ON RESUMPTION ON 04.12.97 - DAY 9 

COMMISSION COMMENCES WITH PRAYERS.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We welcome you very warmly to this, the last day, of this hearing of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

I just want to express to Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela our concern about the bomb scare last night, and hope that the arrangements that were made will ensure that nothing happens that is untoward.

May I also again just appeal to those of you who are smokers, don't smoke anywhere in this building. It is a smoke free zone. If you want to smoke, smoke outside of the building itself. We would be most grateful if you could do that.

I now call Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela to the witness stand. We have to have a briefer please, thank you.

Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, welcome and thank you for having been here all this time. Are you going to testify in English or Xhosa or any other language?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In English.

WINNIE MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya?

EXAMINATION BY MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson. Ma'am, we have heard over the past eight days, that in the past eight odd years, there have been rumours about your complicity in human right abuse cases.

We have heard over the period that there have been smear campaigns associating you with these things. We have heard about impressions which people have held about you in association with these human right abuses. We have heard over the past eight days that over the eight years odd, there have been beliefs about your association in these things. We have sat over the eight years, and listened to hearsay evidence linking you to these things.

We have over the past eight years, also had statements from deceased persons that seek to associate you with these human right violation cases.

We have heard over the past eight years allegations which have been levelled against you. We have also heard facts of assaults that have been inflicted on some of the victims. We have also heard facts about the deaths of various people. We have heard over the past eight days various conspiracies that have been wound up around these issues and we have seen over the past eight days, even newspaper headlines, today being the last day of the hearing, that you are a police informer.

I think the rest of the country and the world perhaps, has waited for an opportunity that you meet all these allegations and I hope to take you through various aspects of it. My professional judgement though is that we may not be able to meet each and every such allegation and or rumour and meet it adequately, but it would be incumbent on us to address main areas that have arisen during the past eight days.

Can I then draw your attention to the first area which is the four young men who were staying at the Methodist manse. When do you for the first time meet Katiza Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My recollection is that I met Cebekhulu for the first time on the 29th of December.

MR SEMENYA: What were the circumstances?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The circumstances were that I was informed by Falati that there was a sick young boy who was in the manse in the care of Rev Paul Verryn and that this boy was claiming that he had been sodomised.

Falati stated that she doubted his state of mind, because he was sitting at the doorstep of the bedroom and he was threatening to assault Rev Paul Verryn.

MR SEMENYA: At that time, how long had you known Mrs Xoliswa Falati?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think I had known her for a few months when she came over to me to ask for help.

MR SEMENYA: What was your understanding of her in terms of the politics of the day?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not know her before. She came to me and informed me that her house had been bombed in the East Rand and she was with her daughter. She said I should please assist her with placing her daughter in school and that she herself had no place to stay.

MR SEMENYA: Did you place the daughter in school?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did. I placed the daughter in school in Orlando East.

MR SEMENYA: On the day of the 29th of December 1988, was Katiza brought to you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, she brought Katiza to me.

MR SEMENYA: And what did you do with him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I took Katiza to Dr Asvat.

MR SEMENYA: Why?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Because I wanted to check firstly his state of mind, and the allegation he was making. I didn't know to what extent it had affected him.

MR SEMENYA: Maybe let us confront the problem at this moment. Katiza in the book said that there was a conspiracy that you and him would then frame Bishop Verryn with allegations of sodomy. What is your response?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, that was a ridiculous accusation on his part. At that stage I hardly knew Rev Paul Verryn and I don't even recollect exactly when I met him.

MR SEMENYA: And I think the evidence is common cause, you then took Katiza to Dr Asvat. Was he examined?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he was examined.

MR SEMENYA: Did you take Katiza to Dr Asvat again?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, there was no need to take him back again. Dr Asvat stated that specialists were away and that he would make an appointment around January, because it was the end of the year, December.

MR SEMENYA: If you had conspired with Katiza to fabricate a lie, would you have taken Katiza to the Doctor?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon?

MR SEMENYA: If you had conspired with Katiza to fabricate this story, would you then have taken Katiza to see a Medical Practitioner?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There would be no logic in that at all. We didn't need Dr Asvat's opinion for a formulated lie.

MR SEMENYA: And later in the day came the other young men, Mekgwe, Thabiso Mono and the others. Did you send for these boys, or young men rather?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, whilst I was away at Dr Asvat's surgery, Falati advised me on my way back, that she had sent for the rest of the boys, because she believed that they were similarly affected. I hardly knew the ages of those boys and I have no problem at all with the kind of life Rev Paul Verryn was alleged to lead by Falati.

I have no problem with two consenting adults engaging in that kind of life, but I had a problem when I was told that there were these children who had gone to seek refuge at the manse, and they were exposed to that.

MR SEMENYA: Did you know that the young men were removed from the manse forcibly?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No. Falati told me that she went to fetch them to protect them and if I recollect well, actually she was going to try and place them elsewhere if this had been confirmed by her.

MR SEMENYA: Did you have occasion to get the version from these young men about this allegations?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No. There was no need for me to do that. The reason why they took the bus was in fact because I was using the kombi and on my way back, I was to deposit Falati and Katiza and proceed to Brandfort.

MR SEMENYA: What car were you using at that time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was using my kombi.

MR SEMENYA: Was the Audi around that time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I think I had lost the Audi about three or four years back.

MR SEMENYA: Now, in some brief format, we know now that the young men were assaulted by Richardson and the others. Did you witness any of this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I didn't.

MR SEMENYA: Did you see any injuries on the young men?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I didn't.

MR SEMENYA: Was there a point at which you gained a view or an impression that the young men staying at your house, were staying there under some cohesion?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not at all, until there were rumours to the effect that there were boys who were forcibly kept in my house.

MR SEMENYA: We have heard the evidence from members of the then Crisis Committee. Did you get a visit from a Crisis Committee?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not get a visit from a Crisis Committee, I got a visit from church leaders. Various church leaders and they didn't come on the same day.

MR SEMENYA: Was there a concern raised about the young men at one point by the church leaders?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: What was your reaction to that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My reaction was when our family Doctor and a close friend of the family, Dr Motlana, came and expressed these concerns and said that the church actually wanted these children, because they were believed to have been forcibly removed and forcibly staying at my place, I then handed them over to him.

MR SEMENYA: At this point, which house were you staying in?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was in Diepkloof.

MR SEMENYA: And why had you left Orlando West?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My house had been burnt down in Orlando West.

MR SEMENYA: Did you know why it was burnt down?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I didn't know why it was burnt down, until there were enquiries and we heard publicly that it was burnt because of the boys who were staying at my place.

MR SEMENYA: Was Rev Chikane responsible in any form around that time with the house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Rev Chikane actually came the very same day the house was burnt down. I had been at University, I was studying at the time. On our return with Zinzi, we were then confronted with this, the house was burnt down, and Rev Chikane came to see us at my office which I had in Orlando.

MR SEMENYA: Can you help us with the context here. How was it that various young people would come and stay at your house during those days?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Various youths came to seek refuge in my house. Originally when I returned from Brandfort I found a state of chaos within the community, youths were fighting amongst each other and these were youth organisations, democratic youth organisations. It was SACO and SOSCO I remember very well.

They were fighting with gangsters and I brought them around a table to discuss those problems. And that is how they came to stay at my house. They were on the run from the police for one thing or another.

MR SEMENYA: And we have already heard there was then a decision to form a football team?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, they took that decision to form a football team and they informed me about it.

MR SEMENYA: Did they approach you about the outfits and tracksuits for the football team?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is how in fact they came to report to me. They wanted my assistance in so far as getting them football uniforms. They didn't have resources of their own. They were youths who had been displaced in their homes and from the schools.

MR SEMENYA: Did you attend any of their soccer games?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I do not play soccer, I didn't attend any of their soccer games. I do recollect though attending the first game they played in Orlando West.

MR SEMENYA: Then we know there was a time when there were concerns about the activities of the Mandela United Football Club. Did you discuss this matter with your then husband?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he did discuss it with me.

MR SEMENYA: And what was the decision about the football team?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He instructed me to dissolve the football team.

MR SEMENYA: And what did you do?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did just that. I told the boys that the instruction from Robben Island was that, from Pollsmoor was that the football team must be dissolved.

MR SEMENYA: What became of the tracksuits and the jerseys?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not take them back because they had already been using them and they were not using them only to play soccer. They just used to wear them.

MR SEMENYA: We saw even Jerry Richardson had one of the tracksuits during these hearings, would you know how he came of this tracksuit?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have no idea. I suppose it was part of the public exercise to play to the gallery of the international media.

MR SEMENYA: Let us now talk about another area which is the unfortunate death of Dr Asvat. What was your relationship with him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had a very close relationship with Dr Asvat. He was not only my Doctor when I was in Brandfort, he visited me frequently in Brandfort and he was the only Doctor who ran clinics, community clinics for me in Brandfort.

He volunteered that service because he said he was holding a health desk within AZAPO.

MR SEMENYA: How did the information about his death strike you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: How did it?

MR SEMENYA: How did the information about his death strike you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was deeply shocked and very saddened.

MR SEMENYA: We have heard here the evidence of the killers, Dlamini and Mbatha who on one version would say that they committed the murder on Dr Asvat at your instructions. Had you met Mbatha before?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I actually saw them for the first time here.

MR SEMENYA: Had you met Dlamini before?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had never met any of them.

MR SEMENYA: And around this event, the suggestions and insinuations were that you would have probably resisted some form of criminal prosecution because there were allegations which were made by these two people at the time of their arrest. Did you have any contact with the machinery of the criminal justice system to influence their decision one way or the other?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I did not. When these allegations started surfacing, I then contacted my lawyers and advised them that this was happening and there were media reports to that effect.

I then went to them and instructed them to advise whoever was spreading these rumours, that if they had any case against me, I should be charged.

MR SEMENYA: Speaking about being charged and going back a little to the death of Stompie. Did you have an occasion to be told by say Mr Mufamadi that they had suspicions that Katiza was an informer?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not at all. I was shocked actually when I learnt here in this forum, that Sydney Mufamadi had this information at his disposal.

MR SEMENYA: If you were advised at the time that there was a suspicion that he is an informer, how would you have handled the situation?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I would have handled the situation differently. I would have had to rebuke various actions I had taken to try and resolve these rumours, the question of these rumours and perceptions.

MR SEMENYA: We have also heard that the criminal investigations around the death of Dr Abu-Baker Asvat were re-opened. Were you ever in discussion with the Minister for Safety and Security around these issues?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was similarly shocked to learn that not only was my own colleague, Sydney Mufamadi holding that knowledge that there was this process in place. I was shocked to learn that he was proceeding with these investigations without even just the courtesy of advising a colleague and a political colleague for that matter, that there was this problem and not asking me to try and help him resolve it. I would have been free to explain to him whatever explanation he would have wanted from me.

MR SEMENYA: Were there any occasion or opportunity for him to request a statement from you if he had wanted to?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He would have obtained a statement from me and much more than that, as much cooperation as he would have wanted from me, in relation to this matter.

MR SEMENYA: Just as a matter of tidying up that aspect, there was a statement now we know, issued by the Crisis Committee.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Issued by?

MR SEMENYA: Issued by the Crisis Committee. Did you confront the Minister about that statement?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I did. We were in the workshop of COSATU and the ANC and Mufamadi was sitting next to me when I confronted him with the information which was all over the papers at that point.

I asked him about the statement which was referred to in the media. I asked him if he knew anything in fact about the paper which was supposed to have been sent to Lusaka. His response to me was that didn't I recollect that there was no longer a Crisis Committee at that point.

MR SEMENYA: When you discussed it with Mr Makoena, he confirms that, did you people have the actual statement?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, we were referring to what was contained in the media. We did not have any statement before us and all, when I heard what he said here, I can only presume there was confusion about the papers and we were talking at cross-purposes.

MR SEMENYA: Jerry Richardson says you ordered the killing of Stompie.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is ludicrous and the worst lunacy.

MR SEMENYA: When do you know for the first time about the death of Stompie?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I learnt of Stompie's death in the media, round about the time that whole thing exploded in the papers.

MR SEMENYA: Shall we talk a little now about Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. What was your contact with Lolo Sono?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My contact with Lolo Sono was based on his relationship with Tebogo, one of the cadres I placed in Jerry Richardson's house.

MR SEMENYA: What was his function, Lolo Sono, in relation to Tebogo?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was my courier.

MR SEMENYA: What does that mean?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was a go-between between myself and that particular unit. I could not communicate with that unit directly. They were guerillas and they were underground and of course I was the obvious person who would be targeted by the police and they would know if I was openly communicating with the cadres.

MR SEMENYA: And we now know that the two cadres were killed in Jerry Richardson's house. Why did you send him there?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was my courier and we needed to communicate with Tebogo and it was in fact Tebogo who needed to communicate with him.

MR SEMENYA: Now let me tidy up this one aspect first. Why did you ask Richardson to house Tebogo and Sipho?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I asked Richardson to house them because Tebogo had grown very concerned about his stay with his uncle, whom he said was Mr Sono.

He said he was worried about his security and safety there and asked me to remove him.

MR SEMENYA: Did you know at the time that Richardson was a police informer?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had no idea.

MR SEMENYA: On the day that the two cadres were killed in Richardson's house, did you see Lolo Sono at all?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had picked up Lolo from his home and had him dropped near Mzimhlope where Richardson was staying and where Tebogo was.

MR SEMENYA: Did you see them ever again?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have never seen them, I have never seen him again.

MR SEMENYA: Did you know the friend, Shabalala Siboniso?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I don't know that person.

MR SEMENYA: Richardson says he killed these two gentlemen on your instruction?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is ridiculous.

MR SEMENYA: Now, can I put to you the various allegations and or statements that have come during these proceedings and the closed Section 29 hearings?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: There was evidence by Phumsile Dlamini that you would have assaulted her, because of your jealousy of her then boyfriend who we can't trace now. What is your response?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I regard that statement as totally ludicrous.

MR SEMENYA: In fact I must say that Jerry Richardson, yesterday on the same version says you instead intervened when this young lady was hit and you ordered that she must be taken to a place of safety. Did you hear that evidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard that evidence, as I heard lots of things for the first time said here.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Nicodemus Sono said the last time he saw his son, he was in a vehicle, in a kombi, wherein you were a passenger. What is your reaction to this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is true that he last saw his son with me in that kombi when I went to collect him to take him to Tebogo.

MR SEMENYA: He states that at that time, Lolo Sono was injured?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have no idea why he is making up that fabrication, safe to say I suppose, he is on this band wagon to lead this false fabrications.

MR SEMENYA: John Morgan also testified and I think the import of his evidence is that when he supported a particular position in the Supreme court, he was laying to protect you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I would have never needed to be protected by that type of character of the John Morgan quality.

MR SEMENYA: Who was John Morgan and what was your relationship with him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: John Morgan is a neighbour and he is one of those neighbours who would come home, almost every day whenever he wasn't doing something, and he was also a driver. So whenever I needed to be driven around, sometimes, I requested him if Jakes was not available.

MR SEMENYA: And would he drive you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I did request him to drive me now and again for various errands.

MR SEMENYA: Then we heard the evidence of Xoliswa Falati that maybe to summarise it would be the best thing to do, that there was a Disciplinary Committee at the residence where you stayed?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard of that Disciplinary Committee for the first time in the in camera hearing.

MR SEMENYA: That there was a register on which all the complaints of members of the community would be entered.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I know of no such a register.

MR SEMENYA: That you and your daughter Zinzi would then preside over this hearings?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As you have heard in these proceedings, whenever it suited whatever agenda, my daughter's name is dragged in at random in the most ridiculous of evidences I have ever heard.

MR SEMENYA: How old was Zinzi at that time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Zinzi was born in 1960.

MR SEMENYA: Now, did you know Maxwell Madondo?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I knew Maxwell Madondo. He was one of the boys that came with a group from Natal.

MR SEMENYA: Did you have anything to do with the killing of Maxwell Madondo?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: How could I have anything to do with that killing? I saw the first reports which purported to link me even to his death. That was one of the boys I placed in school, he was attending school in Orlando West.

MR SEMENYA: On the day of his death, according to the information you have, where was he from?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was from school, from what I learnt.

MR SEMENYA: And around this event, was the burning of the house of Mrs Chili.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard so.

MR SEMENYA: Did you order anybody to burn the house of Mrs Chili?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Why would I order the burning of the house of Dudu Chili? I had absolutely nothing against her. I hadn't seen her for years and when I did know her, she is one of the women I had worked closely with. I had great respect for her.

MR SEMENYA: Did you know that you were associated with the burning of the house by any means?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I saw that in the media.

MR SEMENYA: Did Mrs Chili come and speak to you about the allegation that her son is being threatened?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, she did not.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know anything that there was a decision to kill her son because he is refusing to play for the Mandela United Football Club?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That logically sounds very ridiculous to me. I know nothing about it and I don't know of incidents where boys were forced to join the club. That was not my understanding of how they functioned.

MR SEMENYA: Then Ma'am, we have also heard the evidence of Paul Erasmus around the disinformation that was circulated around the time. What do you know about this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At that time, I did not have official information about STRATCOM. All I knew at that time, was that there was this machinery used by the State to discredit the African National Congress and that I had been targeted for that.

MR SEMENYA: What type of stories were made in the media about you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There was very negative reporting. As a matter of fact, the negative reporting which started then has culminated to where we are today. That is why when no one owned the document which purported from the Crisis Committee, I personally believed that it had STRATCOM connections because we knew, at least I knew at the time, that there were reporters who alleged to be working with the police, who were in fact planted by the police, by the Security Branch in the media.

MR SEMENYA: Was there any truth about these allegations and stories that were written about you for instance ... (tape ends)

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Reporters like Thandi Khubule, reporters like Norma Venda, who were alleged to be associated with the police at that time. I then concluded that they must be STRATCOM reports.

MR SEMENYA: Well, I must put it that was there any truth to the allegation that you would have had a relationship with the Archbishop?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I hope he didn't hear that. It is as ludicrous as it sounds now. There were pamphlets all over Soweto and a large number of them, dumped in my house which was under construction at the time. There was a photograph of myself and him.

I think it was one of the occasions when I attended a meeting and he hugged me as he does here every day.

MR SEMENYA: Let us talk about Lerothodi Ikaneng. Did you order that he must be killed?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I gave no such an order, it is ludicrous to suggest that.

MR SEMENYA: Now, part of the explanation which is offered for the killing of Dr Asvat, is that he would have been killed because he had advised you that the medical condition of Stompie required him to be taken to hospital. Was there such a discussion between you and the Doctor?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Evidence has been led here by the very people who are supposed to have been subjected to these atrocities, by myself. They themselves have confirmed that they were not seen by Dr Asvat.

I did not take any of those boys to Dr Asvat, nor did he come home to visit them and examine them.

MR SEMENYA: And there was an allegation of an altercation between you and Dr Asvat, is this correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is one of those hallucinations I have heard here for the first time.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is one of those hallucinations I have heard here for the first time. I could have never entered into any arguments with Dr Asvat.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know Vincent Siphako?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have heard here that Vincent Siphako is the person I knew as comrade V.

MR SEMENYA: He would have died in a car accident?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes. Comrade V died in a car accident.

MR SEMENYA: It is said that his death was then revenged, I think that is the connotation that comes, by the members of the Mandela United Football Club. Do you know anything about this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is the most ridiculous suggestion I heard here. Firstly he had no direct communication with the boys who were in my premises, except those who were couriers.

MR SEMENYA: We have also heard the evidence of Thamisa Tswayo. Did you know him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I do not know him.

MR SEMENYA: Phumsile Dlamini, the lady who testified and said you had assaulted her, did you know her?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I recollected seeing her face when I saw her here, otherwise I did not know her, so I did not even remember her face when her name was put across to me.

MR SEMENYA: The evidence of Pelo Mekgwe, he is one of the gentlemen that was with you at a press conference, can you tell us what were the circumstances, how did you make contact with him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He telephoned me from the base in Port Elizabeth. He said that he was very concerned about the reports he was seeing in the media and he wanted to be put through to my lawyers, to assist me in clearing those perceptions.

At that stage, I think it was in all the papers, that I was to be subpoenaed by the Truth Commission.

MR SEMENYA: And part of the rumour that was circulating at the time, is that you would have facilitated his escape out of the country. Did you do this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not do so, as he testified himself, to that effect.

MR SEMENYA: And speaking about leaving the country, did you help Katiza Cebekhulu to evade the cause of justice and leave the country?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I did not.

MR SEMENYA: Katiza said at length to be describing how you would have made an ultimatum to him that if he did not leave the country, you would kill him. What is your response to this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As far as I am concerned, Katiza is a mental patient and he would have hallucinated like that, there was nothing like that. That is pure fabrication on his part.

MR SEMENYA: And in pertinent details he says that he saw you stab Stompie with a object, twice. What is your response to that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well the murderer of Stompie testified himself to the effect that that is ludicrous.

MR SEMENYA: What was your understanding of the circumstances that led to the mass democratic movement distance, making a national call that democratic formations must distance themselves from you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What is the question?

MR SEMENYA: What was your understanding of issues at the time when the MDM called that democratic formations must distance themselves from you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My understanding was that in fact they based that on the perceptions surrounding myself and the Football Club at the time.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know Susan Maripa?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I do not know Susan Maripa.

MR SEMENYA: Peter Dlamini?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know Peter Dlamini.

MR SEMENYA: Speaking about this, how did you address the young men that were staying in your house? Was it with their full names and if not, why not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I addressed them with their nicknames for their own security. As I have stated earlier most of them were on the run from the Security Forces for one thing or another and it was safer for all of us to know them by nickname.

MR SEMENYA: And were there any MK's that were staying in the house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: How could any cadre stay in a police station. My house was virtually a police station.

MR SEMENYA: What was the arrangement at the house though, were any of these young men living inside the house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, they lived in their own back room, a little hut which was there.

MR SEMENYA: And did they leave and come on your instructions as we are told ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, if you could just help, sorry to interrupt you, saying the house which - it will be just a help if you said Orlando West, the new or the old and Diepkloof.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson. Maybe let us describe the houses. The Orlando West house, what type of house was this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was originally a two roomed house which I have partitioned and it has back rooms.

MR SEMENYA: Where was Zinzi's bedrooms?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was one of the back rooms. One of the back rooms.

MR SEMENYA: One of the back rooms?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, back, back rooms. Right at the back. There is the house and then there are back rooms.

MR SEMENYA: Is the back rooms separate in terms of structure from the main house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is a totally separate structure.

MR SEMENYA: And there is reference to a place called Lusaka.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, it was where the boys stayed at the back of Zinzi's room. They built a shack there.

MR SEMENYA: Did you use to go into this shack, Lusaka?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, not at all, it was just a boys' room.

MR SEMENYA: Would the boys come and stay and live in the main house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, not at all. They stayed completely away from the main house, at the back.

MR SEMENYA: Now, let us talk about the house in Diepkloof. Where would the boys stay?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There are also back rooms there, and they stayed in those back rooms.

MR SEMENYA: How big are the walls around the property?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The whole property, it is hardly fenced actually. The property, there is just a wall that divides me from the two neighbours on the side. The front hasn't got a wall.

MR SEMENYA: We understand that is where the Thabiso, Pelo and the Mono's were, is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And we are told that they were held at that house against their will. How difficult even at the level of conjecture, would it have been for anyone of them to escape?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As I have stated, there is no wall in front. There are the two walls that divide the house from the neighbours.

And access is very easy to the house.

MR SEMENYA: How high are the walls?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: About this height.

MR SEMENYA: Is there a gate?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, in front there is a small gate where we entered.

MR SEMENYA: Is it locked?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, in fact it is broken and is has been broken ever since.

MR SEMENYA: And speaking about the house, there is a sliding door at the back next to the jacuzzi? Was that sliding door in a working condition?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, it still isn't in a working condition even now.

MR SEMENYA: Was it in a working condition when you first went to that house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, it was not.

MR SEMENYA: Tholi Dlamini, did you know him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I knew Tholi.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know the circumstances that led to his death?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: We heard that he had been killed by Sizwe.

MR SEMENYA: Was it on your instructions?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: How could that have been the case? What would have led to that? It wasn't on my instructions.

MR SEMENYA: There are a number of allegations which have been made and counter-allegations. Let us just attempt to deal with a few of those.

When do you for the first time meet Senior Superintendent Moodley?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In this forum. I met him for the first time here.

MR SEMENYA: We have heard that he would have been coming to your house frequently.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is one of those ludicrous fabrications.

MR SEMENYA: Did you influence the police investigations at all?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Which police investigations?

MR SEMENYA: That Moodley, Hesslinga and Dempsey would have been involved with?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: But I met the man here for the first time, how could I have any remote influence on him.

MR SEMENYA: Had you met Senior Superintendent Dempsey?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I had.

MR SEMENYA: What were the circumstances?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was the Investigating Officer in my trial, the kidnapping matter in relation to Stompie.

MR SEMENYA: Did he confront you with the information that he had that you would have been associated with any of those criminal conducts?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard for the first time here.

MR SEMENYA: Would he have had an opportunity to take a statement from you if he had elected to?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Dempsey had no problem whatsoever in locating me, whether I was out of town, he knew, he had resources to communicate with me.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I would stop here for the witness to take questions. The tenor of most of the allegations have been precisely that, just allegations for now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya, you are quite certain you do want to, as it were, rest your case?

MR SEMENYA: Yes, I am certain. We would nevertheless re-examine should certain areas arise which give more concern than what I thought were the pertinent issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you very much.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEMENYA.

MR SEMENYA: I might indicate Chairperson, that our understanding is there has already been a questioning in terms of the closed hearings. The record of those questionings have become public knowledge now and it is in the possession of everybody including the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Hanif?

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop. Maybe I should just sort myself out, maybe we can just adjourn for a short while, I really thought this was going to run much longer. Is it possible to stand for about five, ten minutes Archbishop?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you say so. I think so. We will resume at ten o'clock.

MR VALLY: Ten o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Your five minutes is long. All right, ten o'clock.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Do you people understand English? Thank you, please settle. Thank you very much. Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, let me start off with the Mandela United Football Club. You acknowledge that the Mandela United Football Club wasn't just the soccer team which originally started, but also consisted of a number of young men who moved with the soccer team and moved generally with the people who visited your house regularly, in their tracksuits, in their uniforms accompanying you to funerals, marches, rallies, whatever. Do you acknowledge that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Do you acknowledge that the Mandela United Football Club was a source of controversy within Soweto?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That subsequently happened.

MR VALLY: When you say subsequently happened, can you tell us in which year?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I wouldn't remember the exact years. I think it is common knowledge.

MR VALLY: Do you remember which year that the soccer club originated, which year it was established?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think it could have been around 1985, 1986, I am not sure of the exact year.

MR VALLY: It was after you came back from Brandfort?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: When I returned from Brandfort.

MR VALLY: You advised us that the Club had been disbanded on instructions from your husband when you saw him in prison. Can you tell us a date?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Chairperson, can I tell you what?

MR VALLY: The date please?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Oh, I wouldn't remember the exact date, but I think it could have been 1986, 1987, around those years.

MR VALLY: Why I am asking is that subsequently your young men in uniform travelling with you, driven by Morgan, were seen at other venues, are you aware of that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was subsequently aware of the fact that they were using these uniforms.

MR VALLY: And travelling with you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, at times I did go along with them.

MR VALLY: So on what basis do you say that the Club was disbanded when you were still moving around with them?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: On what basis?

MR VALLY: Do you say the Club was disbanded?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The Club was disbanded Chairperson. The disbanding of the Club did not necessarily mean the withdrawal of the uniform. Regrettably I did not confiscate those uniforms after the Club was disbanded and that is just what happened.

MR VALLY: Were young people still staying in the back yard in the rooms?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They continued, some of them continued staying in the back yard. I wouldn't be able to state exactly which ones.

MR VALLY: Do you recall the Asvat funeral in February 1989?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I do.

MR VALLY: Do you recall that you arrived there in the what you called the bus, driven by John Morgan with a number of young men in uniform, tracksuits from the Mandela United Football Club logo emblazon there on?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct. And what ultimately happened in fact those were the only decent clothes those children had. I did not have resources to buy them clothes.

MR VALLY: So these were the young men who were still staying on your premises, who were still wearing the uniform, who were still moving around as a group and they still accompanied you to various occasions? Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Can you explain to us why in July 1988 instructions were given to Attorney Krish Naidoo to bring an urgent application to court regarding a football match which was supposed to have been played between Mandela United Football Club and the UDF trialists?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon, I don't know of that. I don't recollect what you are talking about.

MR VALLY: Do you recall there was a football match which had been arranged at the farm or the residence of the Harrisons, I believe it is, Miranda Harris and the film maker I believe he is, do you recall this? Roger Harris?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I honestly have no recollection of that.

