsible. Barnard gave me an instruction and said: "Make sure the car is fine so that we can get to where we want to go".

There was also a flat tyre which the Peugeot had which was deflating slowly. Later that evening me and another guy, I cannot remember his name, we called him: "Weeskind", we went to Swartruggens to a garage there to fix the wheel and we brought the car back and we brought back the new wheel.

ADV BOSMAN: You mentioned that Barnard gave you an instruction, I don't think you have told us what his rank was, can you just clarify that please?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard, I saw him as a Colonel in the Ystergarde and the leadership of the Ystergarde also considered him to be that and treated him in such a way but he was not a person who was very, he didn't want anything from a rank, he always said he had the lowest rank but I knew that he had a high rank within the Ystergarde.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know that?

MR LE ROUX: That was the general perception amongst ourselves. Barnard was the one who worked in head office and he worked very closely with Terreblanche.

CHAIRPERSON: But how did you know that Prinsloo was a General?

MR LE ROUX: I was involved with the AWB, I was at several camps and through that we knew that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he introduced as General?

MR LE ROUX: At the meetings the Generals are sitting there and they are introduced as such and when we had a drill, we had to march at certain times, then they were Generals, they carried the ranks of Generals as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there an opportunity where Barnard was introduced as someone who had a high rank?

MR LE ROUX: Yes. Chairperson, the first time I met him they said that that person is a Colonel in the Ystergarde.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said that?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot remember Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it one of the ...[intervention]

MR LE ROUX: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Was it one of the Generals who said this?

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not speak to the Generals as such but amongst ourselves, we guys spoke and it was the general thing, we knew who these people were. For example the Camp Commandant, Commandant Abie Fourie, we all knew that he was Commandant Abie Fourie and the camps we attended he was also addressed as such and he was regarded as a Commandant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you just tell me, how did you address Mr Barnard while you were there?

MR LE ROUX: As Cliffie.

ADV BOSMAN: I beg your pardon?

MR LE ROUX: As Cliffie. I called him by his first name.

ADV BOSMAN: What was the culture in the AWB or to be more specific, within the Ystergarde, how did you address each other in general.

MR LE ROUX: We addressed each other on our ranks but at the Trim Park the first time we were called up in Ventersdorp, it was said by Leon van der Merwe: "From now on no more ranks, we only address each by names because we are moving into certain operations".

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: With regards to that point to which the panel just asked you a question, Barnard, is it correct that he had another position than the normal member within head office or how did you see it?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, there were several bomb explosions in Western Transvaal and those places, there was a leading up to this election and in that time certain AWB members launched operations, we knew that. The small talk amongst ourselves showed that we knew that certain guys were responsible for it or that they gave the instructions and Barnard by coincidence was quite high up as far as the operational structure was concerned.

MS VAN DER WALT: You already testified that he had very close contact with Eugene Terreblanche.

MR LE ROUX: Absolutely.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the rest of the Staff Generals?

MR LE ROUX: I said before that Nick Prinsloo, General Nick Prinsloo was in charge of the Ystergarde and this was only with regards to the camp itself at the game farm, he was not the General of the Ystergarde itself. I just want to rectify that.

MS VAN DER WALT: No, but Barnard, did he also have close contact with the rest of the Staff Generals?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, very close contact.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also made mention that you knew who the Generals were of the AWB and if there were gatherings then the Generals would be present on stage or in front together with Eugene Terreblanche, what was the situation?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct, usually they'd sit on stage together with the leader of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that, and now we go back to the shooting range where the bomb was built, you said that Peugeot was a stolen car, was this Peugeot stolen during these operations which you executed?

MR LE ROUX: Whilst we were busy on Koesterfontein and when we got back we heard that this car was stolen. We had a look at the car and the guys said that it was available for a bomb. At that stage I did not exactly know where the car came from or how it was stolen, I only learnt about that during the Court trial.

MS VAN DER WALT: And during the Court trial you also heard that one of the accused, Mr Hattingh was found guilty of the theft of the car?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And he was sentenced according to that?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Hattingh, is he: "weeskind"?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that's him, he drove the car.

MS VAN DER WALT: And now you testified that the vehicle's flat tyre was prepared?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, it was quite late at night. When I got back Barnard told me that I could sleep a little bit and he would wake me early the next morning so that we could go to Jan Smuts.

We also then discussed where at Jan Smuts we'd plant the bomb. It had to happen at the internal or international departure halls of the airport. He said the reason for that was that if people from abroad came in, people who would assist the new government or to pay respects to them, that they would see that there is resistance against the whole election and anything that goes along with it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was your purpose to create chaos before the election or not?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I was told that we had to create chaos and we had to try and stop the election. It was concerned with one thing and that was the obtaining of a volkstaat in the Western Transvaal area.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now the next day the bomb went out, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: The morning very early ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: This is the Tuesday morning?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, the Tuesday morning very early Barnard woke me and there I found Johan du Plessis and also Jannie Kruger. They were appointed to drive the bomb car and I would once again drive the leading car. At that stage my car did not have a coil and I took a blue car from Jaco Nel who is also one of the applicants here today. It was a blue Toyota car and I used it as the leading car ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: Sorry, were you driving alone?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I drove alone. We discussed the radio procedures, how we would talk to each other and exactly how we would drive at the airport.

Johan du Plessis was a Commandant then and I explained to him that I'll take the exit just before the airport, I'd quickly swerve off and they had to continue on straight and close to the open parking area I would part and he must find a closed parking area at the building where the bomb would then also explode.

MS VAN DER WALT: So it was planned that it would happen at the parking area and not where there were a lot of people?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard also said this to me, that the bomb had to be in the parking area, we didn't want to kill foreigners. It was a very definite instruction.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you left for Jan Smuts?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, we drove to Jan Smuts. It happened exactly as we planned. I turned off just before we got to the airport, the bomb car followed the correct route and the top level of the airport is where he parked.

I stopped right in front of the building, I got out and I did not know whether they could see me from where they were or not, that is Johan du Plessis and Jannie Kruger.

I walked towards the building to see where they were and whilst doing that I met Johan du Plessis half way and I asked him where Kruger was, he said that Jannie Kruger somehow got lost. We then walked back to the vehicle.

In the leading car I took out my stop watch, I took off my watch which I used as a stop watch and I said we'd wait two minutes and see if Jannie Kruger cannot find the guiding car. In those two minutes the bomb exploded with a massive bang and I said we have to get away from there. We drove towards the gates of the airport.

The security personnel at that stage, we didn't know it, but it seems to me they waited for me. I saw them come running down the road. We paid at the gate and we drove out.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did it seem to you that the security personnel were waiting for you?

MR LE ROUX: Because there were a lot of them, there were a great many of them, and the moment the bomb exploded they were running towards the bomb.

MS VAN DER WALT: And where did you go then?

MR LE ROUX: Then we discussed with Barnard that we'd meet up in Ventersdorp. We then went to Ventersdorp and on the way there we heard on the radio that we were looked for and that they caught the guys at the shooting range at Waterkloof.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you did not return to Ventersdorp?

MR LE ROUX: No, we did not. And then I was on the run for a few months.

MS VAN DER WALT: And later you were taken into custody?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you at all influenced by certain leaders of the AWB to follow instructions and to have committed the deeds you have committed?

MR LE ROUX: The AWB is a paramilitary organisation. Instructions were given, there's a military structure and the leaders had various opportunities and encouraged us to follow this struggle of self determination. Before the election, I know that there were various orders given to people that there were, like the thefts as well as roadblocks will occur before the election in order to stop people at these road blocks and to confiscate weapons. It was the run-up of the situation before the election, we had to stop the elections. I know the leader of the AWB himself said that the election must be stopped, using any means possible.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage, before these ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue, how would the interference into the election help the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: In meetings of the CP, certain meetings were held and at these meetings decisions were made that the towns in the Western Transvaal would then divide, we will be divided from the rest of the country and we had to take this area over. That was the basic principle of that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but how would the election have effected this, what you did before the election?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, the National Party at that stage had the power and we saw at that stage, as well as the leaders also told us, that the country will be handed over to the ANC and in order to stop the elections we had to show the world that we've also got a claim to a certain area in the country.

If I can just add Mr Chairperson, the leadership did say that the day when the ANC takes over we will destroy them with bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that but in your evidence or when you started you gave evidence that the policy of the AWB was, and that was believed, to create a Volkstaat.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Somewhere in the former South African, the Free State, Transvaal and Northern Natal and that was irrespectively the policy of apartheid.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If the election was stopped or disrupted, would the Nationalists still be the governing body of the country?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How would that then have helped to get this Boerevolkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: The AWB through the years before the election in any case just went for this policy theirs for self-determination for the three areas that I mentioned, Northern Natal, Transvaal and the Free State and that was the principle. The National Party never thought about it or never listened. With the meetings of the CP this area was however made smaller and as I understand it they would later then extend it and that would be seen as the core area and then later they would extend it.

CHAIRPERSON: Would the National Party have then approved this area?

MR LE ROUX: Once again, the party like the ANC planted bombs and that placed pressure on the government of the day to make certain concessions and that was the same in this case and that is also how I saw it and that is how the leadership conveyed it. If we put pressure on them they would concede and give us a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: But they wouldn't have done it if the election continued?

MR LE ROUX: They would never have given us a Volkstaat, no Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Just as a follow-up to the Chairman's question, your actions took place from about the 24th of April, the election was scheduled and you knew this, was scheduled for the 27th of April, what effect did you think you could have in three days? You talk of the ANC having done the same type of thing and they managed to get an election, what did you think you could do in three days?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, the principle there was that, and it was also conveyed to me especially by Barnard, that the Sunday that the bombs explode it was very close to election and that would also have a world impact, I mean the world's eyes were focused on South African and Johannesburg especially had a lot of damage and that would effectively be world news.

The other bombs would follow up, for example the one in the neighbourhoods of Johannesburg and then the airport bomb had to occur on the election day. That was the order that I got and I also saw it that it would have the effect that it would disrupt the elections.

At that stage we thought that there would be various bombs that would explode countrywide. I knew about the pipe bombs that went out to disrupt certain activities and it would be the, the three bombs would be the large explosions that occurred and in the Western Transvaal there would be more bombs. Beforehand we discussed that other units of the AWB would continue but that never occurred though Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you tell me, would the AWB at some or other stage, according to the planning, take responsibility for the explosion of these bombs?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I understood that they would but it never happened and I do not know why. The AWB, if I can just add, they did make certain claims that they took responsibility for some of these right-wing activities and deeds, for example in the "Sweepslag" they also said that 240 attacks were launched by the right-wing.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it discussed at any stage why the AWB did not take responsibility for these bombs or did you discuss it with the leadership at any stage?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, this whole thing fell through after the people were arrested so I cannot answer that. I was under the impression that they will take responsibility. That is how I understood them and that is how I understood Barnard, that with all these bombs responsibility would have been taken.

MS VAN DER WALT: On that same point, did you at any stage after the incident or now before the amnesty application talk to Eugene Terreblanche about the bombs that went off or is the AWB will make any applications for amnesty or take responsibility for what the soldiers did?

MR LE ROUX: At one stage while I was in the maximum prison in Pretoria we called upon Terreblanche to make an application for amnesty because he could be implicated in these activities and as we talked amongst each the AWB then, some of them wanted to involve him as well.

I wrote a letter under the chairpersonship of the organisation that we established there and I asked him to do this and to apply for amnesty.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did he react on that?

MR LE ROUX: He did say that he received the letter but afterwards he said that he had nothing to do with it, that is now the bomb itself.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did he come and visit you in prison?

MR LE ROUX: He did come to visit a few of us in prison.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his attitude towards you regarding these incidents?

MR LE ROUX: He saw himself as part of this.

MS VAN DER WALT: As part of the explosions?

MR LE ROUX: Yes. I would just like to say something here. The way I saw it later on and my own viewpoint was that the resistance movements sometimes say that they deny that they were involved in acts of terror especially when it turned sour and it did not go the way they wanted it to go.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention on page 65, paragraph 37 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue - Mr le Roux, do I understand you correctly that Mr Terreblanche has knowledge of your application.

MR LE ROUX: Yes, he has got knowledge and he also said that we must apply for amnesty.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I be of assistance. Mr Terreblanche has been given notice in terms of Section 19 of the Act and he has communicated via his attorneys to the Amnesty Department. I am in receipt of a letter wherein his attorneys said he will not be attending personally but will be making a submission via an affidavit which will be submitted during this week, for what it's worth, thank you Mr Chairman.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention in paragraph 37 that creating a revolution the general public would become fearful and then will not take part in the election.

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, one of the main goals of the bombs was to create an atmosphere of fear and to accentuate the pressure on the government to get the Volkstaat of the right-wing.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is also with regards to a question which was asked to you by Advocate Gcabashe as to what you wanted to do three days before the election and that was to create this atmosphere of fear.

MR LE ROUX: That was not the only reason but that was the main reason and that is exactly this psychosis of fear and that is also to convey a message just like any bomb that exploded in the country by the ANC or anybody else and that was to convey a message and that is the message of self-determination.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you receive any personal gain from these deeds?

MR LE ROUX: No, none at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: And on behalf of whom did you act?

MR LE ROUX: I acted completely under the leadership of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr le Roux, you were then found ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: In whose interest did you act?

MR LE ROUX: In the interest of the leadership of the AWB, I was their leadership and I reconciled myself with their policies.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did the AWB see you as freedom fighters?

MR LE ROUX: In the discussions we had they proudly referred to us as fights, by certain leaders of the AWB. I know people who came to visit us addressed us like that.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about some of the leaders, can you tell the Committee who conveyed this to you?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Terreblanche himself said that we did our bit for the stopping of the election or the before election revolution.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did he personally convey it to you?

MR LE ROUX: He conveyed it in a manner which sounded as if he was proud for what we did, and that was the way in which he conveyed it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was this in prison?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, it was.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were found guilty, not just for the Bree Street bombing, you were also found guilty for having explosives.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And I'm talking now about the Bree Street, Germiston and Jan Smuts incidents, you were found guilty on all charges, murder, intentional damage etc., and you were convicted.

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: How long?

MR LE ROUX: 29 years.

MS VAN DER WALT: And currently you are detained in prison?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you apply for all the charges that you were found guilty of?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: During the hearing before Judge Flemming you did not give evidence?

MR LE ROUX: No, never, I also did not make any statements.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also did not make a statement to the police?

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not make any statement to the police.

MS VAN DER WALT: There was an aspect of a statement that you allegedly would have made but this statement was forged, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, one evening a policeman came to me and he asked me a few questions. I answered him indirectly because I did not want to make any statements but later my legal representative, Mrs van der Walt found this statement and in this statement you could see that it was very unprofessional, forgery. She took this so that they could investigate it, the police themselves, and it was found that it was a forgery.

MS VAN DER WALT: So during your hearing you never implicated any of the leaders of the AWB within this case?

MR LE ROUX: No, I never implicated anyone, I never made any statements and I never said anything to the police.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you at that stage want to make any statements or implicated any Staff Generals or leaders or any person who gave you an order?

MR LE ROUX: Because I was part of the AWB in the Ystergarde and there's also one golden rule that we apply and that is never to betray anyone.

MS VAN DER WALT: During the hearing it would seem and if it's correct, that when the State witnesses testified, that is now Koekemoer and various other people who were also at the game farm and shooting range, it clearly showed concerning that evidence, that the whole operation there had only one goal and that was to make war.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Mr Chairperson, the only purpose was warfare and nothing else. We were called up in the struggle, we began it and we made the best of what we had.

MS VAN DER WALT: We were prepared to give our lives for this matter and that was the evidence of the State Witnesses.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: There's one aspect but I could maybe take it up later. I had photocopies made of a newspaper but I cannot find the lady now so that can stand over till later. Apart from that article in the newspaper I am finished.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR PRINSLOO: I'm representing the other applicants, may I continue, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR PRINSLOO: I'm involved with the incidents, my applicants are involved with that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: That's one, two - okay Mr Prinsloo, you may go ahead.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr le Roux, before 1990 when the ANC was unbanned, you have military service and you supported the right-wing politics?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And as far as the right-wingers were concerned at that stage, their policy was to obtain a Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: It was the policy I spoke of earlier.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, he already gave evidence to that extent.

MR PRINSLOO: As the Chair pleases.

Mr le Roux, inasfar as the right-wingers were concerned after 1990 when the ANC was made legal again, did this have any influence on the AWB and the right-wingers in general?

MR LE ROUX: It was again illustrated to us that the NP wanted to hand the power over to the ANC and because of that we considered the NP to be our enemy.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it acceptable to the right-wingers that the ANC/SACP Alliance would govern the country?

MR LE ROUX: No, not at all, we opposed this government with everything we had, with all our power and we could see this from the papers and from the meetings of right-wing parties. All of them disagreed with what was going to happen.

MR PRINSLOO: And you attended the meetings of the AWB and the right-wing parties?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I attended several meetings.

MR PRINSLOO: And the utterances which were made by Mr Terreblanche and other leaders of the AWB and right-wingers, did it had an influence on you with regard to your actions in the bomb explosions?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, it definitely had an influence on me. If you live in the milieu where you have to stop this thing and you must do it then you work yourself up towards that point.

MR PRINSLOO: No at the end of '93, the beginning of '94, were you aware of bomb explosions which took place at the West Rand, Free State and Western Transvaal?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, several bomb explosions. I also quoted before what the AWB said, that they almost accept responsibility for that, so there was a complete and constant struggle. Even during that time there were bomb explosions taking place all over the country and as I saw it, this culminated or ended in the great bombs with the elections.

MR PRINSLOO: General Constand Viljoen at the beginning of '94, was he part of the Conservative Party, Doctor Ferdie Hartzenberg, the leader of the AWB, Eugene Terreblanche where it was decided that they would not take part in the election, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct. At that stage the Volksfront was the vehicle they used and they made decisions with regard to the elections and how it would be stopped and General Viljoen was the one who did all the planning concerning that and he involved the CP and the AWB also fell in with his plans. They even gave certain posts and positions which the leaders would take up.

MR PRINSLOO: And Viljoen's people, would they take part in the violence?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, definitely. The "BKA", several times we were informed that the BKA would launch several actions.

MR PRINSLOO: Now the BKA was the "Boere Krisis Aksie"?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And that formed part ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What is the BKA?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, BKA stand for Boere Krisis Aksie.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking the answer from the interpreter.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, the BKA, I was under the impression that General Viljoen was the Chairperson of the BKA and they would have been responsible, as I said before, for the rural areas in order to protect people and also for certain operations. These operations would entail making sure that a Volkstaat would be obtained.

CHAIRPERSON: Where do you get this information?

MR LE ROUX: It was published in several papers of the right-wing and it was discussed at meetings. I was also approached by certain BKA members who informed me on certain things.

MR PRINSLOO: Now the Volkstaat you're referring to, is it so that a Volkstaat was already determined beforehand, where it would be?

MR LE ROUX: The first Volkstaat was marked but the second one which would have been in the Western Transvaal, it had its lines, its boundaries around the Johannesburg border, that was one of the borders but otherwise it was quite broad, it might have changed.

ADV BOSMAN: Just a moment Mr Prinsloo, I just want to some clarification with regard to a previous question.

