PRETORIA July 15 1999 - SAPA
"He (Le Roux) was a big man and a general in the security branch. He must have foreseen what could happen," Nortje told the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Pretoria.
Nortje is seeking amnesty for the abduction, torture and murder of Maponya in Swaziland in September 1985.
Maponya was abducted in Krugersdorp and taken to Vlakplaas where he was interrogated and assaulted on the whereabouts of his brother, Oderile, an Umkhonto we Sizwe commander who was responsible for bombings in the Pretoria and Vaal Triangle areas.
Nortje said he told Le Roux during a meeting in Krugersdorp that Maponya might die because of his assault during interrogation.
He said Le Roux was also aware that it would be very difficult to set Maponya free after he had been tortured.
Earlier this week, former Vlakplaas commander Eugene de Kock told the amnesty committee that Le Roux ordered Maponya's death.
"He (Le Roux) told me he never wants to see this man (Maponya) in Krugersdorp again," De Kock said while testifying in his amnesty application.
He said he understood this to mean that Maponya must be eliminated.
Nortje said on Thursday he did not hear Le Roux telling De Kock that he never wanted to see Maponya again, but conceded later in the day that he could not remember exactly what was said when Le Roux and De Kock met at Krugersdorp.
He said that although Le Roux could have foreseen that Maponya would be the murdered, it was De Kock who ordered the murder after Maponya was interrogated to protect the identities of Vlakplaas members he had seen.
The day after Maponya was beaten up, De Kock phoned former Piet Retief security police commander, Freek Pienaar. It was decided that Pienaar would show De Kock where Maponya could be killed in Swaziland.
Nortje said he, De Kock, and security policemen Eugene Fourie and David van der Walt, took Maponya to Swaziland.
Before they drove to the Swaziland, they picked up Pienaar at Piet Retief.
De Kock denied that Pienaar went to the border with them, and said they only went to his house to get a garden fork and spade to dig a grave for Maponya.
Nortje said that when they got to the border the plan had been that he would shoot Maponya.
He said he ordered Maponya to get on his knees and then hit him over the head with an Uzi machine gun.
Nortje told the amnesty committee he tried to shoot Maponya, but the gun jammed.
"De Kock took a spade and hit him over the head two or three times," he said.
Nortje shot Maponya through the head with a 9mm pistol because, he said, Maponya was still showing signs of life.
De Kock denied this during his amnesty testimony. He told the TRC that he hit Maponya twice over the head only after Nortje had shot him dead.
"It was standard practice to make sure a person was dead after they were killed," he said.
"De Kock's version is not correct," Nortje said on Thursday.
He said De Kock ordered him and Fourie to remove Maponya's clothes, cover his body with leaves and branches, and make sure that he was dead.
Nortje said that while he was waiting for Maponya to die, he felt a large cut on Maponya's head due to De Kock hitting him over the head with a spade.
"The slash was so big that I could fit my middle finger in it. His brains were coming out," he said.
Nortje said that once the murder was completed they went back to Piet Retief to drop Pienaar off and then returned to Pretoria.
Nortje received immunity from prosecution in terms of section 204 of the Criminal Procedures Act when he testified in De Kock's criminal trial a few years ago.
Nortje now works for the National Intelligence Agency.
Ten people have applied for amnesty for the incident. Nortje's cross-examination continues on Friday.