MR VALLY: Because I have been advised that the counsel who was briefed in that manner, was Mr Dennis Kuny, instructed by Attorney Krish Naidoo. You were supposed to have played the UDF trialists team at the Delmas trialist team I should call it rather, would that help the matter, the Delmas trialist team?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR VALLY: Messrs Popu Molefe, Terror Lekota, Mosh Chikane.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: With hindsight that would have been very nice, I just don't recollect that Chairperson.

MR VALLY: You don't recollect at all that there was an application plan to court?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, honestly I don't recollect that at all.

MR VALLY: Well, that happened in July 1988. All right, so we've got the Club disbanded, but we've still got the youngsters staying in the house, still travelling in a group with you and still wearing the tracksuits as late as at least February 1989. How long did this state of affairs go on?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I wouldn't be able to put any exact date or calendar.

MR VALLY: At which stage did you become aware that the young people staying at your house were engaged in what some people called, thuggery?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: An incident occurred to my recollection when the Daliwonga students are supposed to have kidnapped two of the boys in the premises. But I subsequently learnt of that much, much later.

MR VALLY: You initially in your Section 29 inquiry advised us that you weren't aware of the origin of what was called the Mandela Crisis Committee? Do you still maintain that position?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, there may have been a misunderstanding on the particular wording. I tried to explain here that the leaders who came after the banning of the house, the leaders who came to Diepkloof were not coming there as the Crisis Committee, that is why we see the Rev Bangulas were not part of that Committee.

And what had happened thereafter was in fact that during that period, the Crisis Committee acquired another stature which was now supposed to be in conflict with the Mandela family.

And there was no Crisis Committee formed to deal with the problems of the Mandela family in that regard, in relation to the boys, in relation to the death of Stompie.

The Crisis Committee which was dubbed, a Crisis Committee by the media, was a group of those leaders, community leaders.

MR VALLY: We will come back to the Stompie issue. We are still busy now with the burning of the house in Orlando West. This happened in July 1988?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that may be correct.

MR VALLY: Did people come to you under the coordination of Rev Frank Chikane, we are talking specifically about the people you saw here, Mr Sydney Mufamadi, Mr Aubrey Makoena, Mr (indistinct) and Dominee Beyers Naude. Did they come and see you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You mean in Diepkloof?

MR VALLY: No, wherever you were staying after your house was burnt down?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, they came to see us in Diepkloof.

MR VALLY: Did they help you and assist you in rebuilding your house in Orlando West?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That process had started immediately after we left Orlando.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that they asked you, having investigated the matter and interviewed people from Daliwonga, to arrange for the boys not to live on your premises any longer?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I understand there were such efforts. I could not have a direct recollection of those events which happened at the time.

MR VALLY: Do you recall that they asked you to move the boys off the premises because of the activities that the boys were engaged in?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They requested us to remove the boys, there was no alternative accommodation to my recollection, which was arranged by Aubrey Makoena or Sydney, for that matter.

MR VALLY: Our advice is they were willing to find alternative arrangements, and one of the reasons that you refused, and this is what they stated here as well as in their written report, a copy of which we gave to your counsel, that one of the reasons that you refused to do that was that you felt you needed them for security purposes? In other words as a bodyguard?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, that was ridiculous Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: So what reason did you give them for refusing to remove them from your premises?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It wasn't an actual removal. They themselves did not state that they provided any alternative accommodation. That process in fact just fell along the way if I remember correctly.

There were no serious efforts to place these boys in any particular accommodation elsewhere.

MR VALLY: Can you tell me why Mr Nelson Mandela, in your visit to him at Pollsmoor, asked you I believe you said it was in 1987 if I am not mistaken, to disband the Club?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, he had heard the same rumours. He had heard the same perceptions I understood from him, and he was very concerned about what he was hearing, not from me, about the Club.

MR VALLY: So in effect when you say that the Club was disbanded, it wasn't disbanded?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was disbanded to my knowledge. What happened was that the boys continued to wear the uniforms.

MR VALLY: The same youngsters are staying there, you have told us the Club was more than just a Club of people playing soccer, they are still staying on your premises. In 1987 Mr Nelson Mandela asked you to disband the Club, you say you have disbanded the Club. In July 1988 because of the Club's activities, your house is burnt down. On what basis can you say that the Club was disbanded?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The Club which played matches was disbanded. That did not stop new youths coming in and out of the yard and no one could vouch that the same youths who are supposed to have done those things in 1988, were necessarily the same youths who were there in 1987.

The youths were in and out of my house.

MR VALLY: Did you have no control over your premises?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There was no need to control that. They led their own lives at the back and I had my own problems to deal with.

MR VALLY: I have just given you a reason why you had to control that, because your husband asked you to disband the Club, because of these allegations of thuggery around the Club and because from the thuggery it led to your house being attacked and burnt in 1988, in July.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No evidence has been brought here concretely stating that boy so and so who was staying at your house, raped such and such a girl on such and such a date, those were the perceptions we are dealing with and those were the perceptions we are still dealing with right now.

MR VALLY: Are you still maintaining Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that no evidence has been brought forward after all these days of hearings, that the boys who were associated with the Mandela United Football Club, the boys who were staying at the back of your premises, have not been engaging in criminal activities of whatever kind?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As you have correctly pointed out, who were associated. There isn't a single case here where a boy who was directly staying in my house, was involved in rapes and was involved in these type of evidence which was led here. If that had been the case, I would have acted.

MR VALLY: Let's start. Was Jerry Richardson, as the coach of the Football Club, staying on your premises after his house was attacked?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR VALLY: He is serving a life sentence for assault, murder, kidnapping and attempted murder?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Was Oupa Alex Seheri ever staying at your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, how could Oupa Seheri stay in my house? He was a trained cadre from Lusaka. He did not stay in my house.

MR VALLY: I see. Did he visit your house regularly?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He did visit the house and he was not seeing me directly, he was communicating with whoever he was using at the time. It did happen that cadres used some of the boys who were in the premises as their couriers.

MR VALLY: Was he coming to your premises?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was coming to the back rooms.

MR VALLY: If he was coming to the back rooms and your house was a police station, as you put it, wasn't he being totally irresponsible?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, their safety and security was entirely their matter. I did not have a mandate to look after their safety. If he was that careless to continue coming to that house, that was not my responsibility.

MR VALLY: But you advised us that you were engaged both in overt and covert activities for the ANC, that you were acting for the ANC and acting with MK? You in fact went so far as to say that you reported to Chris Hani, this is at the Section 29 inquiry?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Wasn't this irresponsible of you to allow a trained MK cadre to come in and out of your house, back rooms or wherever, wouldn't that have put you into danger?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Okay, can I repeat again. I did not hold myself responsible for the activities of the cadres, once I have done whatever job I was required to do of them.

And the fact that they were communicating with the boys at the back, was none of my concern.

MR VALLY: I see. You know of course that Oupa Seheri is in prison for murder?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon?

MR VALLY: That he is in prison for murder?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he is.

MR VALLY: You also know that the murder which he is supposed to have committed, that he came back to your house to collect a firearm?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I subsequently heard of that evidence here in fact. I didn't know these details until I think you mentioned it, something like that in the in camera hearing.

MR VALLY: Weren't you at the trial?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon?

MR VALLY: Were you not at the trial?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I did not attend the trial.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that John Morgan who you say was a neighbour who helped you and who said he was your driver, which evidence was also given at his trial, was found guilty of being an accessory to kidnapping?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Morgan appeared with me in that matter, the kidnapping matter.

MR VALLY: So you are aware of that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of Charles Bobo Zwane?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I knew him as Bobo.

MR VALLY: You confirmed the last time that he stayed on occasion at your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He did come in and out of my house. In fact he is very near, his home is very near my place.

MR VALLY: And he is serving a term of imprisonment for nine murders?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he is. He cried, he broke down and cried here and he said he knew nothing about the other murders. He knew something about the three murders.

MR VALLY: He also talked about a shebeen incident where a hand grenade was used because he got into a fight.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, Mr Chairman, that was during the days of the underground struggle. There is nothing peculiar about that.

MR VALLY: It is very peculiar when an MK weapon smuggled into a country like a hand grenade is thrown into a shebeen because of a bar brawl.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are not suggesting that had anything to do with me?

MR VALLY: I am telling you that the man used to stay at your house, which you have confirmed.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He did not stay in my house, he was in and out of my house and of course, he had stated here that he was not even a member of the Club. He did not play soccer.

MR VALLY: We have agreed on the outset, when we started off, that we are not talking simply about soccer rites, we were talking about a group of young men who hung around the back of your house, and who accompanied you on various occasions. That is what we are talking about?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are not suggesting for God's sake, that I would be responsible for the actions of those youths when they left my premises, went back to their homes, that I would be held responsible for that?

MR VALLY: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, you heard Mr Zwane himself say that he was sitting in Zinzi's bedroom, which I accept is the back room of your Orlando house, with a Scorpion machine pistol in his bag and Oupa Seheri arrived and gave him a crash course in using an AK47 and how they exchanged guns and when Oupa Seheri came back to fetch him, you heard all that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard all that.

MR VALLY: And he left with Oupa Seheri with two hand grenades, you heard that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The fact that they were that careless to do that, cannot possibly be attributed to me.

MR VALLY: But you were an MK operative and you allowed such irresponsible activity to take place in your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: How did I allow that Mr Chairman?

MR VALLY: That you did not take steps because people had been complaining to you from Mr Nelson Mandela himself to the Mandela Crisis Committee to a wake up call where you house is burnt, and you still let these youths live at the back of your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Where was the Crisis Committee complaining about a hand grenade held by Charles, long before the house was burnt down, what sort of logic is that?

MR VALLY: Let's not confuse issues.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, you are saying that the Crisis Committee was in existence before it actually existed. All those events occurred before the house was burnt down, so there was no Crisis Committee. You are confused.

MR VALLY: I am giving you ...

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. May I just warn you again that is conduct I will not tolerate. Let me just let you be aware of that that you have a perfect right to applaud if I give you the permission. But you are also perfectly free to do what you want to do outside of here, okay. Thank you very much.

MR VALLY: I am giving you, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I am clearly setting out a whole series of incidents. I am setting out a direct instruction from Mr Nelson Mandela, I am setting out wake up calls regarding the burning down of your house, I am setting out what the Mandela Crisis Committee advised you to do.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Thereafter yes.

MR VALLY: After your house was burnt down?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR VALLY: After all this, because Mandela Crisis Committee was formed, it was coming to you after July 1988, up to February 1989 you are still moving around with a group of young men staying at the back of the house, and you still tell me that you had no control over them?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I saw no reason whatsoever to do that at that stage, that was in fact based on the same perceptions, distortions which have brought us here.

MR VALLY: Are you saying that the complaints and the allegations and the very strong statements made about the actions of the Mandela United Football Club and the youth associated with them, are still just perceptions?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The period you are talking about, yes, they were.

MR VALLY: Today?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You can say that after the so-called kidnapping of the children, yes of course, there was a problem.

MR VALLY: I am talking about today. Do you see this as just perceptions or do you see it as having been a serious problem?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You were referring to those perceptions of that time?

MR VALLY: All right, I am talking about today?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Of course there were problems.

MR VALLY: Very serious problems?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, there were problems.

MR VALLY: Let me go on.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Lives were lost.

MR VALLY: We have talked about Charles Zwane being sentenced to imprisonment for nine murders. Do you remember Wilson Sibilwane?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Do I remember him?

MR VALLY: yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, of course I do.

MR VALLY: Was he one of the youths who used to come to your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was one of the youths who actually formed the Football Club.

MR VALLY: Do you know that he is serving a sentence for armed robbery?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He is not serving any sentence for armed robbery now, he is actually in the audience here. This is why I say let us get our facts straight.

MR VALLY: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, please don't play around. You know he has just got amnesty for that.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not playing around.

MR VALLY: Are you aware he got amnesty for that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: And I will not tolerate you speaking to me like that. I will not. I am trying to give you answers to the best of my ability.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me Mrs Madikizela-Mandela

I don't want to clear this place, but if you continue to do that, I will have no other option. I don't want you outside of here, but this hearing is going to be carried out conducted with dignity. And I am in charge here.

I don't want to use the powers that I have. If you do that again, I will have both of you sitting at the back there as I can see, and maybe innocent people involved, but I will clear that section. Please don't, I kept saying tempt me. I want you to remain here, I want you to be here. But this has to be carried, conducted in a dignified fashion as it has up to now. Do you understand that? Thank you.

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop. Are you telling me that you were not aware that Mr Sibilwane who has now got amnesty, was in prison for armed robbery?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I didn't say I wasn't aware. I thought you said at present he is serving a sentence for armed robbery, that is why I said he is in the audience here. He was serving a sentence, the details of which are not really known to me.

He could have been serving a sentence for robbery like many other hundreds of youths who are doing so.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that Absolom Badontsela is presently serving a 12 year sentence for armed robbery?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I understand he is in prison.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that he was one of the youths who was associated with or living at the back of your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am aware he was associated with the youth there.

MR VALLY: Now, I have set out a whole long list of youths who had been convicted of very serious criminal conduct. Do you not think that the advice you were given by Mr Nelson Mandela in 1987, by the Mandela Crisis Committee in 1988, and I would assume by other persons to disband the Mandela United Football Club which meant that the youths who were staying at the back of your house, should not be allowed to stay at the back of your house any longer? Why did you not take this advice?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did take the advice to disband the Club and that is my final answer Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: And when did you take this advice?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As I have stated, when I did return from prison and I told them to disband the Club. The fact that they continued wearing uniforms and continued with their kind of conduct which was alleged then, outside of my house, cannot be attributed to me.

MR VALLY: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, did you exercise no control at all over what happened in your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not have any direct control over those youths who came to seek refuge in my place.

MR VALLY: Mr Mandela, I believe advised you to disband the Club in April 1987. I want to read to you from the submission by the Mandela Crisis Committee. You must remember after Daliwonga students attacked your house, and burnt your house in July 1988. This is what theyíve said, and Iím referring to paragraph 19. The Committee insisted on removing what it called a bush, that was the Mandela Football Club, around the Mandela family within which agents of the party system were possibly operating. To this end, suggestions were made to shift members from the Football Club from the family to an alternative venue or commendation to alternative venue of commendation. These suggestions were made with a firm negative response from Club members and Mrs Mandela. Mrs Mandela insisted that she had responsibility to protect, as well as take care of them. She also insisted that the Football Club was important to her, since some of the members served as her Security personnel. Are you saying that what theyíve said in this submission is not true?

MRS MADIKIZELA MANDELA: That document was not compiled in consultation with me. There are lots of (indistinct) in that document. There was never a serious confrontation between the Crisis Committee and ourselves to the extent that there was a definite refusal.

What we did state at the time, was the boys were there and securing themselves. That is exaggerated distortion must be attributed to the people who drew that report.

MR VALLY: I would just remind you that they did state that you did sit right there where you were under oath, for very (indistinct) people, Mr Aubrey Makoena, Minister Sydney Mufamadi, Sister Bernard (indistinct) and at one stage Dr Beyers Naudé and Rev. Frank Chikane, where they presented this document to the Commission.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, you also did hear Sydney Mufamadi, denying the fact that in fact I had spoken to him. So the facts about that document was that it doesnít necessarily mean all the facts there were accurate. They refer to in fact the security problem. He knew at that stage, because (indistinct) was in fact an informer, and he did not convey that information. If he had conveyed that to me at that time, I probably would have acted as they stated.

MR VALLY: I just want to go back to the Seheri issue. The Seheri trial. I thought I heard you say that you were not at the trial. Did you say that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon.

MR VALLY: I thought I heard you say you did not attend the (indistinct) trial?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible, because Thembiso had a relationship with Zinzi. It is possible, we did go to see Thembiso at the trial.

MR VALLY: And thatís your only information.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not attend the trial in full. I just can recall going to Thembiso at the trial.

MR VALLY: I want to read to you a brief section from a report in THE STAR, September 6th, 1988, and itís got a photograph of yourself and Miss Zinzi Mandela-(indistinct) and this is what it says.

"This is Winnie Mandela and her daughter Zinzi Mandela outside the Rand Supreme Court where they attended a murder trial yesterday. Both were listed as State Witnesses, but when the State closed itís case last week, the Court heard it would not be necessary to call them, because of admissions made by the accused."

Can I show you this article and confirm that you were in fact there or not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, as I stated, I could have attended to see Thembiso as you also see here, if we were supposed to be listed as witnesses, we may have been advised. I donít recall what happened. We may have been advised not to attend.

MR VALLY: To attend you mean?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not to attend the trial. It was supposed to be State witnesses.

MR VALLY: Well, if you see the photographs, and you see what they say. Theyíre photographing you outside the Court, theyíre saying that you were listed as State witnesses, but would not be called before the admissions made by the accused. That is what they say.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: We were probably not called at the end of the trial, and thereís nothing sinister about that if I went with my daughter to see her boyfriend.

MR VALLY: Letís move on. Well, we discuss one last issue. Was this Thembiso Buthelezi, you advised us it was you daughterís boyfriend, who when the attack took place which lead to the murder charges in this matter, drove in your Audi. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela: Thembiso had access to my vehicle. He used to drive Zinzi around, he used to drive her to University, and thereís absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I do not see what Human Right was violated, because I gave Thembiso my car to drive my daughter, unless this is meant for public consumption.

MR VALLY: Itís very strange that you do not see a vehicle which was used in the murder of people, as being something of concern to you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: A matter of concern, because Thembiso drove my car. He drove my car, because he had access to my car, he was driving around the time, and he didnít have to come and ask for permission every time he needed to use it.

MR VALLY: Were you not worried that he used it to commit a murder?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I never suspected he would be involved in this. I could not have predicted actions of guerrillas.

MR VALLY: You call that an action of a guerrilla? What happened there?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Harry. Harry was.

MR VALLY: All right, letís move on.

Weíve previously talked to you about the Disciplinary Committee which allegedly was held on your premises. You denied any knowledge of that. In view of Mr Gift Nthombeniís evidence that he was witness to some of the methods used by the Disciplinary Committee including the cutting up of people, do you still maintain there was no Disciplinary Committee?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: To my knowledge, there was no Disciplinary Committee. I also heard in that context that he tried to incriminate my daughter. The letters ANC was no longer carved by me as had been stated in the media, they were now attributed to Zinzi who honoured those fabrications, which were meant for his gallery(?)

MR VALLY: Letís talk about the whole issue of MK.

Youíve told us before, and you tell us again now that the MK members, because you house was "like a police station", were not staying at your house. Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Yet they would come regularly?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not monitor their movements. They came in and out to see the boys. They did not come to see me.

MR VALLY: Even though it was a danger to your own operation?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, if I was aware, I would have taken precautions about MK Soldiers coming there.

MR VALLY: Did you know Oupa Seheri?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I knew of Oupa Seheri.

MR VALLY: Were you aware he was coming to your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: But I have responded to that question.

MR VALLY: You said he was coming to your house? Why didnít you take precautions regarding him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: When he came. On that one occasion when he came to me, and that is how Thembiso must have known him. He came that once to me.

MR VALLY: Do you know Sonwabo?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes I do.

MR VALLY: Was he trained MK Guerrilla?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he was.

MR VALLY: Did he come to your house regularly?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, he didnít come to my house regularly. He did contact me when it was necessary for him to contact me.

MR VALLY: Did he come to your house on occasion?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not on occasion, but he communicated with me when it was necessary for him to do so.

MR VALLY: Did he come to the back of your house that you were aware of?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I certainly (indistinct) heard during these proceedings that he was coming to the back rooms.

MR VALLY: I asked you previously, whether you know Vuyisile, also known as Ntshoshobo. In your evidence today, I believe you said you knew him as (indistinct). Also known as "V"?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, comrade "V".

MR VALLY: Was he a trained MK (indistinct)

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes he was.

MR VALLY: Was he coming to your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He did contact me when it was necessary for him to do so.

MR VALLY: When you say contact?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I mean visit me openly, and he come publicly to see me, but we had a way of communication.

MR VALLY: Would he sneak to your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not at all.

MR VALLY: To your backrooms?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not at all.

MR VALLY: You have been given the statement made by Absolom Dumisale (indistinct), who was a secretary of the Football Club, have you not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, thatís correct.

MR VALLY: Iíll read you paragraph 5, and if you want to see it, Iíll show it to you.

"Between January and April 1987, I was still General Secretary, but I was MK instructions. My direct commander was (indistinct). Early in 1987 an incident occurred which lead to a raid at the Mandela house in Orlando West. During the raid, the Police found a Scorpion machine pistol in the green suitcase in the house of Zinzi Mandela. Zinzi was arrested, and subsequently found out later that the weapon was placed there by (indistinct).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I recall the incident.

MR VALLY: Well clearly, the Secretary of the Football Club had quite close contact with another trained MK (indistinct).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible, they didnít have to get permission from me.

MR VALLY: Is this (indistinct) the same person that we were talking about here the other day, whether weíre talking about the intimidation about witnesses?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I donít understand the question Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: Do you recall? We had an issue where we raised the issue about the intimidation of witnesses.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR VALLY: And the name (indistinct) came up?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I recall that yes.

MR VALLY: Is this the same (indistinct)?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is the same person.

MR VALLY: So this is one of the people, in terms of what Absolom says, let a weapon in Zinziís room.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I donít really know what does that have to do with me. I donít know what kind of answer you are soliciting if that is the evidence before you, then you need to tell me precisely what human rights I have violated by having that knowledge.

MR VALLY: Letís go on. Sibusiso Sithole is the father of one of your grandchildren. Was he a trained MK cadre?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, he was internally trained.

MR VALLY: But he was an MK (indistinct)?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he was.

MR VALLY: And he was trained?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was one of those who were internally trained.

MR VALLY: And he was staying at your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was staying at my house before the death of Tholi.

MR VALLY: You see, I put it to you Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, that in your section 29 Inquiry, you advised us that you didnít keep a control of who came into your house and who didnít come. At the same time, you were engaged in other MK activities. Iíve given you a list of people who you confirmed were MK (indistinct), trained as MK (indistinct) whether internally or externally. That as an MK operative, you behaved in a very irresponsible way by not exercising proper, and delegate control over your premises.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I used to hear that kind of (indistinct) from the Security branch.

MR VALLY: Letís go on.

Mr Morgan has testified that he was given armed training at your premises.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was given?

MR VALLY: Training in usage of arms.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Morgan?

MR VALLY: Thatís right.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I thought that was (indistinct). He has always been the character who presented and said thatís easy. Why would anyone give him training at that age, Mr Morgan is an old man, and there was a house with teenagers, youth, who would give that old man training, and what for?

MR VALLY: Mr Jabu Javis Sithole said he was given a crash course in usage of an AK 47 in your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, they didnít have to come via me. I donít know where he got his training from.

MR VALLY: Letís go on.

Letís go to the issue of alleged informers. Thereís a common thread regarding a number of people we were told were accused of being informers. And then I will deal with the exceptions, and then weíll discuss that. We have had evidence that Kuki Zwane was accused of being an informer. Her body has been found. We have had evidence that Lolo Sono was accused of being an informer. He has disappeared, he has yet to be found. We will come back to the Lolo Sono case.

We have had evidence that Sibuniso Shabalala was accused of being an informer. His whereabouts are still not known, or his body is yet to be found.

We have evidence that Stompie Seipei was accused of having been an informer. His body has been found.

All these people at some time had links to your house. We have had evidence that Tholi Dlamini who was shot dead by Sizwe Sithole, and he was linked to the Football Club.

We have had evidence that (indistinct) was accused of being an informer, and some very serious attempts have been made on his life.

Is it mere coincidence that all these people linked to either your residence, or to the Mandela Football Club, facing these accusations, either have disappeared, or have had serious attempts on their lives, or in fact, were killed?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Ja, (indistinct) in their character, you could hear to give you that testimony about all those people who supposedly have been branded informers. You know Richardson (indistinct). He is the source of that information. You arenít seriously asking me to account for Richardsonís irresponsible testimony here.

MR VALLY: Letís talk about two people who were accused at some point of being informers and would not get killed. Letís talk about Jerry Richardson.

Do you recall me asking you a question in your section 29 Inquiry where I put to you that Jerry Richardson, in whose house were two MK Guerrillas, placed there by you, his house is attacked by police, they are killed, as well as Serg. Pretorius, a policeman. He is detained from the 9th of November 1988, released on the 25th of November, 1988, and I put it to you - "Were you not suspicious of him?" Do you recall that question?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do recall that question, and if I had had the opportunity of (indistinct) the material you had at your disposal, I might have dealt with it properly. I do recall you asking that question, and to me it sounded very strange at the time. I didnít know what you were basing it on? You would have that information that you had.

MR VALLY: Well, let me just tell you what I told you. I asked you if you had made (indistinct) as you (indistinct). Did you institute any enquiry to how it came about that they were shot in that particular manner, your response was:

"Unless youíre not a South African. If you lived during those apartheid times, thatís the last question you would ask of me. Firstly, I was not even known to have been directly connected with those (indistinct)

Ms Sooka continues: Yes, but I think the question Iím asking you is: Did you of your own institute any enquiry into what had actually happened.

Your response: Are you not South African?

The Chairperson: That was Mr Ntsebeza. (indistinct) for instance, Ms Sooka repeats that. Your response: How could I make enquiries about (indistinct)?

Ms Sooka: Did you question Jerry Richardson about it?

Your response: There was nothing to question Jerry Richardson about save to say that he was one of the victims. We assume he was one of the victims and it was very unfortunate that the police discovered that I have placed some people there like hundreds of other victims."

Yet we know, that for a long time there had been newspaper articles suggesting that Mr Jerry Richardson was a police informer.

A few months ago in this year, there was a long article in the Guardian and Weekly Mail even talking about the amount of money you were alleged to have been paid, but at the Section 29 Inquiry, that was your response.

MR SEMENYA : Mr Chairman, in all fairness, this question has been asked of the witness in the Section 29, whether or not she instituted enquiries in 1987 or 1988. And my (indistinct), and my colleague is not saying based on the allegations of which have been made in 1997, she should have answered it differently, that of Jerry Richardson as an informer. I donít understand that. I think thatís an unfair question.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you may be able to explain.

MR VALLY: The question in the context when it was first asked, was a man who is harbouring trained MK guerrillas in those times, in 1988, as two of them are killed in his house, fully armed, a Security branch policeman is killed in his house, is in detention from the 9th of November 1988, to the 25th of November 1988, and the question for Mrs Madikizela-Mandela as an MK operative, as a very active political figure in her own right, were you not suspicious, did you not ask him any questions?

And Iíve already read responses to you.

What Iím putting to you, was in view of the fact that all the other people, who were in some point accused of being informers, and we know what happened to them.

Regarding Mr Jerry Richardson, against whom allegations were there, prior to section 29 Inquiry, prior to me posing the question, yet, your response was : "He was one of the victims."

How do you explain that to us?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I donít understand your long, long, long question, and what I can say to you it upset me, to have gone to asked Richardson in prison, because all this subsequent information is when he is already in prison. That I should have confronted him then with information I did not have and to tell you that honest fact of God, I believed only when he confessed, yes, that he was informer.

I thought it part of the (indistinct) exercise, this mud slinging exercise, coming via this forum through the leaking of (indistinct) which was to be served on me. Which contained allegations of this sort, and when I saw those allegations about him, I did not believe them. I only believed when the man confessed here. That is the confidence I had had in Richardson. I wouldnít have placed (indistinct) at his place if I had the slightest shadow of doubt that he wasnít a (indistinct).

MR VALLY: I asked you a very specific question, and as a trained political activist, and someone who was an underground operative, I ask you a question page, 119, of the first Section 29 Inquiry.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What is the question?

MR VALLY: Is it not strange that Mr Jerry Richardson was detained for a very short period, not even prosecuted when two armed ANC cadres are killed in his house and a policeman is killed in an attack in his house. And then when Mr Semenya intervened.

Mr Semenya said: " That question must be asked to the police who have the right to detain longer or have the right to prosecute. It can not be the problems of prior to know whether it is strange or not strange".

My response was: "Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has got many years experience of dealing with Security forces. Mr Semenya intervened again.

"Are we being called as an expert here Mr Chairman?"

I went on.

" I was asking her with her experience of regular harassment by police, as she has indicated to us, that did she not find this strange, I want her opinion thatís all".

The chairperson rule - "I think it is a legitimate question."

Mr Semenya intervenes again. "No, Mr Chairman, with respect, we will refuse to answer that question". And he justifies it by saying that it was opinion evidence I was asking for.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: And Iím sure, it still holds the same truth.

MR VALLY: Letís talk about another informer. Letís talk about Mr Mbatha. Also known as Themba.