You said that you wanted to create a psychosis of fear and this was discussed at meetings and in the papers, were they discussed in details, specifically with regards to the loss of life, was that discussed?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, as I said, any resistance movement would not say these things in public but these things were discussed for us and then when we do take power the day that was one of the distinguishing things which we always said and it was also conveyed in such a fashion by our leaders.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr le Roux, I think you misunderstood my question. I'm already talking about meetings, I'm not talking about newspapers. The whole question of loss of life that you know of, was this discussed? The potential for great loss of life with the planting of bombs, was attention paid to this that you know of?

MR LE ROUX: It was addressed, this issue, Chairperson. The loss of life works both ways. If we first look at the side of ourselves, it was said at the meetings that certain right-wingers would be taken out, that means they would be killed. These were the people who threatened the country or the power which was in control at that stage.

And on the other side, at meetings it was said that there would be a revolution and that death and destruction would reign and the enemy would then be killed.

ADV BOSMAN: What I'm trying to get from you Mr le Roux, is that despite whoever's life would be lost these bombs would explode?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I don't think any political party would ever admit that but in our circles there were talks about the fact that certain people do die in crossfire and it was discussed.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr le Roux, in 1993/'94 at that stage, did you see that there was a war or was there peace?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, is there anything in dispute with regard to the applicants you are representing and looking at the evidence of this applicant?

MR PRINSLOO: There are certain aspects which I want to ask this applicant and which have to be clarified.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but for the benefit of your applicants?

MR PRINSLOO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why can they not give the evidence themselves?

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson with respect, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Unless you consider certain things in dispute with regards to what he testified.

MR PRINSLOO: I'll continue with that aspect Chairperson.

Mr le Roux, this person Koekemoer who was responsible for the building of the bombs, I put it to you that he was also a police reservist and he was also an informant, do you agree with that and he gave evidence to that extent in Court?

MR LE ROUX: We heard this in Court, he admitted that he was a police informant and reservist and he was a source for the police's Intelligence Unit. At the Court case he also made a great deal out of this, that he was a great spy.

MR PRINSLOO: Now I put it to you further that he was paid by the police for the work he did in this specific case.

MR LE ROUX: In the Court case he admitted that he received certain amounts of money from them, that they paid for his clothes and also for his fiancée.

MR PRINSLOO: I'm putting it to you that he received informant money.

MR LE ROUX: He was paid informant money.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, how relevant is that?

MR PRINSLOO: With respect Chairperson, it's very relevant in this case, there must be complete disclosure and it's relevant to what extent the State was involved in these specific bomb explosions because Mr Koekemoer was an agent of the State and what he did he did with the knowledge of the State.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Koekemoer could have been a police reservist and he was a possible informant?

MR PRINSLOO: With respect Chairperson, there was a question from the police as well as the person who led the evidence for the Commission and they were informed that that informant file of Mr Koekemoer, they wanted this because instructions were given by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but Mr Prinsloo, that is not your client. If the Advocate who acted on his behalf thought it good not to submit that evidence then it's that person's case.

If you want to submit it you have to do it by means - if you want to submit evidence of this kind you must do it by means of your own clients. Are you not going to call your own clients?

MR PRINSLOO: With all respect Chairperson, Mr le Roux was directly involved with Mr Koekemoer, he was there when certain instructions were given etc.

CHAIRPERSON: How does it affect your clients?

MR PRINSLOO: With all respect Mr Chairperson, Mr Koekemoer's involvement influences the conspiracy in this whole case.

MR MALAN: Mr Prinsloo, I have the same problem. We received the evidence of the third applicant here, he testified with regards to his involvement with Koekemoer and his suspicions, we have the record, it part of the bundle in the Judgment which was also referred to. U can get all the information through your client. He cannot say more than he's already said. He said that he learnt these things at the Court case, and I think we can save time if you do not lead the evidence, it's not going to be in conflict with the evidence of your clients. I think you can put this by means of your own clients please.

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, I saw it as my duty to bring it under the attention of the Committee. Then I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, I'm going to ask you questions in English. If you wish you can make use of the earphones.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr le Roux, I prefer that you listen to the interpreted questions. Just see if it works please.

Mr Landman, for the purposes of the record you are Mr Landman now going to ask questions?

MR LANDMAN: Thank you.

Mr le Roux, has anybody on behalf of the AWB publicly acknowledged responsibility for the bomb that was planted in Bree Street by yourself and others?

MR LE ROUX: Not publicly Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Do you consider Mr Terreblanche to be a brave leader who is able to speak his mind?

MR LE ROUX: I consider him as a very good speaker. Just with regards to your previous question, the Sweepslag did acknowledge that the Bree Street explosions, they accepted responsibility for that and the Sweepslag was the mouthpiece for the AWB, it was the paper of the AWB.

MR LANDMAN: Who is Mr Rundle?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage he was the Secretary General of the AWB.

MR LANDMAN: He was on the Executive Council, the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not say it was Mr Prinsloo? I thought ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR LE ROUX: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Prinsloo not the Secretary General of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I know Mr Fred Rundle had a position, he was Liaison Officer or something to that extent.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps he was on the Secretariat.

MR LANDMAN: Is it not correct that Mr Rundle was in fact a member of the Executive Council, "Die Uitvoerenderaad?

MR LE ROUX: You say that so I accept it as such but I do not think he was part of it. We basically had the Staff Generals and he was not part of the Staff Generals, he had more of a secretarial position. He worked with the media and he made the media statements for the AWB.

MR LANDMAN: He would know what was done on behalf of the AWB, would he not?

MR LE ROUX: He would have known that Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, may be hand up certain bundles of documents which we have prepared in the course of yesterday, to which we will make reference in the course of this examination?

CHAIRPERSON: We will mark this Annexure A. Yes?

MR LANDMAN: Now if the AWB wanted to inform the public that these bombs were exploded in order to, inter alia create chaos, Mr Rundle would be the person to say that wouldn't he?

MR LE ROUX: I do not think Mr Rundle had anything to do with the bombs himself, it would go through the Staff Generals.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but Mr le Roux you have testified that you accepted that the plans with regards to the bombs were instructions of the AWB and I think it's in that light that the advocate asked the question, that the use of bombs were at least discussed on a level where Mr Rundle was involved.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, these bombs exploded in three days and I think he maybe did not have the time to react to that. I do not know what the agreements were amongst the leaders of the AWB.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, do you suggest that Mr Rundle would lie to the public?

MR LE ROUX: No, I do not say that Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: If the intention of the AWB was to disrupt the election, would Mr Rundle tell that to the public?

MR LE ROUX: I do not carry any knowledge concerning that. I do not know if he would have said that.

MR LANDMAN: Well surely, one of the aims of the bombing was to disrupt the elections, surely the AWB would want the public to know that?

MR LE ROUX: That is why the bombs were so powerful Chairperson, it had a message by itself. I mean it's like the Church Street bomb, it had the same effect. The ANC did not immediately afterwards something or took responsibility for it and that is what the AWB thought. The bomb itself was the message.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, when was the decision to plant the bombs made?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know when that decision was taken Mr Chairperson, I know that I was informed about the bombs on the Saturday evening where Barnard came to fetch me at the game farm and that was the 23rd Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, you don't even know who took that decision do you?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I presume that it was the AWB headquarters, the Staff Generals. That is all I know about it and furthermore I carry no knowledge about this.

MR LANDMAN: We don't want to know what you can guess, from your own knowledge you don't know who took the decision to plant the bombs, did you?

MR LE ROUX: No, I do not know who took the decision.

MR LANDMAN: And you didn't try to find out either, did you?

MR LE ROUX: I made certain conclusions by myself and that's all that I had, I did not try and find out myself.

MR LANDMAN: Didn't you ask Mr Barnard: "Who gave you the order that we should plant bombs"? Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Barnard told me through Nico Prinsloo he received these orders to plant the bombs.

MR LANDMAN: Did you ever go to Nico Prinsloo and ask him whether that in fact was true?

MR LE ROUX: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And you never asked Mr Prinsloo on whose authority did he give the instruction to Mr Barnard, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: I could not ask him, I was not near him or close to him. We were on our own at that stage.

MR LANDMAN: For all you know Mr Prinsloo might have decided, for his own reasons, to have wanted to plant these bombs.

MR LE ROUX: I do not know, I cannot answer it.

MR LANDMAN: You see I want to read something to you that Mr Rundle said to a newspaper reporter. It's at page 13 of bundle A. It's a report in Die Beeld of the 22nd of April 1994 and I'm reading from the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman, let's be careful, you're treading on terrible ground here. You haven't proved the accuracy of this document yet and your putting a question to the witness based on the contents of this document. You're stuck with the answer that he gives.

MR LANDMAN: Yes, certainly Sir.

Mr le Roux, I'm going to ask you just to listen to my questions and not to anything which might be said by your counsel next to you. Now if you have a look at the bottom of the first column of that article, which is headed:

"AWB On The Way To Safe Area. Mr Rundle said that the most recent plan is not the disruption of the election"

And then in quotes:

"No, we're will not disrupt the elections. What must we do to rectify it, to physically prevent the people to reach the election points? We are not going to do that because we are not kaffirs"

Now Mr le Roux, is there anything in that statement which you disagree with?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I do not know why Mr Rundle made this statement as the AWB leader himself said that the election will be disrupted. Mr Rundle was definitely a subordinate and I do not know why he made this statement.

MR LANDMAN: Now I want you to look a little but further down in that column that I've cited to you, where it says:

"The Staff Generals on the Executive Council of the AWB yesterday in a press release said that this movement if not planning to take part in the election"

Do you accept that?

MR LE ROUX: The AWB would not have taken part in the election Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: You see, because if one accepts that this is what the "Generale staf" and the Executive Council said on the 1st of April, it appears that in the same statement no reference was made to them wanting to cause havoc at the elections. Can we accept that, that there has never been a statement by the Staff Generals: "Generale Staf" to say that they want to cause chaos before and during the elections?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, this is a newspaper article, it is something like I mentioned earlier on, resistance movements do lie about these things and certain of these operatives had to carry certain things that come their way.

MR LANDMAN: Are you saying that they must sometimes be dishonest in their statements to the public?

MR LE ROUX: Various resistance movements do it across the whole world.

MR LANDMAN: So the answer is yes, they must be dishonest?

MR LE ROUX: Yes. I beg your pardon?

MR LANDMAN: The answer is yes, there are times when they have to be dishonest?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Now is it correct that Mr Rundle was called as a witness ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman, when you get to a convenient stage we will break for lunch.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, this might be a convenient stage.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ETIENNE J LE ROUX: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LANDMAN: (cont)

Thank you Mr Chairman.

Now Mr le Roux, we're going to continue with Mr Rundle for a while. Now who was the leadership, can you tell us who was part of the leadership of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I can completely understand what's he's asking me in English, may I leave them off?

CHAIRPERSON: The choice is yours.

MR LE ROUX: Thank you.

My view of the AWB was that there's is a leader with his Staff Generals. There are certain groups coming from this point. Mr Rundle usually made press releases but I do not know where he got the information from and I did not know who liaised. I cannot answer that.

MR LANDMAN: Could you tell the Committee what was the: Executive Council, what was that?

MR LE ROUX: I understood it as if someone manages or he takes certain decisions, he can do it on his own decision, he doesn't have to answer to anybody else.

MR LANDMAN: So I want to suggest to you Mr le Roux that we know that the Executive Council would be the ultimate decision making body in the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: No, I do not agree there, I'd say that the Staff Generals were.

MR LANDMAN: Do you recall that Mr Rundle gave evidence at your trial in mitigation of sentence?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I hear what you say but I cannot remember it, no.

MR LANDMAN: I want to put it to you that Mr Prinsloo who is sitting next to me called him as a witness to testify in mitigation at that trial.

MR LE ROUX: That is possible.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, I'd just like to place it on record that at that stage Mr le Roux was not present so he has no knowledge of this.

MR LANDMAN: Why were you not present Mr le Roux?

MR LE ROUX: I think I was still running away from the police at that stage.

MR LANDMAN: Well I want to put to you something that Mr Rundle said at that time and ask whether you agree or disagree with what he said. This is now at page 5 of bundle A, from approximately line 23. He is asked by the Prosecutor.

CHAIRPERSON: Which page?

MR LANDMAN: Page 5, and you'll see that there's a (20), just below that:

"How would the planting of bombs and the killing of innocent people help to counter this feeling of fear"?

And Mr Rundle then replied and said:

"The planting of bombs was never an instruction that was given by the leader. He was never part of such a decision. I would like to make it very clear, in the Executive Council, with all honesty, it was never discussed or in any council in which I served"

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, can I can put it to in this way: There was a Court case, I do not believe that there was anything said that conveyed the essence of the AWB's decisions. They would denied it. I think when the last bomb exploded and the election did continue in an orderly fashion, then they would have been brought into receiving different insights. Like I mentioned earlier on, there were resistance movements all over the world who denied things like this.

MR LANDMAN: So implicit in your statement is that Mr Rundle lied under oath in the High Court, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot answer to that Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Well when he says that:

"The planting of bombs was never an instruction given by the leaders"

Do you agree or disagree with him?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know, I wasn't there.

MR MALAN: I would just like to ask you, does that not correspond with the applicant's idea was that the decision was taken by the Staff Generals, is that also not a possibility?

MR LANDMAN: At this stage I can't say anymore than to say that most things are possible, but certainly when Mr Rundle says in his evidence that wasn't a decision taken by the leadership, certainly on that level there seems to be no question that that wasn't the case.

MR MALAN: That is not correct. What you quoted was that such a decision was not taken by the Executive Council. Do you have other evidence saying that it was any of the other leaders or someone from the leadership, but this refers to the Executive Council.

MR LANDMAN: I'm aware that that is in fact the case. The point is that Mr Rundle talks about the leadership, that's the only point I make.

Mr le Roux, did the Staff Generals at any stage produce a statement in which they admitted that they were responsible for the bombings?

MR LE ROUX: I do not believe so, I carry no knowledge regarding that.

MR LANDMAN: Do I understand you correctly that it was after the elections actually took place that the AWB leadership would then have decided it's no use admitting that they were responsible for the bombings, for whatever reason?

MR LE ROUX: Regarding the previous question I would just like to say that at that stage I didn't have the information and I also did not receive any news, so I cannot react regarding any matter concerning this. I would say that the AWB would have denied it at that stage.

MR LANDMAN: What do you say was the purpose of the Bree Street bombing?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard told me that these bombings should be the beginning of the terror.

MR LANDMAN: But did Barnard tell you why a bomb should go off on Sunday?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, he did.

MR LANDMAN: What did he say?

MR LE ROUX: He told me that because of the fact that if a bomb explodes during the week in Johannesburg, more people would be killed and thus he said that they decided on exploding or detonating the bomb on the Sunday.

MR LANDMAN: Did Mr Barnard tell you why there should be any bombs going off on Sunday, what the purpose of the bomb was?

MR LE ROUX: No, he only explained that point that I mentioned, and that was regarding the fact that on the Sunday there would be less people killed because there wasn't that many people around.

MR LANDMAN: How many people did you hope to kill that Sunday?

MR LE ROUX: I was part of a team and we saw it as that and I did not know how many people would die. I thought that the area that we targeted was more an office area and also a sort of a bad neighbourhood.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by: "bad neighbourhood"?

MR LE ROUX: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that?

MR LE ROUX: That it was an office area?

CHAIRPERSON: No, "bad neighbourhood".

MR LE ROUX: I knew that in that area from my experience because I drove past there quite often, there were many escort agencies etc., and that was one of the ways in which I saw it. I think in the Court case it was said that nine escort agencies were damaged.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason Bree Street was chosen, because of these escort agencies?

MR LE ROUX: No, not as such Mr Chairperson but it was one of the reasons. ...(tape ends)

...[inaudible] you get good areas and good areas, that according to me is how it is.

CHAIRPERSON: As I remember your evidence, you said that the idea of the Carlton Centre, you didn't want to explode the bomb there because there were people around in the area?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that was one of the reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: And you wanted this bomb to explode in a densely built area?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is why you decided on Bree Street?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say that Bree Street was chosen because in your words it was a bad area, now what is the position or your position?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, to plant a bomb and you have to talk about it then you talk about these things and that is how I felt at that stage, in that it was not a neighbourhood that was highly acclaimed but the buildings was one of the biggest factors.

CHAIRPERSON: In the light of the buildings, was that a good area or in the light of the agencies, was it a bad area? How does it work?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, that area I drove through very often with the work I did and I knew it was an area which was densely packed and that is what it was all about.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR LE ROUX: I received the instruction that the bomb must be planted in Johannesburg and we talked about it and that is what is was about.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, it was your decision that the bomb should go off in that particular area, on the corner of Bree and Von Wielligh.

MR LE ROUX: Not only mine, Barnard and myself together decided on that.

MR LANDMAN: Now, is it correct that that is an area, the corner of Bree and Von Wielligh where a lot of black people walk up and down to the station and into town?

MR LE ROUX: There were black people, yes.

MR LANDMAN: Is it known to you to be an area where there are a lot more black people than white people? Isn't that so Mr le Roux?

MR LE ROUX: It could be but at that stage I did not think about it. The points that Barnard stipulated to me was that it's not about black or white, whites had to be involved in certain cases. If we wanted to be racist we could have planted a bomb in the middle of Soweto.

MR LANDMAN: I might have been a bit difficult for you to escape from Soweto unnoticed, isn't that so?

MR LE ROUX: I've already driven into Soweto and driven back.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way Mr le Roux, why wasn't the bomb planted in the capital of the country, namely Pretoria?

MR LE ROUX: It was Barnard who said it must be Johannesburg. I don't know why he took that decision. He gave the order regarding that.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, when you chose to stop on the corner of Bree and Von Wielligh Streets, what did you understand was the motive behind the bombing?

MR LE ROUX: The basic motive was the prevention of the election, to create a psychosis of fear and to convey the message of the Volkstaat.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, did somebody tell you that? Did somebody say to you: "Look, this is the motive behind the bombing", or is that something you worked out yourself?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, amongst each other we talked about this. Barnard and I discussed it and he also mentioned it.

MR LANDMAN: Now, in order to publicise your desire for the Volkstaat, I assume that you wanted the public to know that the AWB was behind this bombing?

MR LE ROUX: If I purely made the decision, it would have been that way but I did not purely make the decision Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Do you not find it strange that the AWB did not, immediately after the bombing when it was announced on the radio, take responsibility for the bombing? This is now before the elections?

MR LE ROUX: It was strange to me but I could say it was very short period, it was the Sunday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and Wednesday was the election and I ascribed it to that.

MR LANDMAN: But in reality Mr le Roux, you know that somebody could have phoned one of the newspapers or the SABC at any stage to claim responsibility, isn't that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is probably so Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And that Sunday afternoon, according to what you tell us, that was the start of this campaign to prevent the elections?

MR LE ROUX: I was not in command of the whole operation.

MR LANDMAN: Have you ever asked anybody why the AWB failed to announce that it was responsible for the bombing?

MR LE ROUX: I did ask it afterwards but it was a few months afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: From whom did you ask it?

MR LE ROUX: Well I asked the leader of the AWB himself.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was that?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Terreblanche.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, if you wanted to create a situation where people did not want to go and vote, why didn't you target any of the polling stations?

MR LE ROUX: I did not give that instruction Chairperson, I was only a part of the execution of this instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but Mr le Roux, you were charged to choose where the bomb would be planted.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I was told that the bomb must go off in Johannesburg and because of that I said, the day was given to me, the time, and we discussed it further as such and we decided where to place the bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume that then there was also an election in Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore there had to be polling stations?

MR LE ROUX: I did not know where those polling stations were. I did not know, not as far as Johannesburg was concerned.