In terms of the cross examining of (indistinct).

You put to him that this Askari had returned and he was supplying information to you regarding Vlakplaas. It this correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, itís correct.

MR VALLY: Was this information conveyed to the ANC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was to be conveyed to the ANC through him, but it did not reach the (indistinct).

MR VALLY: So it is the same person that youíd been sending to the ANC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did he have another mission, which was to go outside the country, and contact the Press, and advise them that Stompie Seipei was in Botswana?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I could only assume that the reason why he was blown to pieces was that he knew that that was if publication, and he yet I see it in his statement.

MR VALLY: Weíve given you copies of the statements we obtained from the police in this regard.

I must say right upfront immediately, that these were statements obtained while you were under Section 29, and I certainly would not rely on any statements in terms of Section 29. I accept that.

Thereís a statement from the police at the time that he was detained, that certain documents were found in his possession, which had notes and phone numbers of various newspapers. SAPA Reuters News Agencies, Star City Press, Sowetan.

It also has a statement. Stompie Seipei was brought to me by undisclosed (indistinct) from Mama. I donít know if Mam is Mamelodi, or someone a person. As he is now in (indistinct)and it goes on.....

I want to show you copies of this, and you tell me if the handwriting is yours, or whether you recognised this writing.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I wish we were privileged enough to have some of this documentation.

MR VALLY: With respect, documents have been given to Mr Semenya. We gave Mr Semenya the documents when we received them from the police, which was very recently.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Mr Chairman, I am sure you do know that that is not my handwriting, and I donít know what the purpose of asking that question, is.

MR VALLY: Iíll tell you right now.

Iíll show you two articles. Sowetan, 22nd February, 1989, an article on the front page, written by Mr Joshua (indistinct) and Mr Themba Molise.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it may be convenient for you to take tea? I think letís have a 15 minute tea break, that the other thing was not tea, and then we return by quarter past eleven. ...be longer than the usual tea break.(indistinct)

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please settle? We thought you have (indistinct) Hanif. I thought you have absconded. I just want to make an announcement. It is alleged that some people wearing the uniform of the ANC Womenís league, and there is an independent witness to this, harassed Mrs Seipei when she went to the ladies room. May I just say that it is reprehensible conduct which I condemn in the strongest possible terms. It is disgraceful. But apart from being disgraceful, it is a criminal offence, and if I should have evidence of the people who have done that, we will lay charges against it, because it is intimidation and Iíve spoken about intimidation earlier in this hearing. If it is true, you are not whoever you may be, furthering the cause of your Womenís League. I have appealed to all of us, that this hearing should be carried out with dignity. People who may be disagreeing, and may be on all sorts of sides, but one of the things about a new dispensation on all of our democratic and constitutional rights is, is that we have, all of us, points of view which have to be respected. But I will not permit someone who has been invited by the TRC to be subjected to the kind of behaviour that I believe these two ladies are alleged to have engaged in.

I donít want to keep making these interventions, but I believe that what was reported to me, has been investigated by Dr Randera and he confirmed that that is the case.

I donít want such things to characterise this hearing. It is already an emotional and difficult hearing as it is, and we mustnít (indistinct) pains. I appeal please, donít do it. Just actually even in terms of ordinary humanity, that mother has lost a child that was killed gruesomely. It is disgraceful for people who claim to be mothers to subject her to the kind of treatment that I learn Mrs Seipei was subjected to. I hope I wonít need to intervene again. Hanif.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Mr Chairman, I think that this is a very grave allegation. We, as Womenís League, regret that very much, and we would request that we be given details of that information. We cannot believe that any mother, let alone members of the Womenís League, would be involved in that kind of conduct. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Hanif, are you ready?

MR VALLY: Thank you chairperson.

Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, we were talking about the person referred to as Themba, and also known as Johannes Mbatha. You confirm that he was an Askari. Askari in absolute clarity, he was as a guerrilla who had been turned and was working for the police and you informed us that you had turned him again. I donít know what other phrase to use. He was an Askari who has given you information about Vlakplaas, and you were standing in to carry through the information to the ANC.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: May I just correct it there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs, what I wanted to suggest - you donít have to - itís very sensitive and you are a very able public speaker, so no you donít (indistinct)

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Your question was?

MR VALLY: Iíll repeat it.

Johannes Mbatha, also called Themba, weíve heard evidence by Mr (indistinct) He was an Askari.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA : I think you actually said that we turned him, and you didnít know the right word.

We didnít turn him, he came on his own from Vlakplaas, and he wanted to confess to the ANC about the activities in Vlakplaas.

MR VALLY: When did this happen. When did he come to you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I donít remember the exact dates Mr Chairman, it was round about that time.

MR VALLY: You were sending him to Lusaka, to the ANC to report?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He actually came to request that we must facilitate his route back to Lusaka.

MR VALLY: And was he staying at your house for a few months before that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, Mr Chairman, how could a person from Vlakplaas come and stay in my house, an Askari for that matter?

MR VALLY: Weíve heard evidence of Mrs Nkadimeng that he was still remaining within the country, that she stayed at your house for at least, nearby your house, and she spent time with you for at least a month when she saw Themba at your house.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, that is ridiculous, Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: So youíre saying he stayed?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He did not stay in my house, but I did see him quite frequently when he wanted us to facilitate his route back to Lusaka.

MR VALLY: Did he visit your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that way he contacted me. I didnít know him.

MR VALLY: Fine, and you facilitated his route back to Lusaka?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR VALLY: I want to show you the Sowetan of the 22nd of February 1989, and the City Press article. I believe it is the 24th of February, 1989. The reason I say I believe it is, because unfortunately there was no date stamped on it, but he talks about the funeral of Stompie Seipei the next day. This has been given to your attorney, and I Ďll be giving you a copy of this as well. Iím afraid, this is not so good, so I will give you mine after Iíve read it if you canít read this one.

Sowetan, February, 2nd, 1989. Iím looking at just before the section which says (indistinct).

"The Sowetan has received four calls in two days from a man who gave his name as Johannes Magothca, claiming that Stompie was alive, and staying at the Dukwe Refugee Camp."

Thatís from the Sowetan.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I honestly havenít the slightest idea what the connection was between our (indistinct) and Stompie. Mine was to facilitate his route back to Lusaka.

MR VALLY: Fine. City Press, 24th February, 1989. Iím reading the third paragraph down.

"The mystery of Stompieís death, and ...(inaudible) early this week, when a caller to City Press claimed that the teenage activist was in Botswanaís Dukwe Refugee Camp. He gave his name as Johannes Mbatha."

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I see that Mr Chairman, Mr Vally I donít have any idea of what this is all about.

MRS VALLY: Letís move on. Since weíve started with the matter of Stompie Seipeiís death, I just need some answers from you on this issue. At the section 29 Inquiry, you mentioned that you have been contacted by a Mr Shabalala, who advised you that between the time that Stompie was at your house, and Stompie was found dead, he had been seen at the Protea Police station.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I had been given that information Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: I then asked you, and Iíve followed it up with two letters to your attorneys, requesting you as to how to get hold of Mr Shabalala. I had no response from your attorneys on this issue.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I can imagine, they had problems in tracing her. But the information is still at my disposal as where you can look for her if you want to find her. You can still try and establish where she is.

MR VALLY: I had no response from your attorneys, and if you can give me a response, it would be useful. However, the issue is this, this is a new allegation that Stompie was last seen at Protea Police Station before his body was found. You have previously told a journalist, Mr Serfontein, that Mr John Morgan has seen the body of Mr Stompie Seipei and said it was not the body of Stompie Seipei.

You remember that allegation?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct. I believed at that stage that it was not the body of Stompie, and this was information obtained from Morgan.

MR VALLY: Mr Morgan, as you heard denied that.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I mean, what I did not touch any important information - solicit that from Morgan personally.

MR VALLY: Youíve said at your maiden speech in Parliament, I can quote that exact thing by paraphrase. If you want me to quote it, I will quote it. One of your deepest regrets is that you failed Stompie in that, he was taken from your house and killed.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR VALLY: I need to know from you, regarding Stompie Seipei. I just want to know. Do you acknowledge, number one: that the body who was found and identified by his mother, and buried (indistinct) was that of Stompie Seipei?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, of course, that was never in dispute Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: Thank you. Do you acknowledge that he was last seen at your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is true. From the evidence, I subsequently, it was subsequently learnt.

MR VALLY: So the story of a Mrs Shabalala seeing him at the police station, is there any basis to it?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I said before that "in camera" hearing that you were free to establish the validity of that information, and the fact that you have not been able to ask about that information, is not my fault. I conveyed the information as much a possible.

MR VALLY: You see, Iíll just tell you quickly what he said, because you had knowledge that he was last seen alive at your house, but what you did say in your speech made in Parliament that Stompie Seipei was taken from your house and killed. You regret you failed him in that respect.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is true.

MR VALLY: And I asked by whom he was taken away? And you say- Good God, how on earth would I have known that Mr Chairman?"

I asked whether you knew he was taken away, you said -

"Yes, that has been in the Court record. We have faced trial, Richardson had been on trial, he had been taken away from my house, and we have stated to you that we now have new evidence, that in fact, we can (indistinct) from the manse, and from the house, he was seen at Protea Police Station."

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR VALLY: And I asked you how she knew who Stompie was, and your response was, you would have to get that information from her.

My follow up was: "How did the information come to you?"

And you said - "She mentioned that to me".

My question was: "Did she contact you out of her own free will?"

and you said - "Yes."

And I asked you: "Can you give us the period when you got this information?"

and I said - "that information from Mrs Shabalala".

and you said: "Long before I got the actual (indistinct)

actual (indistinct)."

Ií m sorry, Iím leaving out some words here.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, thereís nothing in dispute (indistinct). I did say that, and I will (indistinct) attempt to find Mrs Shabalala for you.

MR VALLY: This is a very important piece of information. The issue of Stompieís death has caused a major impact on your life.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not aware that you have not had any response, because we tried to contact her. But I will give you the telephone number at my disposal. You are free to contact Mrs Shabalala yourself.

MR VALLY: Al right. Letís move on from there.

You have heard evidence in this Court from Mr Thabiso Mono.

CHAIRPERSON: Which Court?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Ja, here at Court?

MR VALLY: Well, youíve heard evidence at Court, and at this hearing, from Mr Thabiso Mono and also from Mr Pelo Mekgwe, a witness who you specifically requested us to find for you wherein their status, that they were taken from the manse, brought to your residence, assaulted both by you and the other people in your presence. What is your response to those allegations, especially the ones from Mekgwe, who you specifically asked us to bring to this hearing?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Do you really think I would bring Mekgwe here for him to testify against me? I brought Mekgwe to your attention because I believed he knows the truth, which truth he tried to attempt to state here, because he knew he was never assaulted by me.

MR VALLY: So Mekgwe testified that he was in fact assaulted by you, he was talking the truth?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was not talking the truth.

MR VALLY: Weíve had a number of witnesses here, in gruesome graphic detail, weíve had Jerry Richardson laying out how Stompie Seipei was assaulted, as well as other young men.

Weíve also had evidence from, as I mentioned, Thabiso Mono, Iíve mentioned Mr Mekgwe. Are you saying John Morgan also mentioned it, Xoliswa Falati also mentioned it, and we also of course know about the allegations in Mr Cebekhuluís book.

So do specifically Mr Mekgwe and Mr Mono, are you maintaining that they are lying?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In that regard, yes, I do.

MR VALLY: Were they talking the truth when they said they were kidnapped from the manse against their will?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not believe that they were kidnapped. I still hold that view that according to my information, I was told that they got into the bus voluntarily.

MR VALLY: Were you part of the plan to remove them from the manse?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA : Why on earth would I go and remove boys I did not know, and I havenít the slightest idea that they stayed at the manse?

MR VALLY: I want to quote to you from your speech you made in Parliament, and Iím referring to your maiden speech. This is the same speech where you said you (indistinct) that you failed Stompie Seipei. I donít know if you want a copy of it?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No.

MR VALLY: Okay. When your report was made to me that they were youths who were sexually abused, I unhesitatingly fell in with the plans to rescue them and gave them refuge in my house.

My question is, were you part of the plans to remove them from the manse?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I was not.

MR VALLY: So this quote that I read of your maiden speech: "I unhesitatingly fell in with the plans to rescue them and gave them refuge in my house." Why did you say that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In that context I must have meant to rescuing them from my house and giving them over to Dr Motlana.

MR VALLY: Alright.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Which is what theyíve asked me to do.

MR VALLY: Okay. We went at (indistinct) through a Press statement that youíve made during our Section 29 Inquiry, where in bold capitals you had the phrase "STOMPIE SEIPEI WAS NOT AN INFORMER."

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I still believe that Stompie was not an informer, and cannot believe that a man old enough to be his father would kill a child because he is alleged to be an informer. There must be another reason why Richardson killed that child.

MR VALLY: Okay.

You also have testimony from Katiza Cebekhulu that his allegations against Rev. Verryn were false. You have heard evidence from Thabiso Mono and from Pelo Mekgwe that there were no homosexual relationships with Rev. Verryn. At the criminal trial, (indistinct) said the same thing. Do you accept now that none of these boys were in any way involved sexually with Rev. Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It must be stated quite clearly, yes, that I did not know (indistinct). I hadnít the slightest idea that he would be accused of such (indistinct) allegations, and would never ever have simply just gone out of my way to smear Rev Verryn. I have stated yes, that I have no problem whatsoever with two (indistinct) adults entering into those relationship. Iíve got nothing to do with that type of private life. Information is given to me by Falati that children are being abused. I didnít even have the slightest idea of their ages. (indistinct) the one boy she has brought to me, Katiza. I do accept the evidence that has been previously presented here that none of that boys were abused by (indistinct). It wasnít as if I went out of my way to destroy (indistinct). Why would I do that?

MR VALLY: I just have one follow-up question to that.

Your interview with a person in February 1989, with NBC News, this after Stompieís body was found but not identified, this was after the other three youths, the first youth, (Indistinct) said he escaped, the other two youths were released into the custody of the Methodist Church, and after they had gone public at a meeting in Soweto saying those allegations were false. This is an interview given by you on the 1st of February, 1989. Iíll read from the question.

"NBC: Why didnít people like Desmond Tutu then take ...(indistinct) at you through the Football Team saying it should be banned?

Mrs Mandela: Iím quite surprised at him, because heís well aware of the situation back home, I understand he made that statement overseas. Surely Desmond Tutu knows that I have no bodyguards, I do not need to be protected from my people. Such reference to those youths was ..... over from the (indistinct) and can only be mischievous. That tragic situation that has arisen is the question of Rev. Paul Verryn. This Rev. Paul Verryn unfortunately, I thought had a medical problem that needed to be addressed by responsible leaders.

The report was brought to my attention, not when this youth got into this house, about October of last year, when I came about this problem Paul Verryn had with the children who were in his care.

Paul Verryn has a very serious psychological problem. I do not understand why a man of his calibre and a Christian would continue sodomising black children.

There is clear evidence here that Rev. Paul Verryn has ...(inaudible) the victims to a medical problem which he should have addressed quietly with his doctors."

Now this was at a stage when youth who had been abducted already publicly stated that they were not in any way involved in any sexual activity, yet you repeated this statement. Could you advise us why?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: On my departure, Mr Chairman, that information had not been tested. That was my firm belief. They gained the information from the (indistinct) and I had no reason whatsoever to not believe her at that stage.

MR VALLY: You were willing to repeat this statement on national television in America when you have the actual alleged victims denying it happened based on allegations brought to you by Mrs Falati?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I repeat, that that information on my side has not been tested. I have that view that children who went to seek refuge at the manse, were abused. That was the belief I had.

MR VALLY: Let us move on to - you have told us that you denied taking part in any assault on the youngsters. That you do not know why the people made allegations, are lying.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I have stated that.

MR VALLY: That you did not assault any of the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I didnít.

MR VALLY: You took Katiza Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat.

Now the medical record,. I donít know whether youíre aware of it. Weíve showed it to you previously, and I can show you another copy now.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Is that the card?

MR VALLY: Thatís correct. It has a stamp.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I have seen that. I didnít see a report, I just saw the card.

MR VALLY: The card Iím referring to. It has the 30th December, 1988, stamped on it.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You know on the question of date, I really wouldnít be absolutely certain. It was within those days, between the 29th and 30th.

MR VALLY: It possibly was the 30th.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I really couldnít confirm that, because the 30th - to my recollection, I think that was the 29th.

MR VALLY: But the stamp says the 30th.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I noted the stamp says the 30th. I would be in no position to give an explanation for that.

MR VALLY: You wouldnít dispute that (indistinct)

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I wouldnít, because I understand my memory to be the date of the 29th.

MR VALLY: Fine.

Letís move on. I try to move on chronologically.

Did you ever see Dr Asvat again in January of before his death?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I donít remember seeing him again.

MR VALLY: Youíve told us that you deny the allegations of Mr Mbatha and Mr Dlamini.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Theyíre (indistinct) of course.

MR VALLY: You also denied having any argument or row with Dr Asvat?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I could never had any argument with Dr Asvat.

MR VALLY: I want to go on to the issue of Mr Lolo Solo, and Mr Sibuniso Shabalala.

You have heard the evidence of Mr Sono, senior, the father of Lolo Sono?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes I did hear.

MR VALLY: And youíve also heard the evidence of Mr Shabalala?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now, Mr Sono maintains his version that you came with an injured - with his face having been injured, swollen, etc. Youíve heard those details?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard him give evidence.

MR VALLY: You advised us in the Section 29 Inquiry, and you repeated it when your counsellor was leading you that you took Lolo Sono to his cousin, who was an MK Guerrilla staying at Jerry Richardsonís house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR VALLY: And thatís where you last saw him.

Now, if that was true, Mr Sono says that the abduction as he calls it, took place on the 30th of November, 1988, he started laying charges on the 14th of November, 1988. The attack on the house of Jerry Richardson in which (indistinct) and Sipo, the MK guerrillas were killed, in fact took place on the 9th of November, 1988. Four days earlier? How do you explain this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Now actually when it comes to the (indistinct) about the days, Iím really unable to help you. All I know is, that the last contact I had with Lolo was when I brought him in the vicinity of Richardsonís house. When the (indistinct) were killed, and when he was dropped, I wouldnít have that type of memory to remember the exact date.

MR VALLY: So if thereís a police docket which indicates that a charged was laid on the 14th of November 1988, allegedly for an incident which took place on the 30th of November, 1988, then he couldnít possibly, if these facts are correct, that he couldnít possibly been have been taken to Jerry Richardsonís house, because at this stage, Jerry Richardson was in detention. He was in detention the night of November 1988, that should be 5th of November 1988, and the two MK Guerrillas, Seboko and Sipo, had been killed by this stage.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I really cannot help you in this regard. My last contact with Lolo was when I dropped him in that vicinity of Jerry Richardsonís house.

MR VALLY: I want to refer you to the second Section 29 Inquiry., page 16 onwards. You advise us there in that Lolo Sono was your courier and was, had in fact been introduced to you by Seboko himself.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR VALLY: I go on to page 17 to ask you a question. Have you ever made an attempt, any attempt to find out what has happened to Lolo Sono?

And your response was: "I have no reason to find out why, what happened to Lolo. Why would I have been concerned to find out what happened to Lolo?"

My response was: "Surely you are aware of statements being made in the Press and in Parliament and statements made before the Human Rights Violation Committee by Mr Sono and by Mrs Sono regarding this?"

You went on. "I saw the statements in the media, Mr Chairman, and if I followed up all the things that get said about one in the media, I do not think I would have been normal to this day.

Why should I have run around looking for Lolo? In the first place, Iíd not even know whether he had really disappeared or what had happened to him? All sorts of things get said about me".

My response was: "But he was a Courier you trusted implicitly. Surely, you would have been concerned as to what happened to such a Courier?"

There was an intervention by Mr Semenya, where he complained about the process, Iíll by-pass that and go on to page 19 where I go on.

Very specifically, Iím trying to find out whether according to this young man, Mrs Sono, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was the last person they saw her with in a group of other youngsters, and if she follows up this issue of his disappearance. Then I go on.

"The issue of Lolo Sono had not gone away for eight years. It is now eight years since he allegedly disappeared. You have advised us that Mr Sono has come to your house a number of times and I talk about Mr Sono, and I asked you the question. "Why did he come to your house?"

And you say he came to your house to bring you ammunition.

Further down, I ask you a question. "Have you ever been curious about what happened to Mr Lolo Sono in any way?" Weíre now on page 20, and your response was -

"I could not have been curious about what happened to people those days. It was not my area of concern, and in the first place during those days, how on earth would I have gone out of my way to look for information about Lolo Sono?

And I think my attorney explained in the last session, we had that our information from Mr (indistinct) is that you actually have statements made by the people who knew what happened to Lolo Sono.

Well, the only statement we have got regarding Mr Lolo Sono, is Mr Jerry Richardsonís amnesty application. Where he says that he killed Sibuniso Shabalala, and Lolo Sono on your instructions.

Have you at any stage made enquiries as to what happened to Lolo Sono. You were a MK operative. One of your trusted couriers disappears, two MK Guerrillas get killed. Do you want to in any way revise the answer you gave us previously at a Section 29 Inquiry?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In those days Mr Chairman, I wouldnít have been in a position to go and make enquiries about a courier. In the first place I didnít know that they had been killed with this other Shabalala boy. And when I saw the Press reports, they stood to be confirmed, as they have been confirmed in this forum. I hadnít the slightest idea that they had died. I personally would have suspected they must have gone to Lusaka. I didnít know the information I now have. So there is nothing to revise, because I held to that view at the time.

MR VALLY: There was a statement taken by Mrs (indistinct), or rather by Mr (indistinct). There was a statement taken from Mr (indistinct) weíve heard stories about how those stories theyíve saved Mr (indistinct). But theyíve said under oath that that version given by Mr Siyakamela, who was allegedly the driver of the vehicle that brought Lolo Sono to his fatherís house on the 30th of November going to Mrs Sono. And then Mr (indistinct) and (indistinct) advised us that Mrs (indistinct) version fits in with Nicodemus Sonoís version.

Furthermore, we have notes from the AG, Mr van Vuurenís notes which she has given to (indistinct) taken in 1991, which also corroborate the facts taken from Mr Michael Siyakamela. We have given evidence in this hearing. Weíve put Mr Pigou and a journalist, Mr Shilling, on the witness stand. We repeated a version to them, which corroborated Mr Nicodemus Sonoís version. Weíve explained to you why we havenít got hold of Mrs Shabalala, we are still trying, but havenít been successful thus far. In view of this further evidence, do you still maintain Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that you did not take him to his fatherís house whilst he was injured, swollen, shivering, scared? That his father begged you to leave him there? That in fact you merely went to fetch him from his fatherís house, and dropped him off at Jerry Richardsonís house? Is that still your position?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Even your logic defies me. If I had this band of boys who were killing so-called informers, what would have been the logic of me taking a badly injured Lolo to his father to show his father that Lolo is badly injured, and then take him away on the basis that heís an informer, knowing that he is going to disappear? Your logic surprises me. There is no such an event, there is no such incident.

MR VALLY: I think (indistinct)

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Why would I take him to his father to show him that hereís a boy thatís been beaten up, and that heís an informer? When he said that I was supposed to.... in killing informers? Why would I be doing that?

MR VALLY: The explanation given by Mr Sono was that possibly Lolo has stated something or requested to fetch something, which was relevant to whoever was bringing him there in order to enable the people who were with him to bring him to his fatherís house so that his father could try and rescue him.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There must be ...(indistinct) as far as Iím concerned. They would have just gone to collect or something (indistinct) he said yes. Why would he go and show his father that he (indistinct) injured. It doesnít make any sense.

MR VALLY: Well, the suggestion made by Katiza Cebekhulu was that Lolo Sono said he had certain documents which could possibly have implicated him and thatís why he had been brought to his house.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I honestly hope even you do not believe in the lunatic statement that has been made by Cebekhulu. I really hope so.

MR VALLY: Well, we have Nicodemus Sonoís version. We have reports of Mr Siyakamelaís version, we have what Mr Katiza Cebukhulu said, we have Mr (indistinct) what Mr (indistinct) told him, and we have what Mr van Vuuren I believe, the notes that he gave to your Counsel saying what Mr Siyakamela told him.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: When one of the (indistinct) were here, I think that evidence about the torture of his clients as how he was tortured to give a false statement, how he was tortured and killed, he submitted himself, and gave false statement. What validity can I attach to a statement extracted by (indistinct), or any other policeman during those days. People died, having then been forced to say things they did not do. That was South Africa of yesterday which we are trying to forget here but instead we are doing the opposite.

MR VALLY: Well, the very last time that Mrs Siyakamela gave that version was last Saturday, and that wasnít under any pressure when he confirmed the version given to us by Mr Sono.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I do not know about that. That is my view, and I hold that view.

MR VALLY: Letís move on then.

The statement issued by the Democratic Movement on the 15th of February, 1989, which you at a Section 29 Inquiry suggested was possibly a Stratcom operation, subsequently we had Mr Cachalia and Mr Morobe confirming that they were party to the statement, and it represented the Democratic Movement at the time. Very briefly, (indistinct)

"We are outraged by the reign of terror that the team has been associated with. The practices have violated the spirit and ethos of the Democratic Movement. Numerous efforts have been made to reconcile the conflict between Mrs Mandela and the community. The last of these efforts was intervention of the Crisis Committee comprising some of our most able and respected members. On every occasion Mrs Mandela has refused to co-operate, and has chosen to disregard the sentiment of the community......"

It goes on, you know the statement.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, Mr Chairman, it was not surprising then, it is still not surprising there today. We all know the statement which was made by (indistinct) before this forum. The last paragraph of which was the recommendation that people like myself should hold political office. The whole (indistinct) of having done that effort at the time, was precisely because of what he was trying to do to this day, and we out there know (indistinct) and in fact when I returned from Brandfort, and I made enquiries about Molefe Morobe, the youth of the day told me that he was Mefi Patel, because he belongs to the (indistinct).

MR VALLY: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, (indistinct) the allegation regarding the statement now, previously you said it was Stratcom, now youíre talking about something else.

Let me go on. These two other statements that were issued.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hanif, can I find out how much more?

MR VALLY: Ten minutes, Archbishop.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR VALLY: Thereís two more statements issued. The one by the Mandela Crisis Committee or rather, the one was sent by the Mandela Crisis Committee to the late President of the ANC, Mr Oliver Tambo and youíre aware of that statement?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is the statement which means Mufamadi was cowardly enough not to own up to me when it was (indistinct) and before this forum, he denied that we had a discussion of that sort.

MR VALLY: But this is a statement, where four prominent people under oath confirmed that they were party to the statement, and had in fact sent it to Mr Oliver Tambo.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I ...(indistinct) here, about all I said, I didnít know (indistinct), nor did they ever present that statement to me.

MR VALLY: They made some strong statements in there regarding the assault and death of Stompie Seipei, the assault on Mekgwe Mono, and Cebukhulu, the whole issue of the Football Club and its activities, and your allegations regarding them.

We also know about the statement issued by the ANC itself. Iíll read you a portion of a statement issued by the ANC. The statement was made on the 18th of February, 1989. (indistinct)

Recently there have been serious concerns pertaining to the activities of the group known as the Mandela Football Club which have raised great concern within the Mass Democratic Movement, and struggling people as a whole.

The ANC shared the concern of the people, and has at all times tried to intervene to find amicable solutions to the problem. In the light of (indistinct) and activities in the recent past, our organisation complimenting our initiative or leading personnel to the Mass Democratic Movement, trying to use influence to bring about the (indistinct) of the group.

Unfortunately our counsel was not heeded by Comrade Winnie Mandela.

The situation has been further complicated by the fact that she does not belong to any structures, and therefore did not benefit from the discipline counselling, and collectivity of the Mass Democratic Movement. Under these circumstances we have ...(inaudible) committing mistakes which the enemy exploited, once that incident related to the so-called Mandela Football Club. In the course of time, the Club engaged undercover activities which have angered the community. We fully understand the anger of the people and their anger towards this club".

So youíve got the MDM making strong statements, youíve got a strong message sent by the Mandela Crisis Committee, youíve got the ANC itself issuing a statement which they reproduced in their official journal, and this is in February, 1989, after the Club was supposedly disbanded on the instructions of Mr Nelson Mandela in April 1987.

I again ask this question - "Was there any basis for this strong feeling as displayed by such prominent people and institution, and an organisation, such as the ANC?"

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I gave you my answer and that was my final answer.

MR VALLY: Your answer in the Section 29 Inquiry, was this was all set-up. We now produce the people in person who made this statement, except the ANC statement, but that was Mr Jaba. What is your answer regarding the statement made by he Mandela Crisis Committee, and the ANC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It has not changed my view at the time. I certainly believed then, and that was my view, and I gave you my final answer.

MR VALLY: The one thing you told us, was that the ANC never contacted you regarding the disbanding or regarding the activities of the Football Club. Weíve had Rev. Frank Chikane stating that he was personally phoned by President Oliver Tambo, because it was such an unusual occurrence at the time. He remembered it very well where Mr Tambo informed him that he had telephoned you about the issue. Do you still maintain that the ANC did not contact you on the issue of their activities of the Football Club?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Of course, no, that I had those details here, they wouldnít have come to me and said that they had communicated with Oliver Tambo at the time. Even if he has, the ANC was underground, and this was in Lusaka, unless they had no idea how a structure underground, operated.

MR VALLY: If you recall Rev. Frank Chikaneís evidence, he stated that Mr Tambo called him, informed him he has telephoned to raise his concerns about you, and specifically asked him to go and see you about the issue, and when he went to see you, he advised you that Mr Oliver Tambo had in fact informed him to raise it with you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was not correct.

MR VALLY: So what was in the Frank Chikane report was not correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not say that it was not correct for him to have spoken to Oliver Tambo. I said so (indistinct) to Tambo speaking to me. That was not correct.

MR VALLY: So what you are saying from the people that were making allegations about you or statements about you, are we to (indistinct) that everyone else is in fact lying?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: So far, what I have told you were untrue.

MR VALLY: The one aspect that we need to raise, is all these people that you have called ......... Iím talking specifically about Mr Richardson, Miss Falati, Mr Morgan, these are people who were around you for considerable periods of time. If they are of the kind of the calibre that youíve described, you called them (indistinct) youíve called them all sorts of things, why did you surround yourself with such people?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If I had known that they were such characters, surely I wouldnít have surrounded myself with them. I do not know people in advance, what they are going to do in future. At that time when I operated with them, I believed in them.

MR VALLY: My very last question is a question Iíve posed to you before, and Iíll repeat it in view of all the evidence weíve heard these last 8 days.

We have read to you a number of cases where people associated with the Football Club have been sentenced to long terms of imprisonment. We have heard evidence of people who at one stage were close to you, Iím talking about Mr Jerry Richardson, Iím talking about Miss Falati, Iím talking about Mr John Morgan. In retrospect, do you feel that there was a major problem regarding the behaviour of the young people and the behaviour of the people you surrounded yourself with?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have not refuted the fact that there were problems around some of the youth, who were either at my place or operating from their homes. I have conceded that there were problems.

MR VALLY: You see the reason why Iím asking you this is, when I asked you the question under Section 29, I was hoping that weíd get more. My question is in retrospect, and Iím quoting now from page 162 the second Section 29.

" Bearing in mind all the criminal cases these people were involved in, at this point in time, do you think that there was a major cause of concern regarding the behaviour of the people youíve accommodated?"

And your answer was: I have no retrospective feelings whatsoever.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In relation to the overall picture, what I meant was in fact, in (indistinct) if I had information I now have at my disposal, surely I would have acted differently. If for instance Katiza was a police informer, and he had this information, he knew and he did not convey it to me, if it had been conveyed to me, I would have acted differently and most of the acts which took place by some of these boys have been operated away from my house. Iím not responsible for the actions they undertook outside of my premises.

MR VALLY: Just very briefly.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was tragic that some of them were directly linked to the previous Football Club.

MR VALLY: Just briefly responding to that mention of Mr Sydney Mufamadi, he only mentioned that Mr Katiza had possibly been an informer, was in that report from the Mandela Crisis Committee to the President of the ANC, Mr Tambo and that document youíve rejected. I donít know if thereís any other independent information regarding Mr Mufamadiís knowledge that Mr Katiza Cebekhulu was an informer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No , there was a statement by the ANC in Natal, confirming that Sydney held at the time.

MR VALLY: Is that the recent statement?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There was a statement I saw from the ANC.

MR VALLY: Fine, very polite and respectful request.

In view of the number of people serving sentences, in view of the number of young people who have been killed, in view of the number of young people who have been tortured, in retrospect, do you think that you should have handled things differently at the time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have given an answer Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: Do you have any regret or any remorse to what has happened at the time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Of course I have regret to the subsequent losses of life of some of the boys and Iím very deeply regretful of what has happened to some of the youngsters like Ikaneng, etc, that I regret. But I do not regret whatsoever for having covered for those who have protected them from the vicious system of the day.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

Mr Kades.

MR KADES: Thank you Commissioner.

Mrs Madikizela Mandela, my name is Norman Kades and I represent the Abu-Baker Asvat family.

I want to take you back to the 29th of December of 1988, when Mrs Falati made the report to you concerning what she alleged to be the practices at the manse of the Methodist Church. When she told you that did she come to you alone, or did she come to you in the company by Katiza Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think it was mid-morning, I wouldn't really recall precisely what time it was.

MR KADES: And she told you that she had been informed by a youth that he had been sodomised by Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At that stage she spoke to me about Katiza only.

MR KADES: Did she tell you that Katiza had informed her that he had been sodomised by Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is what she told me.

MR KADES: And this was a matter of grave concern to you obviously?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, the way she conveyed it to me, it was a matter of grave concern.

MR KADES: And you immediately decided that you would take this young man to Dr Asvat?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: To Dr Asvat.

MR KADES: To have him examined relating to the charge of sodomy?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, just to contextualise this properly. At that stage Falati was more concerned about Rev Paul Verryn and this youngster because she felt that he was a danger to Rev Paul Verryn.

MR KADES: So when you took Katiza to Dr Asvat eventually, you went with two matters in mind?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KADES: The one was the sodomy and the other was the mental condition of Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR KADES: And when you saw Dr Asvat, you disclosed your concerns to him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR KADES: Of the two aspects, and insofar as you are aware, were you present at the examination?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't recall, but I think every doctor's practice is, when he is examining the patient, you don't remain inside.

MR KADES: Yes, I don't know about any doctor's practice, but you were the senior person who had brought Katiza, did you not accompany him into the doctor's surgery and to the examination?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I don't recall that.

MR KADES: You don't recall that. What was the - and presumably you were concerned as to what Dr Asvat's findings were after he had examined Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He came out and spoke to me.

MR KADES: And what did he tell you about the sodomy, the allegation of sodomy?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, he told me that he couldn't make any finding and that he needed to consult specialists and I assumed about both conditions. His mental state and whatever was related to sodomy, I don't know what you can see as a specialist, I am not a doctor.

MR KADES: So at that stage you had no evidence independent of the claim made by Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: None, whatsoever.

MR KADES: Who was in this confused, mental state, that the Rev Paul Verryn had been guilty of this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, Dr Asvat did mention the fact that he was worried about Cebekhulu's mental state. He said he seemed to be confused.

MR KADES: And is that the evidence you relied upon, the evidence of that confused young man to make the accusation against Paul Verryn that you eventually made?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I made no accusation against Rev Paul Verryn. This information was brought to me by Falati.

MR KADES: The problem that I have Madam, is that on the 1st of February of 1989, and I have seen that in NBC documentary, you spent 15, 20 minutes making the accusation against Paul Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not making accusations against Paul Verryn. Up to that stage, they were the most damaging documentaries both on the BBC and various other news media about this situation.

MR KADES: Sorry damaging in respect of Paul Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In respect of myself.

MR KADES: No, no, no, they were not talking about you for a change.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I was responding to damaging reports about myself.

MR KADES: Yes, well I have not asked you about damaging reports about yourself.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am saying I was responding to those damaging reports. That is when I gave that interview.

MR KADES: Yes, but I am asking you questions today, you were responding to damaging reports about yourself?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KADES: And your response to the damaging reports about yourself, was this ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I explained myself.

MR KADES: Would you let me please.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, give him the chance to put his question and then you will respond.

MR KADES: You were responding to attacks made on yourself by the BBC, by in turn attacking a priest of the Methodist church in Soweto, is that what you are telling us?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: May I repeat again?

MR KADES: Please.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not make those accusations against Paul Verryn, I did not know. I did not know Rev Paul Verryn, I was merely giving an explanation from evidence given to me by Falati.

MR KADES: Mrs Mandela, Madikizela-Mandela, that NBC documentary that I saw two weeks ago is still in existence, and if necessary the content of the documentary is before this Commission, portion of it has been read to you, and if necessary I will ask that it be shown to you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know what your question is, are you asking me whether you should present that documentary to this Commission?

MR KADES: Well, if you let me put the question Madam, and you don't interrupt me, then you will hear that ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Oh, I am sorry, I thought you had finished.

MR KADES: I understand your point.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't appear to be intimidating the witness. I am Chairing here and if you feel the witness not to be conducting herself properly I am the one to make that ruling. Please, I think on the whole, we have been relatively amicable in our relationships and I would wish for that to remain that way.

MR KADES: That is so Mr Chairman, but with due respect, if the witness doesn't answer the question, I am obliged because it is my duty to do so, to put the question and to have the witness answer the question.

CHAIRPERSON: All I am saying is I think that we ought not to have what appears to be an aggressive attitude. What we are seeking is to arrive at the truth and this is not, as I keep saying, not a court of law, although we follow some of those proceedings and I think that we are far better able to get to the truth if people are not harassed, or feel harassed, and I would hope too Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, that you will give the counsel for the Asvat family, or whoever else questions you, the opportunity of putting their question and as far as possible to respond without getting too hot under the collar. Thank you.

MR KADES: Madam, you say in the documentary -

"Paul Verryn has a very, very serious psychological problem, I do not understand why a man of his calibre and a Christian would continue sodomising black children".

Was the only source of your information that which had been given to you by Katiza Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KADES: And you knew that this information had not been confirmed by Dr Asvat during the medical examination of Katiza Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I knew that the information had not been given to me by Dr Asvat.

MR KADES: And you knew Madam that an appointment had been made by Dr Asvat for the purpose of ascertaining whether or not Cebekhulu had been sodomised?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: To my recollection, already at that stage, allegations were made that I was accusing Rev Paul Verryn and I needed to give an explanation as to how I came across that information. And I believed at that stage that if it was so and that Rev Paul Verryn was abusing youngsters, then there was a problem. I believed so.

MR KADES: Absolutely, absolutely, but Madam, the impression that you give in the documentary if I might read it to you -

"Rev Paul Verryn, it is known within church circles, and it is known by those who have been working very closely with him, that this problem, that this problem has just been discovered by me, that he has this problem. The problem has not just been discovered by me".

What information did you have concerning that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At that time, we had information that Rev Paul Verryn had been spoken to by Rev Chikane and Bishop Storey and to my recollection the court record does confirm that. The court record in which I was charged for kidnapping.

MR KADES: I am not concerned with respect, with the court record where you were charged with kidnapping.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, you asked for the origin of my sources and I am giving it to you.

MR KADES: Yes, well the origin of your source is not years later where you are giving evidence in a court record. The origin of your source on the 1st of February 1989, long before you were charged, relates to evidence that you had in your possession at that time. I ask you Madam, what is the source of this information?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have just confirmed the source of my information.

MR KADES: The source of the information is that, may I please so as not to do you a dis-service, the source of the information you say is the court record which related to a hearing that took place a year or two years later, is that what you are saying?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Don't distort the information I am giving you. I am saying at that stage my understanding was that Rev Chikane had spoken to Rev Paul Verryn and that Bishop Storey had spoken to Paul Verryn about this problem and I said you can confirm that, my understanding was based on those facts in the court record.

MR KADES: I don't understand, I am sorry Madam, but maybe that is my problem.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, it is definitely.

MR KADES: Well, may I then continue Madam and read to you what you said further in the documentary which is available.

You say -

"It is a problem that is well-known in church circles. He is supposed to have been transferred from Roodepoort because of the same problem and he is supposed to be continuing with the said activities with the full knowledge of some of the top members of the church"

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was the information I had at the time.

MR KADES: From whom?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At the time.

MR KADES: From whom at the time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have just stated that at the time my information was based on what I had been told, that Rev Chikane and Bishop Storey had spoken to Rev Paul Verryn about this problem.

MR KADES: Are you telling us, please let us understand what your evidence is, are you telling us that the information you had, this information that I had just read to you, emanated from the Rev Storey, Peter Storey and from Rev Frank Chikane, is that what you are saying?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Again sir, I am asking you not to distort me right in front of my face.

MR KADES: I think you are distorting.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I said originally the information came from Falati and subsequently you asked me for further sources. I have given that to you.

MR KADES: Well, Madam, you must have been very concerned about the allegations concerning that which had been made to you by Cebekhulu which by the 1st of February 1989, was still the only information you had concerning the unacceptable, alleged unacceptable behaviour of Paul Verryn. You have told us that Dr Asvat had made an appointment with a specialist to deal with the problems mentioned by Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KADES: The two problems you have told us of earlier. MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, Dr Asvat was supposed to have made an appointment.

MR KADES: Well, did you go back to Dr Asvat to ascertain what had happened concerning the appointment he was alleged to have made?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I didn't go back to Dr Asvat because I think the sequence of events then prevented me from going back on the Katiza issue, lots of things happened at the time.

MR KADES: You were no longer concerned with the Katiza issue?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It actually fell out of my hands because of the events of the time. I was no longer able to concentrate on Cebekhulu's problems.

MR KADES: Well, the problem that you were dealing with at the time, the issue of the sodomy allegations were very central to your life at that time, wasn't it? It all emanated, all those problems emanated from the accusations of sodomy made against Paul Verryn and I am sorry to be raising this issue here.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KADES: So Katiza Cebekhulu was very central to what you were dealing with at the time, he was your star witness?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: We are not at variance about that.

MR KADES: So why didn't you take him back to Dr Asvat?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have given you an answer.

MR KADES: That you were busy with?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That the events of the time prevented me from going back to Dr Asvat.

MR KADES: What events?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Lots of things happened which was during the so-called abduction of the boys and all that.

MR KADES: Absolutely, all related to the issue of sodomy?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is true.

MR KADES: Of which you had no evidence other than that of a confused little boy, Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is true, but I am not a doctor. I was not in a position to state whether in fact that confusion did not arise as a result of being sodomised.

MR KADES: Absolutely Madam, and so why didn't you follow up that particular issue because you had been to the doctor, he had told you how to deal with the matter, he had said we will wait for the specialist to return at the beginning of January.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have given you an answer in that regard.

MR KADES: Well, Madam, I don't regard it as an appropriate answer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Very well.

MR KADES: But the Commission will decide eventually.

I want to put to you, to question you concerning the visit at Dr Asvat with Cebekhulu. Did you take Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat on the day on which he was brought to you or was it the day thereafter?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The day he was brought to me.

MR KADES: Well, the day he was brought to you was the 29th of December, we have established from independent evidence. When you arrived at the rooms, of course you knew that Mrs Sisulu was the person, the nurse and the receptionist employed by Dr Asvat?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I knew that.

MR KADES: And did you find Mrs Sisulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have no recollection of seeing her that day.

MR KADES: I see.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: She may have been there, she may not have been there.

MR KADES: Well, you know a card was filled in for Katiza Cebekhulu giving his name, the ordinary patient's card that Dr Asvat used, or that was used in his practice. A card stating the name and the age and the address of Cebekhulu, do you know that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I suppose that is the procedure in every consulting room.

MR KADES: Did the information concerning his name and address and age emanate from you or was it given by Mr Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, it emanated from the patient himself.

MR KADES: I see. Well, I want to place on record Mr Chairman, that with regard to the evidence of Mrs Albertina Sisulu the other day, that we have inspected the documentation and more particularly the card of Katiza Cebekhulu, which you will recall Mrs Albertina Sisulu stated was not in her handwriting, because it had been printed.

And she told this Commission and she was accustomed not to print, she was unable to print she told us, that she rather wrote or scripted the words that she wrote. Well, we have compared the card of Katiza Cebekhulu with the card of Mbatha which was the only one available to us, and which is common cause, was completed by Mrs Albertina Sisulu and it is quite clear to us, and we accept it, that the card with the name of Katiza Cebekhulu and his address and age stated on it, are not in the handwriting of Mrs Albertina Sisulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other factors that seem to confirm this because this is quite important?

MR KADES: Well, Mr Chairman, the other factors which lead us apart from what is clearly a visible evidence and one doesn't need to be a handwriting expert to determine that these two documents are not in the handwriting of the same person, apart from that of course, is the evidence of Mrs Falati who has told this Commission that Mrs Sisulu was not present on that day and that a pregnant woman is the one who was then attending as a nurse and receptionist at Dr Asvat's surgery and also Mr Chairman, the evidence that we have just heard from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela herself, that she doesn't recall Mrs Sisulu as having been present on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kades, I want to say that this is a very important, but I don't think it is a concession. It is an important point that you are making, would you go further to say that with regard to this particular point, the mistake that that witness made, would have been possibly in her answer on the video?

MR KADES: Mr Chairman, I obviously can't comment on the making of the video and the circumstances under which the video was made but it is a matter which we find perfectly acceptable that a person of the age of Mrs Sisulu when making the video, might well have made the admission or assumed that because it was a card that emanated from Dr Asvat's office, that it was obviously completed in her hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. I will be making a statement later at the end of this hearing, because this is I think a very important point that we need to acknowledge. Thank you very, very much that you have of your own (indistinct) done this. Thank you.

MR KADES: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, just to finish off these aspects of the evidence, I must put to you what you said at page 92 of the second hearing, the in camera hearing. May I refer you and I put these questions to you Madam, for the reason that we seek to understand what happened with the late Dr Asvat.

You see, we have had allegations that you returned to the surgery, that there was, what is called or described somewhere as a volcanic row and we are investigating these matters as we are entitled to do and that is why we have come here.

You see Madam at the bottom of page 92 of the record of the in camera hearing, you say in answer to the question of Mr Vally and what did Dr Asvat say, and you say Dr Asvat made an appointment with the specialist who were supposed to be coming back on the 8th of January if I recollect the date correctly.

You see, this evidence causes us to believe that you were in fact, in your presence, or you were told that that day Dr Asvat had made an appointment with a specialist? And if such an appointment was made, it would be necessary for you, Katiza to be examined by the specialist and at some stage, presumably to return to Dr Asvat?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As I explained sir, events overtook that process and I was no longer able to deal with Katiza.

MR KADES: Well, do I understand then that your answer is that you confirm that an appointment was made for the 8th maybe of January?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct sir.

MR KADES: That is not what you have told us earlier?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did indicate that Dr Asvat was to arrange for a specialist to see this boy?

MR KADES: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Katiza.

MR KADES: Yes, but this of course is an actual statement that such an appointment was made.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I merely made an indication of a date.

MR KADES: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: From my recollection.

MR KADES: Yes, and you also indicated that an appointment was made.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me Mr Kades, I have been fairly generous in the time that we have allocated. I would hope that you would be able to have finished by the time we want to break for lunch, okay.

MR KADES: Oh, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR KADES: Thank you Mr Chairman. You see, what you've told us earlier today was that no appointment had been made and that an appointment was to be made.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I don't seem to recollect saying that. I did indicate that an appointment was to be made and I merely gave a vague date and this happened years ago. That was my recollection that Dr Asvat was to make an appointment.

MR KADES: If I were ever to make a submission to the Commission on that matter, Madam, I would say that you contradicted yourself, but let us move further.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What would be the reason for that? It makes no difference at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Put your next question.

MR KADES: Yes. Madam, you say events overtook you and you didn't keep the appointment with the specialist. Did you ever return to Dr Asvat with Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, sir.

MR KADES: There is evidence that we have heard, well there is evidence, a statement made before the in camera hearing, that if I might give you, it is page 105 of the second in camera hearing, there is an allegation Madam that you said that Krish Naidoo took Cebekhulu to the police station on the night of the 26th of January 1989 in order to lay a charge of sodomy against Paul Verryn.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had no recollection of such an event.

MR KADES: Well, if in fact there is evidence of such a charge, an attempt to lay such a charge, would you say that this was something that Cebekhulu ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If Krish Naidoo was acting for Cebekhulu, he would have been within his rights to do what he pleased. He didn't have to take instructions from me on behalf of Cebekhulu.

MR KADES: Well, I have no argument with that, but do you know whether Krish Naidoo was ever acting for Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't know sir.

MR KADES: So you know nothing about an attempt to lay a charge of sodomy against Paul Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have no such recollection.

MR KADES: Just give me one second please Mr Chairman. If it is appropriate Mr Commissioner, we may well adjourn for lunch, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished?

MR KADES: I have finished, yes.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KADES.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, is there someone who is up for grabs, there is five minutes? Mr Joseph?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOSEPH: Mr Mandela, my surname is Joseph, I represent Katiza Cebekhulu and Emma Nicholson. Let me just talk to you about the background to the events I have in mind. 1986, 1987, 1988, what was going on in our country and in particular what was taking place in Soweto.

Let me start off by inviting you who is in the best position to tell us this, and let me start off by telling you this because what you are going to tell us is known by everyone, we all live in this country, we all lived through those horrible times and we all know what was going on and I would in very broad terms say that what was going on in Soweto at this time, was akin to mayhem, the streets were burning, the Security Forces were raiding, MK cadres were coming in and you take it from there, do you agree with me, is that more or less what was happening?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Why more or less, that is very broad?

MR JOSEPH: Yes, well you help us Mrs Mandela, you assist us?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I can only state that the African National Congress was waging a struggle underground and there was anarchy all over the country.

MR JOSEPH: Help us Mrs Mandela.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon?

MR JOSEPH: Help us, these Commissioners want to know what it was like, help us?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You know I am not with you, I don't get that question.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you just had five minutes and if it is common cause that we knew all of us knew, what it was about - I am sorry. I gave you misleading information, we can't take lunch quite at one o'clock, the lunch hasn't arrived, but that doesn't mean - you've still got five minutes.

MR JOSEPH: I've been misled.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I think we want to go after you.

MR JOSEPH: May I ask you, are you limiting the cross-examination to five minutes?

DR BORAINE: Chairperson, we did mention that there was five minutes left, would anybody like to use those five minutes and could finish in that time, that was our assumption? But may I say in support of the Chairman, that to ask Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to give a lecture on how the situation was, would take her hours and we haven't got that sort of time. Perhaps if you put your questions.

MR JOSEPH: All right, let me help. It wouldn't take hours, it can be done in minutes.

DR BORAINE: I think you should put your questions.

MR JOSEPH: It could be done in moments. During this period of time, there was a state of emergency, that horrific things were taking place all over the country, including Soweto, people were being killed, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR JOSEPH: Necklacing was taking place, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That may also be correct.

MR JOSEPH: The victims of the necklacing were in the main what type of people?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I don't really know, I am not an expert in that part of your history.

MR JOSEPH: You don't know, you've got no idea who it is?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know who was necklaced at that stage and why.

MR JOSEPH: You don't know who the victims were?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The victims were supposed to be collaborators with the government.

MR JOSEPH: Collaborators and informants, is that correct.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Some of them yes.

MR JOSEPH: Correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, but I cannot vouch for that, that was just public information.

MR JOSEPH: Yes, now during April 1986 you are reported to have said the following "together, hand in hand, with our boxes of matches and necklaces, we shall liberate this country". Firstly are you correctly, is this a correct record of what you said?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I thought we came here to establish facts and to reconcile this country over atrocities, perpetrated by either ourselves or those people were working with. I did not necklace anybody.

MR JOSEPH: Madam, I am just asking.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: And a description of the events of the time, is not part of the perpetration of acts of atrocities.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just answer the question.

MR JOSEPH: Just try and answer the question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question I think one would grant the preamble as it were, that you gave.

MR JOSEPH: This document purports to record words you articulated. Is the record correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did make mention of those words in describing the situation of the time. It was not in relation to any particular necklacing I had personally done.

MR JOSEPH: There is no suggestion whatsoever Madam, that you personally committed any offence like that and let me put your mind at ease, there is no decision at this Committee or this Commission can make which is to the effect that you were guilty of any offence. You are presumed to be innocent.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, statements made at that time under those conditions, during our struggle.

MR JOSEPH: They were acceptable.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They were descriptive of that time.

MR JOSEPH: Let me take the liberty of telling you how I understand your words.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You may have understood it whichever way you pleased and you are free to do so.

MR JOSEPH: Let me rather then ask you this, will you convey what you intended the ordinary reader should have understood by these words.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not intend anything, I was describing the situation at the time.

MR JOSEPH: You did not intend any person who heard these words, to understand anything from these words?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was describing the situation at the time. And it is my final answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible to, I think you are representing the two clients you spoke of and it may be helpful, I don't want to ...

MR JOSEPH: May I interrupt at this stage, we are all over here and we look to you for guidance what you want. I know what the legislation says, the legislation says simply that the witnesses are here to answer questions.

I can only interpret that injunction by the legislature to mean that relevant questions are put to them and they are expected to answer those questions. Now relevancy in a period of time in which to answer the questions, do not go hand in hand. It seems to me that there were allegations against this lady that she participated or had a hand in offences which resulted in people who prima facie referred to as informers being killed.

In this five minutes of cross-examination you have heard the evidence, and here is this statement which can well be interpreted to mean that the speaker intended listeners to participate in certain events or to act in a certain manner in order to achieve the liberation of our country.

It is a simple question, did you intend certain people who heard your language to terminate the lives of collaborators or informers, is that what you intended?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have you the answer.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I think my learned colleague would want to admit at the same breath that is understanding the legislation, that that relevance must surely have to do with the items which have been identified in this subpoena and not a single case in that subpoena relates to people who had been necklaced. He is the one who must just admit that the relevance of this questions about those utterances, if not just a pure political statement, have no relevance whatsoever with the issues before you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not entirely certain about that, but what I was going to say to Mr Joseph, is that we are labouring under a misapprehension. We thought that you are going to be able to complete whatever it was that you wanted to do, in the five minutes allocated, but then if it is that you are wanting to go on a little further, I had said in the beginning, right in the beginning of this that because we want to finish, five minutes would be about the time.

I mean flexible, and when you raised your hand, we thought we are going to adjourn in five minutes time. Now, maybe you should go ahead and let's try and be able to have finished to you before we break.

MR JOSEPH: Allow me to press this question one more time. These words that you admit you uttered, what did you intend by these words?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I gave you my answer.

MR JOSEPH: I haven't heard it, would you repeat it.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I gave you my answer, I told you I was describing the situation at the time. If you don't like it, too bad.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Mrs Mandela, I think you have conducted yourself with dignity and I do not want for this hearing to degenerate into playing to galleries. It is important because we are not playing games here, we are about very serious issues.

And it would be good and I think very dignified to say this is your answer, I don't think that your last words are appropriate. I don't think that that is so and I will not allow that to happen. Please when you are asked a question, you either answer yes, no, whatever, but I don't think that we want sarcasms or any of this sort, please.

I want this to be reasonably friendly hearing, it is about very serious matters and I think that when you have answered with dignity, you have been able to carry it. It is when it appears as if one is seeking to play to galleries, and that applies to all of us.

Nobody here should be trying to score points just gratuitously, so if you could, please answer the question. If he seeks you to repeat it, repeat it and that should be the full stop you put. I don't want to be engaging in perhaps rebuking, I don't want to rebuke anybody.

Where are you now. You've got the answer that the witness wants to give.

MR JOSEPH: Well, I then appeal to you as the Chairman, to say that this is not an answer to the question. This is not an answer to the question. It can be Mr Chairman, and I mean this with great respect, it can be that we sit here for five minutes, you really get no assistance from - myself and my learned friends, nothing at all. In five minutes we can do nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: You have had more than five minutes.

MR JOSEPH: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: You've had more than five minutes.

MR JOSEPH: Of cross-examination?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It is actually nearly 15 minutes.

MR JOSEPH: And we haven't got an answer to one question.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you know you try again and try and give an answer. We would have to sit down and say are we satisfied. I can say to you perhaps it is not the answer you expect, it is not the answer, but that is the answer she gives.

MR JOSEPH: You see, cross-examination is a little more than the cross-examiner just accepting an answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to say apart from just describing, when you made it and I accept that in the heat of the moment, we may say very many things, but what was your intention?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: (Indistinct) intention, I made that statement to describe the times then.

MR JOSEPH: It is not descriptive, the language you used, you are exhorting people to do something to achieve an end.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I am telling you I didn't do so.

MR JOSEPH: You didn't intend it?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If your understanding is that, then of course it is your understanding. I am telling you I described the situation of the time. You are wanting me to give an analysis of your choice.

I did not intend anything, I was describing the situation, the political situation in the country at the time. Things that were happening at the time. Now you can interpret it the way you want because you have that democratic right to do so.

MR JOSEPH: So, together hand, in hand, with our boxes of matches and our necklaces ...

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, with respect, this is just politicking.

CHAIRPERSON: I think I have said, let me - can you please yes.