ADV BOSMAN: The question I want to ask you Mr le Roux, if you can just clarify it for me. If it didn't matter where in Johannesburg, why were they looking for somebody who knew Johannesburg? Can you answer that?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, Cliffie Barnard, Koper Myburgh, they come from farms and they know very little about the city. While we were driving there they didn't even know the names of the streets and that's why I was chosen for that.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't want to argue with you, I just want to convey to you what bothers me. A city is a city and unless you want a specific part of the city for a specific purpose, if you drive through a city the buildings are close to each other.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, ...[intervention]

ADV BOSMAN: Just let me finish. The question I have is, they knew where Johannesburg was I assume and they can observe buildings. If you could just give a bit more clarity why would somebody have to know the city to determine the density of the area? Maybe I just don't grasp well enough what you are trying to say.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, one of the things Cliffie and I discussed was to get the bomb to Johannesburg as quickly as possible and then to get out of the city as quickly as possible and he didn't know, he couldn't move around in Johannesburg. I can assure you he wouldn't even be able to distinguish Sandton from Johannesburg.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, if we can just talk about where you placed the bomb. Is it correct that the Carlton Centre area is quite deserted on a Sunday afternoon, there aren't many people in that area?

MR LE ROUX: I would agree with that Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Is that not the reason why you chose an area other than the Carlton Centre?

MR LE ROUX: The Bree Street was also relatively deserted on that time on a Sunday Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: But you knew that there were people walking in the streets, coming and going?

MR LE ROUX: It would been the case at the Carlton Centre as well.

MR LANDMAN: Were you aware of the Monte Carlo Hotel on the corner of Von Wielligh and Bree Streets?

MR LE ROUX: I take the detail into consideration, I just had a broad idea and we applied it as such.

MR LANDMAN: Yes, but Mr le Roux, what I'm asking you is this, were you aware that there was a hotel on that corner?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Did you know anything about the buildings around that corner?

MR LE ROUX: I did not know specifically, I had a general idea of the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr le Roux, as I understand your evidence, the instruction was to take as few people's lives as possible in this operation, is that not true?

MR LE ROUX: It's not as few as possible Mr Chairperson, people had to die but not too many.

CHAIRPERSON: Instead of the Carlton Centre where there is a lot of space, you decided to choose a place where there were a lot of buildings. Isn't it that a person would expect that there would be more people in buildings than there would be in a spacious area?

MR LE ROUX: It could be Chairperson. My personal motivation was that you sometimes look for a place close to yourself and that was, when we went over the line there we could only turn into Bree Street basically and then we were in Johannesburg, that was just something.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, arising from that may I ask you this, what route did you take from the Rustenburg area to Johannesburg? Did you come via Hartebeespoort Dam?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, if I'm wrong with a few turnoffs or roads please excuse me but I'm going to give you the route plus minus, it's four to five years ago. We drove into Krugersdorp from Koesterfontein with the bomb and then we drove on Ondekkersweg, then we drove and we turned off, went past the SABC building, I think it's Empire Road, and then we drove over the hill at Braamfontein, then we crossed the tracks and into Bree Street.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, if you took that road you could have planted this bomb at the SABC building could you not?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, we could have.

MR LANDMAN: You could have planted it at the Brixton Tower?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, but that wasn't Johannesburg Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: When you talk about Johannesburg are you talking about the city centre?

MR LE ROUX: Johannesburg itself, it had to happen in the middle of Johannesburg, that was my instruction.

MR LANDMAN: At what stage did you decide to leave the car on the corner of Bree and Von Wielligh?

MR LE ROUX: In my mind I had an idea of how the area looked and I decided that we must get to that specific point and that's why I indicated it and it was also my instruction to indicate to the others where to place the bomb.

I drove into the first parking space, the car couldn't fit and then the second one I also drove in and realised they could fit the car in there.

MR LANDMAN: Were you at the farm when you decided that that is where you are going to leave the car?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, the general vicinity, not the specific spot.

MR LANDMAN: Did you notice whether there were any cafe's near that corner?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage I didn't observe very much but I think on the far side on the left-hand side there must have been a cafe, I'm not quite sure.

MR LANDMAN: Did you realise that people might come in and out of that cafe to buy bread and milk and the rest?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And you were happy that those people should be caught up in the bomb blast?

MR LE ROUX: I was tasked to do this and I saw it as such, that whoever was there would be caught in the cross-fire.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the question is not whether you were tasked to do this. Were you not worried about this?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, at that stage I firmly believed that we are entering into a struggle and I wasn't concerned with any loss of life. I thought I was doing the right thing.

MR LANDMAN: Now Mr le Roux, you obviously know that area fairly well, are you aware of a hotel by the name of the Diplomat Hotel?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: You say you do know that there are a number of escort agencies in that area?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: On what occasion did you come to notice them?

MR LE ROUX: That is with the driving past that I can remember them being there.

MR LANDMAN: So you knew people would be coming in and out of those places as well?

MR LE ROUX: It could be Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Do you know whether there are any churches in that area?

MR LE ROUX: I can't imagine that. If there was a church I wouldn't have targeted a church.

MR LANDMAN: Now did you intend this bomb to cause damage to all the buildings in that area?

MR LE ROUX: As many as possible Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Did you intend that some of the building should fall down?

MR LE ROUX: If it was possible Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And did you know that there were people living in flats in that area?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I thought that Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And in order to publicise your desire for a Volkstaat you were prepared to allow those people to be buried in the rubble should the buildings fall down, is that right?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, at the time that the members of the AWB were asked to gather at Trim Park in Ventersdorp, did you at that stage know that the AWB had now decided that the Western Transvaal would become the homeland, the Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And people were asked to gather in that area to protect the borders of the Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And to protect the AWB as well, their headquarters?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MR LANDMAN: So the only public orders that were given by the leadership of the AWB were to protect or that those people who came together at the Trim Park should protect the borders of the Volkstaat and to protect the AWB's headquarters, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson, that was not the principle.

MR LANDMAN: I'm not talking about the principle, I'm talking about the order that was publicly given to people.

MR LE ROUX: No, that order was not given just like that, there was a much broader command given.

MR LANDMAN: When you gathered at the Trim Park, were you then satisfied that the AWB's Volkstaat had now started to take shape, you now had an area, the Western Transvaal and this was going to be your Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And if somebody came in there, such as the army came in to occupy parts of your Volkstaat, would you then have defended the Volkstaat against that?

MR LE ROUX: No, no such plans were made then as far as I knew.

MR LANDMAN: You see Mr le Roux, what I don't understand is if you had your Volkstaat in your own minds then why were you bombing people outside the areas of your Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: I just want to say that there wasn't a Volkstaat yet. We wanted to enforce one and that's why we planted the bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Were any of the authorities asked about this Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: I don't understand that question Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a request?

MR LE ROUX: The Volksfront effected the request to the NP for a Volkstaat. That was general knowledge with us Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it requested from the ANC, which according to your opinion was on the point of taking over the power in the country?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I was aware of that Chairperson. General Viljoen at that stage was part of the right and he was busy with two parts, the one with negotiations as I've said and the other, the violent option and that was concerned with the Volkstaat Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the result?

MR LE ROUX: As far as I was concerned as well as most of us, that there wasn't an answer to the negotiations.

CHAIRPERSON: And because there wasn't an answer you thought it was a good idea to go and plant bombs in order to demand an answer?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I was part of the violent option and we planted it with the purpose to obtain the Volkstaat.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, are you seriously suggesting that people who have waited three centuries in order to vote in their own government would, by a few bombs planted here and there in the Gauteng area, would choose not to vote?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, that was a thing which came over a long time. There were several bomb explosions and there were several people who negotiated. People from the right negotiated with the government of the day, they even negotiated with the ANC, that was General Viljoen. We thought that it would be a much broader thing.

I'm sure a lot of people know that the army was also in the balance and that a part of the army could have moved over to the right and that some of the units for example who had armed vehicles would join the right-wing. There was a big thing, it wasn't just a small little story.

MR LANDMAN: You say that one of the reasons for the bomb was to persuade people not to vote, is that right, not to continue with the election?

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not say that.

MR LANDMAN: Well what was the purpose of the bombing? What did you hope to achieve by that?

MR LE ROUX: I've said several times already Chairperson, it was to cause fear, to stop the elections.

MR LANDMAN: Now you say there had been bombing before that as well, before the 24th of April?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: And had that stopped the preparation of the elections in any way Mr le Roux?

MR LE ROUX: The bombs we planted I saw as much bigger than that, and Cliffie Barnard also conveyed it to me in this fashion. This was now that we would get the attention of the whole world. It was right before the election and the world's attention would be focused on this. That is how he conveyed it to me and that is how I also believed it.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, you haven't answered the question. Is it correct that none of the bombings before the 24th of April did anything to stop preparations for the election which was to take place a few days later?

MR LE ROUX: No, you're right, they didn't.

MR LANDMAN: But you say these bombings were going to be much bigger in order to attract the attention of the world, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: It would have been part of the greater plan. As I've said, the Defence Force was also in the balance and they might have joined the right-wing battle.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary for the world to know about the AWB policy?

MR LE ROUX: You know that if you want a state the world has to admit the existence of that state and that is what it was about.

CHAIRPERSON: What made you think that the world would help?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, the United Nations' whole principle is based thereon. For example I know that two of their principles are, you cannot discriminate and the other one is that every nation has the right to self-determination and that's what we believed in Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Just a follow-up on that. This is what really puzzles me, you did not want foreigners to be hurt again because you wanted the world to accept what you were doing but you don't explain to the world why, who you are and why you are doing these particular things at this particular time. How does the world then assist you in any way?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, the last question I will answer first. It is correct, I also questioned the fact that they did not take responsibility for the bombs and I also put it to them. The next thing is that you do not just shoot an American, it maybe could but I don't know. It was an order which came from Barnard in any case, the airport bomb but I mean, my logic says you don't shoot an American or so because they will make much noise about it. ...[transcriber's own translation]

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but I still don't see a separation between your objective which is the attainment of a Volkstaat and the actions that you were involved in here. I can't see a correlation between the two. Just to explain a little more possibly.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, the ANC took over the country, he planted a few bombs, he committed acts of terror and some of them they did not even admit themselves. In that same regard we were also a paramilitary organisation and had the same objectives as the ANC.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, really just for clarity. You see, the people whom I presume you expected to stop these elections were the NP Government, that's right?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson. That is part of the that.

ADV GCABASHE: But if anything was going to happen before the 27th or on the 27th, it's only the government in power that would have done something about it, yes?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, this thing was aimed or I saw it as something which stretched beyond the election, it wouldn't have ended with the election. It would have been bigger than the bombs we planted. There would have been other units involved.

ADV GCABASHE: Now you also knew that the world generally was against what the NP Government had sustained for so long, so as far as the NP Government was concerned the world was on your side, they wanted a democratic election in the country, right?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But your target doesn't become an NP Government target at the end of the day, how do you then relate this?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, it's difficult to explain but I think if you are part of a resistance movement and you look at the ANC who was in a similar situation as we were, how would you explain a Wimpy bomb or a Church Street bomb? You cannot see what the target was.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, I'm still confused, were you aiming to influence the NP Government or were you aiming to influence the international community?

MR LE ROUX: We saw the NP in alliance with the ANC at that stage. I mean at that stage the writing was already on the wall, that the ANC would take over the government and that's what we wanted to focus our pressure on and for the world to see what was going on.

MR LANDMAN: Yes, but just answer my question. Were you attempting to influence the international community by placing these bombs?

MR LE ROUX: I think the thing was that they also see it Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Did you want the international community to stop the elections?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot answer that, but the purpose of it was to, in a bigger context, stop the election. That was only our part in the whole process.

MR LANDMAN: Yes, but we're here trying to understand inter alia your motive. Was your motive to convince the international community to apply pressure on the National Party not to continue with the elections?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: So your activities were not aimed directly at the National Party, but you were actually trying to make a point to the international community?

MR LE ROUX: It's difficult for me to talk about it because I was not the planner, I was only part of a team which took part in the Bree Street bombing.

CHAIRPERSON: But how did you see it?

MR LE ROUX: I saw in that light, that the world must know about it. It was also one of the thing which Barnard distinctly said: "We are going to show the world there".

MR LANDMAN: So Mr le Roux, isn't it correct then to say that at the end of the day you actually can't say yourself what the real motive and purpose was behind the bombing?

MR LE ROUX: No, I can say Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Did you say: "Ek kan dit nie sê nie"?

MR LE ROUX: I can say it.

MR LANDMAN: You can say it. Now Mr le Roux, you also, if I understand it correctly, conceded that the writing was on the wall, there was going to be a change in government after the 27th of April.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Isn't it correct Mr le Roux, that by the 24th of April you knew that you will never stop the election?

MR LE ROUX: The day of the election I only realised it and I then decided by myself or realised myself that it is the case.

MR LANDMAN: So despite the fact that you had planted the most powerful bomb on the Sunday and it had no effect on the elections, the election was still going to go ahead, did you not then realise that this is not going to work?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, at that stage I didn't have a lot of contact with the outside world. I was on a farm, I drove into Johannesburg, I drove back and I did not really know what was going on. I saw it as a range of things that's happening.

MR LANDMAN: Well did you hear or see anything, hear anything on the radio or see anything on television which gave you the impression that your bomb on Sunday had any effect whatsoever on the course of the elections?

MR LE ROUX: I heard over the radio, we heard that the Johannesburg bomb had a terrible effect.

MR LANDMAN: Did you hear anything to the effect that that bomb had any effect upon the elections which would take place on the 27th of April?

MR LE ROUX: I do not believe that one would hear of anything like that. I mean, how would you hear about it?

MR LANDMAN: There wasn't a spokesman from government saying: "Well, we now doubt as to whether we are going to continue with the election"?

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not hear anything like that Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: If I understand you correctly, there was this much greater plan where the army might even become involved on the side of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: You see Mr le Roux, I want to put it to you that the reason why none of these things happened, the army didn't come onto your side, the elections continued, is simply because these bombings were not designed, were not part of a plan to stop the elections.

MR LE ROUX: These bombs were part of the plan, it was part of a right-wing plan.

MR LANDMAN: I want to put it to you that these bombings were part of a plan by a very small group of people who didn't care about human life, being yourself, Mr Barnard, Mr Myburgh and possibly Mr Prinsloo.

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, how would you then explain the Church Street bombing, it's a means and for it was the same thing.

MR LANDMAN: Did you believe Mr le Roux, that you would win this revolution?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage yes, we thought so.

MR LANDMAN: Did you believe that you would be safe in your Volkstaat in the Western Transvaal?

MR LE ROUX: I did not think that we would be safe but I thought that it would be a beginning, a start.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that at that stage you believed that you would win the struggle, must I read in that, that that is not what you are thinking now?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, things did change. I mean it's not the option at this stage.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, when you drove to Johannesburg in the pilot car in order to plant the bomb, did you take steps so that you wouldn't be recognised?

MR LE ROUX: No, not at all.

MR LANDMAN: Did you not take steps afterwards to ensure that the car in which the bomb was placed was to be reported as stolen?

MR LE ROUX: We thought about it but we saw it as a military action, a struggle from which we would come out and we did not pay any attention to that.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, is it not correct that the owner of the vehicle, a Mr Breytenbach was told after the bombing that he must report the car as having been stolen from him?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct, Mr Barnard organised that with him.

MR LANDMAN: Why was that? Or maybe I can suggest to you ...[intervention]

MR LE ROUX: I did not take that decision Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: I want to suggest to you that the answer is simply because you didn't want, you and Barnard and the others didn't want to be connected to the bombing.

MR LE ROUX: Yes, it could have been that way.

MR LANDMAN: Because you knew that you were going to be caught and that you were going to be tried for it.

MR LE ROUX: You try to get away with it for as long as possible, yes.

MR LANDMAN: I want to put it to you that you knew that these were criminal acts and these were not political acts and you knew that one day you would be caught for it.

MR LE ROUX: At that I did not think so at all.

CHAIRPERSON: But when this action was committed or the plan was executed, were you under the impression that the AWB will take responsibility for it?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So how would it have helped you?

MR LE ROUX: I thought that we would get a Volkstaat and that the leaders on the right-wing side would enforce that and there'd be more actions and that would then result in a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about hiding.

MR LE ROUX: We didn't have much to hide, we didn't cover up or anything. Barnard did say after the time say: "Listen, the car must be reported stolen", but I never gave that order, I just know about it. It is just, for as long as possible you try to get away with it because the struggle would continue for a while longer.

MR LANDMAN: Is it correct that in connection with the Germiston bombing, that one of you removed the chassis plate number from the trailer in which the bomb was assembled?

MR LE ROUX: I took it off Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Why did you do that?

MR LE ROUX: So it's not easily identified.

MR LANDMAN: You didn't want it to be traced back to the AWB, isn't that so?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Yet you were doing this in the honourable cause of the AWB.

MR LE ROUX: I just want to add that the number plates of the trailer was still on it, we left it there. We did however place more explosives behind the number plate in order to destroy it more, but our ultimate plan was not to hide everything. Barnard said: "Let's take it off in order not to bring the AWB into trouble".

MR LANDMAN: Well Mr le Roux, that's exactly what this is all about. You didn't want to get the AWB into trouble because you and the others were acting on your own?

MR LE ROUX: Not at all Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: You wanted that number plate to be blown to smithereens so that it could not be connected to the AWB.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, it was the AWB's trailer. I do not know if any of the guys who bought the trailer would have been angry that we used that.

MR LANDMAN: You see actions it seems were designed to hide any connection between the bombing and the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, when you are in a war situation and you go into a town and you want to shoot people then surely you hide behind buildings and you do try to hide things, and that is what it is about.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr le Roux tell me, during that period you did what did and you thought that after the explosion the AWB would take responsibility for what occurred.

MR LE ROUX: I thought so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In the name of this state and that the international community must find out about it. I think the advocate's point is, why do you remove all the signs that the AWB members were involved? Why did you take these signs away if it was planned that the AWB would come out in public and say: "It was us"?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage as winning time, gaining time, that's why the number plate did not bother me much. They could have found a number plate. I was under the impression that the plate, afterwards I folded it up and threw it into the trailer because all the rest of the stuff that we used in planting the bomb, all of that we three into the trailer.

ADV BOSMAN: If you now say: "To win time" or "To gain time", do you mean for you personally, for you and your group or are you talking about gaining time for the whole AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I would say it was about gaining time for oneself, because at that stage you think of surviving, it's one of the points and of course you would like to leave a door open for what you belong to.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, I want to also suggest to you that if you put the chassis number in the trailer, you knew that trailer and everything that was in it was going to be blown up to smithereens, isn't that so?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: You knew it wouldn't be found?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: You knew that the number plate wouldn't be found, that's why you put additional explosives behind the number plates, isn't that so?

MR LE ROUX: I would just like to say one thing, the vehicles did not have any false number plates, we just had our original number plates on. This red car which had the trailer or which pulled the trailer in could easily have been identified.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, you could have made your point about the Volkstaat and about the undesirability of the elections going ahead by planting a bomb at the SABC, isn't that so?

MR LE ROUX: That is possible, yes.

MR LANDMAN: You didn't have to kill people did you Mr le Roux?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I accept that it is a general thing that is done throughout the world by a resistance movement. The IRA does it, the ANC did it. They all did it to draw attention to their cause.

MR LANDMAN: What you wanted to do was to create an explosion in a place where people will take notice, that this the power behind your organisation, that: "This is what we can do".

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: So by blowing up the building of the SABC where all the TV cameras are, that would also have shown how powerful you are.

MR LE ROUX: Our target was not the SABC.

MR LANDMAN: Do you regret the fact that white people were killed in these bombings?

MR LE ROUX: No, not at all.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, are you a member of any right-wing church such as the Israelites?

MR LE ROUX: I beg your pardon?

MR LANDMAN: Are you a member of the Israelites?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson, I'm not a member.

MR LANDMAN: Are you a supporter of that church?

MR LE ROUX: I read a lot of there literature, some of them.

MR LANDMAN: What is the attitude of the Israelites towards black people, do they have souls?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Is there anything objectionable about black people according to the Israelite religion?

MR LE ROUX: No, Mr Chairperson. It is a nation which was created next to other nations, just as the Boerevolk was created.

MR LANDMAN: And are these: "volke" equal, do they have equal status?

MR LE ROUX: The Israel group are the chosen group.

MR LANDMAN: Do you consider yourself to be part of the: "uitgekore" volk?

MR LE ROUX: I believe so yes, just as the Jew believes that he's the chosen nation.

MR LANDMAN: Now, in a newspaper article there's reference to an incident which occurred at the World Trade Centre, do you remember that?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Where the AWB invaded the talks about the

settlement in this country?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: One of the banners read: "1 Boer, 10 Kaffirs", do you remember that?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Do you agree with those sentiments?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Isn't it so Mr le Roux, that in the Germiston bombing you targeted a black taxi rank?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Isn't it so Mr le Roux, that your chief target during this bombing campaign was to injure and kill black people?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Isn't it so that the Bree Street are where you bombed was also a place which is predominantly occupied by black people?

MR LE ROUX: There were white people as well Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: But there were more black people there than whites, isn't that so? You know that?

MR LE ROUX: That's possible Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Well do you know it or don't you know it?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know but it's possible.

MR LANDMAN: Wasn't this bombing campaigning simply a last ditch attempt by people like yourself who couldn't face the fact of having a non-racial society and this was your last attempt to show your anger and hatred towards black people by bombing them?

MR LE ROUX: No, white people also died in the explosions.

MR LANDMAN: You didn't intend that to happen did you?

MR LE ROUX: We didn't target and race group.

MR LANDMAN: If I can just refer to your application and ask you to turn to page 65 of that bundle. Mr le Roux it's not that one. It should be page 12 of that, paragraph 37.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr le Roux, this Volkstaat for which had the struggle, people who were previously classified black, would they have been welcome in this Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: Did you welcome?

CHAIRPERSON: Could they have lived there if they wanted to?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I'm not a racist. I believe nations move in certain directions and our purpose was self-determination. At that stage just before the election, I think I had about eight black people who worked with me and I got along with them very well.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not speak of people who worked with you, I'm speaking of people who wanted to go and live there.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, the black nation and the Boer nation also got along. There were certain racist incidents, it always happens but that they would have been welcome yes, definitely Chairperson. You cannot have such great movements, it was something that I couldn't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: What would the basis of the Boerevolkstaat have been?

MR LE ROUX: That the Boers would govern themselves in that area, the Afrikaner Boer.

CHAIRPERSON: And what would have happened to the black people who lived there? Would he would have been ...[indistinct]

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I think - this is my idea and was the general idea of the AWB at that stage, is that the right to self-determination should be granted to each nation and the same would be in any Volkstaat which came into existence.

MR MALAN: Mr le Roux, if I understand the question correctly it is, if black people in your Volkstaat, would they have had any political rights, would they have been able to take part?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson, not at all but they would have had the right to self-determination.

MR MALAN: But in another area outside of the Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: In an area which they wanted.

MR MALAN: But not in an area in the Volkstaat.

MR LE ROUX: If it was an area which they could have claimed, I'm talking about Western Transvaal Volkstaat, it was quite a quick thing that happened but we look at the Transvaal in a broader light there's Venda, there's Boputhatswana.

MR MALAN: No, let me reformulate my question then. I just want to make sure, and this is the question, that where there was a Boerevolkstaat as you explained, there black people would not have had any political rights?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson. They would have had the right of self-determination if they insisted on it.

MR MALAN: You're making it difficult for us. If you say the right to self-determination, if I understand you correctly their right to self-determination would have been in other areas and not in the Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MR MALAN: But in the Volkstaat they would not have had any political right, is that what you're saying?

MR LE ROUX: If this would have been the Volkstaat and they wanted a piece of that land and they had the claim to want it then they could have governed themselves.

MR MALAN: Yes, but then it wouldn't have been part of the Volkstaat anymore?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, it would have been part of their own area where they could govern themselves.

MR MALAN: So as far as the area of the Volkstaat is concerned no-one else would have had rights except the Boers?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, there was an ethnic basis on which it was founded.

ADV BOSMAN: Can we take it just a little bit further in order to obtain complete clarity. Black people would not have had political rights there but in order to posses ground doesn't really refer to political rights, that is more as far a voting is concerned. These black people could they have bought ground there?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson, it's not possible. The AWB's principles which I believe in is ...[indistinct] and it comes down to any other one except an Afrikaner Boer would have those rights. No one else would have them in that state except the Afrikaner Boer. If it was an Englishman or whatever, it doesn't matter if he's black or English or whatever, I do not discriminate against that.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, is it correct that to be a member of the AWB you have to be a white South African citizen, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, you have to a white person and a Christian.

MR LANDMAN: So this organisation was racist in that sense, that black people were not allowed to join the AWB, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, it was the nations, how they were formed through the years, that was the principle behind it. That was how the AWB saw things.

MR LANDMAN: Just turn to page 7 of the bundle. The other one Mr le Roux, page 7. That's a application for membership of the AWB, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Is it correct that right at the bottom just above where one must sign, that the person has to confirm that he is a white or that he or she is a white South African citizen, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: So if you're white you can become a member, if you're black you can't?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I've never seen an Afrikaner Boer who is another colour than white.

MR LANDMAN: What about Portuguese people, can they join the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: You're asking me to draw a line.

MR LANDMAN: Well, there isn't a: "streep" ...[intervention]

MR LE ROUX: There are Portuguese people who are members of the AWB Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: You see because what I want to put to you is that this again is a fact showing that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman, I think the point has been made, that is was clearly for white Afrikaners of South African citizenship. I don't think a black person would have been welcome there.

MR LANDMAN: I doubt it Sir.

You see Mr le Roux, the point I want to make here is that you were motivated by race in planting these bombs.

MR LE ROUX: If we were motivated by race then we would have planted it where only black people were died Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: I want to put it to you as a person who knows Johannesburg will know that the Bree Street, Von Wielligh Street area is populated by black people.

MR LE ROUX: Not only Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: If I can ask you to turn to page 12 of your own application, page 65 of the volume, paragraph 37. Mr le Roux that appears on your page 12, it's our page 65. You say:

"The motive for the acts by me which I committed on behalf of the AWB was in order to establish a political uprising"

Who would participate in this political uprising? Is it whites, blacks, who is it?

MR LE ROUX: It would have been the Boere Afrikaner, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: But again Mr le Roux, you accept there's a problem in the sense that the AWB and indeed no-one was prepared to go on record and say that these bombs were planted by the AWB? So how would it create an uprising if people didn't know who was planting these bombs?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I explained that to you did I not?

MR LANDMAN: I want to put it to you that this was not your motive.

MR LE ROUX: No, it was the motive Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, I'm just about at the end. If you would turn to page 19 of bundle, that's the smaller bundle, page 19. Reference is made there in a report of the 20th of December '93, about a secret document of the AWB and the first paragraph says:

"An AWB's civil war plan document which talks about wiping out kaffirs and burying them in mass graves was disclosed in Parliament on Saturday, a Sunday newspaper reported yesterday"

Are you aware of such a plan?

MR LE ROUX: Not at all Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Would you associate yourself with such a plan?

MR LE ROUX: Not at all Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: This was never discussed at any meeting where you were present?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, your application itself for amnesty before this Committee, how did it come about that this was compiled? Did you sit together with the other applicants and decide what you're going to say in your application?

MR LE ROUX: This bit?

MR LANDMAN: Yes.

MR LE ROUX: I wrote it myself and handed it to Mrs van der Walt.

MR LANDMAN: So those are your own words in there?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: And had you thought very carefully about what you were going to say before you wrote it down? Did you think carefully about the content of what you were going to say?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson. I could have made spelling mistakes.

MR LANDMAN: No-one is perfect. Mr le Roux, apart from that, the contents itself, that was as far as you were concerned a complete disclosure, a full disclosure of the facts relating to this?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson, except I made it more clear now, I just want to add that. If I make a complete disclosure it could be the size of a book.

MR LANDMAN: So there's a lot more that you could disclose which you haven't disclosed?

MR LE ROUX: No, no, no, most of the questions were asked by Mrs van der Walt. This is my application.

MR LANDMAN: So those are your own words though, in that application?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: And is it just by coincidence that in many cases the other applicants have given similar statements, used the same words, the same phrases?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know, I haven't seen any of the other applicants' applications. I know Cliffie Barnard submitted his and it was only a page long so I cannot see how it could be the same.

MR LANDMAN: Mr le Roux, you might be surprised to know that Mr Barnard's: "bladsy" took up fourteen and a half typed pages.

MR LE ROUX: I'm sorry I must have made a mistake then Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Didn't you get together to discuss what you were going to say?

MR LE ROUX: In a sense yes. I was with some of them and we said "Listen, we must" ...[intervention]

MR LANDMAN: Was there an agreement that there were certain things that you weren't going to disclose?

MR LE ROUX: No, this is the truth Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you, I've no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Sir, your application, when was the application for amnesty actually signed before the Commissioner of Oaths?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: It was handed in on the 10th of May it appears from your application, was it a week or so before, shortly before it went in?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, it was a week or two, in that vicinity. It was quite a busy time then.

MS CAMBANIS: So by the 16th day of April 1997 it had already been signed by yourself?

MR LE ROUX: If you say so, yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Will you just go to paragraph 13 of your application, paragraph 13 of the pre-printed form or typed out form.

MR JORDI: We believe it's 52.

MS CAMBANIS: In that question you were asked whether there is any civil action pending against you and your answer is:

"No"

is that correct? This dash 13(a).

MR LE ROUX: You'd have to inform me what this is about. Is this ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It's simply:

"Was there a case raised against you by those people who were injured or died because of what you did"?

And your answer is:

"No"

MS CAMBANIS: Because Sir, in fact on the 16th day of April you were served with a summons by the Deputy Sheriff at Leeukop Prison, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Which year? What is the date?

MS CAMBANIS: 16th April 1997 at 12H00. The summons was served on you. I displayed the original combined summons to you personally and explained the contents thereof.

MR LE ROUX: Did you personally submit this to me?

MS CAMBANIS: No.

MR LE ROUX: At the prison it works differently. They submit it and they put it on your file. I'm not under the impression ...[intervention]

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much. Mr Chair, we haven't enclosed that in the bundle A. We will make copies and annex that to it.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKWENA: For the record, I'm Advocate Mokwena. I appear for a victim, John Ngoba, a victim of the Bree Street bombing. I just have one question Mr le Roux. Do you regret the loss of lives, black in particular in the Bree Street Bombing or in all the bombings that you participated in?

MR LE ROUX: Any loss of life is tragic but it was not just focused on blacks, whites also died.

MR MOKWENA: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOKWENA

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. The name is Kriel, representing the family of a victim from the Germiston bombing.

Sir, you indicated that the AWB was a para-military organisation, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MR KRIEL: And it also had a bit of a political agenda, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MR KRIEL: Now you were involved with the AWB in 1994 for a period of approximately 14 years, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And you have these military structures, chains of command, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Now tell us a little about the chain of command in the AWB.

MR LE ROUX: The change of command, what do you mean?

MR KRIEL: Chains of command. If you want it to be interpreted we can make use of the apparatus that you used earlier. Do you understand the words: "the chains of command" in your para-military organisation?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Explain them to us please.

MR LE ROUX: Is that now the whole set-up of the AWB?

MR KRIEL: We know at this stage that you have a leader, Mr Eugene Terreblanche. I want the chain of command from Mr Terreblanche down to you please Sir.

MR LE ROUX: That chain of command through the Ystergarde consists of the Brigadier that was there, after him it was a Colonel, after the Colonel ...[intervention]

MR KRIEL: Mr le Roux, I'm sorry to interrupt, would you just name the chain of command. I don't want to know that he's a Brigadier, would you just say Brigadier so and so please? The name of the person.

MR LE ROUX: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe.

MR KRIEL: So the chain of command would be from the leader, Mr Eugene Terreblanche to the Brigadiers, their names are?

MR LE ROUX: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just come in here. I think that you and the witness may be at crossed purposes here. He mentions the chain of command in the "Yestergarde". Perhaps you should just make that clear or else you're at cross purposes here.

MR KRIEL: Thank you.

Let's go through the chain of command and then such ...[indistinct] would come direct from the leader, Mr Eugene Terreblanche. How would you know, I think you mentioned you were a Lieutenant in the AWB ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We're speaking of the AWB now.

MR KRIEL: The AWB, who would that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Not the "Yestergarde".

MR LE ROUX: In the Ystergarde Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: No, in the AWB, how would the instructions come down to you?

CHAIRPERSON: The question refers to the chain of command list of the AWB. I don't know if it exists, but that's the question.

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, can I just complete this please? The chain of command in the AWB itself, is that what you want?

MR KRIEL: Yes.

MR LE ROUX: You're asking me something out of the blue now. The General, I was under General Dagar Thompson of the East Rand then. Is that how you want it Chairperson?

MR KRIEL: Yes, if we can have it as it was just before these bomb attacks took place.

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: I think we will save a lot of time here, it is very clear that the evidence of this applicant was that there was a: "wen Kommando" and that there was an: ""Yestergarde"". These are two sections within the AWB. I think the person who puts the question must indicate because the applicant's evidence is that he was a member of the "Yestergarde". Does this person want to know what the chain of command was within the Ystergarde as he knew it or does he want to know what the chain of command was within the whole AWB, that is now the: "wen Kommando", the complete wen Kommando and the "Yestergarde". I think there was still the: "Rooi Valke" which were the women.

MR MALAN: I'm sorry Mrs van der Walt, if I understood Mr Kriel's question correctly then he wants to know: instructions that were given within the structure which concerned the applicant and reached the applicant, if he can explain how would he go about reaching the leader who is also the leader of the Ystergarde. That is the question. Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, ...[intervention]

MR KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, if I could reply to that. I have never been a member, I do not know how the structures worked. I'm trying to ascertain the structures so that we know what the chain of command is, because there are so many Generals and Brigadiers that are involved in these applications that I am lost and that is why I'm trying to get this from the witness so I can establish that, that I may proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] make it simpler for him then.

Mr le Roux, you gave evidence earlier today that you accept that the decision to use bombs came from the AWB Staff Generals. That includes the leader of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that includes the leader of the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Those instructions that you followed according to your evidence, does that come from the top? How would it reach you?

MR LE ROUX: I understand the basic principle, it will take me some time. My first commander above me was basically Kommandant Abe Fourie, then it would be Brigadier Leon van der Merwe and then the AWB's or the leading figures within the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: The Staff Generals?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, the Staff Generals.

CHAIRPERSON: And then Mr Terreblanche?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

So the orders would come down from Mr Terreblanche right down to your particular level and I take it from your level up to Mr Terreblanche again, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: The instructions are given from the top, but you are correct yes, that is basically how it occurred.

MR KRIEL: And the feedback would return via this chain of command?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Mr Chairperson, under normal circumstances. These things that we went into before the April election, they were not normal circumstance, things changed.

MR KRIEL: Now during the period January '94 to April '95 or let's say to the end of March '94, were things normal or abnormal in the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: We for example, when we reached Trim Park I was appointed to other people who I do not usually have in the order of command in my structure and who were in a different rank before the gathering.

MR KRIEL: But you were a member of 14 years standing and I take it a trusted and trustworthy member, so much so that you were specifically taken to assist with the making of bombs?

MR LE ROUX: I do not believe that that was the reason for that, no.

MR KRIEL: In other words, are you trying to say that the leadership of the AWB did not have trust and faith in you?

MR LE ROUX: They did yes, but that was because of the fact that I was from the Ystergarde and that certain tasks were give to them, that is now the "Yestergarde".

MR KRIEL: You said that at the time of bringing these applications there were broad discussions between yourself and the other applicants, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, we did talk about it.

MR KRIEL: And you drew in draft your applications for your counsel who would then type and prepare the final documents?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And I take it that under the circumstances you were in the same prison?

MR LE ROUX: Not with all of them. Some of them were there and others not.

MR KRIEL: Well, let's deal with Mr Barnard, was he there?

MR LE ROUX: He was there Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Mr Myburgh?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR KRIEL: And did you discuss your application with these people and they in turn with you?

MR LE ROUX: I wrote this application form of mine, Cliffie wrote his and the other applicant wrote his one.

MR KRIEL: No, I know you wrote it yourself but the question is, did you discuss it with each other?

MR LE ROUX: Not word for word, no, nothing like that.

MR KRIEL: Now he's saying: "No" Mr Chairman. May I ...[indistinct]

Did you all discuss it with each other, yes or no?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, we did.

MR KRIEL: Now the Trim Park meeting, were you present at that meeting?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I was.

MR KRIEL: When was that held?

MR LE ROUX: There were two meetings at the Trim Park, the first one when we were called up and then before that there was another meeting.

MR KRIEL: Could you give us approximate dates, I know it was a while back?

MR LE ROUX: Can I just consult with my legal representative please? It was in March, January, February March, January, February, around there.

MR KRIEL: March, was that first meeting?

MR LE ROUX: No, I don't know Chairperson, I cannot remember.

MR KRIEL: Can you remember who addressed that meeting?

MR LE ROUX: At that meeting there were for example, Manie Maritz but I was not at the meeting itself, I did the security and sometimes I went in and sometimes I went out. We had to do the security and see that everything continues. I know the leader of the AWB was involved with it.

MR KRIEL: Who else?

MR LE ROUX: Manie Maritz, that's the two people I can remember.

MR KRIEL: Did he ever address a meeting which you attended?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot remember Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Nico Prinsloo?

MR LE ROUX: I beg your pardon, Mr Etsabeth did attend certain meetings where I was present as well and he was also a speaker, so there were such things Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Did Etsabeth ever give any instructions at a meeting which you attended?

MR LE ROUX: It is possible Mr Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Can you remember what Etsabeth's instructions were?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot remember that, no.

MR KRIEL: Chris van der Heever, a Brigadier in the AWB, did you ever have any contact with him?

MR LE ROUX: Not a lot, no.

MR KRIEL: Did he ever give you any instructions to carry out in the interests of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Do you know of a highly placed, it was then the South African Defence Force officer who was present at one of these meetings?

MR LE ROUX: General Constand Viljoen was involved at certain stages.

MR KRIEL: If I can ask you this, was it Viljoen who said that the army would assist you with rattles, tanks and other equipment?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MR KRIEL: That he would make available to you 40 000 men?

MR LE ROUX: We heard that Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: And that the South African Police would help you to protect this Volkstaat that you were going to start?

MR LE ROUX: There was talk about that, yes.

MR KRIEL: Did any of this come to be?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Did this not make you suspicious?

MR LE ROUX: Afterwards I thought so and I also mentioned it.

MR KRIEL: But Sir, you were a mere 70 to protect the Volkstaat.

MR LE ROUX: I beg your pardon, I did not hear you well?