MR JOSEPH: My learned friend, Mr Vally quoted to you from your maiden speech in parliament, do you remember that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I do.

MR JOSEPH: And your interpretation of the language you used then, was that you rescued the boys from my house. You rescued the boys from your own house, that was your answer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As you say.

MR JOSEPH: Is that correct, is that an interpretation?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I gave that interpretation that at that time I was referring to removing them handing them over to Dr Motlana, to take them to Bishop Storey.

MR JOSEPH: If my learned friend could just refer to that speech again, let's just have the language of that speech? So your interpretation of the language you used in parliament, had something to do with rescuing the boys from your own house and handing them over to Dr Motlana?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, because allegations were all over about them being detained there against their will.

MR JOSEPH: The ordinary reader or ordinary listener, would he or she heard the words, which the learned friend, Mr Vally will now repeat, they understood it to mean that you rescued these people from your house and you gave them to Dr Motlana?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are requesting me to interpret the readership? I am unable to do that, I have just given you my answer. I am telling you that was reference to my house.

CHAIRPERSON: Actually, can you just ...

MR JOSEPH: Read it.

MR VALLY: I will read the sentence Archbishop. When a report was made to me that there were youths who were being sexually abused, I unhesitatingly fell in with the plans to rescue them and gave them refuge in my house.

MR JOSEPH: Rescue them from where?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, may I request that answer to be settled ... (tape ends) ... and my learned colleague would concede that is how the record stands, and now that it is quoted without context, it is leading perhaps, unfortunately to the type of cross-examination that is emanating.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the only thing is that I would concede the point that you are making. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela probably didn't hear herself, when she was answering she did say something about rescuing from her own house and I think that that was a bit strange.

MR JOSEPH: Here are lots of help. Your interpretation of that excerpt from your maiden speech of parliament, was interpreted by you to be understood by the reader or the listener to mean that you rescued the youths from your house.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, can that ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think, all right, you say ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What is your problem?

MR SEMENYA: Can the excerpts and the context under which that answer was given be read to the witness and let her respond therefrom?

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to suggest is that we have not in fact been able to finish with Mr Joseph, that we take this break and if you could help to have the particular transcript made available to the relevant people, will you do that.

Order please, I have not yet asked that you can leave. We will resume two o'clock.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: It will be a good thing if people sit down. Will you please sit down, thank you. Order please. There are people who don't know the meaning of sit down. Thank you.

A set of keys were left in the you know where and this as well, it is an information booklet, application for something or other. I am aiming for us to try and finish by say five o'clock. We are under particular constraints because Dr Boraine and I have to be in Cape Town tomorrow for another hearing, a State Security Council hearing tomorrow. Unfortunately you have to fly to get to Cape Town and we are booked on flights. I need to say yes, I say five minutes is probably unfair to you ladies and gentlemen. Let us look at between 10 and 15. Again even that, let me say to you, I will be flexible.

And I am going to let Mr Joseph just run for a while and if on this side, you will help us by trying to give as direct, concise answers that you can and I know you can, and if on that side you also try to have precise questions and let's get to the point.

I don't want to stop as might appear to be the case, I don't want to stop what people might consider to be hard questions. And I also don't want to stop you from being, well I was going to say rumbustious, but no, no, no. That may be some times although the feelings, feelings are important too.

But I think that for the dignity of the hearing, it is when you are also restraint. Thank you. Mr Joseph, let us have a short (inaudible) now.

WINNIE MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOSEPH: (continued) Mrs Mandela, let us go back to the quotation which involves the boxes of matches. I am going to put to you that for the ordinary reader of what you said, you intended to say the following.

That you, together with the people you were addressing, intended to liberate the country by using this method of eliminating people and the people you intended to eliminate were those people who one can describe as informers and collaborators, would that be correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is completely wrong.

MR JOSEPH: What did you intend by this statement?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not want us to go back to the previous discussions. I think I explained myself. That was a description of the times of the day.

MR JOSEPH: Mr Chairman, I look to you for assistance. I asked the witness to repeat the answer, she says she has given an answer, I don't have any record of that answer.

CHAIRPERSON: I could say have another shot, but that is her answer. I think we as the panel are going to have to make our own judgement on the validity or otherwise of the answer.

MR JOSEPH: That is not my point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR JOSEPH: My point is that I do not recall an answer being given by the witness about what she intended when she made use of this expression. It is a simple question, a simple answer. What did you intend when you addressed the people and you uttered these words.

What did you intend to convey to the people?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I simply made a statement describing the times.

MR JOSEPH: Describing the times?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Under which we lived, the conditions of those times.

MR JOSEPH: The times under which you lived, informers and collaborators were being killed by a necklace method, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know of hundreds of informers being killed in that fashion.

MR JOSEPH: I never said hundreds of informers.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know of any informers that were killed in that fashion.

MR JOSEPH: So then what were you describing?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was describing what was alleged to be happening. I have no personal knowledge of any.

MR JOSEPH: You were describing what was alleged to be taking place?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, what was being alleged at the time.

MR JOSEPH: You were informing the people in the community that this is what is taking place, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: To my recollection, a previous sentence to that is that we do not have arms. I cannot recollect the precise wording. We did not have arms and that people have had to resort to things like that.

I was not making a statement to encourage people to necklace.

MR JOSEPH: You weren't?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No.

MR JOSEPH: Together, hand in hand, with our boxes.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, with respect, I think there have been answers to this thing. And I still question the relevance of that utterance in relation to the issues that are before this Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I might agree with you in hard, I do not agree entirely on the question of relevance, because I gather that some people have in their amnesty applications used this utterance as justifying what they did.

That is neither here nor there, well, no actually it is in that they committed gross violations of human rights and some of them were apprehended and are applying or are in the process of applying for amnesty and whether that is the case or not, the point is the same, some of those people have used this utterance as what gave them as it were, they were under the impression that they were carrying out an exhortation.

But I don't know whether we are able to get further with the witness. I think you have put the question. All right.

MR JOSEPH: Whatever you might say, the language that I have read to you, would be understood by the ordinary reader to mean that you are exhorting them to make use of a necklace to liberate the country.

Then you say something else, that is an objective fact. You were an MK soldier, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not a trained MK soldier. I have been referred to as an operative because of the assistance I gave to cadres.

MR JOSEPH: You described yourself as being an MK soldier. I beg your pardon, you were a member of Umkonto weSizwe, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon?

MR JOSEPH: You were a member of Umkonto weSizwe?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, of course I am.

MR JOSEPH: Is that not the military wing of the ANC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is the military wing of the ANC.

MR JOSEPH: So you are a member of the military wing of the ANC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I am.

MR JOSEPH: You are a soldier?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was, yes.

MR JOSEPH: Correct. The African National Congress have made a decision to overthrow the white racist regime by means of an armed struggle and they went to war, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is common knowledge, yes.

MR JOSEPH: And you had an enemy that you had identified, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Are you now discussing the policies of the African National Congress? Is that where we are?

MR JOSEPH: No, I am asking you whether an enemy had been identified. I think the answer is obvious.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think you should direct that question to the organisation in its entirety. The African National Congress did identify its enemy.

MR JOSEPH: And who was that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The government of the day Mr Joseph.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

MR JOSEPH: Madam, if you just take me into your confidence. These questions are straight forward, easy to answer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have answered you, I have said the government of the day was identified by the African National Congress as its enemy.

MR JOSEPH: And in particular the security services employed by the government of the day, correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was part of the government.

MR JOSEPH: The Security Forces employed by the government of the day in order to defend itself, in order to overcome the attack that was being made by the ANC, made use of many, many means didn't they?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Of course the government of the day was fought with every possible means necessary.

MR JOSEPH: And one of the means they employed was that one way or another, they were able to get people to act as informers, to infiltrate units and to give back intelligence to the Security Services, who then used to act on that intelligence, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What is the question?

MR JOSEPH: The strategy employed by the government of the day, one of the strategies, was to make use of informers who they would use to infiltrate MK cadres or MK strongholds or MK safe houses, and those informers would then relate that information to the Security Forces and the Security Forces would use that information, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is common cause.

MR JOSEPH: Yes, so you have identified yourself with the aims of the African National Congress and you had the same enemy as the African National Congress, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am a member of the African National Congress.

MR JOSEPH: The answer is yes or no?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Obviously, yes.

MR JOSEPH: The word enemy can be enlarged to include conventional soldiers, members of the South African Police Force and informers and traitors, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I would imagine so.

MR JOSEPH: You would imagine so? Now, what would occur if you came across a person who you knew, you identified, you were satisfied that this person was an informer, a traitor, what would your attitude be towards that person?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My attitude would be that of the African National Congress.

MR JOSEPH: Which would be what?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't actually understand what sort of attitude you mean, what position would I take. I had no such powers to take decisions myself as to what should happen to those people, whoever they were.

MR JOSEPH: What would your attitude be?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My attitude would be that of not cooperating with informers and collaborators.

MR JOSEPH: And having identified a person as a collaborator, having identified a person as being an informer, identified a person as a traitor?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I wouldn't work hand in hand with such a person if I had that knowledge.

MR JOSEPH: What would you do?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I would surely not cooperate with such a person.

MR JOSEPH: You would pat them on the back and you would say I have identified you to be a traitor, please go away, leave my house, you would do that? Is that what your attitude would be?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I thank God I didn't have any such a situation where I had to pat an informer on the back or communicate with an informer and say you have been identified as an informer. I have not had such a situation.

MR JOSEPH: You never had, and did you have any attitude towards informers, what you would do?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What I would do?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I think the question has been asked and answered. The witness has said at least on three occasions that she would not cooperate with an informer. I don't know to ask the question what would you do is intended to solicit and unlock which answer now?

CHAIRPERSON: That is probably a justifiable objection, can you - I have really been very generous Mr Joseph in terms of time, can you come to a conclusion now?

MR JOSEPH: Having identified a person as being an informer, you had a greater duty to your comrades in arms, then just not cooperating with the informers, is that not correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't understand the type of question you are asking me. Is that now an assumption?

MR JOSEPH: I am putting something to you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: A hypotheses?

MR JOSEPH: I am putting to you that in real life the situation that you found yourself in, had you identified a person as being an informer, part of your duties to your comrades in arms, would have involved more than adopting an attitude where you would not cooperate with them, you would have to do something else?

You would have to at least advise your other comrades that you had identified a person as being an informers, isn't that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I had no such a situation where I had personally go and identify an informer and be expected to act on that.

MR JOSEPH: Would you not have been required to do that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, why would I have to be personally required to go out of my way and inform people that such and such a person is an informer?

MR JOSEPH: To inform your comrades in arms that you have identified Mr X as being an informer?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, no such a situation arose.

MR JOSEPH: Is not forewarned being forearmed?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I should imagine that is a good theory.

MR JOSEPH: And wouldn't it be very important to your comrades who were perhaps staying in a safe house to advise them that Mr X is an informer, be careful if he calls on you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, it did not happen.

MR JOSEPH: It did not happen? You actually have no attitude towards informers?

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just, how much more time? I think we really - let me give you one more minute.

MR JOSEPH: I put it to you Mrs Mandela that at least Lolo Sono, at least Stompie Seipei were identified by you as being informers and then you took steps to eliminate them.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is ludicrous Mr Chairman, almost nonsensical.

MR JOSEPH: Let me give you a real life situation where you have personal knowledge. You had referred two MK soldiers to the home of Jerry Richardson, correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I beg your pardon?

MR JOSEPH: You have referred two MK soldiers to the home of Jerry Richardson?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I did.

MR JOSEPH: That is correct? That house was attacked and two MK soldiers were killed.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is true.

MR JOSEPH: From your own evidence, we know of two other people who knew that there were MK soldiers in that house and both these people were not killed or apprehended by the police, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't really know what you are talking about.

MR JOSEPH: Well, think carefully and you will know what I am talking about. The two people I am referring to are Jerry Richardson, he knew there were MK people in the house, correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: And the fourth person, apart from the two MK soldiers was Lolo Sono, he knew there were MK people?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, at what point were they identified as informers?

MR JOSEPH: Your yes, is all I want. That is all.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't understand your question.

MR JOSEPH: Well, you will understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I don't think ...

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, in fairness we now know that Jerry Richardson would also have communicated that fact to Sergeant Pretorius and Sergeant Pretorius would have communicated that fact to what Richardson calls policemen who would fill Orlando stadium.

To put it to the witness that it was only four people, would be inaccurate in the understanding of the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, I think we really have got to get to your final question.

MR JOSEPH: This is the final question. So at the time the house was hit, you believed that Jerry Richardson was your trusted ally?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR JOSEPH: Correct. The only other person who you have told us who was on your side of the fence, an ally of yours, was Lolo Sono, he was the only other person who knew that the two MK soldiers were in that house, correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was my courier, not necessarily an ally.

MR JOSEPH: Your courier?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, my courier.

MR JOSEPH: All right, so the house is hit, the two MK soldiers are eliminated, Jerry Richardson your trusted ally in respect of whom you hold no suspicions is alive and well and Lolo Sono disappears of the face of the earth, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He disappeared the same day from the evidence that was led here.

MR JOSEPH: That is correct.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At that time, he did not - I didn't know.

MR JOSEPH: Now, I put it to you that as an MK soldier that you had an obligation to your comrades in arms, that when you came to know of an informer, you had to do something, and you had to do something drastic. And that is a reasonable explanation for the end of Lolo Sono. Am I wrong?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are totally wrong. That lacks the logic I would have expected from you. That is why Jerry Richardson came to stay with me.

MR JOSEPH: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOSEPH.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Richard.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, I won't be long. Madam, so that we understand each other I will summarise what my client's case is all about. He admits to murdering ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just identify, I don't know that you told the witness that you represent a particular client.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon, you are right Chairperson. I will repeat my name again, Tony Richard. Madam, to summarise my client's position, his case is that ...

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he?

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson, I presumed everybody knew, I am sorry.

His case is that he admits to murdering four people, abducting four as well, the attempted murder of one other and he goes on to say that he did these deeds at your instruction and with your cooperation, participation and authority, what do you say to his complaints and charges?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You will agree with me sir, that after the public spectacle presented before this Commission by your client, I do not think even you believe that.

MR RICHARD: Now, we have all heard the evidence over the last two weeks and from the questioning that my learned colleagues have put you through, I can take it as said that you deny the various allegations against you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Absolutely sir.

MR RICHARD: But then, we proceed to also have as common cause that during that period between November 1988 and the end of January 1989, according to my count, approximately 10 people died.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: From the calculations and the evidence led here, that is probably a rough estimate, I am not sure.

MR RICHARD: And we have also established the further objective fact that sad as it is to acknowledge at this stage, there were three or four depending on how you count, or two, it doesn't matter, informers in your environment. I am not using the words Football Club or back yard, the two known ones now are Themba (indistinct) and Jerry Richardson and then there is also unsubstantiated allegations concerning Katiza Cebekhulu.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What was the first name you mentioned?

MR RICHARD: Jerry Richardson and Themba (indistinct), if I read my notes right.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not aware of Themba being an informer? Which Themba is that Mr Chairman?

MR VALLY: Johannes Mbatha, known as Themba.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I got that evidence here. I did not know him to be an informer. Nor would I believe De Kock would blow up an informer.

MR RICHARD: Yes, but we also know from I think it was Paul Erasmus, that your house was under 24 hour a day surveillance and indeed you described your own house as a police station? Correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not sure if it isn't still under observation. I believe it still it.

MR RICHARD: That might be.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Tragically.

MR RICHARD: But as my learned colleague, Mr Joseph said, one of the methods of the war at the time, was to infiltrate the enemy with informers and spies and sell outs and so on, correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, unfortunately these circumstantial facts stand and there is an inference that my client's case is reasonably, probably true, thank you Ma'am, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Kuny?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KUNY: I represent Ms Xoliswa Falati. Madam, you stated in the Section 29 hearing in camera, that you believed Ms Falati was responsible for the kidnapping of the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Can you repeat the question please.

MR KUNY: You stated in the in camera hearings when you gave evidence, that you believed Ms Falati was responsible for the kidnapping of the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I stated that Falati brought the youths to me.

MR KUNY: Well, it was put to you, the statement that you had made, a press report that you had released on the second of October, are you aware of that report, this year?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, if you can just refresh my memory what you are referring to.

MR KUNY: In that report, you made certain comments about Stompie Seipei's disappearance.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: Are you familiar with that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: And that report was put to you in the Section 29 proceedings as to what you meant by that report, are you aware of that report?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If you read the particular section you are referring to, I might be able to help.

MR KUNY: Do you not recall implicating Ms Falati in the kidnapping of the youths at this Section 29 proceedings?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I referred to Falati picking up the youths from the manse and I was not implicating her, it was a fact that she went to fetch the youths.

MR KUNY: Well, it was put to you by Mr Vally in those proceedings, in regard to this specific report, that Xoliswa Falati was responsible ...

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, can you give the ...

MR KUNY: I am referring to page 49. These are the second volumes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR KUNY: You said, it was put to you Xoliswa Falati was responsible for the kidnapping.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think it was the way the question was phrased to me.

MR KUNY: Well, that was what was actually put to you. Your answer was, yes, that is correct.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is correct that she collected the youths from the manse. That the court subsequently interpreted that to be abduction, (indistinct) on the case that was being put across to us.

MR KUNY: Is it your evidence that there was or was not an abduction of the youths at the manse? Are you disputing that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As far as I was concerned, evidence at that stage was that the youths had gone to the bus voluntarily. And evidence has been led here in this forum that the youths were singing and toyi-toying when they got into the bus. But then, as far as the court was concerned, they were abducted.

MR KUNY: Are you saying that at that stage that the allegations were brought to you regarding whether an abduction had taken place, you had no knowledge of that abduction?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It wasn't that I had no knowledge of the abduction, I had no knowledge of the youths being forcibly removed. It was stated to me that the youths had toyi-toyed into the bus.

MR KUNY: Do you accept today, having heard all the evidence before the Commission, that the youths were removed from the manse by application of some force?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, evidence has also been led here by, if I recollect correctly, by Morgan, who was the driver, who stated that in fact he saw them toyi-toying into the bus.

MR KUNY: Let me take it one step further Madam. After the youths were brought to your house, is it your evidence that there was no detention of the boys against their will?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My evidence is well known, my evidence is that I was not there when they were brought there forcibly and that I found the youths there.

MR KUNY: I will take that issue up with you later, but before I just want to deal with this question of the youths that lived at the back of your house and quite a lot of evidence has been given in this regard. If I can just clarify certain aspects of this.

Do you know how many youths at any one time, actually lived at the back of your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I wouldn't be able to give an exact figure at any given time.

MR KUNY: Did you know the nicknames of all of the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not all, but I addressed them with their nicknames, those I knew.

MR KUNY: And did a youth have to get permission from you or from anyone else, if he wanted to stay at your place or sleep over night?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No.

MR KUNY: Were you at all familiar with the background of any of these youths, where they come from, where their parents were, whether they were attending school and so forth?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I wasn't. I didn't have personal and individual knowledge of them, but all those who came to seek specific help from me, I gave them.

MR KUNY: Would it be correct to say and I want to refer specifically to this time in December and January, December 1988 and January 1989.

Would it be correct to say that you at that stage were the head of the household?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have always been the head of that household. And I still am.

MR KUNY: Well, normally speaking, is it not correct that the male in the family, the man is the head of the family, but at that stage you were the head of that household?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You seriously wouldn't make that sort of statement to me.

MR KUNY: I am merely asking you a question.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have lived all my life without that head of a family.

MR KUNY: Well, now as the head of the family, you were responsible for keeping order in the household?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I have always been head of my family.

MR KUNY: Did you delegate that function of keeping order in the household to anyone or did you undertake that responsibility personally?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: How does a head of a family delegate?

MR KUNY: Well, we know that there were quite a number of people staying at your house, in particular Mr Jerry Richardson moved to your house from the 9th of November 1988?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was a specific case. Jerry Richardson's house had been involved in a shoot-out with the police. And when he came out of prison, he had nowhere to stay and he came over. Not that he was part and parcel of the youths who came to seek refuge with me.

MR KUNY: Yes, well, you did describe him in your evidence given at your trial, that he was the oldest person there?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, with the boys, he was not living in the house, he was with the boys at the back.

MR KUNY: And he was also the coach?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he had been the coach those years when they had their Football team.

MR KUNY: Would it be correct to say that he played a more prominent role amongst the boys being the oldest and being the coach?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I would imagine so, he was their coach. I don't know what other roles he played.

MR KUNY: But you didn't for example delegate functions of keeping the order in the household to him, you still maintained that function yourself?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, not at all, I maintained that function myself.

MR KUNY: Now, Madam, I want to take you briefly through the chronology of the events surrounding the transferral of the boys from the manse to your house and I am going to just very briefly sketch the facts as I understand them. Both given in these proceedings given by the witnesses and at your trial.

And if I may, more pertinently refer to your evidence given at your trial where you were charged with Ms Falati.

Ms Falati came to see you, and this was your evidence at the trial, please correct me if you disagree in any way with that, she came to see you on the afternoon of the 29th of December 1988?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: She came to see me on that date, exactly what time, I am not sure.

MR KUNY: And you asked Ms Falati to bring the youngster concerned, she had made a report to you, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It may be correct. As I stated earlier I did not remember whether she came with Cebekhulu or whether I said she must go and fetch him.

MR KUNY: And Ms Falati then went and fetched the youth concerned?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That may be correct.

MR KUNY: And what do you mean that may be correct? Why do you say may?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Because I have just stated, I don't remember whether she came with him or whether I said she must go and fetch him.

MR KUNY: Well, you gave that evidence in the trial, we can refer to the record of those proceedings.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible, that is why I say it is possible.

MR KUNY: And you said that when Mr Cebekhulu was brought, he was shocked, he found it difficult to speak to you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was?

MR KUNY: You were shocked at his condition and that he found it difficult to speak to you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, his state of mind, he was very, very confused.

MR KUNY: You were obviously as has already been alluded to in the cross-examination, already, you were very concerned about his condition?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KUNY: And you then took the boy off to see Dr Asvat?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: Now, your evidence at the trial was that you made arrangements with Motau to drive you to Brandfort that evening?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KUNY: You also stated at that stage that you had planned to return on the 31st of December so that you could spend new year's eve with your family?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR KUNY: Do you recall that evidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR KUNY: And you say in your evidence at your trial, that you left for Brandfort at between 18h30 and 19h00?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is possible, it is a long time ago.

MR KUNY: You won't dispute that evidence that you gave?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I wouldn't.

MR KUNY: And you say that you got back to Johannesburg on the 31st of December, between 18h30 and 19h00?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: Now, Madam, I want to just then deal with what happened when you came back. In fact you gave evidence at your trial that you weren't feeling well that day when you returned? Do you recall that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I seem to recall that?

MR KUNY: And you said that when you had returned, Ms Falati had said something like she was sorry, she had brought some children there and she hoped that you would not mind, do you recall saying that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I recall that.

MR KUNY: Do you recall Ms Falati actually saying that to you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I recall words to that effect, it is a long time ago.

MR KUNY: Now, you then gave evidence that because you were not feeling well, you went to bed?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible, yes.

MR KUNY: Now, what I would like to know from you is were you not at that stage perturbed that Ms Falati had said to you that she had brought similar victims of Paul Verryn to stay at your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't recollect being perturbed at all.

MR KUNY: Well, let me just put this to you. You said in your evidence that she rattled something like she had brought similar victims of Paul Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: That those were the terms that she used?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible that that happened.

MR KUNY: Well, that was your evidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: Now, Madam, we have a situation here where before you leave you have a very disturbing incident of a young boy who is brought to you who is highly confused, he is in such a state that you see it fit to take him immediately to a Doctor.

When you come back from Brandfort, you are confronted with a situation where some further young boys have been brought, relating to similar allegations, did that not strike you as something to be concerned about?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My understanding at the time was that it was Cebekhulu who needed medical attention because he was becoming a threat to himself and a threat to Rev Paul Verryn. I didn't understand the other children to have similar problems.

MR KUNY: No, your evidence was that Ms Falati had said to you that she had brought similar victims of Paul Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is what I mean. I didn't understand them to be in that confused state of mind, they were a threat to Rev Paul Verryn and they were a threat to themselves.

MR KUNY: What condition were those boys in when they were brought? The boys that you were told about after your return from Brandfort?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't know what state they were in on their arrival, but when I did see them later on, they were normal to me.

MR KUNY: Did you go and speak to these boys to find out what was going on?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Did I go to find out? No. As it has been stated there, I went to bed.

MR KUNY: Well, let 's take for example, the following day, let's assume you are tired from the journey, you go to bed. Let's talk about the following day, the 1st of January now.

You have been presented with these statements about similar victims, did you go and find out what was going on?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't actually recall the events of those days. I don't remember precisely when I saw them, but I did see them, and they were brought into the house.

MR KUNY: Who was brought into the house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think the boys did come into the house at a certain point. I don't remember how many days after they had been placed there.

MR KUNY: And which boys would you then be referring to now in your evidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I would be referring to Mono and who was the other one by the way?

MR KUNY: Mekgwe?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I think so.

MR KUNY: Kenny Kgase?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I don't recall seeing Kenny Kgase, I am just not sure who was where at that point.

MR KUNY: But you remember at least two boys being brought into your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I do remember. Exactly which names I don't really remember.

MR KUNY: And did you question them as to why they had come to your house and under which circumstances?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had them brought into the house. I think the record would remind me. I don't remember exactly when and why, but I also arranged with my daughter to go and do some shopping for them because I was made to understand that they didn't have their clothes with the.

MR KUNY: Did you for example question the boys or look at them to see whether they had suffered any assault?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I had no reason to think so, I didn't question them, no.

MR KUNY: So they appeared to be ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They were quite normal.

MR KUNY: There were no apparent signs of assaults?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, when I saw them, there was no sign of any assault.

MR KUNY: And what about Stompie, was he not brought into your house at that stage?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I never saw Stompie.

MR KUNY: You never saw Stompie at all, the day after you returned?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I never saw Stompie.

MR KUNY: Are you sure about that Mrs Mandela?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am absolutely sure, I think.

MR KUNY: That is very strange, that is very strange, because you said at your trial, in the proceedings at your trial that you had seen Stompie on the following day after your return from Brandfort. Would you like me to read ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think if you read on you would see something like he was outside, near a tap and when I subsequently enquired who that child they were talking about, was, I was reminded he had been outside near a tap.

But Stompie never came inside my house.

MR KUNY: Did you see Stompie outside?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think that is possible, I cannot recollect properly, because I do not know that child ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, that is in ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... face to face.

MR KUNY: That is inconsistent with the evidence, with the statement you have just made, but I will, I will not take that any further. Now, on your return, you said that no one informed you that anyone had been seriously injured at the back of the house. Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was correct.

MR KUNY: And you also made mention of the fact that you went to a funeral on the fourth of January. Do you recall that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible, ja.

MR KUNY: And you said that when you went to the funeral there was no indication that any of the people on the bus were there against their will?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is true.

MR KUNY: And you did not notice anyone had been injured?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not.

MR KUNY: Now, would it be correct, then, and your evidence at your trial seems to bear this out, that members of the

 

Crisis Committee came to you in this, in about the second week of January?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible, you heard my explanation about the Crisis Committee. Community leaders came home.

MR KUNY: And they then made the allegations that there had been a kidnapping and serious assaults?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: And can I take it this was the first time that you heard of such allegations?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That may be correct. As I said, I cannot place the dates exactly.

MR KUNY: Well, you say in your evidence at the trial that you were outraged by the suggestion.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, because I disbelieved ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: By the allegations, I beg your pardon?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I did disbelieve it at that stage.

MR KUNY: Now, I want you to try and remember, at that stage when the Crisis Committee had come to you and presented these allegations, can you recall whether anyone previously had made such similar allegations or whether there had been any rumours to that effect?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Allegations of?

MR KUNY: Of a kidnapping and an assault.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, no. Prior to that there had been no such allegations ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: So, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... to my recollection.

MR KUNY: Now, we can accept then that the Crisis Committee, that was the first time these were presented to you and that would explain your feeling of outrage?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Ja, no, that is possible.

MR KUNY: Now, Madam, what are we to understand by this statement that "you were outraged". Were you outraged that such allegations could have been made or were you outraged that boys on your property may have been guilty of perpetrating such an act?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Both.

MR KUNY: Was the allegation of an assault and a kidnapping made only about you or was it made about the boys who were staying on your property?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I do not recollect the details, but I think it was referred to the boys.

MR KUNY: Now, you say you think it referred to the boys?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I think at that stage it referred to the boys.

MR KUNY: And to yourself personally?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not recollect those allegations at that stage.