MR KRIEL: You were a mere 70, according to your evidence, that were going to protect the Volkstaat and you had promises of at least 40 000 men, did you know find this strange and suspicious?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage I thought that as I said, the election, it was not just during one period, it would be during the whole election period and I thought that later on that would realise.

MR KRIEL: When did you first receive instructions that the bombing was going to take place?

MR LE ROUX: The first I heard of it was the Saturday evening, the 23rd of April.

MR KRIEL: And who did you hear this from?

MR LE ROUX: Cliffie Barnard, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think when you sold your business and you moved?

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not sell my business.

CHAIRPERSON: Or closed your business? What did you think would happen?

MR LE ROUX: I was not certain what was going to happen. At that stage people bought tinned food and I knew about the German Embassy who had bought generators in case there is a power failure etc.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr le Roux, I thought you gave evidence that when you left the house with your wife and children you were willing to give your life.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you put your life on the line if it did not correspond with shooting?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct, yes. From the beginning the Volksfront also announced that they would use violence and that violent things would happen and the chances that there would be violence was a hundred percent and that is how they announced it. Not just the Volksfront, all the members of the Volksfront.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that stage did you believe that some of the occurrences or some of the things that would happen would be to create fear in people?

MR LE ROUX: That I already knew, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you surely knew then that in order to establish such a fear amongst the people a part of it would then be terrorism?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that includes bombings?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Now your instructions emanated from Cliffie Barnard, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MR KRIEL: Your instructions were given by Cliffie Barnard?

MR LE ROUX: The direct orders, yes.

MR KRIEL: Now Cliffie Barnard refused to wear rank or show his rank?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: You assumed that he had a rank higher than yours because he was working at the offices of the AWB, in, is it Ventersdorp?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson. No, I did not assume that. There was a lot of talk about that amongst us, that Cliffie Barnard has got the rank of a Colonel within the Ystergarde.

MR KRIEL: Yes, but he didn't wear it openly, he didn't show it openly, you merely presumed that he was a higher ranking officer than you.

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, he says he was told but not by Mr Barnard himself but by other people.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Did you ask Barnard where his instructions emanated from?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, he told where he received it. He said it comes from General Nick Prinsloo. In that operation he was the responsible person.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: So General Nick Prinsloo was the Secretary of the Staff Generals, is that correct, at that time?

MR LE ROUX: No, he was a member of the Staff Generals.

MR LANDMAN: Was he not the secretary of the Staff Generals?

MR LE ROUX: No, I do not know where those names come from. I don't have them in my ...[intervention]

MR KRIEL: Sir, I'm merely quoting to you from page 13 of the bundle of one of your co-applicants, where they refer to General Nick Prinsloo as:

"Die Sekretaris van die Generale staff"

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is possible Mr Chair. I do not know exactly what his rank was, I only know that he was part of the Staff Generals.

ADV BOSMAN: You said something that someone was the Secretary of the AWB or the Staff Generals.

MR LE ROUX: That was when we spoke of Mr Fred Rundle, Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: But before that you talked about someone ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MS VAN DER WALT: I think regarding that and in all fairness to him, I made the statement that General Prinsloo was the Secretary General. That comes from the other applications of the other applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] At a stage. I do not know if he wants to change it.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I accept that but I think it was because of that Chairperson. I saw him as a member of the Staff Generals and I didn't see any other ranks Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, is there an indication till what time we going to run?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR KRIEL: I see I have three persons to my left. I will try and, I'll keep it down to two or three more Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KRIEL: I'm not under oath Mr Chairman, not to answer that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Sir, once again I don't know if you have the whole bundle in front of you but I'm looking at the application of Mr Barnard, page 1 of the Form 1 which was prepared by your advocate and his erstwhile advocate and the question is 7(b) ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What page is that?

MR KRIEL: Page 1 on the bundle Mr Chairman.

"Mention the capacity in which you served the specific organisation. If applicable your membership number if you had any"

and Mr Barnard then indicates that he's a:

"Gewone lid"

of the CP.

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson?

MR KRIEL: Have you seen that?

MR LE ROUX: I see it here Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Now that is totally contradictory to the evidence that you've given today in front of this Commission.

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR KRIEL: 7(a) Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] What is your objection?

MS VAN DER WALT: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MS VAN DER WALT: The question which I heard which was put to the witness was that Mr Barnard was a normal member of the CP and it's written on top of page 2. He did not testify that Barnard was a member of the CP and it's put to him that this contradicts his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me make it easier.

Mr le Roux, earlier you testified that you heard and somehow accepted that Mr Barnard had a specific rank within the AWB or the Ystergarde then. Do you understand that?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I understand that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In this application he was asked in what capacity he acted with regard to these incidents for which he is applying for amnesty, and here he answered that he was a normal member of the CP and I think the question is directed at you in order to get a comment from you concerning this. The fact that you thought that he was something of the AWB but in his own application he says that he acted in the capacity of a normal CP member.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I can't really ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Just to be fair, question 7 of the application is in two portions, 7(a) and 7(b). 7(a) asks to which organisations he belonged and there he answers CP as well as the AWB and then 7(b) asks if he served in a specific capacity within those organisations and there he only deals with the CP and he says he is only a member of the CP and he had no real strong position there.

So if you have to make an inference from the omission, it would rather be that maybe he was more involved with the AWB but the point is he doesn't deal with it at all so I do not think any inferences should be made from that.

MR LE ROUX: If I can add something there Chairperson.

...(tape ends) ...[inaudible] would have ascribed more to him.

MR MALAN: I just think that the importance here is that he does not deal with it and that it's an omission within his application which unfortunately he now withdrew.

MR LE ROUX: I can believe that Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. Just a last aspect. Sorry, I will move to English, one last aspect.

On Sunday you wanted a large bomb to go off in a confined street with high buildings, that was the impression that was created with me, was that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: On Monday, was that when the Germiston bomb went off?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Had there been a change of plan?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson, the Germiston bomb was a bit later than the normal time it would have exploded. It was one of the things that Barnard and I discussed and he also said this.

MR KRIEL: But no longer needed the confined space with high buildings surrounding, as you had the previous day in Bree Street looked for?

MR LE ROUX: No, there weren't any high buildings.

MR KRIEL: Instead it was a taxi rank?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, that taxi rank was by the, one of the purposes there was the Volkskas building, in order to shatter those windows.

MR KRIEL: It was a taxi rank and it was a black taxi rank in 1994?

MR LE ROUX: The bomb at that stage, the indication was that it was placed at the side of the taxi rank.

MR KRIEL: But nevertheless an open space, totally different to Sunday when you were looking for a confined built up area.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson, that is how Barnard and I discussed it.

MR KRIEL: But why the change from Sunday to Monday?

MR LE ROUX: It is because the taxi rank had very congested traffic there, that is why we put it there. I told him that the taxis would stand there and they wash the taxis, they just stand there, they are not busy with traffic themselves. They do not carry people back and forth, the time was past for that. The bomb went out later, specifically for that reason.

MR KRIEL: I put it to you that on Monday the target was a black target.

MR LE ROUX: It was not totally a black target, there were also white people killed in the explosion.

MR KRIEL: And it was done with total disregard for life.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, lives were taken. It was part of what would happen when you plant a bomb and it was the same with the Church Street bomb Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: But the point I'm trying to make was total disregard Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTLAUNG: I would have thought so Mr Chairperson. For the record, Ike Motlaung for the victims, Mr Maseu and Mr Masekwa.

Sir, could I find out, was there any particular format or plan that was followed in identifying your targets?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I received the instructions, plus minus about where the bombs must be put and the actual places we discussed with each other and decided on a specific place.

MR MOTLAUNG: Yes, but tell me, is the impression that I have correct, that to a very great extent you are the person who decided exactly where to plant the bomb?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Now, I'm asking you, as far as you are concerned yourself, did you have any particular way of going about identifying the targets?

MR LE ROUX: I did not have a specific way but as I've explained it to the Committee, I did place those bombs.

MR MOTLAUNG: Tell me Sir, this place that you decided that a bomb has to be planted in Germiston, did you know the place well?

MR LE ROUX: I was there a few times, several times in fact.

MR MOTLAUNG: Did you know Sir, that this was one of the busiest areas in Germiston at any given stage?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: And as a matter of fact I assume that you also knew that this place was in fact next to the biggest shopping complex in Germiston?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: And Sir, I know you have considered this, you seem to say that it is true that it was part of the plan that lives have to be lost.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: But I think that the point that my learned friend here wanted to make earlier on, which is a point I want to pursue, would be the following: Did it matter to you as to how many people get injured? Was there ever an intention on your part to minimise the loss of life or was it always your intention to maximise the loss of life?

MR LE ROUX: I did not want maximum Chairperson, that is why - it was not my decision but I agreed to it that the Bree Street bomb had to be placed on the Sunday and not on the Monday and also that the Germiston bomb would be placed at a later stage.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sir, talking about the Germiston bomb, I put it to you that as far as the building that you referred to is concerned, which according to you would have been the main target, there is in fact a parking area for that building and you did not plant you bomb in that area.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, that bomb wasn't planted in the place we initially indicated. We planned to put the bomb at a different place.

MR MOTLAUNG: No, Sir, I think is it not so that the bomb was actually planted at the taxi rank and not at the building?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is true.

MR MOTLAUNG: And not at the building that you're mentioning?

MR LE ROUX: No, it had to damage the building as well. It wouldn't have served any purpose if we only blew up a taxi rank.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you plant two bombs?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson, there was only one bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Only one bomb?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson, Germiston.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where was it planted?

MR LE ROUX: At the taxi rank but right next to the Volkskas building and the Volkskas' parking. It was close to other buildings as well Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Tell me, as far as the Germiston bomb in particular is concerned, was the aim also to damage the buildings?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Was the bomb placed inside any building?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: You testify that according to your perception at the time this was a war situation. Who would have been on the one side and who would have been on the other side?

MR LE ROUX: The members of the Volksfront as I said, the CP, General Viljoen, the AWB, they were on one side and then on the other side you had the NP, ANC and SACP Alliance.

MR MOTLAUNG: Let me understand you Sir, is it your evidence that any particular person, any person who did not belong to the structures that you belonged to would be perceived to be on the other side?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Did you car whether any of your sympathisers or supporters get killed in the process?

MR LE ROUX: It could have happened but fortunately it didn't Chairperson, so that's that. It was a bomb which would explode because we wanted to carry a message over to other people.

MR MOTLAUNG: So Sir, the magnitude of who gets killed, how many people, whether it's people who actually support your cause, that did not matter with you, correct?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Did it matter?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson. There were whites who died in the explosions.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sir, as far as the negotiations were concerned, did you know what the negotiations exactly entailed regarding your vision of a Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson, I knew. The ANC had a meeting with General Constand Viljoen but these things were never finalised and the papers that were brought to them, no signatures were there, nobody signed them. It was hanging in the air and with specific regard to the plans of General Constand Viljoen.

MR MOTLAUNG: And would it be a fair summary to say that at the end of the day you did not know what the final position of the ANC or any other particular party was going to be on your vision of getting the Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not know specifically what their view was Chairperson.

MR KRIEL: Sir, I put it to you that as far as the Germiston bomb attack was concerned this was directed at the black people. You knew this was a black taxi rank, correct?

MR LE ROUX: It was a place which had a lot of traffic but it was not directed at the black people.

MR MOTLAUNG: Is there any particular reason why you didn't choose a white taxi rank?

MR LE ROUX: Those taxis stood there packed. I mean, if you drove through Germiston, the taxis were always there. There were a lot of vehicles there.

MR MOTLAUNG: No, that I understand maybe but I'm asking you if there was any reason why you didn't choose a white taxi rank or would you do that?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, we didn't do it but I think it came down to it, we would have done it in order to convey a message.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sir, in conclusion I can only put it to you that for me it's very clear that your actions were propelled by nothing else but racism, hatred for the black people.

MR LE ROUX: Not at all Chairperson, I do not agree with that.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLAUNG

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRACHER: You said that the application that you made is, in your own words, that it is the truth and you started off your evidence by confirming the contents of the written document, is that right?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson. I could have made a mistake here and there.

MR BRACHER: No, you see, what I'm going to put to you is not "hier en daar 'n foutjie" but there are massive things left out of the written word which have popped into your evidence this morning, and I'll point them out to you just now.

What I want to start with saying is you planted a bomb on the Sunday in Bree Street, nothing happened, nobody claimed it from the AWB, nobody said the election would stop, you'd now killed innocent people, why didn't you stop then?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage we were apart from the others. I lived and ate there where we made the bombs.

MR BRACHER: You see Mr le Roux, one of the things that we require here is a bona fide furthering of a political struggle. You had a car, you had petrol, you had a radio, you had a farmhouse nearby, you had every possible means to find out what the reaction to the first bomb was and you did nothing and you planted a second bomb and killed more innocent people, now why is that?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, beforehand I thought that we are busy with a war situation ...[intervention]

MR BRACHER: I know what you thought but why didn't you stop and find out what other people in your organisation thought before killing more people and more people?

MR LE ROUX: Well I did not do it.

MR KRIEL: Don't say: "Ek het dit nie gedoen nie", why didn't you do it? Why kill Mr Paul Ontong, my client's son in Germiston when you didn't know what it was doing and you didn't know it was doing anything at all?

MR LE ROUX: That was a series of bombs. I believed that what I did at that stage was right in order to obtain certain things for the Afrikaner Boerevolk.

MR BRACHER: Is a: "reeks bomme" to achieve a purpose which wasn't being achieved at all?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, there the same things comes in, the same as with the Church Street bombing. Certain people died, civilians died and you cannot make a distinction.

MR BRACHER: I want to talk about your motive in your written document, paragraph 17, page 59:

"During April 1994"

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr le Roux, you always talk about the Church Street bombing. Was that the Pretoria Church Street bombing?

MR LE ROUX: Pretoria Church Street bomb, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you compare it?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, it is a way - in London IRA bombings also occurred and people were also killed in these bombings. I quote now the Church Street bombing and it's an example for us to use.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us accept that they did certain things and they - but this is now a question. It does not make right what you did.

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But now the question is why didn't you find out in your first attempt to get people to establish this Boerevolk, why didn't you find out from the beginning, after the first bombing, if it is working, if it is helping in getting a Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: My logic would have said that one bomb would not have done it and I thought that a whole operation was needed and the situation at that stage in the country was that the Defence Force would be involved and that more people would be involved in the whole process and that is why I continued with what I was busy with.

CHAIRPERSON: So must I accept then that the whole series of bombings were discussed beforehand?

MR LE ROUX: No, not beforehand but I knew that Clifton Barnard knew about the whole series of bombings.

CHAIRPERSON: The first bomb will not work, it must be a series of bombs?

MR LE ROUX: I assume so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I'm asking. Did you discuss it?

MR LE ROUX: No, it was not directly discussed as such. At one stage over a period it was discussed.

MR MALAN: If I could just ask regarding the same question. When you planted the Sunday bomb, the Bree Street bomb, did you then know that there would be a bomb in Germiston and that there are pipe bombs or did you have to complete the tasks one by one?

MR LE ROUX: I completed the tasks one by one. That afternoon when we returned from the Johannesburg bombing it was the first time I'd heard about the Germiston bombing.

MR MALAN: And the pipe bombs?

MR LE ROUX: I knew about the pipe bombs because I saw that they were delivered and I knew that a lot of bombings will take place but that was on that Saturday evening when I realised it, when I saw the pipe bombs and I saw that they would explode.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to put the question to you again, you returned from Johannesburg, why didn't you ask or try to find out if the Johannesburg bomb is working before you attempted to plant a bomb in Germiston?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, the broader planning of the bombings I did not do, so I cannot answer regarding that. I mean we were apart from them, we were busy with the operation.

MR BRACHER: You Mr le Roux, you say at paragraph 37 on page 65:

"The motive..."

Your motive.

"...for the deeds through me which I did on behalf of the AWB, it was in order to create a political unrest in order to prevent the then government of the day to continue with the elections"

Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR BRACHER: Without even making enquiries you would know that there wasn't a political uprising starting in this country at all, you would have heard from one of the 70 that there was no uprisings whatsoever in this country and you only had three days to get it right, so you were failing already weren't you?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, in the circumstances in which I was people gathered food, everybody was ready for things that could happen with the elections.

MR BRACHER: But nothing had happened that you'd planned to happen after your best bomb?

MR LE ROUX: Certain bombs did go off throughout the country.

MR BRACHER: There was no uprising, there was no talk of stopping an election.

MR LE ROUX: No, not a big uprising but we did expect it.

MR BRACHER: Let me come to the last bomb, when you planted a bomb at the airport, that was the day of the election?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: By that time anybody with any contact with anything in the world would have known that people were queuing for miles and miles to go and vote for that election. They'd walked all night to go and vote in that election. What's the purpose of that bomb?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I heard that the purpose, and that was from Barnard, and that exactly that we must reach the countries abroad and make them see that we have got these struggles.

MR BRACHER: Now you say that the AWB is para-military, or you say in your application, a military organisation, is that right?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Wanted to wage war. And my learned friend next to me here has put it to you: "Well who was the enemy"? I mean a military organisation doesn't wage war against innocent civilians does it, it's not in the Geneva Convention that that is the way to wage war?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, if you go on the Geneva Conference, it can mean something different but in a war civilians are killed.

MR BRACHER: Not as a chosen target before you even declare a war surely?

MR LE ROUX: I will tell you that when you are in a resistance movement like a para-military organisation then there must be terrorists or acts of terror ...[indistinct]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bracher, you have to accept that this was an unusual war.

MR BRACHER: Are you saying it's a terrorist organisation then?

MR LE ROUX: No, it's not a terrorist organisation.

MR BRACHER: I presume acts of terrorism are committed by terrorists?

MR LE ROUX: Precisely how this country came into the hands of the ANC, it was through these acts of terror. That is precisely the manner in which we followed or used in this process.

MR BRACHER: You see the one thing that isn't in your written document, and it stands out a mile, there is nothing there that says that anybody in any higher structure had as a policy to kill innocent civilians. I've read it and I've re-read it and re-read it in case I missed it. It's simply not there. Now where did that come from, in your head?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bracher, before we carry on, please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think in any of those applications as far as I can remember, there is any allegation of an order as such. Any inclination that it came from wherever. I don't know.

MR BRACHER: Yes, they talk about General Prinsloo.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR BRACHER: Yes.

Can you answer the question?

MR LE ROUX: People die in a struggle and like I said an organisation, a resistance organisation or movement sometimes do not admit things like that and usually say: "No, you do not kill innocent people", it's still happens with some of the ANC.

MR BRACHER: No, no, you're missing he point. In your evidence today you've suggested that it came from above by Cliffie Barnard, that you had to kill innocent civilians.

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: But in your document you don't make that claim.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you're talking about organisational instructions, not above.

MR BRACHER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: As in ...[indistinct]

MR BRACHER: Well, from anybody above you.

CHAIRPERSON: Not spiritually, I'm sure you don't mean that.

MR BRACHER: No, no, not spiritually. No, I didn't mean that.

You don't make that claim do you in your document, that anybody told you to kill innocent civilians?

MR LE ROUX: No, not at all.

MR BRACHER: Nor do you make the claim, except in regard to your own motive, that you it was the policy of the AWB to stop the election, you don't make that claim in the written document except in paragraph 37, about your own motive.

MR LE ROUX: It wasn't an official thing but mean that the AWB said from platform to platform that they must stop the election.

MR BRACHER:

"It was also said that the day when the ANC take over, the AWB will destroy the country with bombs"

That's after the election.