MR KUNY: Well, can we not assume that if you were personally implicated in a kidnapping and assault, this is something you would have remembered, surely?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had not been involved at that stage, through the perceptions of the time, ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... in any particular assaults or abductions.

MR KUNY: No, my question to you is, were you personally implicated in the kidnapping and assault? Was the allegation made you participated in the kidnapping and assault or was it that the boys on your property ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was made about the boys ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: So, there ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... at that stage. If you are referring to the discussion between ourselves and the community leaders, they made reference to the boys only at that stage.

MR KUNY: So, at that stage there was no specific allegation that you, personally, had participated in a kidnapping and assault?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not that I recollect.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kuny.

MR KUNY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not going to stop you, but I want to have an indication of how much more you have.

MR KUNY: Mr Chairperson, I would ask for a bit of latitude in this regard. I am only going to deal with this one issue, I do not propose to deal with any other aspect in ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KUNY: ... particular with this.

CHAIRPERSON: But it depends on how long ... (intervention). MR KUNY: Well, I ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ... given that you have got all your other colleagues. I mean, I ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: I accept that, but I would like to be able to just deal with the chronology and sequence of events surrounding the ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No, you are not answering my question.

MR KUNY: What is the question, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to know how much more time you think you require and how much, then I can decide how much I am able to let you have.

MR KUNY: Well, if I said half a hour, would that ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No.

MR KUNY: ... that be in order?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no. I mean I have, you have already. had (...indistinct) ten, another ten.

MR KUNY: I will do my best, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR KUNY: Now, your evidence at the trial was, you were infuriated and you said that if the allegations had meant to refer to the children, who had been brought by Falati, then the Crisis Committee was free to go to the back rooms and speak to them directly. Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible, yes.

MR KUNY: Well, that was your evidence.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: You will not dispute that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I would not.

MR KUNY: But you say in your evidence that they did not go that day in your presence to see the youths.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not recollect that.

MR KUNY: Do you recall the evidence of the Crisis Committee that they were not, that they were not granted immediate access to the youths by yourself?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard that evidence here.

MR KUNY: Do you have any difficulty with that evidence?

MR SEMENYA: Well, chairperson my recollection is I even pertinently said, if you say "before we gained access" and I think it was Minister Mufamadi who says, maybe he did not mean that they were refused access before.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think I will come in here. What is the point that you want to make Mr Kuny?

MR KUNY: The point is that the Crisis Committee gave the impression, in their evidence, that they were not granted immediate access to the youths.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Semenya is right in the intervention that he made and that there was that response, but ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ... would you put a version or to the witness?

MR KUNY: Yes. Well, I am not going to take that any further, but is it not correct that at that stage when these allegations were presented to you, Mrs Mandela, that you had said you had decided not to go and speak to the youths or have anything further to do with them?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not understand your question. Can you repeat it, Sir?

MR KUNY: Your evidence at the trial was that when these allegations were presented to you, you decided that you would not go, you would not have anything further to do with the youths. You were not going to see them, you did not want to be, you did not want it to be said that you were influencing them in any way. Is that not correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I think that you are quoting that out of context. I think it may have been something to the effect that the community leaders could see the children in my absence so that it must not be thought I was influencing them. I think you are quoting that out of context.

MR KUNY: Well, let me quote to you what you said at your trial. You said,

"The allegations, that I told the Crisis Committee that in the light of what they had alleged, I would have no contact whatsoever with them and that they were free to have access to those children so that they should not charge us as having influenced them, because of the seriousness of the allegations.".

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, it is possible that day that they could go and have access to them.

MR KUNY: Now, why did you, why did you decide at that stage that you would have no contact with the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think it was because of the nature of the allegations that were put across to me. I do not know precisely what was, I do not remember what was precisely said.

MR KUNY: Well, let us look at that for a moment, Mrs Mandela. You say in your evidence now that the allegation had not been made against you personally. Is that not correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I said, to me recollection, yes.

MR KUNY: Yes, you, at the trial we know the evidence was that you had an alibi regarding the kidnapping and assault of the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: And you further said in evidence at the trial, that your conscience was clear. Do you recall that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: Now, if that is the case, why was, why did you decide at that stage that you would have no contact with the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That may have been as a result of the discussions between myself and some of the community leaders. I think Reverend Chikane stated here that, for instance, we had a difficult meeting which lasted five hours. It could have been, it is possible that it was as a result of those discussions ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: No.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... details of which I cannot recall.

MR KUNY: Mrs Mandela, we talking about the first occasion when the Crisis Committee came to you and made these shocking allegations.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible.

MR KUNY: Now, let me ask you, at that stage you were not aware of any assaults having been committed on the boys. Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I do not remember what allegations were put across by the community leaders at that stage.

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If I remember the contents, then I would be able to answer you.

MR KUNY: No, no, I am afraid, Mrs Mandela, it is not as easy as that. The allegations that were made were that you, there had been a kidnapping and serious assaults.

MR SEMENYA: But, Chairperson, again, I do not want to interrupt my learned colleague. Part of the allegations were that they are held against their will by the witness. At least let us put the entire context to the witness to respond.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, maybe make the total ... (intervention). MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ... allegations.

MR KUNY: ... it is very straight forward, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KUNY: The question is why did you decide at that stage that you would have no further contact with the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think the answer has just been provided. It is possible, it is when those allegations were made, that they were being held by me, who was head of the family, that they were being held ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: At that stage ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... against their will.

MR KUNY: At that stage you were not aware of any assault being committed on these boys. Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not sure whether the Crisis Committee or the community leaders stated those first that day, at that stage.

MR KUNY: Well, you said, you said in your evidence at the trial that the, when the Crisis Committee came they alleged that assaults were serious.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible.

MR KUNY: And there was an allegation of the abduction of the boys.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is why I am saying I am not sure at what stage I became aware.

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not sure of the exact discussions, exactly which dates, those discussions took place.

MR KUNY: Would it not have been the simplest thing to say to the Crisis Committee I am not aware of such assaults, let us go and see the boys, in my presence you can confirm for yourself whether there has been an abduction or, and an assault.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not remember the exact facts, but as you yourself have stated, I said they must go and see the boys in my absence.

MR KUNY: Now, Ms Mandela, you said after that that you had spoken, you had then asked Richardson what had happened. Do you recall that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is possible.

MR KUNY: And he had said that there was clapping or slapping when these children first came.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible.

MR KUNY: Now, I just very briefly want to deal with your evidence in this regard that you gave at the trial. Did you ask Jerry Richardson how, what the circumstances were in which there had been an assault of these youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not recollect those details. If I had had the opportunity of refreshing my mind through that court record, I would have been able to answer you outright.

MR KUNY: You see, Mrs Mandela, you were asked at the trial,

"Did you ask Richardson what he knew about the circumstances of the youngsters being taken away from the manse?".

I do not know if you recall that. You were asked by your counsel, Advocate Bizos.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, it is possible, counsel put those questions across, as I say I have not, I did not have an opportunity of refreshing my mind ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Ja.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... with the court proceedings of the day. I would not remember exact ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... details and paragraphs of what happened.

MR KUNY: I am putting to you what was asked.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: And your answer was,

"I did not discuss that with him, because Xoliswa had told me that she asked him to look after the children."

That was your answer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible, yes.

MR KUNY: Now, why did you not discuss with Mr Richardson these allegations that these boys had been abducted.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I may have disbelieved at that stage.

MR KUNY: But Mr Richardson has now actually admitted having perpetrated an assault on these young boys. Surely, the most obvious thing for you to have done would have been to have asked the circumstances of the removal of these boys.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Is there evidence that that day he had admitted to that, according to that court record you have in front of you?

MR KUNY: Yes. There is evidence that you went ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That day?

MR KUNY: ... to Mr Richardson. Let us not quarrel about days or times. Let us just look at the facts as they stand on the record.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not quarrelling with you, Sir. I am merely trying to clear ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, I am ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... what you are asking me.

MR KUNY: Well, you had been presented with allegations of an assault.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: And a kidnapping.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes. Which I disbelieved at that stage.

MR KUNY: Well, but that allegation had subsequently been confirmed by Mr Richardson, that ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: ... there had been an assault.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, when he was on trial, he confirmed.

MR KUNY: But you did not discuss with him the circumstances in which those boys had been taken from the manse?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not think there was need at that stage, because there was no suggestion to me, besides the fact that I disbelieved ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Now, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... that they had been forcibly removed.

MR KUNY: I will not deal with that any further. Now, you were then asked,

"Did you have any reason to believe that any force had been used to take the children away from the manse?".

That was a question put to you by your counsel.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Which is why I responded in that manner that I did not believe at ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Indeed so.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... that stage.

MR KUNY: You actually said that you did not have any reason. Now, can you tell the Commission why you held that belief?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Because I had been assured by Falati that the children or rather these youths, had been picked up from the manse and that they had come with her willingly.

MR KUNY: Now, you were then asked about whether you believed the allegations made in regard to the other young boys, were true or false and you said,

"I had no reason to believe that the allegations were not false in relation to the others."

Do you recall saying that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not clear of your question.

MR KUNY: You were asked at your trial whether you had any reason to believe whether the allegations directed, not to you, but to the other boys at your house, were true or false and you ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I may have said something like that ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I say, I mean, I, Mr Kuny, I really have tried to be generous. I am going to give you two more minutes. I really have to, because we have, you have got all these other people.

MR KUNY: Now, you said if you did not know the allegations, if you believed that they might have been true in the allegations against the other boys at the manse, why did you not take further steps to find out what had happened to these young boys?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There were no similar allegations such as those which were brought to my attention over Cebekhulu.

MR KUNY: You did not take steps to find out exactly what had happened to these young boys?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: But I, you have just stated, Sir, that I enquired from Richardson ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: No.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... what had happened.

MR KUNY: And Richardson ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: And I had no reason to disbelieve Richardson, because he was more senior.

MR KUNY: No, but Richardson had said there was an assault. Surely this is an indication ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He had said ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: ... that there may have been truth in the allegations, Mrs Mandela.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He had said that they were clapping and ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... he did not report anything serious to me and I believed that if there had been anything serious Falati would have reported to me.

MR KUNY: A clapping, Mrs Mandela, in my language, is an assault, but I will not take that any further. Now, I want to ask you about the medical record that was presented to you. When you were presented the medical record by Mr Vally, it was indicated on that medical record that you had been to see Dr Asvat with Mr Cebekhulu on the 30th of December 1988 and you said you did not dispute that. You said that it could be true.

MR SEMENYA: Now, now, Chairperson, I think ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, you are distorting.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon. Chairperson, I think my learned colleague would want to be careful. What was put was that according to the medical card of Cebekhulu, he would have been at the doctor on the 30th. It was never said she had brought Cebekhulu to the surgery on the 30th.

MR KUNY: With due respect, that is not my understanding of the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just go ahead, yes.

MR KUNY: When the medical card was presented to you which indicated that Cebekhulu had been brought to the surgery on the 30th of December you did not dispute that that record was, in fact, correct. Is that not so?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not dispute the writing and the record on the card, but I took Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat on the 29th. What happened, how they do their administration is not really my concern.

MR KUNY: Well, you see there is a problem with this, because if, in fact, that record is correct, Madam, then your alibi is false. Is that not so?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is ludicrous Mr Chairman. I took Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat on the 29th.

MR KUNY: Can I just ask, ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MR KUNY: ... at your trial ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, with respect, the height of the evidence about the record does not go as far as to say Cebekhulu on that day was brought by client, it only says Cebekhulu on that particular day, the name of the patient is Cebekhulu, the date on it is the 30th. The one inference we are able to make is that Cebekhulu was at the surgery on that day. The next inference, which is not possible and which is my, what my learned colleague is attempting to do, is to say Cebekhulu was brought by client. I do not see how that flows from the card.

MR KUNY: Mr Chairperson, I am really unable to deal with this objection in the time which you have allotted me. I believe the evidence speaks for itself. I think that my learned friend is attempting to object to very pertinent cross-examination and I am in a situation where I cannot deal with the objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just find out whether, in fact, Mr Cebekhulu went twice ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ... to the doctor. Yes.

MR KUNY: I think that this, I think that properly speaking Mrs Mandela should deal with that evidence. Did ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I took Cebekhulu, Mr Chairman, once to Dr Asvat, on the 29th. Whether he went again on the 30th I, is not known to me.

MR KUNY: Mr Chairperson, may I take this issue up with Mrs Mandela?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KUNY: Well, are you saying then that if the date on that card is correct, the 30th of December, then, in fact, Mr Cebekhulu must have been taken back the following day?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not saying anything of the sort, Sir.

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am saying I took Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Ja.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... on the 29th.

MR KUNY: Are you disputing, then, the date as it stands on the medical record?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have no knowledge of the date of the 20th, ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: You see ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... of the 30th on that card. I am saying I took Cebekhulu ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Can ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... to Dr Asvat on the 29th and I am sure you can find that in the court record.

MR KUNY: You see, what is startlingly mysterious and strange about that medical card, is that you say in your evidence when Mr Cebekhulu presented himself to you he was mentally confused. Is that not correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was part of the problem, yes.

MR KUNY: Yes, that is an observation which you made?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Ja.

MR KUNY: Now, if you are suggesting that he went back the following day, on the 30th, without you then it is quite remarkable that the medical card, on the medical card is made an observation that the patient there was mentally confused, cries insomnia.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I made no such observation to the effect that he went twice. I merely said I took him to Dr Asvat on the 29th and the question was put to me, well, you are not listening.

MR KUNY: And there is another ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, wait now, I think, I mean, that line of questioning can be taken up possibly by the panel, because you really have gone way beyond ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, ...

CHAIRPERSON: ... the ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: With respect, Mr Chairperson, I, if I may be just given a little bit more time.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I do not, I mean, I have told you the constraints under which we are operating.

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I give you, no, no, one last minute, one minute and see, if you cannot make it, tough luck.

MR KUNY: You see, Mrs Mandela, the record shows that sedative, a sedative hypnotic drug was prescribed on the 30th of December. That is consistent with the medication which was, which with, sedative medication which was prescribed on your visit, on the 29th of December. Would you not agree with me as far as that is concerned?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: With great respect, Sir, ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Ja.

 

 

 

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... I can only tell you about the events of the 29th.

MR KUNY: Well, Mrs Mandela, I put it to you, if I may just, one aspect, do you intend to call witnesses who will corroborate the fact that you were in Brandfort on the 29th to the 31st of December in these proceedings?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not know I am on trial in these proceedings, Mr Chairman.

MR KUNY: You did ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: And I did not know I have come here for your inquisition.

MR KUNY: You did not consider it necessary to discuss this with your counsel that these witnesses should perhaps be made available to the TRC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have no idea what atrocities are supposed to have been committed by my taking Cebekhulu on the 29th ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: You see ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... to the doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Let that be your last question.

MR KUNY: If I may just put one last submission, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KUNY: You see, what I want to put to you, Mrs Mandela, is that if you look at the evidence that is presented before this Commission, that the truth, in your hands, is a, is putty which you can simply mould ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Can we ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: ... to suit your own ends.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Chairman, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is a preposterous statement. I beg of you not to talk to me like that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, wait a bit, order please. I think, I mean, that the legal representative can put a proposition and I think, I mean, that you can dispute that fact. Though, again, one has to keep saying that it is probably better in a charge, sort of, environment to look for less ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KUNY: Mr Chairperson, I am merely doing my duty to my client.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: So am I.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Wait a little, I just, some of the families who have been involved in some of the matters that have been subjects here are in, have been in the audience and I do not think that I have properly recognised them and I would say, because they are going to be going away, there are some of them here. Mrs Sepei, could you please come up here, (... indistinct) and others. Where is Mrs Sepei? Order please. You want to come, and I think, I mean, Paul, I thought I saw Bishop. Well, I am going to be addressing you, yes. Order please.

Usually, order please, usually in our victim hearings when the victims or survivors come into the hall which is the venue of the hearing, as an expression of our solidarity, as an expression of our respect for people who have suffered, whatever or whoever caused that suffered, we all stand and we usually have done that and we want to do this on and I just want to say that on behalf of our country, we hope that the pain and anguish of so many will be something that goes towards the healing of our land. We want them to know our very deepest sympathies for them for what they have suffered and we thank them and hope that they will have it in their hearts to reach out to those who may have caused them pain, to reach out in order for our land to be healed. Thank you very much.

Order please. Please, please, please do not have your press interview here now, please. Thank you very much. Mr Makanjee.

MR MAKANJEE: I am Sanjay Makanjee ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Can you help us, because we really are pressed for time and the legal people are looking daggers at me and I am trying to be, yes, thank you very much.

MR MAKANJEE: I am acting on behalf of Mr Mekgwe, Mr Mono and Mr Ikaneng. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, in the trial in which you were charged with kidnapping and assault your defence was that you were in Brandfort at the time of the alleged incident. Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you explain, then, why Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe and Kenneth Kgase have given evidence that you participated in the assaults on them?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I cannot explain, save to say that Mekgwe tried to explain on this forum that he was told that he must not make a statement different from the one he had made at the trial. You and I know that the trials of those days were riddled with statements, people were sometimes forced to make, depending entirely on what case it was, who was being charged.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you. Can you also explain why Katiza Cebekhulu, John Morgan, Jerry Richardson and Xoliswa Falati have also stated that you were there and assaulted the young men?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I cannot explain, save to give the same explanation, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you explain why Mr Dempsey gave evidence at this hearing that the police also knew that you were not in Brandfort at the time that you said you were and ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, ... (intervention).

MR MAKANJEE: ... a fact, sorry Ma'am, a fact that your counsel did not dispute?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I am not aware of that, but I am aware of the fact that the police would have tried to extract a different version from mine for the obvious reasons.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, maybe my ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not recollect that.

MR SEMENYA: ... my understanding of Afrikaans is not good and I probably did not have my headsets on, but I do not seem to recall Dempsey saying the police knew that client was not in Brandfort.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you help us, ja?

MR PIGOU: My understanding of the evidence from Senior Superintendent Dempsey was that they had a number of statements from people from, including, I believe, one Shakes, Mr Johannes Tau, that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not in Brandfort on the day in question. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: But, I mean, that was not the same thing as saying they knew.

MR MAKANJEE: My apologies, Mr Chairman. Ma'am, so am I correct, then, in saying that you cannot offer any explanation as to why all these people that I have named to you, have made this allegation?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I have sat here, Sir, for almost two weeks now, listening to fabrications about myself ... (intervention).

MR MAKANJEE: Are you, perhaps, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... from witnesses and saying the most ridiculous assertions about me.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay. Let me go on, Ma'am. You suggested in your evidence in-chief today that it would have been quite easy for the young men, who were allegedly kidnapped, to leave your Diepkloof property. Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, the surroundings are such that anyone can leave as they please.

MR MAKANJEE: Would you not think that the men, having been seriously assaulted by members of the football club, having witnessed a near fatal assault of Stompie, that they were scared, afraid of, for their lives?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I honestly have no idea. As I say, my belief, if you saw the surroundings in my house, are that anyone can leave as they please.

MR MAKANJEE: You further stated that there is no need for you to get the versions of Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe and Kenneth Kgase with regard to the, their abduction, in your evidence in-chief. Is that correct?]

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I believed so at the time.

MR MAKANJEE: You also, then, said that you got visits on various occasions by various church leaders who came to express their concern about these young men who were at your place. Is that ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: ... correct? Did this not alert you to any possible problems that may have been taking place and did that not, then, make you want to question the boys or the young men to find out how they were?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is why I have been reminded here that I did enquire from Richardson. I disbelieved at that stage.

MR MAKANJEE: My question was not whether you enquired from Richardson, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, it is whether you enquired from the boys or the young men themselves?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I did not ... (intervention).

MR MAKANJEE: Even after you ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... enquire from the boys themselves. I enquired from Richardson.

MR MAKANJEE: This is even after the church leaders came on various occasions to express their fears and concerns about these young men?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: When did you see the youths, when did you first see the young men when you returned from Brandfort?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I would need to be reminded. I did see them quite a few days thereafter.

MR MAKANJEE: You said that you did not know, notice any injuries on them. Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not to my memory, I did not.

MR MAKANJEE: Did you notice any injuries on Kenneth Kgase?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I do not recollect that.

MR MAKANJEE: You are aware that Mr Kgase escaped from your house on the seventh of January 1989?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I consequently learned so.

MR MAKANJEE: You are also aware from the evidence at your trial, that he was taken to Dr Martin Connel. Is this ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, so I ... (intervention).

MR MAKANJEE: ... correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... understood.

MR MAKANJEE: And I am sure you must also be aware that Dr Connel's evidence describes serious injuries which were clearly visible to Mr Kgase's face and body?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard that evidence at the trial. MR MAKANJEE: Can you explain why you did not notice these injuries?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I heard that evidence at the trial. I did not notice any injuries, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: You said in your evidence that the first time you became aware that the men abducted from the manse were being held against their will, was when you heard rumours. Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Was when I heard?

MR MAKANJEE: The rumours, rumours.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, yes.

MR MAKANJEE: When did you first hear these rumours?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think when the first church leaders or community leaders came to express their concerns.

MR MAKANJEE: And at that stage you still did not see fit to actually question the men, whether they wanted to be there or not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, as it was stated here, I think it was round about the fourth when I was visited by the community leaders.

MR MAKANJEE: Would this not have been the simplest way to deal with this problem?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I dealt with it by enquiring from Richardson who was more senior on the premises.

MR MAKANJEE: According to your evidence you released the men after meeting Dr Motlana. Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: Now, Dr Motlana's evidence was that you released the men ten days after your visit?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It must have been when he himself came to collect them.

MR MAKANJEE: Are you saying that Dr Motlana was mistaken in what he testified regarding the facts surrounding the release of the boys?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not really ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... sure of the exact ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... date, Sir.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, my recollection of the evidence by Dr Motlana is that he recalls that he went to his house and his wife then advised him about certain children that had come there, but he himself remembers taking them there, it was ten days thereafter. So, we do not know when these children would have gone to Mr Motlana's house and seen Mr Motlana's wife.

MR MAKANJEE: Ma'am let me put ... (intervention).

DR RANDERA: Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: I just want, I think my recollection is that Dr Motlana said that he actually went to the house, did not ask to see the children, was told that the children were there and that ten days later. So, he did actually go to the house and I agree with you that he did not see the children at his house, but there was a ten day intervening period.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you are.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chair. Now that we have clarified that aspect, I just want to put it to you that the reason for the boys being or the young men being released ten days after Dr Motlana's visit is that you waited for the injuries which they sustained, and I will read out the injuries for your own information,

"On Mr Mekgwe there weretramtrack abrasions, bruising

of the ribs, tram-track abrasions on his back and a laceration on his forehead and on Mr Mono there were healing tram-track abrasions, all characterised by new, slightly pinkish scar tissue, circular healing scars, dorsal aspect of left wrist and ...",

there were various injuries, in other words, to them. What I am putting to you is that you released the boys ten days after the visit by Dr Motlana, because you wanted them to have sufficient time to let the injuries heal.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not even Dr Motlana led evidence to the effect that I withheld the children from him deliberately.

MR MAKANJEE: I ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He himself said he did not ask to see them and that is not true. If I had not seen the injuries, why would I wait for injuries to heal before he picked up the children if I had not seen them?

MR MAKANJEE: So, I, okay, let us just go on to Mr Ikaneng. I noticed that in your evidence today you chose not to deal with the evidence of Mr Ikaneng, that you assaulted him in your office in October 1988. May I assume that the reason for you not discussing this is that you have admitted to committing this assault?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, that is absolute nonsense, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: So, why ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not assault Ikaneng and it is a ridiculous suggestion that I would have to assault him personally when evidence was being led here that I brewed gangsters in the house.

MR MAKANJEE: My question, then, to you is why at the time when you were discussing Mr Ikaneng, did you not deny the allegation that you had assaulted in October of 1988?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, first of all, if you can leave the, maybe push it away, because I notice you, when you want to emphasise a point, you bump.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is the Richardson phobia, he was doing it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am sorry, I lost your question.

MR MAKANJEE: Sure.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think it was about Ikaneng.

MR MAKANJEE: Yes, my question to you was you are represented by counsel, did you not discuss that aspect of Mr Ikaneng's evidence with regard to your being led on that aspect, would you or not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I merely responded to questions that were put across by my counsel. I have no problem at all in answering that if you should wish to ask a question. (end of side 4A).

MR MAKANJEE: Okay, can you tell me why or do you know of any reason that he would lie about the assaults on him by yourself?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If you knew township life, it did not matter who I was, I would not dare attempt to assault a young man of that age.

MR MAKANJEE: So, you cannot put forward a reason for why he would make this allegation? Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is a lie.

MR MAKANJEE: So, Mr Ikaneng, Mr Mekgwe, Mr Mono, Mr Dempsey, Mr Kgase, Mr Morgan, Mr Richardson, Ms Falati have all conspired to lie and implicate you. Is that what I am understanding you to mean?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They have lied, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They would know the reasons why.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you tell us the reasons why, Ma'am?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have just said they would know the reasons why.

MR MAKANJEE: I just want to ask one more question concerning your statements earlier in your evidence in-chief that guerrillas were sent to Mr Richardson's house, because your house was like a police station and it was unsafe. Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: But, Ma'am, maybe I should point out this contradiction then. You stated that the boys who were seeking at your house were running away from the security branch. Surely, that is as equal a danger as having guerrillas in your house.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If you lived under those times, I was not the only one who was performing that task of looking after children who were running away from the system.

MR MAKANJEE: Yes, Ma'am, but my question is your reason for sending the guerrillas to Mr Richardson's house was that your house was not safe.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They were trained guerrillas, these were youths just running away from the system in the township and they decided to seek refuge in the same manner they sought refuge at Paul Verryn's residence.

MR MAKANJEE: But, Ma'am, by implication they are trained guerrillas, they would be safer than the youths who were running from the security branch at your house.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not even you believe in that logic.

MR MAKANJEE: I do.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You would not and you are so South African, I can see you would not.

DR BORAINE: How are we getting on there? Are you moving towards the end?

MR MAKANJEE: I have nothing further.

DR BORAINE: Nothing further, thank you very much.

MR JORDI: My name is Peter Jordi, I appear for the Sono family, the Shabalala family and the Chili family. Madam, your attorney has handed out this letter dated the 24th of May 1995 and I, they did not comment on its contents adversely when they did so. So, I take it you accept its contents. Is that correct? This letter addressed to the Commissioner of Police?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR JORDI: So you accept its contents?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: And I note there that they say that they were acting according to their instructions. They say,

"We act on behalf of Mrs Mandela according to our instructions...",

etcetera, etcetera. So, they were acting on your instructions when they wrote this letter?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, Sir.

MR JORDI: Right. You have been seen in public dressed in a camouflage uniform. Am I right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR JORDI: Right and that uniform was the uniform of Umkhonto weSizwe, the armed wing of the African National Congress?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR JORDI: So, you were wearing the uniform of an Umkhonto weSizwe soldier? Is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct, yes.

MR JORDI: Right. During, we all know that you have played a prominent role in the anti-apartheid struggle and I am sure that during the dark days of apartheid, perhaps, even after the unbanning of the ANC, there must have been times when you thought that you were at risk of being killed during the course of the struggle and I am sure that you accepted that risk as just something to bear, a petty burden to bear given your prominent role in the struggle. Is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That risk exists to this day. That is why there was a bomb scare yesterday.

MR JORDI: But you were quite willing to bear the risk of dying during the course of the struggle?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: All of us.

MR JORDI: All of, yes, all of the people ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: All those who fought for liberation.

MR JORDI: That is right, but you, I am asking not about other people and how they felt, I am asking about your particular feelings. You must have felt prepared to die for the struggle?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I was one of those who were prepared to die for the struggle.

MR JORDI: Quite prepared to put your life on the line for the struggle. Is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not in an irresponsible manner.

MR JORDI: No, obviously, you do not want to just throw your life away?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: By that ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: No soldier wants to throw his or her life away ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, well, I ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: ... during the course of a struggle.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, Sir. I do not really understand your line of questioning, yes.

MR JORDI: Ja, but, all right.

DR BORAINE: I think you have made the point Mr Jordi. Go ahead.

MR JORDI: And you said during the Section 29 inquiry that you were a member of Umkhonto weSizwe during the period under discussion. In other words, the period particularly of 1988 and 1989. Am I right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR JORDI: So, you were a member of the underground army of the African National Congress, you have worn the uniform of an African National Congress solider, an Umkhonto weSizwe soldier, and you were prepared to die for the struggle? Now, I put it to you that someone who is prepared to die, someone who is a soldier, someone who is involved in the underground war is not going to throw their life away lightly and that they are prepared to kill as well as to die. Am I right? What do you say about that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not understand what you are saying.

MR JORDI: So, as a soldier, who was prepared to die, you were not prepared to kill? Were you prepared to kill during the course of the struggle, you were a soldier?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not prepared to kill.

MR JORDI: A soldier who is not ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Really.

MR JORDI: ... prepared to kill. All right, well, I will ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was an operative ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: ... leave that issue.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... of MK.

MR JORDI: You wore the uniform, you were prepared ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was an ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: ... to die.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... operative of MK. I did not go to Lusaka, to Angola to go and train, I was an operative on the ground ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: I do not think ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... underground.

MR JORDI: ... I can take this issue further with you at the moment. I note, further, that you have said already in your evidence today that you had complete confidence in Jerry Richardson up until yesterday when he himself admitted that he was a police informer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I had no reason to believe the stories I saw ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: All right.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... because worse stories had been written about me.

MR JORDI: So, you agree you said that you had complete confidence ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had confidence in Jerry Richardson until he sat here and confessed to being a spy and confessed to six murders.

MR JORDI: Right. When did you know that he had handed in his amnesty application and that in his amnesty application he claimed that he had murdered Lolo Sono, Sibuniso Shabalala, Kuki Zwane, who else, Stompie Sepei and various other people?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think I heard in the in-camera hearing.

MR JORDI: In the in-camera hearing. So, that must have been in about September 1997? When was the in-camera hearing? Is that right?

DR BORAINE: That is right.

MR JORDI: So, in September 1997, at the very latest, you knew that he had admitted or claimed to have performed these murders?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Ja, so I heard.

MR JORDI: And you still had confidence in him until yesterday?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, that was a matter of expressing oneself in the sense that then it was an in-camera hearing, Jerry Richardson was not here, I myself had been associated or linked, the famous press expression, linked to eight murders. What reason would I have had to believe that the things that were alleged Richardson had done, ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: So, despite ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... were, in fact, true?

MR JORDI: So, despite the fact that he himself had claimed in his own amnesty application that he had committed numerous murders, you still had confidence in him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not shown the amnesty application.

MR JORDI: You said you knew about it in September 1997.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: A reference ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: Mr Jordi.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... was made to it here.

DR BORAINE: Hold a minute, please. Mr Jordi, please do not interrupt the witness. I know you are pressured for time, but give Mrs Mandela an opportunity to reply and if you could just conduct it a little more friendly, please.

MR JORDI: All right. I beg your pardon, Mr Commissioner. Sorry, Madam, have you finished?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not even know what you were saying there, Mr Chairman ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Well, you said, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... you were rattling so many things that ...

MR JORDI: All right. You said that you knew of his amnesty application, which ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not shown the amnesty application ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Mr Commissioner, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... will you ask the ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... by this forum.

MR JORDI: ... witness not to interrupt me, please?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Oh, I thought you have finished.

DR BORAINE: What is the expression, goose for the gander or whatever it is, let us both try and help each other. Okay, let us go.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I thought I was helping him.

MR JORDI: Yes, it was, I could not remember the phrase. Now, when did you know that Mr Richardson was convicted and sentenced to death for the murder of Stompie Sepei? When did you know that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: When he was sentenced?

MR JORDI: Yes, when he was sentenced. So, that was in 19 ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What year was that, 19 ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: 91?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: Or thereabouts.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Ja.

MR JORDI: So, quite a few years ago you knew that he had been convicted, beyond a reasonable doubt, of having committed the murder of Stompie Sepei, a 14 year old boy, which he has now admitted to. So, the conviction must have been a correct conviction. Do you agree with me?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I do.

MR JORDI: It was a just and proper conviction. Is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, if he killed Stompie.

MR JORDI: And you admit that he did kill Stompie?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: Right. And you knew that in ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: On his own admission.

MR JORDI: And you knew that in 1991 that he had been convicted of the murder of Stompie?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: Yet, until yesterday, you had confidence in Mr Jerry Richardson?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In relation to him being an informer and all the other additional murders.

MR JORDI: So, in respect of some aspects you had confidence and in respect of other aspects he was just a murderer of a child? Is that what you are saying?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The evidence which was led here was new to me ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: But ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... and it did not mean because he was convicted of killing Stompie, I lost all confidence in him.

MR JORDI: You say the evidence was new to you. You knew he was convicted ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: About the others.

MR JORDI: ... in 1991 of ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: I will not warn both of you again. Please, please give each other a chance to finish, both you Sir and you Madam. Thank you very much.

MR JORDI: I just want to note that I think I was interrupted there, so I do not think the warning should be directed at me.

DR BORAINE: I think you are both doing very well, but now you will stop it and carry on.

MR JORDI: I just want to note again that it is not on new evidence that is being presented that we suddenly know Jerry Richardson murdered Stompie Sepei. We knew that in 1991, you must have had suspicions about that quite a long time before he was convicted and you knew about his amnesty application in September 1997. Yet, you say, you said you had complete confidence in him. In other words, you had complete confidence, I put it to you, you said that you had complete confidence in him and that you must have known that he was a murderer when you had that confidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: For your information, I have complete confidence in myself and I was convicted of kidnapping, a crime I did not commit.

MR JORDI: Well, we will come to that later. Let us just discuss the case of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala. You have said already today that you accept that Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala had disappeared off the face of the earth. Am I correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, it was what was alleged.

MR JORDI: And you have heard the evidence of Mr Nicodemus Sono when he says that he saw you on the 13th of November 1988, you were in the company of his son, who was in a beaten condition, you refused to allow his son to return to him, the father, and that he has not seen his son since. You heard that evidence.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard that evidence and I disputed it.

MR JORDI: Yes. Well, the result would be that you would be liable to prosecution for various serious crimes if you did admit it and you would probably have to plead ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are most welcome ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: ... guilty, so ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... to proceed with any action ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: I expect you to ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... if you so wish.

MR JORDI: ... deny it. Okay, then you heard the evidence of Mrs Shabalala who said that on the 14th of November her son said that he was not going to stand by while Lolo Sono had gone off to your house to try and prove his innocence. He, Sibuniso Shabalala, would go there too, to your house, to try and assist Mr Lolo Sono to prove his innocence. You have heard that evidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard that evidence, I am not omnipotent, I would not have known what actually took place in Mrs Shabalala's mind.

MR JORDI: Okay, and you have also heard the evidence of Mrs Shabalala that after her son went to her house, went to your house, her son phoned her, a day or two later, and that during the course of the conversation, which was terminated during the course of it, he said that he and Lolo Sono were at some place. You heard that? Yes or no?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard that.

MR JORDI: Ja. So, we know, if we accept the evidence of Mr Sono and Mrs Shabalala, that their children disappeared and that they must have been alive sometime after they disappeared because of the phone call and I put it to you that this fits in with the evidence of Mr Jerry Richardson when he says that after he was released from custody on or about the 24th of November 1988, the children were in your custody, tied up in your garage in an assaulted condition. What do you say about that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is a preposterous suggestion.

MR JORDI: Yes, you had total ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was one of his hallucinations.

MR JORDI: Yes, you had total confidence in Mr Jerry Richardson until yesterday, now you are suddenly rejecting his evidence. All of a sudden.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not suddenly rejecting evidence from Jerry Richardson.

MR JORDI: Tell me.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You saw Jerry Richardson here, he made a spectacle of himself.

MR JORDI: Yes, and ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: And anyone who believes in the evidence led by Jerry Richardson, I have a serious problem with.

MR JORDI: Yes, my point exactly. You were prepared to believe Mr Jerry Richardson until yesterday, despite the kind of person he is. He gave a magnificent performance in the witness box and he is a convicted murderer and you knew that, any way.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I saw his performance here ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... and I saw that no one, in any ones right mind, would have further confidence in him.

MR JORDI: That is right. I take it he has not suddenly turned mad? He must have been like that for some time? You knew Jerry Richardson, was he like this since you knew him or has he suddenly turned strange?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not think you are correct in asking me for that opinion, I would not have operated with Jerry Richardson if he was the spectacle he was here yesterday.

MR JORDI: But you operated, you were prepared to have complete confidence in him when he was a convicted murderer?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At the time there was absolutely nothing wrong with Jerry Richardson ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Yet, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... he had committed a criminal act, like we have criminals all over this country, holding very senior positions in Parliament.

MR JORDI: Yes, that is part of the problem, but they are not murderers of children. At least they are not, they have not killed a 14 year old.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Then I am not ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Do you know them ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... South African.

MR JORDI: I am being interrupted again ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If you are ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: ... Mr Chairman.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... saying ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: Mr Jordi, I have held my tongue whilst you were interrupting Mrs Mandela on several occasions. This is the last time I am giving the warning to both of you. Please reduce the heat and you have two more minutes and then you are over.

MR JORDI: Then I am over for Mr Sono. I have then got to move on to the other families.

DR BORAINE: Yes, that is why I am saying get a move on.

MR JORDI: Then Mr Michael Siyakamela, he is the brother of your daughter's child. Am I right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

I just want to finish up the question you raised before the Deputy-Chairperson interrupted us. You said at least they are not murderers of children, then you are not South African. Mr de Klerk ordered the killing of little children in Umtata simply because he believed they were PAC operatives ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: You have got.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... children who were studying during the night were shot at in the early hours of the morning. Let us not make statements like that. They are irresponsible ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: This, excuse me, would you please warn the witness to stop grand-standing. I have only got two minutes and she is taking up my time with a lecture to me.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am answering you.

DR BORAINE: Mrs Mandela, please. Can I just remind both of you, order please. Can I just remind both of you that we are not dealing with trifling matters, we are talking about very, very serious issues of allegations of murder, including children. Now, let us get on with it, ask the questions and move on.

MR JORDI: Well, let us get to the next issue. Michael Siyakamela, he is the brother of your daughter's father, I beg your pardon. He is the brother of the child of your, he ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Can I help you? He is the, can I help you?

MR JORDI: Yes, please do.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He is the brother to Zinzi's eldest daughter.

MR JORDI: In other words, he is one ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: (...Indistinct).

MR JORDI: ... Zinzi's children? He is the brother of the father of Zinzi's child?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: Right. Is he insane or given to hallucinations or given to making absurd statements? You agree he is not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He is not insane.

MR JORDI: He is not, he is not insane, he is not given to making, to hallucinations or making absurd statements?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: Right. Now, he made a statement to Mr Dempsey which was confirmed in a statement to Adv van Vuuren, an officer of the Court, to the effect that you were seen in the company of Lolo Sono in a beaten condition, and I need not say, in circumstances exactly as described by Mr Nicodemus Sono. What do you have to say about his statement?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If he made such a statement, I can imagine how much he must have been tortured. You are not listening.

MR JORDI: Yes, he may have made an initial statement to Mr Dempsey and who knows in what circumstances that was extracted, but if ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I can imagine.

MR JORDI: Yes, but in subsequent, in, subsequently he made a statement to the, to an officer of the Court, Adv van Vuuren. He then made a similar statement to Mr Pigou, the other day, certainly that could not have been under duress, he is a TRC official. He also made a similar statement to Director Morobe, who was a former Umkhonto weSizwe intelligence officer and I doubt that that was made under duress. So, he has repeated this statement on numerous occasions and he is indirectly related to your own family. What do you have to say about his statement which fits very nicely with the evidence of Nicodemus Sono and Jerry Richardson?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I cannot account for statements made under those circumstances. As I said, those statements you allege were made or rather this particular statement was made by Siyakamela, I have no idea, ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: All right. I just want ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... save to say that people were tortured to make certain statements and evidence was led from this forum here, to the effect that some of the witnesses were, in fact, persuaded by officials from here. That evidence was led here.

MR JORDI: Okay, we agree. Then I want to just note that there have been allegations that you have tampered with Mr Siyakamela, that Mr Dempsey noted that the Sono docket, which has conveniently gone missing, amounted to a prima facie case against you for kidnapping, possibly murder, possibly assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm, that there was a statement by Adv Klaas von Lieres in the newspaper on the second of December 1997 to the effect that he declined to prosecute you in the Sono case, because of a political decision you made, that Mr Gift Ntombeni described a situation where he was assaulted and then held in your premises for four days in similar circumstances to that alleged by Jerry Richardson in the case of Lolo Sono, that you have been found guilty as an accessory to kidnapping by the highest court in the land and that you were well represented in that case and ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: Mr Jordi, just get to your point please, it is a very long statement.

MR JORDI: I am just trying to summarise (...indistinct).

DR BORAINE: Yes, thank you.

MR JORDI: (...Indistinct) time is running out. And then that you also chose to exercise the right to silence. What do you have to say about these aspects of the case against you for the, at very least, kidnapping of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I hope I am not really expected to respond to those ramblings. If you want to suggest that I had access to documents held by van Lieres and that court file disappear and I had access to that type of situation, then, of course, there is something very seriously wrong with your reading of that.

MR JORDI: So, my description of a prima facie case against you for kidnapping of Lolo Sono is not taken seriously by you. You say it is just a bunch of rambled statements? Now, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are rambling, because what on earth would I have to do with the disappearing of files in van Lieres' desk? How on earth can I have access to police files when, to this day, I am under surveillance?

MR JORDI: One last question.

DR BORAINE: One last question, Mr Jordi.

MR JORDI: In the interview with NBS News on the first of February 1989, which has been referred to already, you, the following is set out,

"Why then are people like Desmond Tutu taking shots at you through the football team saying that it should be disbanded?",

and you reply,

"I am quite surprised at him, because he is well aware of the situation back at home. I understand he made the statement overseas. Firstly, Desmond Tutu knows that I have no bodyguards, I do not need bodyguards, I do not need to be protected from my people.".

Did you say that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: You did?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible I said that.

MR JORDI: And then you have already agreed that you instructed your attorney, Seriti, Mbundla and Partners, to write this letter dated the 24th of May 1995 to the Commissioner of Police and I just want to read to you out of that letter. There it says,

"That in respect of the Dlamini and Mbatha allegations, the investigation into Dr Asvat, that it is a murder investigation against our client and her former bodyguards."

These two statements, both of which you have acknowledged as yours, are mutually contradictory and cannot be reconciled and I want to put it to you that you are prepared to say and do anything that suits you from moment to moment.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What cannot be ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: What do you have to say?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... reconciled? What cannot be reconciled. Just read that again.

MR JORDI: Let me just read it again. I read to you from the NBS interview of the first of February 1989, which you have already acknowledged is ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I understand the first one.

MR JORDI: Right.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Can you read the second one?

MR JORDI: And that is to the effect that you do not find it necessary to have bodyguards. That is on the first of February 1989. Now, we remember that Dr Asvat was killed, I think, on the 27th of January 1989, right. So, the interview was after the murder of Dr Asvat. Now, the investigation, this letter refers to an investigation being conducted by the police into the murder of Dr Asvat and here you say,

"... that it is a murder investigation against our client ...",

in other words, you,

"... and your former bodyguards.",

to paraphrase the letter.

Here you say that they were your former bodyguards, here you say you do not have bodyguards and I put that those statements are mutually contradictory and that you are prepared to say and do anything that suits you from moment to moment. What do you have to say?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is ludicrous.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are distorting facts, you are quoting that letter totally out of ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: .... context. I will let my lawyer ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chair.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... respond.

DR BORAINE: Mr Semenya.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is really a suggestion. MR SEMENYA: Chair.

DR BORAINE: You are interrupting your client, please continue.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, I think we need to contextualise the statements. The interview is of first February 1989. The letter relates to bodyguards in 1997. Of course, as a Parliamentarian, she has been placed with security and bodyguards. Now, to say that it is a mutually contradictory and, therefore, must demonstrate that client will admit and not admit certain things when it suits her, not against that background, it would be an unfair statement to make.

DR BORAINE: Mr Jordi.

MR JORDI: Mr Chairman, ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: Briefly.

MR JORDI: Yes, I would like to briefly reply to what Mr Semenya, my learned friend, has said. He says that this letter relates to bodyguards that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela had in 1997. Well, first of all, the letter was written in 1995. So, he is mistaken on that aspect and, secondly, this letter refers to the murder investigation conducted into the death of the late Dr Asvat, which, the death took place on the first, I mean, on the 27th of January 1989. So, the letter, to put it into context, this letter refers to her former bodyguards being involved in a murder investigation in respect of an incident which occurred on the 27th of January 1989. So, it is referring to her former bodyguards of 1989, not of 1997, as my learned colleague has said. My learned colleague is clearly mistaken.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Does that complete your ...

MR JORDI: Well, unless my learned friend has something else to say, I think I should now shut up shop.

DR BORAINE: Good. Well, he is shaking his head and thank you very much indeed. I think ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Thank you Mr Chairman and I want to thank Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. Thank you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Thank you Sir.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Well now. So, I would like to have an indication of how many more have still got questions. One, two, three. Yes, all right, you will appreciate that there are three of you, there is also the panel, Mr Semenya, yes, Piers. So, please, be as brief as you can. Who is going first? Ms Hassen.

MS HASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair. Just to put your mind at east, I do not intend dealing with the issues exhausted by my learned colleagues. I will just put to the witness my client's version and just deal with certain aspects related thereto.

Just to identify myself, Hasiena Hassen. I act, I am the representative of Charles Zwane, also known as Bobo.

Madam, Charles Zwane said that he was present at the first meeting when the idea of the Mandela United Football Club was introduced. He further advised that you were assisting the club with the provisions of uniforms and such. Did you assist the club in any other way?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I did.

MS HASSEN: Can you explain ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If I ... (intervention).

MS HASSEN: ... further?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... understood the question. Did you ask if I assisted the club with uniforms? There is a bit of noise, I am sorry.

MS HASSEN: All right. I did say, yes, you assisted the club with the provisions of uniforms, those ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MS HASSEN: ... are my clients instructions. What I need to know, did you assist the club in other way?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If?

MS HASSEN: Did you assist the club in any other way?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The club?

MS HASSEN: Yes, the Mandela Football Club.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I assisted them with the uniforms only.

MS HASSEN: Was that your only assistance?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MS HASSEN: May I ask where you obtained the funds to purchase such uniforms?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I must have obtained the funds from sources who use to assist us during those underground days.

MS HASSEN: Thank you. In your statement to the TRC you said that Bobo, who is also known as Charles Zwane, lived in your house. Charles denies that he lived in your house, but admits to visiting your house as he was Sis Thembu Buthulezi's friend. Can you give us the correct version now?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was, in fact, in and out and if he did not live permanently there, he would be quite correct, because sometimes he would have put up with the other boys.

MS HASSEN: All right, I just wish to, I just wish now to put it to you that Charles denies emphatically ever staying overnight at your place.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The version he gives must be the correct one.

MS HASSEN: Thank you. Do you know if Bobo was a MK cadre?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I subsequently learnt he had been recruited by one of the cadres.

MS HASSEN: Do you know if Bobo was a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not to my knowledge.

MS HASSEN: Thank you. Charles said that or Bobo said that he received training in the use of an AK-47 by Oupa Seheri in Zinzi's bedroom at your house. Was this a common practice?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What?

MS HASSEN: Was this a common practice?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, not at all, not to my knowledge. I learnt of those details here, in fact.

MS HASSEN: So, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not think they came out even in his trial, to my recollection.

MS HASSEN: All right. So, in other words, are you going to confirm that MK cadres were never trained at your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No MK cadres trained in my house. That would have been grossly irresponsible, at least to my knowledge.

MS HASSEN: Thank you. Charles further stated that Oupa Seheri was assisted by members of the Mandela United Football Club to retrieve Charles' scorpion stolen at a shebeen and that you were present at the house before they left. Were you aware of this at the time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, no, I was not aware of their activities. I was aware of the fact that Thembiso was using my car, a question which has just arisen here.

MS HASSEN: Okay. So, you did not try to elicit why so many young men jumped into vehicles and then moved off from your house, including Sis Thembo and my client, Bobo?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had no such information that many young men jumped into my car. My car was in Thembiso's possession.

MS HASSEN: All right. Charles Zwane denies ever having bombed the Chili's home. He denies that he killed Finkie Msome and he states that he confessed to this and to other murders only because he was tortured. Did you believe Charles when he said that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Did I?

MS HASSEN: Did you believe Charles when he said that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am sorry, I do not get the last part.

MS HASSEN: All right. Did you believe Charles when he said that he was tortured to confess to all these, this arson, to these murders? In fact, there were nine murders.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Absolutely, I believed that and I saw him breaking down here.

MS HASSEN: I could not help notice that you broke down as well.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was very deeply hurt by that, because I know Charles. At least, what I knew of him, I did not think he was capable of nine killings.

MS HASSEN: Yes, thank you. In his confession, furthermore, Charles is alleged to have said that there was a decision to attack the Chili household as a result of the death of a Mandela United Football Club member, Maxwell Madondo. Do you know anything of this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was a very cruel thing to say. I know absolutely nothing about that. I know about the death of Madondo. To this day I do not know the actual truth and reason why that child, who had gone to school, was killed on his way back from school.

MS HASSEN: All right. In cross-examination with Mr Vally today, you said that you were associated with the burning of Mrs Chili's house in the media. Why do you think this was so, especially since my client was convicted for this crime?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I honestly cannot understand why Bobo was convicted of that crime and how could I be associated with the burning of Dudu Chili's house. As I stated here, I have absolutely nothing against Dudu Chili, I would have had no reason whatsoever to send anybody to do that. I was as disgusted and hurt as she was when her house was burnt. I was (...indistinct), because I had gone through a similar experience.

MS HASSEN: Thank you. I put it to you that the possible reason for this could be, because there were so many members of the Mandela United Football Club present at her house before, just before the burning and that this football club was associated with you, at least, their activities were, because you ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Where ... (intervention).

MS HASSEN: ... assisted in their formation.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Sadly, I really would not deny or accept that, because I really do not know why that happened, save what is subsequently heard, that there were disputes between the youths who were in my premises and those at Daliwonga and I do not know why they picked on Bobo.

DR BORAINE: Ms Hassen, you have one more minute.

MS HASSEN: My last submission to you, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I am trying to grapple with the evidence provided here today. Your house was a shelter for everybody, especially for displaced young men, who came to you looking for schooling, for help, for assistance from running away from this, from the special branch, you were the mother of the nation, you were the guardian of the youth, you were aware of the notorious activities of the members of the club even after it was disbanded, yet you did nothing to stop this. I put it to you that you, if anybody at all, at that time could stop the activities of these young man, it would have been you. What do you say to this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I could not have stopped activities outside of my house which I had no knowledge of. The team was disbanded and the youth continued wearing the uniforms. Perhaps my hindsight now is that it might have been at the, an idea to have taken those uniforms and if they had not continued using those uniforms, there may not have been the perceptions which subsequently were all over.

MS HASSEN: Thank you Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. I just want to say to you again that they were staying at your house, most of them who stayed at your house were convicted of all these offences and that. Surely, you could have addressed them whilst they were at your house after having knowledge of these activities.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Which ones actually were convicted in my premises and continued staying in my premises? MS HASSEN: Take my client, for instance, Bobo.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You yourself have said he dispels he has never stayed at my house, but he was in and out. You are contradicting yourself, Madam.

MS HASSEN: I agree with you, Mrs ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: Order. That is totally unnecessary, please let us retain the dignity of this hearing. You have already asked your last question. Please do not push your luck.

MS HASSEN: All right, thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

MS HASSEN: Thanks.

DR BORAINE: Ms Sita.

MS SITA: I am Kalpana Sita representing Mr John Morgan. Madam, I will confine my cross-examination only where it relates to my client, so I will not be that long.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: And I have a problem hearing you properly.

MS SITA: I said that I am only going to confine to, my cross-examination to Mr, where it relates to my client, Mr Morgan.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: All right.

MS SITA: Madam, do you know Maxwell Madondo?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Do I?

MS SITA: Do you know Maxwell Madondo?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I do.

MS SITA: Was he a MK cadre?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Oh, no, he was a young school boy who came with a group of youngsters from Natal.

MS SITA: Did he ever stay at your house, Ma'am?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he did stay at my house.

MS SITA: Did you see the body of Maxwell Madondo at the scene after his murder?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not.

MS SITA: Well, Mr Morgan testified that he personally drove you to the scene where the body of Maxwell Madondo was lying. Mr Gift Ntomeni also confirmed this when he testified that he saw you and Mr Morgan at the scene. What is your comment, Ma'am?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is not true.

MS SITA: I did, I put it to you, Madam, that your statement that you were nowhere the scene is not true.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I have just told you my view. I was not there, I was not on the scene.

MS SITA: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, did you at any stage tell any, some, anybody or refer to Stompie Sepei as a spy?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Can you bring your thing nearer. I have a problem hearing you properly.

MS SITA: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, did you at any stage tell anybody or refer to Stompie Sepei as a spy?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I did not.

MS SITA: Okay. Mr Morgan testified that the day after the assault on Stompie and the others, he saw Stompie. He says, I quote,

"He could hardly, he ...",

that is he is referring to Stompie,

"... could hardly pick up his own coffee. Winnie was there. She said, John, help that umkwembe.",

which means spy. What is your response Madam?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is a pathetic fabrication from your client, I really regard is senile now.

MS SITA: Mrs Mandela, did Dr Asvat at any stage come to your house after the assaults were inflicted on the youths, but before the death of Stompie Sepei?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Did?

MS SITA: Did Dr Asvat at any time come to your house after the assaults were inflicted on the youth, but before the death of Stompie Sepei?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, not to my recollection.

MS SITA: My client, again, Mr Morgan, testified that he saw Dr Asvat at your house after the assaults were inflicted on the youth. He heard Dr Asvat tell you that Stompie should be taken to hospital. Ms Falati also stated that Dr Asvat was there. She testified that she particularly remembered this, because Dr Asvat did not greet her as he walked out on his way out. Mr Morgan also heard from (...indistinct) the following day that Dr Asvat had been there and that he wanted to take Stompie straight to hospital. What is your comment, Ma'am?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Of course, as you know now, it is a pathetic fabrication on the part of your client. Not even the boys themselves, not even Mekgwe and the other youth confirmed that they were seen by any doctor. That is his hallucination.

MS SITA: Mr Morgan did not testify that Dr Asvat saw any of the boys, Ma'am, he just testified that he saw Dr Asvat at your house.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Dr Asvat did not come to my house on that day.

MS SITA: Did you at any time instruct Mr Morgan to take Jerry Richardson and the other boys to the Methodist manse?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not instruct your client to take Falati and Richardson to the manse.

MS SITA: Mr Morgan stated again that you personally instructed him to take Richardson and the other boys to the Methodist manse in the minibus, in the bus.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As I have stated here, he is totally confused.

MS SITA: Madam, do you still maintain that you were not present when the assaults on the youth took place?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not.

MS SITA: I have difficulty with your answer for the following reason, Madam. Not only did Mr Morgan and the others who testified here say that you were present, but Mr Morgan even remembered a tiny detail which may be insignificant to you, but may give us indication that you were there. He stated that he refused to let you sit on his chair and that one of the youth then brought a chair for you. Mr Richardson also confirmed this, Madam. What is your response?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was the evidence led by those youngsters in the trial and I am not surprised that Morgan would make completely fabricating stories of that sort.

MS SITA: Madam, why would Mr Morgan fabricate all this evidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Why did he fabricate this evidence he led here, totally against what he said in the trial?

MS SITA: You heard him, he said he lied to protect you, Madam.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He is the last person to have had the capacity to protect me.

MS SITA: Madam, you stated earlier, that you do not need protection from a person of Mr Morgan's calibre, yet you found it fit that he could be your driver at times, Madam.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At the time, I can assure you, he was not as senile as he is now.

DR BORAINE: Ms Sita, are you finished?

MS SITA: Sir, there is just one more question.

You have stated that you do not, in your evidence in chief today you stated that you do not attach any importance to information received from Mr John Morgan. Is that correct, Madam?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Now?

MS SITA: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, now

MS SITA: Yet you see it fit to attach importance to the fact when he states that when the boys came out of the Methodist manse, they came out freely, voluntarily, toyi-toying.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have explained that ... (intervention).

MS SITA: So, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... at the time he was all right.

MS SITA: So, you see fit for the Commission to attach importance to that statement made by him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: We stated before you here that he now does everything for money and that money had to be put on the table for him to say whatever you wanted him to say.

MS SITA: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Indeed, Madam.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Please, do not comment on the witness, the legal representative. Could you state your name and who you represent please?