MR LE ROUX: That was before the election Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: And you say it wasn't official in the AWB that you had to stop the election was it?

MR LE ROUX: Not in their program of principles.

MR BRACHER: You choose sites completely at random don't you? You drive along and you go like this and if the chap behind you doesn't see you, you go onto some other random site, it doesn't matter who is there.

MR LE ROUX: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: That's what happened though.

MR LE ROUX: Where Chairperson?

MR BRACHER: You said you pointed out one site and then there wasn't enough parking place and you picked another site.

MR LE ROUX: Yes, it was a parking place or two parking places in front of it. The general one I did tell you, it was exactly the place where we would plant the bomb.

MR BRACHER: But you see in your evidence you said:

"I support the ideologies of the AWB. Anyone that questions our Volkstaat will be resisted"

Now when you killed these people that wasn't your motive at all, to try and resist people who questioned your Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: No, it was to convey a message, it was to create a psychosis of fear and it was a message of self-determination.

MR BRACHER: You also said: "Ek wil dood en verwoesting aan my vyande"

You wanted to do destroy your enemy but you didn't know who these people were who you were going to kill.

MR LE ROUX: Where do I say that?

MR BRACHER: In your evidence, it was your own words and I wrote it down.

MR LE ROUX: Oh.

MR BRACHER: Death and destruction to enemies. Now Mr Ontong who was killed, Mr Semenya, Mr Walker and the other people I represent, you don't know whether they are enemies or not do you?

MR LE ROUX: No, I do not know Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Are you going to call anybody from the AWB in support of your application, to support your allegation that these instructions came from the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: I think most of them that are sitting here would support it. ...[transcriber's own translation]

MR BRACHER: No, I'm talking about seniors for the Staff Generals for instance.

MR LE ROUX: I do not know at this stage.

MR BRACHER: Are you going to call Mr Barnard who you say was to blame for what you thought?

MR LE ROUX: Please repeat the question.

MR BRACHER: Are you going to call Mr Barnard as a witness?

MR LE ROUX: He will not come here, no.

MR BRACHER: Give me a moment please, I'll try and cut out the ones that are repeats.

The other thing you do in your written application is you move from war to revolution, what is the difference?

MR LE ROUX: Well I know that in a war you do declare a war but a revolution is a revolution. I do not think that you can declare a revolution but a war does exist before you declare it sometimes so they're very close to each other Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Can you give me the distinction that you use in your application? I tell you where or how it works, when you're talking about what the AWB said in public speeches, they said they wanted to have a war, when you talk about your motive at the end you talk about a, I'll give you your own words:

"By starting a revolution it would bring fear to the ordinary people"

MR BRACHER: You see that doesn't come anywhere, previous to that, in anything that the AWB said in a public meeting, to do these acts of terrorism. That was never said at a public meeting was it?

MR LE ROUX: No, I think it was said often.

MR BRACHER: Why didn't you put it in your application then?

MR LE ROUX: I think it was something, I think you yourself know you were at the SABC and all those places.

MR BRACHER: Why didn't you put it in here if that came at public speeches, that they wanted to put fear in the general public? It was never said at a public meeting was it? It was never said to you by anybody in the AWB structure?

MR LE ROUX: The other day over the news I saw that the AWB said: "Attack, attack". I think those things were said. It was said over the television and ...[intervention]

MR BRACHER: Where does it say: "attack innocent civilians"? Who said that?

MR LE ROUX: No, that is ...[indistinct]

MR BRACHER: I've never seen that. I've looked, I've looked at press clippings, I've looked through your evidence, I've looked everywhere and I can't find it. Who said: "attack innocent civilians"?

MR LE ROUX: I said from the beginning that it was not an official policy that stands in a book of any movement or the AWB as such. I never said that.

MR BRACHER: Well that's the point I'm making, it was never said was it, by anybody in the structure of the AWB at a public meeting or a private meeting with you?

MR LE ROUX: He would have admitted it in a resistance movement, that to kill innocent people but daily it does occur with resistance movements right through the world.

MR BRACHER: Forget about the rest of the world, just talk about the AWB. Did anybody say it to you, if so who?

MR LE ROUX: No, it was not directly said. These specific words were not used at a meeting.

MR BRACHER: Your motive you say in paragraph 17 of your application:

"During April 1994 my wife and I decided that there's only one way out for the Afrikaner Boerevolk and that is to fight for its future or survival"

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: That was when you decided that you had to go on this terrorist campaign.

MR LE ROUX: No, no, no, fighting there was in a broader sense. It can mean that I fight for the right of self-determination but if it boils down to it I would take a weapon. That was the broader sense in which it was said.

MR BRACHER: What did you and your wife decide, that you would take up arms to defend the ...[intervention]

MR LE ROUX: Not necessarily only weapons.

MR BRACHER: Was it part of what you decided?

MR LE ROUX: I took all my weapons with me, yes.

MR BRACHER: When you and your wife decided that you wanted to fight for its survival, what did you mean?

MR LE ROUX: That which was necessary to obtain, to obtain or to do what we were told to do, we would do that.

MR BRACHER: What would you mean by: "veg"? Would you go and kill innocent civilians, is that what you discussed with your wife?

MR LE ROUX: No, not necessarily. If it does come to that and a bomb would be the means to an end, it would have occurred.

MR BRACHER: When you decided to go and kill other people's children, did you discuss it with your wife?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: What role did your wife play, she was also a member of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: No, nothing, she did not even know about the bombs till after it occurred.

MR BRACHER: Why didn't you discuss it with your wife?

MR LE ROUX: I was not with her at that stage.

MS VAN DER WALT: With all respect, I would like to raise the objection that this killing of people is taken out of context because the all the evidence is concerned with the fact that these people gathered in order to fight a war. It was also the evidence of this applicant, the he said that in a war situation innocent people are killed. That was what his evidence was about, it was never with regards to an instruction that was given to him or anybody else who was with him according to his evidence, that they should go out and kill innocent people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt, I think Mr Bracher is trying to make or it seems that at the end of the day he will argue that there was never such a decision made in the higher ranks of the AWB, the fact that bombs had to be planted and people had to be killed. It seems to me that that is the essence of his cross-examination.

MS VAN DER WALT: But that is not what was put to the this witness. It is not directly said to the applicant that there were no such instructions. He is hammering on the fact that he spoke about the fact that innocent people died and that is what it is all about and that is my objection Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: My point is this, not that innocent people died but that only innocent people died. It's quite different attacking a military target and somebody gets killed in the cross-fire or whatever of because of bombs ...[indistinct] to only to kill innocent people is quite a different league.

Mr le Roux, what ordinary acts of war did your organisation carry out, like bombing police stations or something that represented the State that you so hated?

MR LE ROUX: I said before that in the Sweepslag it was accepted ...[intervention]

MR BRACHER: Ystergarde in those three days, what did they do to attack this hated State?

MR LE ROUX: They detonated several pipe bombs in different places.

MR BRACHER: Where? Tell me what targets and who died in those?

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any State apparatus to which you directed your attacks?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, how do you mean?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR LE ROUX: I do not carry any knowledge concerning the pipe bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's the question.

MR LE ROUX: I don't bear any knowledge about that.

MR BRACHER: There's a thing that I don't understand about your evidence. At one stage you said: "Ek will nie uitermatige lewens neem nie". At the end of your evidence you said something about total chaos, what was it that you intended?

MR LE ROUX: I did not hear what you said the first time Chairperson, could you please repeat?

MR BRACHER: In your evidence you said: "I do not want too take too many lives" and that was under cross-examination. In your evidence in chief you said: "I wanted total chaos in the country".

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that's in order to create the psychosis of fear so that the people should think that something is happening, bombs are exploding and we even would have attacked the power lines and it would have created complete chaos. That would have cause more deaths than any bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bracher, at the risk of giving you a second breath tomorrow morning, we would like to adjourn at your earliest convenience.

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you done?

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at half past nine.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION: 18TH JUNE 1998 - DAY 2

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Mr Le Roux you are still under oath.

MR LE ROUX: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bracher, I think you were winding down.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry Mr Chair, I'm instructed by my clients Ms Siako and Ms Ngwenya after the hearings yesterday that certain members of the public present at this hearing find the fact of the bombings and the killings amusing, they find this most offensive and I'm requested to request you Mr Chair to please indicate to the public not to make light of this matter and to not express amusement at the fact of death and injuries. Thank you.

PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

CHAIRPERSON: My attention has been drawn to what is possibly an unsavoury set of circumstances that occurred yesterday after we had adjourned. I wish to point out the people from both sides of the spectrum have hopefully come here to clear their minds and hearts. Some have come to listen and to even find out what actually happened to people dear to them. The purpose of the process is to prepare ourselves to live with each other in the future and despite what has gone by and as best as we can in the circumstances.

I would appeal to all to respect the feelings of the other and to be particularly sensitive to the obvious emotions attached to the events presently being referred to. It is to be hoped that what I have said will be taken very seriously. Any other matters that I need to deal with before we proceed. Yes Mr Prior?

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson with regards to the applicant Olivier, and we spoke about this in Chambers and she indicated that his application would be dealt with in chambers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes he can step down. We will work with his application in the Chambers, it's not one of those applications that need to stand trial. Yes Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman yesterday afternoon I received a facsimile from Mr Nicholas Clifton Barnard from C-Max Prison in Pretoria where he formally withdraws his application and also indicates that, yes, he withdraws the application and that he makes such election freely and voluntarily. May I hand up that facsimile to be marked Exhibit B. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that done with the preliminaries for this morning? Mr Bracher we finally get to you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRACHER: (cont)

Mr Le Roux you will remember yesterday I left off making the point that you had chosen to kill and cause damage to civilians only. Do you remember us reaching that point?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: It's correct isn't it that the site you chose in Bree Street is about a block from the Post Office.

MR LE ROUX: I was not aware of that at the time Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: We already know you drove past the SABC, you drove through Braamfontein which I presume would have had fewer people on a Sunday than the city centre. Is that right?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: And not only did you choose civilians only, but you chose a place where you would cause the most injury and damage to civilians on a Sunday. You skipped Braamfontein, you decided against the Carlton Centre and you chose maximum damage, even if possible, to make buildings collapse. Is that right?

MR LE ROUX: I said that if that bomb had been placed there on the Monday it would have killed more people Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: No, no I'm not saying that, I'm saying that on a Sunday the site you chose was the site which would cause most injury and damage to civilians only.

MR LE ROUX: No, more to the buildings. That was more the factor.

MR BRACHER: Well I presume the more buildings you get to collapse, the more people are going to be killed in them?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: You see the point that I want to make ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Le Roux, do you know what kind of buildings they were, were they business buildings of flats?

MR LE ROUX: I thought that they were more business buildings and offices Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: But today, can you tell us what the true facts are?

MR LE ROUX: Yesterday I heard that there was a hotel not far from there, I didn't know about that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And we also heard that there was a church there. Were you aware of it?

MR LE ROUX: If I thought it was a church I wouldn't have placed the bomb there.

CHAIRPERSON: But at that stage you didn't know?

MR LE ROUX: No I did not know exactly which shops were where, I did not know that.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were not sure what the situation was concerning that area?

MR LE ROUX: No I knew the set up Chairperson because I drove past there often.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's what's bothering me. You say that you imagined this place to be mainly a business area and now it seems that you are not sure about the fact.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson once again I would like to repeat what I said yesterday. That bomb was to be placed in Johannesburg, that was the instruction and my opinion was to get into Jo'burg as quickly as possible and to get out.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but in light of the question I would just like to know what did you think was the situation then?

MR LE ROUX: I thought they were offices and businesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that you know better, do you think it was correct?

MR LE ROUX: Well afterwards I realised that the whole thing was futile, the planting of the bomb. I mean that is quite evident Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Just on the same point Mr Le Roux, I'm just a bit surprised to hear you say that you didn't know there was a post office just up the road, yet your essential evidence has been that you were chosen for this particular mission because you knew Johannesburg. What is it that you knew about Johannesburg? What did you put yourself out as knowing about Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson the other people involved in this case knew nothing about Johannesburg, they wouldn't have even been able to distinguish Johannesburg from any suburb. I'm not saying I was the one who really knew the place very well, I did not know it very well, but I knew the set up and approximately in a broad manner I knew where most of the areas were in Johannesburg.

ADV GCABASHE: And did you explain this to Barnard and the others when they asked you about your knowledge of Johannesburg, because after all you are the person they were relying on to chose the targets as I understand your evidence?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson we did speak about the place itself and where it would be but Barnard received the instruction that it has to be placed in Johannesburg and I said that I think the best place would be in Bree Street, because of the buildings, we were more concerned with the buildings at that spot.

ADV GCABASHE: Just finally again. This is precisely why it's odd that you didn't choose the post office which is just a block away, up the road. It's a government building, the NP government is your essential target. You choose a place that has shops downstairs but flats all the way up. I'm still a bit - I'm not sure why you did that as the expert who was choosing the targets, just help me with that?

MR LE ROUX: I didn't even know about the post office Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you never see that post office before?

MR LE ROUX: I know there are post offices there and I also know there's a police barracks. I knew they were there Chairperson. I cannot imagine that we drove past it though Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: No the point is, why wasn't it chosen?

MR LE ROUX: The way me and Barnard discussed it Chairperson he said that it was correct what we spoke about, I explained to him how the area looked.

MR BRACHER: You see Mr Le Roux you said yesterday you didn't know where the polling stations were. That was easily found out wasn't it, everybody else in South Africa knew where to go and vote apparently except you?

MR LE ROUX: We could have found out where they were, yes Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: I mean three blocks away is the Town Hall which was a polling station?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: The other thing - the theme that I want to develop this morning by the way is that this is your own private murder with you and your group of people. The other thing that you did when you chose civilians, you chose people that in your twisted mind you thought were lesser people, you chose escort agencies because you thought that they were somehow lower, you chose blacks because you don't have any concern for them, isn't that right?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: You said you chose a sort of lower class neighbourhood. Is that right? You thought they deserved it more than someone else?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, the area Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: But you chose it because it was a lower class neighbourhood. Why is that? In you opinion I'm talking about.

MR LE ROUX: That's how I imagined it to be and that's what I said to Barnard.

MR BRACHER: Don't tell me what you told someone else, tell me why you chose it for that reason?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson the bomb had to placed in Johannesburg, that was the instruction I received. Now we discussed the area and that's where we placed the bomb Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, if that was the circumstances, why did you not choose to place the bomb at the post office which was very close from where it was actually placed?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard was not interested in that sort of target Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Or the Magistrate's Court?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson if I had to choose the targets myself I probably would have chosen something completely different but it was my instruction to place a bomb in Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the Magistrate's Court which is closer to Bree Street, that's also in Johannesburg or the post office which was referred to is also in Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The point of the question is for some or other reason you intended or you were regarded as the expert with regards to Johannesburg and the placing of the bomb was in your hands, according to your evidence. You had a choice, you could decide between the Magistrate's Court a post office and the place you actually placed the bomb. The question is why the place where you did place the bomb, why did you place it there and not use a government building?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard told me that he's looking for a place where there were dense buildings, in other words next to the road there should be a lot of buildings and that's why we chose that spot Chairperson. We discussed it, we discussed the area and I explained to him how the buildings looked approximately. I didn't tell him that there was a post office, at that stage I wasn't even aware of that. I was aware of the buildings, the one's that you've just mentioned, the Magistrate's Court but he did not choose that to be the target.

MR BRACHER: The other reason I say it was a private deed was that - or let me just ask you this, am I correct in saying that the Sunday bomb was decided on the Saturday, the Monday bomb was decided on the Sunday and the Tuesday bomb was decided on the Monday?

MR LE ROUX: No that is not correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: When did you decide those bombings?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know when it was decided, I received the instruction on the Saturday evening the 23rd.

CHAIRPERSON: For all three bombs?

MR LE ROUX: No not for all three as this thing made it's course, Barnard would say the next one there, next one there.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you informed about each bomb?

MR LE ROUX: When I got back from the Johannesburg bomb I was informed that we will get the trailer and that we are going to make the Germiston bomb. At that stage I think he told me that there should also be a bomb exploded at the airport. It was around that time.

MR BRACHER: Well the details were decided weren't they. Until Saturday you didn't know where you were going to put that bomb?

MR LE ROUX: I didn't know but Barnard knew.

MR BRACHER: Barnard didn't know Johannesburg, it couldn't have been decided until he asked you?

MR LE ROUX: No, he had to plant a bomb in Johannesburg that was his instruction.

MR BRACHER: Well you don't know if it was his instruction, do you?

MR LE ROUX: He told me that it was his instruction.

MR BRACHER: Have you seen what he put in this morning, this fax? Can I read you what he says? He says:

"Today the 17th of June 1998 there will be a written document submitted at your office where I take responsibility for everything that happened with regards to what happened at the pre-election time and with regards to the bomb explosions and that I gave the instructions.

So he's no longer blaming anybody else, he says it's him personally. Do you know that?

MR LE ROUX: I hear what you are saying Chairperson. If I can comment on that, it's easy he still has another 80 years in prison, why would he want to involve anybody else, in other words the people who gave him the instructions. That's my point of view.

CHAIRPERSON: But he excludes you in his decision about where the bombs would be planted?

MR LE ROUX: He took the chief decisions Chairperson. A bomb had to be planted in Johannesburg, Germiston, at the airport. I only explained to him how the area looked.

MR BRACHER: The other thing that happened after the first bomb, Barnard went to the head office you said to get petrol money. Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now you could have gone with him and found out what your instructions were for the next bomb, couldn't you?

MR LE ROUX: I could have, but I didn't think it necessary.

MR BRACHER: You see you tried to give the impression yesterday that you were just cut off from the world and you couldn't get any instruction, but that's not true is it. You could have easily got instructions?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I could have received instructions.

MR BRACHER: You also say in your application that you heard things over the radio. You had access to a radio, you could have found out what was happening as a result of the bombs?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: The other thing is that there was no support from anyone else because you said that you expected cars to be stolen but no stolen car was ever provided by anybody above you was it?

MR LE ROUX: At the end the airport bomb was a stolen car.

MR BRACHER: Well let me talk about Bree Street, nothing had happened up until then. I'm talking about when you killed my clients' families?

MR LE ROUX: This was a run up to a revolution and we were under the impression, like I said yesterday repeatedly that afterwards it would continue until we obtained what we wanted.

MR BRACHER: What kind of revolution is this where you are stuck on a farm, you've got no toilets, you are seventy people trying to take over the Western Transvaal, you scratch around in the grass to find a road roller to build a bomb, you search in the bushes to find bits of metal, I mean that's not an organised revolution, that's just you and a group of madmen.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson there were not only seventy, there was much broader planning done. The "Boere Krisis Aksie" would have grasped the whole situation in a military fashion and the army also would have come to our side and that was the revolution for us, it was something quite big. It wasn't only seventy people.

MR BRACHER: But none of that happened?

MR LE ROUX: No it did not happen.

MR BRACHER: In fact of the seventy people some of them threw a few pipe bombs and went home and that was the end of them and they were never ever seen again for months. Is that right?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: And I'm correct in saying that you had no provisions to make a bomb, you scratched around on the farm and found whatever you could, besides the explosives?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson you use whatever you can find in the vicinity.

MR BRACHER: I'm talking about the metal that you used.

MR LE ROUX: If you make war and you're hiding behind a rock then you look for a rock. But the explosives were issued to us and we made provision for that.

MR BRACHER: I've just got a couple of things left. You said yesterday when you were asked about your leader Mr Terreblanche and you said he's a good speaker. Can we imply from that that you don't think he's a good leader. Is that the limit of his qualities, is a good speaker?