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Yes, certainly. My name is Nicole Copping-Pervaas. I represent Mr Mbatha.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, please go ahead.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Good afternoon Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Good afternoon, Ma'am.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: I have just got a few questions. I should not be too long with you. The first question I want to ask you is when did you first hear of or rather hear about Mr Mbatha?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard about that Mbatha when we received information which was given to my attorneys office, that they had been assaulted.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Was that this letter that you wrote, your attorneys wrote on the 24th of May?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Referring to that letter, it says, who, sorry, just to go back, who actually gave you or your attorneys that information that he had been assaulted?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Goodness me, I would not know how they gather their intelligence information.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: So, somehow, it was just gathered and it came to your attention? You do not know by whom?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am sure if you are South African you know that information gathering from intelligence is a certain privilege of certain people.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Because according to my client, he said to me that when he was in jail he was in isolation and he was only guarded by White prison warders and he cannot understand how that information could have leaked out to you or to your attorneys.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I really would not know. I am so sorry I cannot help you in that regard.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Okay. I just want to read some statements I have regarding Katiza Cebekhulu. The first statement I will read to you is the statement made by Major Moodley when he went to the United Kingdom to interview Mr Cebekhulu. In the statement he says, I am reading paragraph 4.1, halfway in that paragraph it says,

"Morgan and Winnie went, when two persons unknown to him came into the house and spoke to Winnie. He was then told by Winnie to take the two people and show them Dr Asvat's house. He then accompanied these to Black males in their motor car and pointed out the house where Dr Asvat was. They then brought him back to Winnie's house and left him there and went away."

That is just the first statement. This statement is then Mr Cebekhulu's statement and he says in paragraph 11, "Mrs ...", sorry,

"He took two young men, two young men came to see Mrs Mandela in her home one evening. Mrs Mandela had called me and instructed me to drive with them and show them where Dr Asvat's surgery was and in which street. I showed them the surgery."

The next sentence says,

"I had not seen these men in Mrs Mandela's house before, nor had I met them in any other place though neither of them had any family or other connection with myself of which I was aware."

And then just the third statement is from Mr Tulani, Dlamini Tulani, ag, Tulani Dlamini, sorry, and he says here,

"She called a child and said that the child must call Katiza. The child went out and a while later Katiza came into the room. Winnie then spoke to him and said to him to show these people the person and the place in Rockville."

All these statements that I have read, basically, they all confirm one thing, that neither Mr Dlamini nor Mr Mbatha nor Mr Cebekhulu ever knew each other before you asked Mr Cebekhulu to show these people, Mr Dlamini and Mr Mbatha, where Dr Asvat's surgery was. What is your comment there?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am astounded at such rich imagination.

DR BORAINE: Mrs Mandela, just please answer the question ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Such fabrication ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: ... please.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Such fabrications are absolutely unbelievable. I do not know what you are talking about. None of those things took place whatsoever. You heard your clients, rather the evidence of Cebekhulu, which was contradicted by Richardson when he claimed that I had stabbed Stompie and, honestly, really, for me to have to sit here and answer those ridiculous allegations, it is a source of great pain to me.

DR BORAINE: Mrs Mandela, can I just say that each lawyer has been instructed, as yours was. She is acting on instructions, she is not putting the questions just because she wants to. So, please, if you could just answer the question without making all the comments. You have answered the question, next question please.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: My next question is, is that, yes, I did hear the evidence that Mr Richardson said yesterday that he denies that you stabbed Stompie, but the one thing that is very clear to me and, maybe I am misunderstanding it and you can clear it up for me, is that according to my client, Mr Dlamini, and Mr Cebekhulu, they never knew each other. So, here were three people that never ever met each other before and never ever saw each other again until they actually came to this TRC. They never ever saw each other. They were all in prison, in different places all over the world and, yet, they all have the exact same story and the exact same statement. Now, if this is a fabrication, I do not understand how they all can have the exact same ludicrous fabrication.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I do not know whether we can be assisted by Mr Vally and them. I seem to recall that at a certain point these people were in the same cells, at a certain point.

MR PIGOU: Yes, that has been alleged that Mbatha and Dlamini and Cebekhulu were in the same cells by, I think, Senior Superintendent H T Moodley, but I must point out, he has never actually proved that. He has never actually provided cell registers and that information has not been made available to the Commission.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I am sorry ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Well, did, the question must be, with respect, Chairperson, if the TRC proves the converse, I mean, to treat the evidence of witnesses as suspiciously as this, it is hardly fair even by them, with respect.

DR BORAINE: Can you restate your question, please, and Mrs Mandela, if you can answer it as briefly as you can.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: All I want to know is your opinion in that, I hope I can restate it, because it just seems to me that here were three people who claimed that they had never ever seen each other until you asked Mr Cebekhulu to point, to go take them to Dr Asvat's room. After that they never ever saw each other again until, according to my client, they saw each other and they realised only here that that, in fact, was the young man who showed them where the surgery was. Before that they had never ever seen each other and yet we have three, four separate statements all saying the exact same thing.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I really have no idea how they managed to weave that web of such statements.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know what you are talking about, honestly.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: I have no further questions, thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. That concludes the questions from legal representatives. We now have questions from the panel and I am going to ask Dr Mgojo if he has a question to put to Mrs Mandela.

DR MGOJO Mr Deputy-Chairperson, I just have only one question, because we are pressed by time. I am going to avoid the synoptic intervention, that is to say to repeat the same things which we have had, but I am going to ask a question which was asked by Mr Sanjay, Sanjay, do not know, Makanjee, when he was using the methodology which is used by lawyers, I am a lay person and a Minister.

The question is, Mama Madikizela-Mandela, it is a very easy question, you may decide to answer it, you may not decide to answer it, it is a very easy question. Do you have any informed opinion, I did not say knowledge, I say any informed opinion as to why some people, including those who have been your close associates, have suddenly distanced themselves from you by making a litany of serious allegations against you, the first portion of the question, and how do you feel about this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Thank you Dada. May I request that I answer that question at the end of this hearing?

CHAIRPERSON: I gather you are taking over now. Well, yes, I mean, as long as you will remember that she owes you an answer. Yasmin Sooka.

MS SOOKA: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, before I begin, I think I want to preface what I am going to say with just a comment that I think all of us here remember what you have done, we appreciate where you come from and for many of us you were, in fact, one of the heroines of the struggle, but I sat through eight days of evidence and I think today, for me, was particularly painful and that is because I have heard the evidence and, from it, I think, some of the lines I can actually draw from the evidence is that, through your own sense of social responsibility, you gave shelter to homeless and, of course, particularly displaced youth, a football club was formed and by your own version, you, in fact, disbanded the football club on the instructions of your then husband. The youths, however, continued to wear the uniform and, of course, basked in the aura of the Mandela name and the perception out there, therefore, in the community, was that the football club had not been disbanded. From your own evidence, they accompanied you wearing football uniforms, even to the funeral of Dr Asvat in 1989 and I have heard your explanation today that those were the best clothes that they owned.

Some of the youngsters who have come to give evidence did not stay with you, but many of them frequented the property and I concede that even those who did not stay with you, that there may be, amongst them, those who have been convicted of criminal activity. Of course, we have amnesty applications for some of them, but when the Crisis Committee wrote the statement that they did and when they made their submission in paragraph 19 they say that they insisted on removing what they considered a bush around you, namely the Mandela United Football Club and I think that one can assume that the credibility of those persons, even then, was not questioned and they sought to inform you and warn you that you were surrounding yourself with persons of questionable character. In fact, you yourself, during these hearings, have labelled the people who were associated with you quite closely, you have said that their evidence was ludicrous and ridiculous, but the suggestion of the Committee, in their own words, was met with a negative, a firm negative response from both yourself and the club members and in terms of their own report, despite their communications, despite the communication of the MDM and Oliver Tambo, you, in fact, refused to disassociate yourself from the club, but in today's hearing you say, also, that you are surprised at the fact that the father of one of the victims, Mr Sono, has joined, and I think you ruthlessly called it the charade that is taking place. You call the report of the Crisis Committee exaggerated and distorted, you implied today that the MDM members who testified have an agenda, they had an agenda then and they have an agenda now and, in fact, in the Section 29 inquiry, you referred to their reports as Stratcom operations. Now, I have a difficulty with that and I really have tried to understand why are you seeking to discredit people who I think honestly tried to come and give evidence. I think for me that is a problem.

The second question I want to put to you is that however you perceive the situation, these were youngsters who congregated around you. You, in fact, took them along with you to many functions. Do you not accept that you have to bear some kind of responsibility for their actions. They, in fact, regarded you as their leader, their head of household and my question is what did you, in fact, do to control them or to make them accountable, because if your evidence is to be believed today, then everybody else who testified at this hearing is lying and, I am sorry, I have a problem, because I would like to believe that part of what we are trying to do is to establish accountability. Now, you can say I am a non-South African, because that is what you said to me in the Section 29 hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Order. Excuse me, excuse me, please, please we are not at a show, it is not a show, I wish it were. It is not a show and I am quite insistent, I give permission for clapping. Please, I do ask that we do not, because that influences all sorts of things. It can even be intimidatory and I do not want that. I do not want these hearings to be, to degenerate please. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know if I will be able to do justice to the desiccation just delivered. I may not be able to contain everything you have said. Yes, it is true that most of the witnesses who testified here were lying. As far as I am concerned Richardson was lying. As far as I am concerned the two youths who claim that I gave them money to kill Dr Asvat were lying. As far as I am concerned Morgan's ludicrous statements made before you here are a pack of lies. I can go on and on and on. You are saying I am seeking to discredit people who were out to assist me. They testified here, they drew reports, sent them to Lusaka without my knowledge, sent people to Victor Verster without my knowledge and the reports that were sent to Victor Verster were of a nature which affected the family to this day. Reports which were based on untested information.

You are saying people who wanted to assist me, are being discredited here. In that regard I should imagine you are referring to the MDM statement by Adzar Cachalia and Murphy Morobe, who made a recommendation here.

Adzar Cachalia who made that recommendation in his very last sentence, delivering that kind of sensational statement before this forum, you had a problem with that when I regarded such people who issued such statements, during those times. You regard me as discrediting them. I am an ordinary human being, they did things to me which were not acceptable. It is not true that I totally refused to have the boys removed from my premises. I have led evidence here to the effect that even though suggestions were made, that the boys must be placed elsewhere, that did not actually happen. That process did not actually happen. It was not as if they came with accommodation arrangements, which I totally rejected.

You are talking about those painful times, you are talking about a society which was abnormal at the time, and things happened to those of us who were in the front line in the struggle. Yes, I protected those children and continued doing so. I let them wear those uniforms, yes, with hindsight, I should have taken the uniforms.

But my instinct of protecting the children during those times, when many South Africans were sitting comfortable in their houses whilst we fought a just struggle, it was during those times that these things happened. You have a problem because the things, the fabrications that have been made here, are regarded by me as lies. Yes, they are.

Richardson could not be speaking the truth, you know that. Morgan couldn't possibly be speaking the truth. Those boys couldn't possibly be speaking the truth that I hired them to kill a close friend of mine. I regard it as very tragic that you have to this day those perceptions about why certain people, some of them who were close to me, distanced themselves in certain circumstances. I hope to deal with that question later on. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS SOOKA: Mrs Mandela, I think there was a last part of my question which was the question of accountability and I am wondering if you would address that please.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have stated here that I will respond to father Mgojo at the end of this, and that will include that.

CHAIRPERSON: Alex Boraine?

DR BORAINE: Thank you Chairperson. I wonder if I could put a very short statement to you. We have heard a great deal about the Mandela United Football Club, as you know for the last nine days. If I were to describe that having listened to all the evidence that this was a very good idea, that went very badly wrong, how would you respond?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Second is, and I am being as brief as I can because I know what is going to happen next to me here, the Chairman is going to rule me out of order, you mentioned that it was Ms Falati who went to the manse to fetch the youngsters, let's call them youngsters for a moment. Under whose authority would she have done that, I mean would she have taken it upon herself, surely she would have had to get permission seeing she was taking them to your property?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, she did bring them on her own authority as I have stated.

DR BORAINE: And once you realised that they were there, and that already there was some concern because they were staying in one place as refugees in the Methodist manse, were taken out, brought to your place, you discovered it when you came back, why didn't you take them back?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think I have explained that on my return from Brandfort I was unwell, and she gave me a report to the effect that these youths were there and they would be there, I think if I recollect actually properly, until Father Paul Verryn returned from holiday. Something to that effect, but it was a question of placing them there whilst he was away.

DR BORAINE: Now, there was a lot of concern at the time and we won't go over all the very many people, the Crisis Committee and others who came and Dr Motlana, the Church leaders and so on expressing concern and you were here when we were putting questions to them and saying for example why didn't you ask to see the children, why didn't you examine the children or whatever. Wouldn't it have been easier if from the very first moment you said now listen, I can understand your concern, you say you care for these kids, come let you meet them and then if you have got accommodation for them, take them away.

They seemed to be of the opinion that (a), they couldn't see them, and second that you were reluctant to let them go, is that true?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, that was a wrong impression Deputy Chairman.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Now what has been said on many occasions and I have myself said, during these hearings that there have been lies and half lies and truths and half truths and extraordinary to try and sort out who is telling the truth and who is not and you please accept my word, that we are trying very hard to get to the truth.

A number of allegations were made that people were actually assaulted, young people, on your property. Not in your house, but on your property, is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I heard evidence here that for instance Zinzi is supposed to have inscribed ANC letters on some youngster's chest and of course in addition to that are the allegations of the three boys.

DR BORAINE: And some of those allegations are that you participated in that. Let's leave that for a moment, let me ask you. You are a very, I am not asking what you think, I am saying to you that I think you are a very powerful charismatic person, a leader.

I really don't think that is in dispute, but these were allegations made by let's take Kenny, just one example, who escapes, the word used by your daughter allegedly, and has a lot of injuries. He is taken to a Doctor, that is confirmed and I think it was in the trial, it was stated.

How was it possible for some of these things to take place when they were really in the back of your own house. I mean, if they took place, they would hear them scream, wouldn't you go and say what the hell is going on here, what is happening here, you know? That is what is confusing me, try and help me there.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If you recall Deputy Chairman, I don't even remember Kgase properly, when I returned from Brandfort, I am not sure exactly when he escaped, so I didn't know Kgase. I know the two boys I subsequently saw later on.

I was not there when this is supposed to have taken place on that particular day. About what is alleged to have taken place at my old house, where Zinzi is supposed to have whipped and I think someone also said I joined in that type of thing, that did not happen. It is a total fabrication.

DR BORAINE: Right, thank you. This is my last couple of very small points. First, and I don't want to refer back to former trials, but we have had to read everything we possibly could surrounding this hearing.

Judge O'Dowson, you will recall is the Judge, he made a finding and he stated and I would really like you to comment on his statement, and I will read it to you:

Mrs Mandela punched and slapped each one of them, referring to the four youngsters and called for a sjambok to be brought to her. Each of the four was beaten by Mrs Mandela. You must remember hearing that then, what do you say about that now against the background of so many of these allegations?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In the Stompie trial?

DR BORAINE: That is right, yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is why the same Judge, Judge (indistinct) who delivered a very vicious judgement considered that it was true that I was not there.

DR BORAINE: Stompie has become almost a symbol in South Africa. You, Richardson says and many of them concur that he was beaten far more viciously than anyone else and the allegation was that it was because he was thought to be an informer, and we all know now that he died a very cruel death and you yourself have acknowledged your own sorrow about that.

Again, how was it possible for this youngster to be so badly assaulted and then finally killed within your own property and then taken from your property according to Richardson, and killed without you knowing it?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I have stated here sir, that I did not believe that Stompie was an informer in the first place and I do not believe that was the reason Richardson killed that boy. I believe the truth still has to be sought from Richardson why he would kill a 13 year old boy on the allegations that he was an informer.

Supposing he was truly that informer, what information could a 13 year old gather of what security risk could that child have been to anyone?

DR BORAINE: The assault on Stompie took place in those back rooms?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: So I understand.

DR BORAINE: And he was there for a number of days and by a range of witnesses, he was looking very, very ill and badly assaulted, his head was swollen, his hands, he couldn't hold the cup and so on. Was this never brought to your attention that he was there in the back of your house, in that condition?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not at all sir.

DR BORAINE: Okay, the final question, similar to Ms Sooka, the one overwhelming problem that I have about this hearing is that there seems to be either there is a conspiracy theory or even a conspiracy directed against you, by a wide range of people. Not only the youngsters that came here and Mr Morgan and the whole succession of people, Richardson, but also fairly significant people in the community.

The Crisis Committee, the MDM, the church leaders, the ANC statement, all concerned about the behaviour and activities and criminal activities of the Club, whether they were playing soccer throughout or not. It doesn't seem to matter.

How do you explain this overarching allegation, condemnation of yourself in relation to the Club and the feeling that you ought to have been able to stop it, how do you explain that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: May I suggest that we deal with that aspect in the same context with the response to Rev Mgojo?

DR BORAINE: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chairman. I guess I should have a sense of what it should feel like to be falsely implicated in atrocities and then the consequently I use that as my point of departure to assess all the evidence to date.

And I think Dr Boraine has painted what I would have put to you as the best case scenario. That your perception is that you are a victim of a huge plot by the government security forces because on their own evidence, they came here and they admitted having infiltrated informers into your household, that they organised a huge campaign to discredit you and your organisation and possibly your husband as he then was.

But in the midst of all this (indistinct) web of deceit, treachery and betrayal you are possibly all by yourself, harassed by the State machinery and not having any benefit of political support from structures that were in existence at that time and you would like us to understand that to be the necessary backdrop against which all these things were happening, that if there is any error it was an error of judgement on your part in not having been able to realise the type of people who were around you, and that the tragedies that followed were consequence thereof.

That is where I want to depart from because for me it is the best case scenario. Of course there is a worse case scenario and I think my colleagues have endeavoured to say the worse case scenario where we say why do all these people say all of these things, and you have indicated that you are going to address that in your reply to Dr Mgojo and therefore to all of us.

I am just worried about one aspect and that is the death of Stompie. We have two versions. I want to tell you now that my impressions which are prima facie impressions are that when you look at the evidence of Katiza Cebekhulu, when it stands alone, it suffers from a number of deficiencies. I wouldn't go so far as to call it as lunatic statements, but then you hold that view.

But just on the quality level, one is able to say it has certain deficiencies. He is the only witness who claims to have been an eyewitness to the stabbing of Stompie, as he puts it. There is of course the evidence of Jerry Richardson.

But Katiza Cebekhuluís evidence stands alongside the evidence of John Morgan. And his evidence seems to suggest that there was a time when he was ordered to beat this dog and go and dispose of it and of course he says the dog was Stompie and where he saw the dog to be laying, he seems to suggest that it was bleeding from the neck.

There is then the Pathologist's evidence which seems to say his findings are inconsistent with the slaughtering of a sheep, which would then lead me where I have to conclude that there is a consistency between what Cebekhulu says and Morgan says and the suggestion by the Pathologist.

Now that is an impression that I want to take into account. I also take into account Richardson's evidence. Now, I know that your lawyer will address, because sometimes this is a matter of law, but if you were as a person who has heard all of these things, were to endeavour to persuade me, what would you say in order that I should accept Richardson's account of how Stompie died and that I should reject what Cebekhulu says, what John Morgan says and the inference I can draw from the Pathologist's report?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not quite sure whether you want me to comment sir, about the nature of the death. I am sorry I am not sure of the exact question.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, I think what I would like you to say is to give me your own sense of if I said to you look, I want to believe you that you didn't do this, but I am confronted by these three aspects. I am confronted by Cebekhulu's evidence, by Morgan's evidence and by the Pathologist's evidence, what can you say to me in order that I should reject that evidence and accept the fact that you say you didn't do it and the fact that Richardson says he did it?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I honestly would imagine that if Richardson confesses to that murder, I wouldn't understand why he would confess to that if he did not do it. I personally believe that he committed that heinous crime and I personally believe the circumstances which led to that child's death as told by Richardson, are true.

MR NTSEBEZA: One last question. In the Section 29 hearing, on page 68 thereof, you indicated that you established after the so-called Stompie affair, that the media had amongst its fraternity, reporters who were working for the system at the time.

And you indicated that your subsequent information throughout the years had been that the first reporters who broke the so-called story, the Stompie affair, and you mentioned Thandi Makubule and Thamin Qwanash, that they had been part of the informers who were planted in the media. Now I wasn't here but I believe that you mentioned also Norma Venda in that context. I just want to confirm whether there was information that identified those persons, Thandi Makubule, Thamin Qwanash and Norma Venda, (indistinct), as informers who were planted in the media?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, sir. I had no direct evidence. I had no access to STRATCOM information, that was just information at the time, in the same fashion they spread information about people like myself.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would it be that these media spies or media informers, are the people that in your view, Vic McPherson referred to when he testified here the other day, that he had in his list as manager of STRATCOM certain reporters who he called media contacts?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Sir, I really wouldn't confirm that their names are on that list. I was merely giving information of the time, at the time.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you. Just for the record, to the extent that Vic McPherson sent a list to us which was listing the names of what he called media contacts, friendly journalists, I just want to place on the record that neither Thandi Makubule nor Thamin Qwanash, nor Norma Venda (indistinct) are part of that list. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Hlengiwe?

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Chairperson. I will, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I will repeat a question which I raised during the in camera Section 29 inquiries as to, it is an important question in the sense that when we evaluate the proceedings of these days, we are likely to go back to it.

It is important for us to know as to why you didn't think of applying for amnesty having been actively involved politically and having worked mainly with young people, one of the questions which was put to you earlier on was around slogans like together hand in hand, with our boxes of matches, we will liberate this country, that even political utterances like that, could in one or another have influence on the behaviour of young people, so we are still interested in knowing your understanding of the amnesty process and your reluctance to make use of this in terms of giving us the perspective of what was happening at the time.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Thank you Madam. I explained at the time I think when you put that question across, comrade Thabo Mbeki raised the issue with me. And I explained to him ... (tape ends) ...

MR VALLY: Mr Chairman, as a last statement, we want to place it categorically on record, that when Mr Semenya's client was challenged on the two issues of accusing a witness of the Truth Commission of being an informer, she referred it to her lawyer, her lawyer has refused to respond to the matter, raising rules of ethics. I am not sure which rules of ethics applies to a straight forward withdrawal of a serious allegation.

Secondly I want to place it on record that the slander against the Truth Commission that we paid money to a witness to give evidence here has not been in any way backed up by Mr Semenya or his client. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I want to recall Mrs Sisulu on just one matter. Will you please come Mrs Sisulu. Mrs Sisulu, good afternoon. We are sorry that this has to happen, half sorry.

ALBERTINA SISULU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Sisulu in the course of your evidence, you were shown a card or a copy of a card, and you said here that the writing at the top of that card was not your handwriting.

MS SISULU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We have since had as you probably heard this morning, the counsel for the Asvat family confirming that they are satisfied that that was not your handwriting.

MS SISULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, in a documentary you were shown a card and said then that that was your handwriting, the same card. Now, clearly it must be that both can't be right what you said on the video, which is your version? What you said in the Commission is your version?

MS SISULU: What I said in the Commission is my version.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And what you said in the documentary was a mistake?

MS SISULU: That might have been a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chairperson. Mama Sisulu, this is once again, a very happy moment for me.

You and I know that we go back a long way. Rev Tetiwe, your late brother was a friend of my father and every time he went to Xala, he stayed with us. And whenever he came to Cape Town, I stayed with your brother. You therefore must realise how pained I was when I met what was to me a weakening in consistency.

I am the first person to want to say publicly here, that you have vindicated yourself and that in my eyes, you remain not only the friend of my family, but the person that you have been, an icon of moral rectitude and all that we had been fighting for.

I am pleased for you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I am pleased and I don't mind if certain people in the audience would be willing to respond in the way that I have not allowed them to respond. Thank you Mama, you may stand down.

MS SISULU: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I want to finish very quickly. This is the last in a sense of our victim survivor hearings and apart from the State Security Counsel hearings and the amnesty hearings, we will not be doing any more of this public work.

I want to express a very warm thanks to this centre, I want to say a very big thank you to the media, thank you for giving us the coverage that we have had. We want to commend especially speaking of South African media, the TV Special Report and the radio team who have done splendidly.

We thank the print media and we are glad for all the foreign journalists who have come so that the world can know of the process here. And we hope that they might actually want perhaps to make contributions to the President's Fund from which reparations will be made.

Thank you to the members of the legal profession who have represented the witnesses. I want to say thank you to all the witnesses, to their families and to their relatives. We have already expressed our appreciation to them when they came here.

Thank you to the caterers, thank you to the briefers, thank you to the translators, to the technical staff who have enabled all of this to happen. And I want to say a very big thank you to my colleagues, the Commissioners and Committee members, but especially also to the staff persons, Patrick (indistinct) and all of his staff, he has given me names, I won't run through those names here, but also a big thank you to Hanif Vally and the legal team, to our media people, John Allan and all of those people, you have done marvellously.

Thank you to the police and all who have been responsible for the security.

I just want to say that we have had a very close relationship with the Mandela's. We live in the same street in what is sometimes called Beverley Hills, our children went to the same school in Swaziland. They call me uncle and so on.

Mrs Madikizela-Mandela is godmother to one of our grandchildren, who was baptised on the Sunday of Madiba's release. When I bishop of Lesotho I used to visit Mrs Madikizela-Mandela well maybe once or twice in Brandfort. I have immense admiration for her and there is no question at all that she was a tremendous stalwart of our struggle, an icon of liberation who was banned, harassed, under surveillance, banished, with her husband away serving a life sentence, she had to bring up two young girls.

We can never forget her outstanding contribution to the struggle and her indomitable spirit. Everything was done to seek to break that spirit and she was an incredible inspiration to many and her contribution to the struggle can never be again said, she was the most apt representative for her husband.

We struggled to establish a new, a different dispensation characterised by new morality, where integrity, truthfulness, (indistinct), accountability etc, were the order of the day. We say that crime currently, domestic violence, not caring for our environment, corruption, selfishness etc, which are prevalent are there because we need the antidote of a new moral order, a respect for authority etc.

Some of us were devastated, it also found it exhilarating what happened during this hearing. Devastated by the performance of some eminent leaders of the struggle. The moral (indistinct) that came from them, was unexpected and shattering. There were splendid exceptions who stood out in stark contrast, Adzar Cachalia, Murphy Morobe, the two Methodist bishops, Sydney Mufamadi.

And at the time I was deeply, deeply distressed after Mrs Sisulu's testimony and I can say that I am now in a sense over the moon over what has happened to rehabilitate someone I hold in the highest possible regard. There have been extraordinarily moving moments such as Bishop Verryn's (indistinct) to Mrs Seipei and then to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

We need to demonstrate that qualitatively this new dispensation is different, qualitatively morally, that we need to stand up to be counted for goodness, for truth, for compassion and not (indistinct) to the powerful.

I acknowledge Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's role in the history of our struggle and yet one has to say that something went wrong, horribly, badly wrong. What, I don't know.

None of us can ever be able to predict for you have to keep saying, there but for the grace of God, go I. Something wrong, such that many leaders had to be involved in seeking to deal with a particular problem.

It was marvellous seeing Winnie as she walked hand in hand with her husband then, leaving the Victor Verster prison. It was wonderful seeing them walk together on the lawn of Bishop's Court on the day after his release. I was one of the church leaders who was asked to come and speak to you.

I came all the way from Cape Town. I don't know that we will ever know all the details of what it is that went wrong. Many, many love you. Many, many say you should have been where you ought to be, the first lady of this country. What was I going to say to you had we had this meeting as a church leader, because when I came and we tried to have the meeting, it was impossible to have the meeting for you were not able to see us, you were studying you said at Wits.

This is what I would have said to you, this is what I want to say to you. I speak to you as someone who loves you very deeply. Who loves your family very deeply. I would have said to you, let us have a public meeting. And at that public meeting for you to stand up and say there are things that went wrong, there are things that went wrong and I don't know why they went wrong.

There are people out there who want to embrace you. I still embrace you because I love you and I love you very deeply. There are many out there who would have wanted to do so if you were able to bring yourself to say something went wrong.

Because all these leaders couldn't have been so agitated and say I am sorry. I am sorry for my part in what went wrong and I believe we are incredible people. Many would have rushed out in their eagerness to forgive and to embrace you.

I beg you, I beg you, I beg you please - I have not made any particular finding from what has happened here. I speak as someone who has lived in this community. You are a great person and you don't know how your greatness would be enhanced if you were to say sorry, things went wrong, forgive me. I beg you.

MS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Thank you very much and I would like to thank the panellist and I would like to thank you comrade Ntsebeza Sibya, I thank you all.

Save to say thank you very much for your wonderful, wise words and that is the father I have always known in you. I am hoping it is still the same. I will take this opportunity to say to the family of Dr Asvat, how deeply sorry I am.

To Stompie's mother, how deeply sorry I am. I have said so to her before a few years back, when the heat was very hot. I am saying it is true, things went horribly wrong. I fully agree with that and for that part of those painful years when things went horribly wrong and we were aware of the fact that there were factors that led to that, for that I am deeply sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We adjourn.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS.

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