MR LE ROUX: I realised afterwards that he was not a good organiser Chairperson because these things didn't work out, whatever he said the revolution was to be.

MR BRACHER: Now tell us exactly, as far as you can remember, exactly what his words to you were in jail when he came to visit you and told you that he supported you.

MR LE ROUX: I cannot remember exactly.

MR BRACHER: Well tell me the best you can what he said to you.

MR LE ROUX: The principle there was that they regarded us as people who have done our bit for the revolution which was reigning at that time. That's the basis of that.

MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRACHER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Le Roux I have a few points that I have to cover and can I just inform the committee I also represent two families, the Matsepane family as well as the family of Nokwazi Gumbi of the Bree Street bombing. Mr Le Roux is it your evidence that Mr Terreblanche as the leader of the AWB, this march that you planned from Koosterfontein Game Farm, did he approve this, was this how you understood it?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: In other words this bomb, the pattern of bomb attacks was with Mr Terreblanche's approval as well as the approval of the Staff Generals.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct yes.

MR PRIOR: And I am going to go a little further, as well as the approval and support, whether directly or indirectly, of General Constand Viljoen?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know that, but I know it had the approval of the AWB.

MR PRIOR: Yesterday you mentioned a meeting where General Constand Viljoen and other members addressed you?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct yes.

MR PRIOR: Now if I remember correctly, General Constand Viljoen established the Volksfront Party. Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct - it wasn't yet ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: I beg your pardon, the Freedom Front?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage it did begin yes.

MR PRIOR: And the Freedom Front did take part in the elections. Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR PRIOR: As well as Mr Hartzenberg's Conservative Party?

MR LE ROUX: No it did not.

MR PRIOR: I apologise, did they not take part?

MR LE ROUX: No.

MR PRIOR: Were you worried about the fact that General Constand Viljoen's new party would take part in the elections while you were busy organising a revolution?

MR LE ROUX: No I was not worried about that.

MR PRIOR: He was the person who would provide all the military support to the revolution?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is true.

MR PRIOR: Did you do any reconnaissance of the targets beforehand?

MR LE ROUX: Directly before that, no.

MR PRIOR: As we understood you yesterday, you could have planted the bomb at one hundred other places in Johannesburg or in the greater area of Johannesburg.

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.

MR PRIOR: Part of your training in the Ystergarde as well as in other sections of the AWB, did you receive any military training as we understand it, conventional training. Lectures, warfare lectures etc?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you receive any political training?

MR LE ROUX: No. The people who joined were political for that purpose.

MR PRIOR: For example the Geneva Convention regarding warfare, did you have any knowledge of that?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I have knowledge of that personally.

MR PRIOR: And do you know that the Geneva Convention protects innocent civilians?

MR LE ROUX: It does also make provision for inner war situations and the fact that innocent people can die.

MR PRIOR: But that is actually a prohibition not so?

CHAIRPERSON: But that isn't approval?

MR LE ROUX: No it is not approval Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: There's actually a prohibition that innocent civilians cannot be seen as the enemy. Is that true?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is true, that as few as possible civilians must be killed.

ADV GCABASHE: I'm sorry Mr Prior, I missed the answer to the military training. I hope I'm not taking you back too far.

MR PRIOR: Yes we did receive military training in the Ystergarde.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Now that knowledge that you had about civilians in a war situation, did that form part of any planning of the end result of the act?

MR LE ROUX: As Barnard put it to me, people must be killed in these explosions in order to demonstrate the seriousness and to convey the message and it's the same what he said when resistance movements all over the world planted bombs and it has the same effect. The more people you kill the greater the message is, but this was not to kill the maximum amount of people.

MR PRIOR: So in other words it was not enough to for example blow up a government building to make some sort of declaration to the world.

MR LE ROUX: I do not know Mr Chairperson regarding this aspect. If he wanted to choose a government building and asked me where, I would have taken him to that building.

MR PRIOR: So if I understand you correctly then you actually acted under the command of Mr Barnard?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I followed his instructions and the Staff Generals.

MR PRIOR: What would have happened if you had told Mr Barnard, listen there are too many innocent people that can be killed here, what would have happened?

MR LE ROUX: He would have chosen probably another person.

MR PRIOR: Did you think about it to oppose his order or to just mention to him that too many innocent people will be killed?

MR LE ROUX: I did differ regarding some of the targets.

MR PRIOR: But in the end you yourself reconciled yourself with the fact that innocent people, as well as people who support the AWB, will be killed?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.

MR PRIOR: This reference to the Church Street bombing, where the ANC accepted that it was one of their actions during the war, as you put it, do you use it to legitimise your bomb attacks. In other words the ANC could do it so on the same basis our bomb attacks were legitimised?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.

MR PRIOR: This group of yours at the Koosterfontein Game Farm where you built these bombs, it seems as if you only built explosives and bombs. Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: It's two places you are talking about now. Koosterfontein is where we built the bombs and where the pipe bombs were made more powerful.

MR PRIOR: Was there no other planning, for example a mortar attack or a gun attack. The only purpose of that meeting was to build bombs, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: I was not at a meeting there.

MR PRIOR: I am talking about the gathering itself.

MR LE ROUX: We all had our own hand weapons.

MR PRIOR: But the way I understand you, it was only for your own protection?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.

MR PRIOR: In other words you are not going into the war alone and unarmed?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage we expected the Defence Force to come over to our side and we would be provided with weapons. There was even talk of "Rooikatte", military vehicles that would be handed over to the right wing.

ADV GCABASHE: Just so I don't ask this later, just explain this to me. You expected at that stage that the Defence Force, Constand Viljoen's grouping, whoever, would assist you?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I thought that.

ADV GCABASHE: Two questions why, and just explain at that stage, are you talking of the night of the 23rd, the day of the 24th. Just explain that to me in the context of the political objective of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: It was spread over that period. It was not specifically on one day that all these decisions were taken, there was a run up to the revolution, those bombs that were planted, and in the process of doing that, the Boere Crisis Action and the Defence Force would then join us and that is what we heard from the AWB's Staff Generals.

ADV GCABASHE: Again this is precisely what bothers me again. Weren't your actions rather premature in that case because all your support structures hadn't come together yet, you had no real signal as I understand the evidence.

MR LE ROUX: Barnard said that this would be the introduction to the whole process, that is why it had to be a really large powerful bomb in Johannesburg.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are really saying that you relied solely on Barnard's information, his analysis of the situation and his orders to act. I mean it was everything turned on what Barnard said. Is this what you are saying?

MR LE ROUX: No the total revolution, but the operations that we were involved in. He gave the orders.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. There are one or two more points. The information I've got is that there was police presence in Bree Street on the morning of the 24th. Did you see any police vehicles?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Indeed the two policemen who walked out of the shop they were injured, they were stationed there or sent there because later that morning the IFP would have marched through Bree Street?

MR LE ROUX: I did not know about that, no Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Was it pure coincidence that Bree Street was chosen. You did not want to explode a bomb while the IFP supporters marched through that area and would then be killed or injured?

MR LE ROUX: No not at all. Our target was not the IFP, as you know, the AWB even assisted the IFP in training and they were one of our allies.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Prior can you just inform us, it sounds as if you are saying that the TV or is it BV would have marched through the streets?

MR PRIOR: IFP, Inkatha Freedom Party.

ADV BOSMAN: Oh the IFP, thank you.

MR PRIOR: Sorry Chairperson, the Inkatha Freedom Party. And if necessary, I will present the necessary evidence. The second last point. You escaped from prison during the hearing?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct. I was waiting for the court case.

MR PRIOR: And you were then again arrested, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Correct.

MR PRIOR: And you applied for bail. Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you give evidence during that bail application?

MR LE ROUX: No.

MR PRIOR: But your case was presented to the court by means of statements. Can you remember how many Affidavits you submitted at the bail proceedings?

MR LE ROUX: No.

MR PRIOR: Was it more than one?

MR LE ROUX: It is possible.

MR PRIOR: I would like to refer to Bundle A. Mr Chairperson the committee can take note of the legislation of Act 2 of 1994. It appears on page 46 of the bundle and it is about the Constitution of South Africa, the amended piece of legislation. Mr Le Roux I would like to put it to you that according to this Act or legislation that provision was made for a Volkstaat in terms of Section 184A. Mr Chairperson in the Constitution, Section 34 they did make provision for a Volkstaat and here in January it was announced. Do you deny it?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.

MR PRIOR: Was it not enough for the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: No Mr Chairperson they believed that the basic concept was that if the ANC takes over, it will not be realised.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Prior I think the legislation, I haven't got Section 34 but it makes provision for a Volkstaat Council and not for a Volkstaat. Are we on the same frequency now.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairperson it is 100% correct, it is a Volkstaat Council in order to discuss the concept of a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I am finished.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Le Roux questions were put to you regarding General Constand Viljoen's involvement with this unrest that took place before the elections. Mr Chairperson I would like to read an article in the Rapport of 2 May 1997, I would like to submit this article. I said yesterday that we had a problem with the photocopy machine and I only have half of it, but the first bit is the most important bit. With your permission may I submit it, I will provide you with the full article at tea time. I would then like to submit it as Exhibit C. Do you carry any knowledge of this article that appeared in the Rapport?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: And from this report it was said that the armed unrest in 1994 could have left South Africa in pain. Constand Viljoen had an army of more than 100 000 men ready. The first paragraph:

"Armed unrest that the leaders planned before the election needed only the press of one button and it had the potential to destroy South Africa".

After you saw this article, is it correct that you also provided me with this article?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I provided it to you. It was exactly how it happened and I saw myself as part of this unrest or whatever it entailed.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were also then present at the meeting of Constand Viljoen in a hall in Pretoria?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the impression regarding what you heard there and what this newspaper article alleged, was it the same as what was conveyed to you?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you carry any knowledge of the fact that Constand Viljoen gave the AWB and order to bring the towns under their control or the cities and that the rural areas would be Constand Viljoen's responsibility?

MR LE ROUX: They said that our orders would be that our cities would be the responsibility of us.

MS VAN DER WALT: Okay. We know now that Constand Viljoen, at a very late stage, took part in the elections. What was your view regarding this?

MR LE ROUX: I thought that it was one of the methods that he used because I knew that he had two options. At the meetings in the "Skilpad" Hall he discussed the option of going to vote but I though he also continued with the option regarding violence.

MS VAN DER WALT: So the AWB or the Staff Generals did not go to the soldiers and say that they must stop with certain actions?

MR LE ROUX: No not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yesterday it was mentioned under cross examination that in your amnesty application you do not mention that Barnard told you that General Nico Prinsloo gave the order. Why did you not insert that into you application?

MR LE ROUX: This application I wrote myself Chairperson, the one that's here, but I submitted it to my legal representative and she took everything and she worked with it and she came back to us with the application in it's revised form and then we dealt with it. I think we left it out.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you carry any knowledge that Barnard in his application would have mentioned it in his application?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then I would like to refer you to Barnard's amnesty application, it's on page 13, paragraph 17: And furthermore I was told by Prinsloo that the bombs will explode all over the country and he gave me instruction to make sure that the bomb was placed in Johannesburg and that they explode on a regular basis. Was that the way you received the instruction?

MR LE ROUX: That's basically the instruction Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yesterday you testified that innocent people died, were killed and you realised that if a bomb was going to explode, innocent people would be killed and you were adamant about that during the cross examination.

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: How do you feel today about the fact that innocent people died?

MR LE ROUX: I feel it was completely unnecessary Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: There was also made mention of the fact that there was a post office and that you drove past it and you said that you did not see a post office. Do you carry any knowledge with regards to the fact that the chief post office of Jo'burg is in Jeppe Street?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I know where the chief post office is Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is it not in Bree Street?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then another further aspect please which ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was Bree Street the target?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Bree Street was the target.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not the street where the post office was situated?

MR LE ROUX: It wasn't discussed as such, Barnard did not want to bomb post offices. That's the point, he wanted a place where there were a lot of buildings.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there ever a discussion with regards to the fact that only government buildings would be targeted?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then one further aspect. You were told during cross examination that you specifically, and the other people there, had their own agenda to act in which ever way and there were only seventy people there. What do you say with regards to that, did you think it was only the seventy people or what was your impression regarding the whole operation?

MR LE ROUX: It wasn't only those seventy men. The then Commando itself also moved up to certain places in the country and they were gathered in big numbers.

MS VAN DER WALT: You already testified that you know of other bomb explosions?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman may I just ask that Adv van der Walt makes available to us that hand-written document seeing she's produced it, referred to it in evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: When can you make that document available Mrs van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this the instructions which I received during consultation?

MR LANDMAN: Yes his hand-written submission that was reworked by the lawyers.

MS VAN DER WALT: I don't have it with me because these were the instructions which I was given and we worked this into a document. I'll have to go and have a look but I'll first have to go and consult, but I cannot make it available now. It was mentioned that he gave me instructions and it was taken up in this document. I do not know what the problem is.

CHAIRPERSON: There's no problem, all the attorney is asking is would it be available considering the fact that it was referred to during your re-examination, but you undertake to look for it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes I will have a look but with all respect, it was in order to illustrate a point. This person did not refer himself to the contents of the document.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR MALAN: Mr Le Roux you testified that you went to get the trailer at General Prinsloo's farm?

MR LE ROUX: I didn't know where he was but I heard that his wife was there Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Where was the trailer?

MR LE ROUX: On his farm Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And where was his farm?

MR LE ROUX: Between Klerksdorp, on the Klerksdorp Road out of Ventersdorp.

MR MALAN: You only saw his wife there?

MR LE ROUX: Yes only his was there.

MR MALAN: He wasn't there?

MR LE ROUX: No he wasn't there.

MR MALAN: Did she know that you were taking the trailer?

MR LE ROUX: Yes. Barnard asked, look can I have the trailer and she gave us the trailer.

MR MALAN: Did he only ask if he could get it, he didn't say that he had an instruction to come and pick it up?

MR LE ROUX: No not at all Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Le Roux what exactly is an Order Meeting?

MR LE ROUX: An Order Group is what you will also find in the army, certain issues are discussed, it's like a meeting which is held and we had them once a month in the Ystergarde, at least once a month.

ADV BOSMAN: And how big was the Ystergarde, do you know how many members there were?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know at all how big they are Chairperson, but I have a suspicion that it was around 150 000.

ADV BOSMAN: So the whole Ystergarde wasn't called up. Were they divided into groups?

MR LE ROUX: The AWB are called up but certain people have certain obligations and then they cannot be there. It's a countrywide organisation.

ADV BOSMAN: So if I understand you correctly it was only a part of the Ystergarde that were called up just before the election, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know. Our whole group who was together was called up. Some of the people did not go.

ADV BOSMAN: Now the instructions, let's call it at the last Order Meeting which you attended, the instructions which were given there, how broad were they and what did they entail?

MR LE ROUX: It was with regards to this call up instruction to the Trim Park in Ventersdorp.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it just a call up instruction or did you discuss broader strategies?

MR LE ROUX: No, it's how we'd move up there and how we'd go there, what we'd do with our house, our cars and the fact that we should take caravans with, tents, it was a very broad discussion that evening.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes but was any mention made of operations?

MR LE ROUX: Yes we were told that we were going to move into certain operations.

ADV BOSMAN: But was there any indication of what the nature of these operations would be?

MR LE ROUX: We, it was discussed the whole Volkstaat idea and that there would be a security group formed and we would be involved in that and that we would also have to do certain operations.

ADV BOSMAN: But except for the Volkstaat idea and that you would carry it together, were other further operations discussed at the Order Meeting. Were there any other discussion with regards to operations?

MR LE ROUX: I think at that stage, I cannot remember exactly what the agenda was, Commandant Fourie was there but it's very possible that it was discussed.

ADV BOSMAN: I do not expect of you to remember all the detail after such a long time Mr Le Roux, I would just like to know, to put it simply, was there talk about bomb explosions etc?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot recall that Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: You mentioned that you differed from Barnard with regards to the choice of targets. Can you indicate to us what was the basis of these differences were, with regards to what aspects did you differ?

MR LE ROUX: I would have chosen a power station or something similar as a target.

ADV BOSMAN: Did Barnard tell you why he did not want that to be the case?

MR LE ROUX: No he did not say, he only said that he had an instruction to bomb the targets as he indicated.

ADV BOSMAN: And now the meeting you attended of General Constand Viljoen, which date was that, how long before these incidents?

MR LE ROUX: I think February/March Chairperson, 1994.

ADV BOSMAN: So it's round about two months before the incidents?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: And then just a last question, maybe you did deal with it, maybe I'm asking you again but it would seem as if the leadership of the AWB is very hesitant to come to the front. You were very unsure about who would come and testify for you here. Did you discuss this amongst yourselves why this is the case?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson I wanted the leader here, I also asked him to be here but he did not come Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: I used the word leadership or leader's corp. Except for Terreblanche, what about Prinsloo. It would seem as if the Generals in general are very hesitant to come to this commission. Did you discuss this with your co-applicants?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson, the basic idea is that the revolution was lost in 1994 and now they cannot suddenly come forward with new different things, they wouldn't gain anything from that.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes but it could help you Mr Le Roux, that's problematic for me.

MR LE ROUX: I agree with you Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: You did make mention of the fact that you wrote a letter to Mr Terreblanche?

MR LE ROUX: The little organisation which we founded and gave a name to amongst ourselves, we addressed three letters to him. It was before the cut off point of the amnesty. One was for the ABW's leader, the one was to General Constand Viljoen and the other one to the AWB leader and there was asked them to please submit their amnesty applications so that they can testify for us in order to give us assistance because we knew that they were part of the whole process.

ADV BOSMAN: Did none of them react?

MR LE ROUX: The only one who reacted was General Constand Viljoen. He also wrote me a letter and I have the letter here today Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry just let me repeat the question. What was his response?

MR LE ROUX: He ensured us that he would mention our names in his amnesty application and the amnesty applications would be submitted and that the papers would make it public what his plans were at that stage and that we could use that. He also presented it as such Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Was there a follow up. Did Constand Viljoen mention your group in any of his applications?

MR LE ROUX: That which I picked up on our radio stations etc, he did mention our names.

ADV BOSMAN: And did you try and make contact with General Prinsloo?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: In which way did you make contact with him?

MR LE ROUX: A while ago he came to visit us in Leeukop Prison.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you tell him that he must come and help as your superiors?

MR LE ROUX: I did tell him that.

ADV BOSMAN: What was his reaction?

MR LE ROUX: He said that they will do everything within their power, we shouldn't be worried.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you talk to him about the question of evidence?

MR LE ROUX: I wanted him to be here Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you ask him General you mustnít do this behind people's backs, you must come here and give evidence?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I stressed that in my letters and every time I emphasised the fact that he was involved, he was part of the plan, please come and appear here.

ADV BOSMAN: And this is my last question and it is about General Prinsloo, did you emphasise to Prinsloo that you wanted him to testify for you?

MR LE ROUX: I asked them to come and give evidence Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Let us stay with General Prinsloo.

MR LE ROUX: I asked him Chairperson, personally.

ADV BOSMAN: And what was his answer to that?

MR LE ROUX: He said that we shouldn't be worried. I cannot remember his exact words, but it came down to the fact that we shouldn't be worried because they will appear for us. The leader of the AWB also promised that he would be here yesterday Chairperson and he did not appear.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. If you just look at page 57 of Volume 1, paragraph 12?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: My understanding of that and please correct me if I am wrong, is essentially that those members of the AWB who participated in this resistance would become part of this Boere Afrikaner Volkstaat Police?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now my question is, is that what motivated you to go up to Ventersdorp (1) and (2) is that what motivated you further to make sure that everybody knew you were participating in something so that you could then become part of this Boere Afrikaner Volkstaat Police?

MR LE ROUX: This was part of my motivation and I realised that we've got work to do there and that we could make an existence out of that, so it was part of the motivation Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And you don't think this amounts to any kind of personal benefit. You know you were really looking at what you could get out of this thing, you personally, more than being married to the idea of your Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: No in my business I made much more money than I would ever have received there so I wouldn't have gained any benefit from that Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes but you see you didn't sell that business, you simply shut it down and you kept that on the back burners so to say?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Why was that if you were really uprooting yourself and your family to go and fight for your cause and live in an area that would be part of who you were?

MR LE ROUX: I did not know what the future held during that time. We took our guesses and we acted according to them.

ADV GCABASHE: Now a related question comes back to the issue of leaving home and as I understand your evidence, you were going there to form part of this general resistance that you had been called up to come and become part of?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: And again, as I understand your evidence, at the stage that you left your home, there was nothing about stopping the elections as such, going up to stop the elections, you were there so that you could gather and ensure that you had a piece of ground that you would call your Volkstaat where you would live in peace as a Volk?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: So really the whole thing about disruption of the elections or stopping the elections as you put it, what essentially amounted to acts of terror, terrorist acts between the 24th and 27th is something you essentially got from Barnard, it's not something you came up with when you came up from home?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson the bombs themselves, I knew nothing of them before the time. I was willing to plant bombs if I had to do it but I didn't even know where. I didn't know anything about the bombs up until the 23rd.

ADV GCABASHE: What I'm trying to understand, and if you could help me with this, is where the terrorist actions, if one might call them, the acts of terror 24th to the 27th and the ideal of the AWB to create a Volkstaat for it's people, how you marry the two - can I just finish because it's something I still don't understand. These acts of terror, as I understand it were not part of the general plan of the AWB and correct me if I am wrong, the AWB said essentially, we will not be ruled by a Black government and certainly not by an ANC/SACP government, the day that happens there is going to be a general uprising of all our people because we will not be ruled by these people, we believe in self determination.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now on the 24th there had been no ANC government, it was left to chance essentially. Yet that is where your first act of terror, where your involvement comes in, that's where your first act of terror starts. The AWB objective had not been created, or rather the environment for that uprising had not been created yet, you didn't know who was going to take over, the NP could have won that election?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson I was under the impression that the AWB did have complete plans to negotiate for a Volkstaat, I thought that and that was my opinion at that stage. I was part of the planning, I didn't know about the complete planning but on my level I knew that we were called up and that were going to take part in certain operations. I did not know what was the broader planning of the Staff Generals or of General Constand Viljoen or the CP, I did not know anything about that, but I knew they had plans, they were busy with it and that they wanted to establish a Volkstaat in that area.

ADV GCABASHE: I can understand that, you see I group underneath what I would call your political motivation, it was there, you were politically motivated but it' the objective that you as a member were working towards, were trying to achieve and it's those dates the 24th to the 27th, particularly the 24th. Where does the motivation and the, where do they conflate, where do they meet each other, you as a person as participating in this.

MR LE ROUX: I saw it like this: The Ystergarde was a specialist unit of the AWB and they would have, or the operations that needed more experience, they would then execute them. They would not take part in the normal operations which for example the Wen Kommando would take part in so that is where I said or thought if they wanted bombs to be planted, this is probably part of the process of the broader plan of the AWB.

ADV GCABASHE: And you would therefore say you weren't simply acting as a group of spoilers, spoiling a process you know you essentially couldn't change, you know which is different to being organised as AWB members preferring a particular objective, you know the spoiler image and the military organised AWB image?

MR LE ROUX: We were highly motivated political ideals.

ADV GCABASHE: The last aspect, which is slightly different is, you know when I look at the documents we have before us and I'm looking at everything, not just your application, the targets that Bree Street area essentially, by 1994 a whole group of, many Black people were living in that Bree Street, Park Station, Hillbrow area essentially. You will agree with that?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I am aware of that Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Right. Germiston, the taxi rank, largely Black people again who milled about that area be it on a Sunday or a Tuesday?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Then I look at some of these Randfontein attacks, I know you weren't involved in those, Black areas. Now I understood you to say that you weren't part of, or you didn't subscribe to apartheid as such, you subscribed to self determination, you try and separate the two. Why, if I look at these documents before us and the applications before us, why these Black areas, Black targets, when I look at all of them here. You know the only ones that I would say was not a Black area per se was the then Jan Smuts Airport and you go and take great care to go an put your bomb in an underground parking area. You know with all the others you make sure that it's in a very obvious area where there will be maximum damage, but with the Black areas you choose, it's specific to those areas and yet you are not, it's not a racial war you say you're fighting. You know your focus is on self determination in line with you and documents and all kinds of other things.

MR LE ROUX: That is not my view of the targets, but I would say the basic idea was that most of the Black people do belong to the ANC and that could have been the motivation behind this.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly then if you say that the whole incident of incidents were targeted at the ANC?

MR LE ROUX: No, no Mr Chairperson. We had two enemies, that was the National Party government and the ANC who we knew would come into power.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was directed at the ANC.

MR LE ROUX: Also at the ANC yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes you see yesterday I understood you to say really it's the NP government that was selling you out, that that really was your major target, NP government that was selling you out and yes coincidentally, at this stage between the 24th and the 27th, those were the people you were trying to deal with and you would deal with the ANC government should it take power. Now on the 24th why go for Black area, you see this is what I keep grappling with ...(intervention)

MR LE ROUX: That was not a specifically Black are Mr Chairperson, the Bree Street area. There could have been more Black people but like I explained earlier on the reason for the bomb was basically go to Johannesburg, plant a bomb and come out as soon as possible and that was the principle.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, maybe I should leave it at that. Thank you Mr Le Roux.

MR LE ROUX: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Le Roux when you began with your evidence you said that you come from a very conservative family, what do you mean by that?

MR LE ROUX: Conservative in lifestyle and my father was also a government man. I was brought up and we were proud to serve in the Defence Force. We went to airforce shows etc. We supported the country, we were patriotic and regarding that conservative.

CHAIRPERSON: As it was under apartheid?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, when you were informed that certain bombs must be planted at certain places or areas, did you question this, you yourself?

MR LE ROUX: I did discuss it, especially with Barnard.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking you if you questioned it?

MR LE ROUX: No not as such Mr Chairperson, I saw it as an order that we must execute and I saw myself as part of the much larger plan.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know what that larger plan was?

MR LE ROUX: No I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: How can you then see yourself as part of a larger plan if you don't know what the plan was?

MR LE ROUX: From the stage we regularly got the principles of what it was about and that there would be a revolution.

CHAIRPERSON: Especially, did you discuss the political results of these events and did you question them?

MR LE ROUX: Yes we did discuss it amongst ourselves. I did talk a lot about politics.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about the bomb plantings. There were certain results and you could foresee what would happen?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct but it was so quick that on the 23rd I was in the whole process and the next day the bomb exploded.

CHAIRPERSON: But on the way there must have been enough time to reflect?

MR LE ROUX: I was driving alone, I did think about it.

CHAIRPERSON: It's probably better that you drove alone, you had time to reflect?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson at that stage I believed in what I was doing.

CHAIRPERSON: One of the reasons why these bombs were planted was to inform the world or whoever about the policy of the AWB and what they are looking for. Is that not true?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson it was not just the policy of the AWB, here were various political parties involved and I saw it in a broader sense.

CHAIRPERSON: I did not understand it as such, but I hear what you are saying. Who would have been responsible for the consequences of the bombings?

MR LE ROUX: I believed that the AWB would have taken responsibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not one of the reasons why you contributed because the AWB wanted to show the world what their policy was?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is the expression of the policy.

CHAIRPERSON: The first bomb was planted on the 23rd in Bree Street?

MR LE ROUX: The 24th.

CHAIRPERSON: What time was that?

MR LE ROUX: At approximately ten minutes to ten in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: And the second bomb?

MR LE ROUX: The second bomb was I think around eight or nine o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: The same day in Germiston?

MR LE ROUX: No it was the next day, the Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: Eight o'clock in the morning?

MR LE ROUX: Nine o'clock in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: That was approximately 24 hours between the two bombings?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: By six o'clock that morning no one had taken responsibility for the bombing in Bree Street. Is that not correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not then at that stage think one of the most important reasons I'm taking part in this is to show the world what we want and here there's a bomb where people were killed and no one comes forward to say we take responsibility and give a reason. What was your position then, did you not think that the plan is not working very well?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson as far as I can remember some of the newspapers did speculate that it was the right wing unrest that was taking place.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that was not your plan before the first bomb planting. Before then you expected, I don't not know why, but you expected that someone in the AWB would stand up and say we planted the bomb and these are the reasons?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct, I hoped for it and I criticised it afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: But by six o'clock the following morning no one had come forward to claim responsibility?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage did you not then, did you know that you were going to plant a bomb in Germiston?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not then at that stage think I wonder if my participation in this is right because it doesn't seem as if anyone is going to stand up and tell the world why the bomb was planted?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson I thought that it was part of the process, I did not know what the main planning part was. I hoped that they would take responsibility and present their claims and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think that somebody would stand up and tell the world. Why is the world so important?

MR LE ROUX: Any state that is created must be accepted by the countries and the world at large.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say there was speculation that the bombs were planted by the right wing?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It was made or created by someone who by coincidence has a white skin. Is that no so?

MR LE ROUX: No I wouldn't say that Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is there such a thing as a Black Afrikaner?

MR LE ROUX: Some people call it that. An Afrikaner Boer is a White person, it's about ethnicity.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the planning of the bomb in Germiston, why would it mainly occur where mostly, if not all, Black people were present, is it not so?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not think that after the explosion of that bomb, there would be Black and White conflict or did you know about it?

MR LE ROUX: That is what we suspected Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not what you wanted?

MR LE ROUX: No I did not want it to take place, I was part of a revolution.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that not important for you to prevent it?

MR LE ROUX: No Mr Chairperson, like I'm saying, if I chose a target I would have chosen a different target.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is why I asked, when the idea that the bombs must be planted, did you not question it?

MR LE ROUX: I did question it and the result of it, I did think about it yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And for yourself, was it not important to prevent Black and White conflict in South Africa?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson the biggest enemy we had at that stage was the Whites, it was not the Blacks as such.

It does not mean that if we are Afrikaner Boere, everybody agrees with our principles. There are other people with different ideas.

CHAIRPERSON: But still, the results would have been far more serious this country if there had been Black and White conflict at that stage?

MR LE ROUX: We expected that the ANC would also act during that period. It was put to us from the stages and from meetings that we had to prepare ourselves for that so it was assumed that there would be Black and White conflict.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about your own personal view. How did you see things. Here is possible large scale conflict between Black and White, am I doing the right thing?

MR LE ROUX: We did expect it.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about you.

MR LE ROUX: I did expect it in any case, the conflict that you are now talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not think that it was wrong?

MR LE ROUX: The bomb plantings?

CHAIRPERSON: No the conflict as a result of the bomb plantings?

MR LE ROUX: I'm not a person who likes conflict, I would rather like to live in my own freedom and in dignity.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's my point, you don't need a professor to realise that there would be Black and White conflict after the bombing of that specific area. Is that not so?

MR LE ROUX: It could have occurred.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Le Roux can you just tell us how you imagined this conflict, in your own mind?

MR LE ROUX: It varies from the Order Groups, we were shown a document where it was indicated that some of the right wing members had been identified to be killed by the security forces of the time in order to neutralise us and I took this seriously and thought that they would do it. I knew that if, and that is the same as the newspaper article of General Constand Viljoen, he expected it as well and just like him, I also expected that there would be chaos in the country and out of that, we would have been able to get the Volkstaat.

ADV BOSMAN: Do I understand you correctly to say that you thought that Black and White would indiscriminately start killing one another and that would have been the right climate from which to get the Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I think so Chairperson. We wanted to enforce the Volkstaat in order to show the world and that's why we planted the bomb Chairperson, but I didn't see a Black/White conflict as such.

ADV BOSMAN: But I think that is what the Chairperson asked you and I am very confused now. The Chairperson asked you if you foresaw that there was going to be Black/White conflict and with that I accepted general conflict. Did you foresee a general Black/White conflict?

MR LE ROUX: I thought it could take place Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: And I also followed it up by saying whether you thought that Black and White people would indiscriminately now start killing each other?

MR LE ROUX: No that wouldn't have happened Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you see it, how was it going to happen according to you. Were the political groups going to attack each other?

MR LE ROUX: Yes the basic political groups, in other words the MK, the ANC, fighters would be involved in certain operations and amongst the AWBs and the right-wingers certain people would be killed among them, that type of thing Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you are saying that at one stage you did question these activities. Did you discuss that with Barnard?

MR LE ROUX: Sorry Chairperson I didn't hear well?

CHAIRPERSON: This bomb planting strategy, you questioned it and also discussed it with Barnard?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you felt that you could discuss it with him and question it?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't a question that you simply followed instructions?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson, but he told me listen these bombs have to be placed there and the instructions come from the Staff Generals.

CHAIRPERSON: You had the feeling that he could have chosen somebody else to do that work if you did not agree to do it?

MR LE ROUX: Definitely Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So once again it was not a question of you going through this because of the instruction you received, you did it yourself?

MR LE ROUX: No I did it under instruction Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you could have pulled out from it and he would have found somebody else?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you wanted to be part of this?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I wanted to be part of obtaining of a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you want to be part of the bombing?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You could have decided not to do it?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you go ahead with it?

MR LE ROUX: I saw myself as part of this team which was fighting for certain principles and it was because of that I said okay let's do that.

CHAIRPERSON: You discussed the whole thing with Barnard I assume also the consequences and you knew why the bombs had to be planted?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that this whole plan or plans would have necessarily entailed the death of people?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR LE ROUX: I don't know Chairperson. I said that that will be the effect, and that's the way we discussed it Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's the point, you discussed it with Barnard and you can't tell me why the taking of lives was necessarily part of the plan?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson in order to plant a bomb and you blow away a lot of bricks, it's not going to draw the attention of anybody, but if a few people died, that's newsworthy.

CHAIRPERSON: So the taking of lives was deliberate?

MR LE ROUX: Yes it was Chairperson. That was my instruction Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's talk about the planting of the bomb in Bree Street, I don't know what it's called in Afrikaans. We all know now and a great part of the community before April 1994 knew that the personnel of State or government buildings came from a certain part of the community, they were White people. Is that not so?

MR LE ROUX: That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not maybe the reason why government were not the targets because the possibility existed that White people could have been killed or that Sunday evening they wouldn't have a job on the Monday?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson, the instruction was that we place the bomb there. If it was planted in front of a post office then it would have depended on the General staff.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you imagine or suggest rather that the bomb should be placed before the post office or other government building?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson I said why didn't we blow up a power station, that was my suggestion.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the reaction to that?

MR LE ROUX: He said no that's not why we are here. The instruction is to specifically bomb those places as we bombed them.

CHAIRPERSON: Buildings with people in them?

MR LE ROUX: Yes buildings with people.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not (inaudible)?

MR LE ROUX: I don't know Chairperson, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But you were the person who had to decide about a specific place in Johannesburg because your friends did not know Johannesburg very well?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson the other people, like I've said, didn't even know where Johannesburg was.

CHAIRPERSON: That's my point.

MR LE ROUX: I knew where it was, I knew the basic set up and my instruction was go to Johannesburg and indicate to us a place where we can place this bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not at a sports stadium?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You could have chosen, it's in the middle of Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard said with the Bree Street bomb he wanted buildings.

CHAIRPERSON: And one of the biggest buildings in Johannesburg is a sport stadium?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well why not the sports stadium?

MR LE ROUX: As I said, my personal idea was to find the quickest route into Johannesburg and there where you find buildings, that's where you plant the bomb and you leave immediately Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think Bree Street was the place that you leave from the quickest?

MR LE ROUX: Is the place I could have disposed of the bomb in the quickest way. To drive with a bomb is not a nice thing.

CHAIRPERSON: I accept what you're saying, I have never driven with a bomb. Now the time when the first bomb was planted, did you know that Mr Viljoen was now going to take part in the elections?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore he was distanced from the plans of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: I never got the idea that he was at a distance from us, we all had the impression that he was following, he had other options to follow. He also still had the military option and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But he exercised his option right before the election?

MR LE ROUX: Yes but he spoke of this option specifically at the meeting at the show in Pretoria, that he wanted to go and vote.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's the point, if he chooses one of the options it excludes the other.

MR LE ROUX: He did not reject the military option Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he ever say that he was going to exercise both options. Then it's not an option, it's two strategies, isn't it?

MR LE ROUX: That correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you keep talking about an option which he chose and the option he chose was to take part in the elections and therefore it excludes the other option then?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, with the two things that he chose, the one was the negotiation with the elections and the other one was the military option.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the last aspect I want to deal with, when you were on your way to Ventersdorp did you know or did you have an idea that there's going to be interference or an effort to interfere with the election?

MR LE ROUX: I thought there would be total chaos and disorder with the election.

CHAIRPERSON: Which you and others would have caused?

MR LE ROUX: Yes which others as well as myself would have caused.

CHAIRPERSON: When you said to your wife look we're closing up the business, we're going to Ventersdorp to stay on a farm and these are the reasons, did you know that one of the things that you were going to be asked to do was to interfere with the upcoming elections?

MR LE ROUX: I suspected that we might be tasked to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: That was one of the things that had to be done?

MR LE ROUX: Look we realised that we had to stop the elections Chairperson, we realised this before the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know how?

MR LE ROUX: No not at all, I did not know the broad plan.

CHAIRPERSON: So how did you think you would go about stopping the elections?

MR LE ROUX: I didn't have a plan, I had a suspicion that it would be by planting bombs and throwing the country into disaster and chaos.

CHAIRPERSON: And you went to Ventersdorp with the idea that there would be about 100 000 soldiers assisting you and that Mr Viljoen was part of this operation.

MR LE ROUX: I won't say 100 000 AWB soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: Soldiers?

MR LE ROUX: Yes soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: But then Viljoen decided to take part in the election. Did you not think then that that would take most of those soldiers away?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson I did not think that.

CHAIRPERSON: Not at all?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson. I though that he was still going forward with his military option.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: ... (inaudible) to page 11 of this bundle by the business day of the 26th, Tuesday morning - page 11 of that bundle A, the first two paragraphs - the AWB actually denied having any part in these incidents.

MR MALAN: There is just one thing that is not very clear to me. You keep talking about the bomb in Johannesburg. At one stage I understood you to say that you drove past the SABC and that you saw Johannesburg as the centre of Johannesburg, I think at one stage you said Auckland Park and those places are not part of Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MR MALAN: But I don't think that came through very clearly. Did you understand the instruction to be the inner city of Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that was the instruction, in the middle of Johannesburg, that means Johannesburg city.

MR MALAN: So when you refer to Houghton, SABC etc why don't you say the city area?

MR LE ROUX: Yes but Houghton is a suburb Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But you never answered when you were asked why not Houghton. You then say: "I don't know"?

MR LE ROUX: My instruction was Johannesburg city centre ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Can we take the tea adjournment now. There's a request from the panel that you lead Mr Fourie, that would really help to give the legal representatives a chance to finish this hearing. Thank you, we will then adjourn for ten minutes.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS